Working up the tortofists
Sat, 09/12/2015 - 15:29
So I've been playing with the tortofists lately and I've come to the conclusion that these weapons aren't actually that bad. However, there are a lot of moments while using them that will turn people off almost immediately, and over time you come to know what they are more.
- Tortofist range
- Charge attack
- Damage
The tortofists have a pathetic amount of range to their standard shots. The combination of a punch-shoot makes this gun optimal in close ranges right? Wrong. This gun is a single-target gun, but it's still a gun. I would say increasing the bullet range by a single tile would make all the difference in the world for standard use. The bullet oftens falls short right in the face of an enemy.
The charge attack has a problem in that you only hit so many times, then it stops being effective. Everyone knows the problem with invincitinks. However, if you miss a charge enemies will rarely ever actually find a way into the crystals. Many times I have attempted to knock an enemy into the ground crystals after they land, and 3/4 times I shieldbump/knock them back just as the crystals disappear. Having those ground crystals stay around for another second would increase the charge's potency, and with invincitinks still in effect, wouldn't increase damage output to much.
Additionally, enemies will try to walk around tortofist charges. This is neat and all, but enemies don't try to avoid shard bombs or the likes, so it shouldn't be anything different here. Either remove the collision on the crystals or make them act like a low wall that enemies would try to get right up against and attack you from (gremlins in decon zones will attack you over the low-walls).
The gun does a fair amount of damage - if you get every hit in. I would say add a higher knockdown chance on the melee hit and slightly more damage on the bullet (take a bit of damage away from the melee hit to make it do roughly the same damage). This allows you to hit more often. Additionally, give the bullet a larger explosion radius so that it deals damage across more than a single target.
That's about everything I have an issue with. Attack and reload speed is fine, even without boosts. Damage is kind of lackluster but with damage boosts it's competitive. The way I see tortofists right now is something similar to how cutters are viewed - they are lacking just slightly, and a very small push will get them over into a wider used area. Cutters need another half a tile of range, and a tiny boost in damage - additionally they need a piercing variant. Adding damage/ASI boosts make them a powerhouse. Tortofists need another tile of range, longer lasting charge crystals, and stacking the damage more on the bullet. Right now, CTR and damage boosts make them a pretty good weapon, but the standard attacks are lacking and very situational, much like how a cutter's charge attack is very situational.
Mon, 09/14/2015 - 04:09
#2
I like the idea
after using all 4 I find the tortofists to be useful, but with these changes people will finally get off their butts and try them instead of just being "I didn't do well so they suck (aka: I dont have skill so I think its the weapons fault"
@thunder the shards themselves are fine, other than the duration
if they exploded they would only damage once, making the charge deal less damage and not act as the wall it was intended to be
Mon, 09/14/2015 - 05:58
#3
why can't the shard bombs work like a shard minefield
Mon, 09/14/2015 - 08:28
#4
.....
The range is more or less a non issue since damage or range isn't the purpose of the standard attack. The Standard attack is designed to push enemies around, most importantly into the charge attack. I would suggest that knockback be added to the standard bullet as well more bullet speed, something more around the Magnus speed for bullets.
The problem is mostly with the charge attack. Enemies will go around them which drastically cuts down on damage, the shards actually have a pre-code to how they land since the code is similar to the falling fire in the Vanaduke battle. They will land near the target but never directly on top of a target (Enemies may move into the incoming attack and many who have played Vana know that the lava CAN fall directly on you but it is made less likely). The Invincitinks also greatly reduce the damage.
So what would I change?
Faster standard bullet with more knockback
Change how shards are labelled so enemies do not recognize them as an obstacle.
Change the landing pattern of the shards to a set pattern, some kind of shape to maximize their effectiveness. (and thusly can land on enemies)
Add a ground marker of some kind to indicate where shards will land when holding a charge.
Remove the invinciframes.
Lower Tortofist power.
Add Strong shock to charge attack.
Mon, 09/14/2015 - 08:58
#5
I think the weapon is fine if not a bit over powering... It's probably the strongest crowd damager in the game, except for maybe dark retribution. The weak points on the tortofists are there for a reason, and the fact that enemies can't cross it allows for very strategic play, cornering large mobs, blocking corridors, and disorienting crowds while providing a safe spot for your team.
It also has access to seerus and the new gunner armors, which also buff things like blitz needle, iron slug, the drivers and more. These powerful friends allow it to surpass most bombs in terms of utility- imagine if sudaruska shot two valiance bullets instead of swinging, came in all damage types and was classified as a bomb somehow. You'd be able to crush enemies in your own vortex, strafe while shooting.. all without having to sacrifice defenses that easily come from volcanic demo and merc demo. That, is what the tortofists are for gunners.
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 10:30
#6
Not quite
You're making the tortofists out to be something commonly used, however I almost never see anyone bringing a tortofist along to a difficult mission, bringing it along for a clockworks run, or anything of the sort. Right now they're cutter/catalyzer tier.
The guns still have drawbacks with the changes I suggested. You can't switchshoot-strafe them due to the lunge forwards, charge attacks still are viable and deal damage (not infinite amounts either, invincitinks still in play)... But they aren't a gimmick weapon. They aren't a thing you're forced to charge to make worthwhile. Extra tile of bullet range would make a huge difference in making this gun both a weapon to use normally (stand back, attack enemies) or to get out of a panic situation (melee smash + bullet).
Now I know the tortofists are a sword-gun-bomb. What I think is really holding them back is that they're not good enough of a gun to bring along instead of any other gun. With blasters in every damage type now, tortofists only ever outclass the blasters in the piercing section, and that's because it's harder to dodge projectiles after being smacked in the face(also harder to miss enemies when you're in their face, but also easier for them to hit you).
So I think making the projectile deal more damage (potentially move a bit faster too), making the melee smack deal less damage in exchange for more knockdown, and making the charge attack deal damage a bit more if the shards land unfavorably (i.e., enemies don't try to walk around it) would make the tortofists not just worthwhile but even desirable for many circumstances.
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 11:31
#7
just gonna add one thing
tortofists are very powerful items, definitely not even near cutters or catalyzers
the reason no one uses them commonly (well, I do, but thats not the point) is most likely because even being strong, theyre still outclassed by the usual OP stuff most people carry around, so no one finds them worth getting (costs sparks (for most people), cooperation, crowns, and the normal craft, so people usually prefer to get the shields for their unique defenses/bash)
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 11:42
#8
People are largely just not skilled enough to pull them off or just want them to behave like combuster when they're capable of so much more at the price of a much higher learning curve. That, is why you never see them around and it has nothing to do with how good or bad the item is.
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 12:04
#9
riiiiight
yeah the (small) difficulty increase turns people away before the weapons even get a chance, I forgot to mention that
tldr these last few posts: theyre not OP, theyre hard to get, and no one has the patience to learn how they work, the tortofists are great, but theyre not worth getting for most people who want something like "I got this weapon I want it to be easy to immediately kill things with"
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 12:19
#10
.......
It's not that they are hard to use, it's that they aren't reliable.
The standard bullet is kinda small, and the charge attack is programmed so that it may or may not land on top of the enemy.
And of course there is the cost of obtaining one..... lot more people would rather roll the dice on Black Kats or Grind for more proven weapons in Apocrea (And you don't have to pay for these events).
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 14:10
#11
Eh
See I was on the same kinda track with my thoughts, not so much my wording. Catalyzers may be a bit weak, but cutters are heavily overlooked and still extremely powerful in the right hands with the right boosts. Similar situation with tortofists. Catalyzers need more team co-ordination but when they have it they are very powerful.
Running out of things to heat recently, as I've said, I've turned more to tortofists. Piercing one is what I went for first and it's not too bad VS fiends and beasts. Shadow one is iffy but I'm using it primarily on slimes (one I'm heating right now). Elemental is pretty good, but to be honest elemental weapons never really have ever had a "bad" weapon, since the two enemies weak to elemental are slow and health tanky, making tactical weapons easy to work with. Normal will just kinda be underwhelming but work.
The weapon has a learning curve, yes. However, the learning curve is essentially "don't use it like a sword, don't use it as a gun, don't use it as a bomb. Land a charge attack, push enemies into it"... And that's the only viable way to make it work. The different damage types can be adjusted slightly (piercing can take on single targets, elemental can simply spam charge, shadow has more pushy push to it), but in the end their niche is essentially the same as a 5* winmillion.
What I suggest makes it better as a gun, worse as a sword, kinda the same as a bomb, and still the same amount of crowd control and learning curve to make it work. Old tactics still work, but now you can use the weapon as a gun and a mortar instead of just a mortar.
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 16:08
#12
@Holy-Nightmare
I can reliably complete most levels as well as reliably make the charge land where I need it to. The fact that it has a random element to it does not compromise the weapon itself-- blitz needle's normal hits, what many enemies choose to do and whether your hits have a status on them are also random, yet do not compromise many weapons.
@Fangel
Pushing enemies onto it is a waste of time that could be spent charging the next shot. Get them to walk onto it by using it like a gun and a bomb at the same time. It can require a lot of foresight to actually make happen, given the situation and what your party members are up to but generally comes down to shooting into the middle of ten+ enemies, shooting a wall and then running backwards, or shooting an enemy at point blank while it attacks, narrowly dodging the assault.
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 16:14
#13
Somewhat
You see the large enemy-group up happening with constructs, undead, and slimes. You need to be a fair amount away from them to have the initial explosion from landing hit, which deals massive damage.
And how you explain that is what I see as being a problem - it's got the bomb part down, but it's a gun. Reduce the sword, increase the gun, keep the same bomb.
The melee hit has the higher knockback, making the the bullet's followup okay if you get the melee smack in - however this weapon can't decide what it wants to be - is it a gun, a sword, a bomb? Is it for groups, single targets? By being "alright" at most of them, it becomes considerably worse at all of them. You can't use it as a gun - you need both hits in. You can't use it as a sword because it hits very lightly and isn't mobile when shooting. You can sort of use it as a bomb, but it's not reliable.
Instead of trying to make it a bomb with a standard attack, I want it to be a weapon that has a viable standard attack as well. Brandishes have viable charges and standard attacks - as so magnuses and alchemers. Heck, cutters have viable charge and combos, properly timed and all. Tortofists just... Don't really have a use for both charge and standard hits.
The change I want most is for the bullet to travel further by one tile. That's my biggest peeve with it right now - it can't land shots. Now, if it has such short range because that's how it's coded for the charge attack then maybe I'll be more accepting of it, but I would be all for an extra tile of range for the standard shot even if it meant the charge attack went further.
Tue, 09/15/2015 - 16:59
#14
If I might, the weapon has decided to become:
Bomb: Fairly incredible but difficult
Sword: Decent at some things
Gun: Poor
Compared to say.. Combuster, which is-
Bomb: Good+easy at some things; i.e. small crowds but not more
Sword: Good+easy at many things; i.e. elemental normal hits
Gun: Poor
Which is basically what I'm trying to say, along with what I told Holy-Nightmare about how reliable it is.
As for the bullet traveling further by a bit, that'd be a good change for it. It's super annoying when it can't quite get that switch because tortofist. As long as it still forces you to stand still and fire slowly it's functional. The charge attack going further would be a fairly neutral change so I don't see it hurting anything.
Wed, 09/16/2015 - 11:27
#15
Yeah
Sort of what I was getting at. I can't count the number of times I've shot a switch or enemy to have the bullet fall short by a single tile, hence increasing the bullet distance is the biggest change I want. Increasing the speed of the bullet wouldn't hurt the weapon at all, but wouldn't make it "OP" either. Neutral on that one unless increasing the speed increases the bullet distance which I'm fine with instead of simply increasing the distance.
Again, my biggest concern with the weapon is that it's simply not a good gun - it feels like a winmillion with a bomb charge attack rather than a gun charge attack... However I will say that I do enjoy using tortofists more than I ever have used a winmillion. I'm mostly concerned about the damage the bullet does, how far it goes, how fast it goes, etc. The actual attack itself (punch forwards, shoot bullet, kinda slow doing that) is a good limit on the gun, and the weapon in its current state deals a fair amount of damage on standard hits if you have A) max damage, B) specialized damage, C) connect every hit. Second two should be a given, but that makes the normal damage tortofist swept under the rug - but it's not like the valiance is useless now that we have specialized blasters, just its gimmick is spread out. Normal tortofists aren't too great on the standard hits - thus I think a weapon-wide punch = more knockdown and less damage, bullet = less knockdown more damage would work. Can deal the same amount of damage in total, but it makes it more viable to still use this weapon as a gun instead of a sword-gun... However using it as a sword-gun would be optimal on single targets.
what if the shards worked like a minefield, i.e. they exploded only if an enemy was near them? to balance that, you can only have 1-2 fields of shards active at any time.