[Weapon] - Lasso/Whip Sword Family: Lasher
Sun, 07/12/2015 - 12:26
Whips! Lots of people love them. They have been suggested before. Even casually by me. Here's a mechanic, inspired by whips used in film entertainment. Disarm and capture.
With this new type of sword, let's just call it a Lasher, your knight will be able to "lasso" a single nonheavy, nonboss, nondrone, nonturret enemy target and lead them around like a puppy on a leash. This has important effects in many situations. The general idea is to disarm your enemy, like in the movies! But no swinging from things across the clockworks, that just silly. The usage of whips on the big screen is usually quite showy and rather unrealistic, but the emphasis is on skill, as will be the use of whip items in Spiral Knights. They are best used strategically and are not simple DPS devices.
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Attacks:
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Some swipes generate appropriate cracking noises. If your knight walks with this weapon out, it remains coiled up in the hand until your knight attacks. As you charge up, the knight spins the weapon above the head lasso style, as if preparing to aim the loop. This makes sense!
Regular : like a cutter. Slightly longer range, slightly slower attack speed, okay damage far outclassed by other blades of course. It's weak, but not entirely useless. Whip it good!
Charge: the "lasso mechanics" in addition to some relatively meaningless damage. When the lasso hits, it deals some minor impact damage, capable of breaking blocks like other charge attacks.
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Mechanics:
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- Emphasis on single. If you cast into a crowd, you'll only capture one monster out of that cluster, whichever one is struck first/closest. So you can't "aim over heads" and yank a mender out of a group, as nice as that would be. Shield bump stuff out of the way and then do that.
- The enemy you lasso cannot attack or use its abilities. It will wander around in a radius around your knight, limited by the lasso's length. This is basically a representation of total aggro loss.
- The 5* lasso has a range of 5 tiles or so. If your knight moves farther away than that, the enemy is forced to follow you. Puppy on a leash. You don't "control" the enemy beyond this - like having it attack other monsters - that would be a different sort of mechanic and tbh wouldn't make much sense unless it was also a mind control lasso. Lol. Would you suddenly attack your friends if you were tied up by the enemy? You couldn't even if you wanted to because you are tied up.
- Due to logical yet somewhat silly system of honor (we do not torture hostages and like to maintain barganing power etc.), a knight is unable to damage a captured enemy - even NPCs won't target a captured enemy. The enemy will be somewhat "safe," unless it happens to be near a friendly fire/hazard, like a trojan slam or a blast block.
- Shield bashing a captured enemy will not damage it, but it will be released. This is in place to balance out "trolling" attempts -like capturing an enemy and not letting it go ever, wasting ppls' time - but it also lends itself to other forms of "messing around." The real fix to such behavior is to not play with people who like to do this sort of thing, so they are forced to be alone with themselves and maybe look in the mirror and wonder..."am I the one with a problem? Maybe..."
- You cannot attack while you have a captured enemy. You will release the enemy if you switch weapons, dash, shield bash, attack with the lasso again, take any sort of damage, use a pickup, command a battle sprite, or suffer defeat. If the whip you are using is not super effective against the monster type, then the whip will randomly release it after 5-10 seconds (with normal always being 15 seconds). If it is super effective, then there is no timer.
- The regular attacks of this sword, while not dealing much damage, tend to "disarm" enemies. For example, there is a good chance that you will knock off a gremlin Mortafire's gear with the regular attacks, while the charge attack has a 100% chance to. It will strike through shields to deal pathetic damage, useful only for distraction/emphasizing the idea of the sword. Mecha knight shields will tend to fail as well. This disarming behavior will only trigger if the whip is super effective against the target, otherwise it just damages what you hit, but the normal whip always has a very low chance to trigger these effects in general. Much lower than just bringing the right tool for the job. Right! Damage type! I keep going on about that!
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Crafting:
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I'm thinking an entire family, starting at the 3* level and branching out. I would have it start earlier? But since it's such a mechanic-based item, I figure having it start later, after a player is somewhat used to the game, would be better. Like the vortex bombs.
3* - Lasher (normal, looks like a rope with a braided string of prismatic energy through it). Charge Range: 3 tiles
4* - Lively Lasher (normal, looks like a rope with a few braided strings of prismatic energy through it). Charge Range: 4 tiles.
5* options (all have a 5 tile charge range):
Normal: Lordly Lasso
Looks like a classic western rope/leather-hide strap or whatever floats your boat. A longer, more robust version of the preceding 4*. Excellent for cowboy cosplay with your sunset gear. The central tassel, tassel tips, and energy weave are prismatic, as are parts of the handle.
Elemental: "Prehensive Plasma"
You guessed it! A long string of energy like a lightsaber. It is, of course, prismatic. Alternative appearance: Extension Cord.
Piercing: "Thorn Thrasher"
A long, nasty, dark black (somewhat green) vine covered in sharb barbs and large thorns. It pulses with a prismatic life energy woven through its length. It sounds somewhat similar to a chromalisk tongue when the charge is released. Man, that's pretty weird. Your knight used Vine Whip. It's super effective!
Shadow: "Scraping Scourge"
A long whip composed of ghostly, slightly transparent grey shadowsteel chain links (very light, being ghostly and all) that ends in a tassle of prismatic fiendish tails. These devils made daring deals with others, then they met you. Now they follow your orders and have synced up to your color. Is that really a good thing? *creepy.* Inspired somewhat by the Thraben Valiant magic card.
Man, it sure is easy finding examples of whips. Maybe that's cause they're totally awesome and people love them. To commemorate their release, we could have silly whip song related hats like these.
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Usage:
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What I would use this for:
Cowboy cosplay. Wait, you're saying I can't ride a trojan horse? It's too "heavy" for a lasso?
Pretending I have a pet wolver and go for a walk in the Den. I mean park. Yes.
Capturing respawning healer units, such as the silkwing in rabid snarb, or menders in GA, and preventing that nonsense. While this also prevents me from attacking, it should help the squad significantly, and takes some skill to maintain. Seraphynx's third ability would probably help quite a lot, just cast it before you charge the whip.
Capturing respawing things in general. Disabling for a good while is better than defeating in many situations.
Controlling those awful Surging Bombies in the right-hand fight of the second floor of Ghosts in the Machine. Get out of that wire tangle out of range of the totem. Right now. Stop ignoring my shield bumps. Whip! Get them out! I don't FEEL like toting a vortex just for this!
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Thoughts:
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If people like this general idea, I might propose a gun that shoots a net and gradually shrinks, drawing enemies together - like a ranged vortex bomb with less damage, smaller grab radius, but more range and versatility. Now we can have a full weapon group of "things that move enemies around as their most important mechanic." Whiplasso swords, Vortex Bombs, and net guns. Weeeeee!
Alternatively, ditch the whole weapon aspect and just make these a pickup that act pretty much like the normal whip described above in all tiers, minus the regular attacks and dmg. This balances the usage of the mechanic somewhat, while not taking up a weapon slot. It's not out of this world to think that a knight can't find a bit of rope/chain/duct tape lying around the very messy clockworks and use it like this.
Sun, 07/12/2015 - 14:06
#2
Fehzor
@Fehzor: yes, I actually linked to that thread at the top right away as part of the original post, and one other :P
I agree about having swords that are more...brains than brawn. Though it makes sense for swords to be simple (nothing too complicated about being Mr. StabHappy), they don't have to be :3
Whip it good.
Sun, 07/12/2015 - 18:42
#3
lol...
Love the idea. I would suggest that instead of a cutter style charge attack, why not put in this kind of Charge Attack/Normal attack. I am just tired of old mechanics being reused on NEW weapons. We need new mechanics to go along with it.
Sun, 07/12/2015 - 18:57
#4
Blandaxt
Cutter style regular attack. Charge attack is completely new "lasso" mechanic.
Mon, 07/13/2015 - 09:38
#5
Hmmm..
@Dracora-Speaking:
Your right that the charge attack is new, but the regular attack should also be new. Something like mixing together the rocket hammer dash and rapier together. Like launching a straight whip attack that goes 3 tiles long on the first combo, then spin flip into the air while jumping forward and spinning the whip around the body for a saw like triple attack (similar to the rocket hammer triple hit dash) for the second combo, for a dropdown whip smack attack going 3 - 4 tiles long on the third combo that will leave the player doing an animation of pulling the whip back into his hands. This animation similar to the autogun charge will leave the player vulnerable for an attack. The spin flip forward jump will not automatically do the smash attack unless the player presses the attack button one more time.
New weapons should have completely new mechanics. Not reused ones. That would make any consecutive weapon that comes after it function the same as the first making it a repetative copy and paste new lines of different damage flavors of the same old mechanic. New weapons that do not derrive from an existing weapon family line should be completely new in the sense that they do not have the same feeling as existing weapons.
Perfect example is that when the rocket hammer came out, it had a similar feeling to the toik. But because of the dash incorperated into the regular attack and the new form of charge attack, it felt like a completely new weapon.
This new whip should have the same or greater impact that it is a completely new weapon.
Mon, 07/13/2015 - 10:30
#6
Blandaxt
I prefer to mix and match, depending on the item. It's potentially less coding effort for the devs, and meshes well with existing content.
Tue, 07/14/2015 - 14:58
#7
Eh
I've been on the idea that we could get a callahan animation and have a two-hit, very long range whip attack. Would root you in place for the duration of the attack, and be a single-target sort of thing.
Cutter attacks are alright, but for sure have an increase in range and decrease in damage.
Also, would these whips have any sort of status on them? I feel like normal could have stun, shadow freeze, elemental shock, and.. Pierce can be whatever, maybe stun as well? Magnus-line did it...
Other than those regards, idea is pretty solid! However, how would it factor into PvP? Would your captured player be constrained within a 5-tile radius? Would they be freed if you walk into a base? Could they struggle to break free (since there's no effective damage type, I would assume so). Could the other team free them by attacking the binds or the player? Would pacified players be able to capture a point? Can you capture a shielding guardian?
This has a very strong focus on PvE, however it would be interesting on its own in PvP as well. You could actually give each class a natural resistance to this sort of thing, striker having -8 (i.e., 30 seconds to 1 minute capture timeframe), recons have +2 (i.e. 10 second bind time), and guardians have +8 (i.e. 4 second bind time, or something). Makes playing striker with a Pokemon master on the other team a problem because they can disarm you for a good 8th of the game!
Would definitely make players fear a lasso player. 10 seconds is a respawn, so being lasso'd as a striker is technically a fate worse than death.
Tue, 07/14/2015 - 15:48
#8
Oh right, pvp
I wouldn't put status on these. Their lasso/disarm effects are sort of an extreme, specialized status all their own.
In general, a whip user in pvp would be at significant risk against a coordinated team, because they would not be able to attack if holding a "hostage" either.
Players that are captured will be able to capture if the lasso user is oblivious enough to let them near a point. So you and your lasso target would cause problems for each other if trying to capture a point.
I suppose a player could have a chance (or just 100%) to escape the lasso with the dash, or if another player attacks their general hitbox area (somewhat like freeze) with a charge attack. If you lasso a player that's got a charge built up already, as soon as the lasso hits, the charge could be released, and that would have a decent chance of freeing the lasso target as well. For example, if you tried to tie up someone holding a bomb, causing them to drop it, and then it exploded, I don't think your rope's ability to lasso-tame that bomb would fair too well. But then we could talk about the logistics of friendly fire and blahblah. Wouldn't the bomb hurt the user? In sk, no. Shush. At least you made them lose the charge, possibly before they were intending to use it. Just make sure you're not in the way when you cast, obviously.
Walking past a barrier (yours or your target's) would likely remove the lasso effect. Let's make this apply to pve as well.
For the sake of consistency, I'd say that the lasso could disable a guardian, but there's so many problems with balance and that pvp class already that I just don't think it would be okay to do. So let's say the shield stays up, but you can haul that player off of wherever they've planted themselves ignoring movement speed penalties, and as a trade off, the guardian won't be taking any damage (remember knights can't target something caught in a lasso), nor would anyone in the guardian's shell. I hope you have a plan, capturing such a target! OR...Guardians could be considered "heavies" like trojans, and the lasso would simply not work, as in PvE.
Individualized class resistances would be a nice touch.
Or we could simply have the lasso effects not work in pvp. The whips would simply nullify a player's ability to attack with w/e weapon they had out if they're hit with its charge for 2-5 seconds or so (depending on the resistance of the player to the whip), with a small chance for this to occur with the regular attack, depending on the whip type and how much resistance to that damage type the target has. It would be like a less annoying curse! That would just be its effect on players, like how certain status conditions have specific effects on certain enemies (shock on quicksilvers, for example). If whips are a type of pickup (a possibility mentioned in the OP), then PvP isn't much of an issue at all.
I don't play Lockdown much, for various reasons. So let me know if these thoughts are completely silly.
Tue, 07/14/2015 - 19:27
#9
Hmm
Yeah, thanks for the thoughts.
My thoughts were that if a team was uncoordinated and only strikers, the other team could literally just lasso the entire other team and have their own sla- er... hostages, yeah... and thus prevent any capturing from them. Would be a huge counter to strikers, seeing as the HP one isn't working out too well.
Hostage being able to capture was just my thought in that you could lasso someone, capture the point, then get out of there. If they lasso'd player can still capture it would prove difficult, but the way you have the game set up is that players and their target are disabled by lassos, so I suppose that works.
The dash idea is great. I would say make the lasso permanent (outside of other sources), but you get an attempted-escape dash every 7 seconds. Perhaps strikers have a 20% chance to escape, recons 60%, guardians 80%? I would also say 3 hits to the lasso'd target to free them. Dropping your charge on capture if interesting too, as you might be able to free yourself immediately.
Would your target walking into their base free their bindings? They can't get too far... So you can just pull them out.
On a similar note, how about enemies who are over gaps or walls that we can attack over? You can attack over them, how will the lasso work there? Pull them over the gap, teleport the target beside you like a friendly NPC?
Making the lasso not work in PvP sort of takes the joy out of a lasso. I mean, if it has unique behaviors in the clockworks, making it just a "cutter" in PvP doesn't really work too well. Taking enemies out of play would need to be toyed with, but if one team has even an ounce of teamwork it'll be good. It also can be used to disable spawn-campers so you can actually get out of your base.
Wed, 07/15/2015 - 19:17
#10
:)
Would your target walking into their base free their bindings?
Yes, if you (or your hostage) walks through a forcefield/barrier of any kind, the lasso is lost. I think this mechanic should be part of the PvE behavior as well. If you walk through a barrier. Currently, only glitchtastic scarabs can get through barriers. And warping wolvers in a way (but they can't warp if caught). That I know of. But yeah in PvP, the target would lose the lasso if the lasso user was silly enough to let the hostage in range of safety, as well as the lasso user going through a barrier. I shoulda clarified that in my previous comment :3
Gaps/walls/gate switches/party buttons: yeeeeeeah teleportation. That would be fine. And lag would make that a thing anyway. Harhar. This is sorta like how cartoons just pull stuff out from behind their backs. Just don't think about it.
Thanks all for the feedback and thoughts. :)
Thu, 07/16/2015 - 21:10
#11
...
I'm thinking about two possible variations for this: Chromalisk Tail and Chromalisk Tongue. The tail wouldn't capture for long, but would deal more damage - The tongue would capture for longer, but deal less damage.
Thu, 07/16/2015 - 22:22
#12
Vanaduke-Destroyer
That's potentially reskin territory! But morbidly cute and makes some sense with real life froggy/lizard tongue...function...yeah. ;P
Fri, 07/17/2015 - 14:38
#13
This is what I want
This is what at least want as a part of the lines in the whips, a type of whip-like sword.
Here's some concepts to base them off.
http://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Puzzling+Stone+Sword
Or maybe Renji's Sword from Bleach, I love the detachment and extension of range on the blade and has a whip slash,
MAKE IT CANON.
I suggested something shockingly like this a while ago- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/104548
Mine was more utility based, with little to no ability to deal damage whereas yours is more well rounded. My thought was that we have tons of swords that have damage and some utility but no swords that have tons of utility and little damage.. compared to guns and bombs, which have fairly decent utility-themed options. I could see either of our suggestions making it, if the developers are into the whole whip idea.