Spiral Knights - Compounds.

Compounds.

8 replies [Last post]

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 14:28

Jessecho

I really, really hate Compound levels, and I'm fed up with them constantly getting in my way in Arcade runs. I honestly want to see if you guys at OOO can get through the Stratum 6 versions of these levels without dying fair and square; no staff-exclusive weapons, no unreasonable UVs and no cheats. I would've rather you brought back all of the Starlight Cradle levels and left Sleep un-tweaked than these levels being put in, no matter how annoying Slooms were they can't possibly compare to status Glop Drops and Scarabs, especially when these Compounds show up in the Arcade ALL THE TIME.

Why do I hate these levels? Well most battle-hardened players who do plenty of Arcade runs will know what I'm talking about, but if you don't understand, here's why they are the worst levels in the game:

1. The mobs you fight here are ridiculous. You see, the Clockwork Tunnel levels are fair because they exclude "elite" monsters like Mecha Knights, Gremlin Thwackers and Greavers. Here, anything goes! Poisonous Mecha Knights surrounded by Glop Drops? You got it! Big groups of Greavers accompanied by Silversaps? You got it! Monsters like these shouldn't be thrown in an area that's bursting at the seams with mini monsters that inflict a status.

2. For how hard they are, these levels pay close to nothing. Arenas can be difficult, but they have tons of Treasure Boxes to compensate. Graveyards are a little tricky, but they've got a lot of loot-dropping enemies so you're not completely wasting your time playing them. Compounds are the hardest non-Danger Mission/Shadow Lair levels in the game... and they give you a garbage payoff. On average, I usually find about maybe four prize boxes in a Compound if I'm lucky, and it's not like there are a lot of Crown-heavy enemies.

3. Mini-monsters. Oh, I hate these things so very much. There are so many of them in these levels, there are rooms where they endlessly spawn, they don't drop so much as a single Crown, and they're all more annoying than status Devilites. Glop Drops surround you and make it nearly impossible to escape without getting mauled. Scarabs fly at you and don't leave you alone. Dust Bunnies eat through your shield like it's made of cake. And unless you're in a Ruined Compound level, they all deal a STATUS. These enemies are just sadistic and they're the main thing that make the levels so unfair.

And, I really like the themes of the Compound levels and how they look, don't get me wrong, but I just hate having to play them. So here are some changes I have in mind that could solve the issues I and many people have with the Compounds:

+ Take out Mecha Knights, Greavers and other "elite" monsters, or just make them much less common and separate them from the mini-monsters
+ Nerf the mini-monsters' damage. Their damage output should be proportionate to their size; at the moment, they deal almost as much as a regular monster would
+ Glop Drops stay in their "spiky" form for less time and spend more time in their round form
+ Dust Bunnies attack less often
+ Scarabs stay in their flying phase for less time
+ Mini-monsters all drop a fraction of how many Crowns, Heat and Mats that regular mobs do instead of nothing
+ Just a few more Treasure Boxes, nothing huge but enough so that we get a half-decent payout from these levels

Either that, or just do what you did with Starlight Cradle and remove it, then recycle some of the map layouts for missions or other new Arcade levels that you'll presumably be adding during the Redux. I wouldn't really want that though, because that's the easy way out, but if it really comes to that, I'd rather they just get taken out instead of left in the broken state they're in right now.

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 17:17

Dracora-Speaking

You hit the nail on the head. There have been many complaints about compounds, for all these reasons. This is yet another thread about it (and well said, I must say). OOO really needs to do another poll about compounds. Like a serious, in-game prompted poll. Do y'all despise compounds? :|

I'd be all for making them special areas you only run into in ??? levels. They're weird, interesting landscapes like GYs and TVs. I'd say let's turn them into a heat zone. So each defeated mini monster drops a smidge of heat (respawning or otherwise. Every defeated mini monster. Every. Single. One). This can't be abused with macros easily, as heat caps eventually per item/level, and it would be a ??? floor, so likely difficult to get to. This way, the compound is the Heat/training place, the Treasure Vault is the "mine a bunch of minerals for a good chance of shinies" + boxes place, and graveyards are a "rob these graves for an okay amount of crowns" place. And they'd all be interesting areas. Maybe even a place players TRY to get to instead of avoid.

Why put effort into designing a tileset and then make it the most horrible place in the game? Just seems counterproductive.

Please fix scarabs. They can glitch through forcefields (especially in shadowplay, for some reason) and damage you with their butts even after the visuals of their attack have "finished." Ugh. Bug reported that so many times.

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 17:22

Rhons

Compounds are Tough, Yes, but Some People are Okay with Them

The only problems I completely agree with you are the Elite Monster spawning and the lack of worthwhile treasures. Your suggestion to the Elite Monster spawning I give a (+1).

As for the Treasures, I offer two solutions:

# How about we change those spawned Crowns at the End of the Level to typical Loot Boxes. There are about eight Crown Coins, so it should at least be equal to the average number of boxes anywhere else.

# Replace the Mineral Room with another Loot Room. Devilite Drudgeries, Wolver Dens, and Lichon Lairs have two Loot Rooms (Middle and End of MaP). If we replaced the Middle Room with a Loot Room (scatter the Minerals as well), Compounds would be more worth my time.

As for the swarming enemies, I see how anyone who relies on Swords would face extreme difficulty, but I think I have used other weapon types enough to understand that Compound Swarms are easily taken care of with Handguns or Bombs (latter recommended). Their damage should be nerfed: maybe; however, they are fine with how often they attack.

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 18:28

Blandaxt

agreed!

I completely agree with this idea.

- Lower damage to these mini's similar to the jelly mini's.

- More loot from these levels or at least heat.

- Elite monsters need to be put towards a phase that is more expected. When combine with the mini's there hell. Maybe unleash them before the mini's then the mini's come in after 30 seconds have passed.

- Make it so that the infinite respawn monsters drop heat.

- Give the compound a more unique look with different sort of rubble and decoration and spread about the minerals. No point in having them in one place.

Sun, 07/12/2015 - 19:51

Holy-Nightmare

More CR

The only thing I want is more payout.

All I need to beat compounds is a few trusty bombs and I'm fine.

Scarabs? Meet my VT
Bunnies? I got a Spike shower for you
Glops? I got a VT for that too

Not sure? I got a Nitronome and an Irontech pair that makes mincemeat out of everything

Mon, 07/13/2015 - 05:14

Rectilios

I think compounds are just a waste of time to play, the crown payout is not much and enemies are OP and they also don't have much treasure boxes, most people rush through the ending bit where you have to get 2 keys to open the door, you could easily earn way more loot faster in arcade by doing arena or a aurora isles level or other ones, they could atleast increase the payout and treasure boxes in compounds.

Mon, 07/13/2015 - 08:29

Falminar

Well...

1. +1.
2. -1.
3. -1.
4. --
5. --
6. +1
7. +1

4 and 5 were -- because I still need a few more levels with those.

Still, I'm only in T2. I probably need to get to T3 compounds first.

Tue, 07/14/2015 - 15:27

Fangel

Eh.

You're making compounds out to be the worst thing ever. They really aren't, however you've got to change your playstyle to complete them. With a full team of 4, I can easily get through compounds. Similarly, I can wade through one alone half asleep and watching a video and at most use my ER because I don't want to waste my health capsules and I'm in a fiend/slime shock compound.

However, this is just me, and I understand that.

What compounds lack is boxes. Ever since battle sprites were added, treasure boxes went from "I guess I'll break these" to "I need to break these". Compounds having at most like, 7 boxes (5 from the treasure room, 2 from a puzzle room that no-one seems to know about), is what hurts them the most.

Mini monsters are fine mostly. Lower their damage just slightly (make them deal 80% of their current damage), and fix a few bugs, such as scarabs still dealing damage while they are playing the "falling" animation of their attack.

What I would like to see would be the crowns at the end of the level be turned into treasure boxes, danger rooms be added into compounds (you can have minis in the danger room too! Imagine having a swarm of all three minis closing in on you - would really be an end-game kinda danger room, and on top of that the box payout could be increased past what regular danger rooms give! Would make me seek out compounds more than clockwork tunnels), and add more prize-box-giving puzzles to the levels. I would say you must have either a puzzle or danger room spawned into the level generation of any compound.

Compounds should remain difficult, and have rewards that reflect that. Candlestick keeps are also difficult to many players, however the rewards are fair for the difficulty they give, so you'll rarely see complaints about those levels beyond "they're hard".

Wed, 07/15/2015 - 01:26

Blandaxt

hmm..

I can agree with you there fangel. I can see if the payout was increase, i can see compounds becoming an interesting level. But the ideas suggested such as having every single mini drop heat are good ideas also. Heat has become a minor/underuse thing in sk when forge crystals were introduced. Meaning even if a gear was fully heated, without crystals to level them up, the weapon would stay at the same heat level. Sense there is a cap in heat, having each mini drop a heat bulb is not breaking the game not in the least. There are some other good ideas for propose changes, but my emphasis to replying to your post was that even if we were to just increase the pay on every compound level, it would not fix this broken/ being cheated sort of feeling players get when killed so mercelessly when facing the last room of infinite spawning monsters. Or that empty feeling before reaching the last room where there is not much of a great encounter. Your propose danger room might fix that, but something more then danger rooms could be locked treasure rooms behind an energy door, or maybe something else totally new.

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Compounds.