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A consideration for the upcoming arcade redux- allow for free shadow lair farming + redo shadow lair armors

9 replies [Last post]
Tue, 10/13/2015 - 10:02
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Why would we want to make shadow lairs farmable? So that there will be more areas in the game for endgame players like me to farm for goodies and practice in.

Step 1: Move shadow lairs to the core terminal of their boss gate.
Step 2: Lock all parties after D25
Step 3: Shadow lair armor now costs 10 SL materials instead of one + costs half a shadow lair key to craft

Ideas to consider for the above:
-Could require players to play through the boss they wish to fight before the shadow lair becomes available
-Could tweak the rewards to be more realistic, but this might not be so necessary; I can't see many players being able to do this and the distribution of wealth is already completely out of control in the favor of a select few merchants.
-Could require the player to get what is basically T4 clearance; one full set of 5* + level 10 gear + all missions complete + 45K prestige.

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The other half of this is the shadow lair armors, which are for the most part, absolutely useless at this point and should really be awesome and something to strive for as they once were. I suggest giving all of them high risk high reward type balance tweaks that would greatly appeal to players, for instance-

Snarbolax:
-Sword damage high
-Sword CTR low
-Sword ASI med
-Handgun attack speed decreased: med
-Bomb charge time increased: low
-Fire high, shock high, freeze high

Idea: Full set gains incredible sword stats on par with chaos/black kat, loses other stats.

Ice Queen:
-Damage down: high
-MSI: low
-Double its current defenses
-Elemental resistance equal to Mask of Seerus's defense levels
-Gain 2 extra HP per piece over the typical set
-Resistance vs all status effects except fire: high
-Weakness to fire: max

Idea: If you can find a way to not use your weapons for damage directly, then you can instead opt for this set.. which provides you with possibly the best possible defensive stats. This really helps bombers out the most, as vortex and haze bombers would find the most use from it, but it also extends to guns like wildfire and storm driver, which can be used to deal shock and fire respectively.

Almirian Crusader:
Global Damage: low
Global Ctr: low
Global ASI: low
Movement decreased: med
-Gain 3 extra HP per piece
-Resistance to fire: low (instead of weakness)
-Resistance to shock: low
-No more resistance to curse
-Same defenses

Idea: A good all around armor piece that represents a balanced play style. It doesn't make you weak to anything, it defends against the nastier status effects, and it has above average normal defense. The balancing factor is the movement speed decrease, which means that to succeed with it, you'll have to plan accordingly and avoid taking hits.

--

I might write more later, tell me what you guys think and share your own ideas about whether we should be able to farm SLs or what SL armor should be like.

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 10:08
#1
Petater's picture
Petater

Ehhh, let's not remove most of the value of sl keys here. We don't need more salty players having the value of in game items changed on them. I'd rather let SL keys still be valid, but complimented with a 2/7/30 day SL pass you can buy in supply depo or AH featured.

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 12:16
#2
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

Shadow Lairs being farmable is one thing, and on one hand I like the idea of them being farmable, but on the other hand they are very costly.

The fact is that shadow lairs are some of the most difficult levels in the game, and us end-game players really need to have constant challenging content to go up against. Being able to farm shadow lairs would allow for this... But how do we balance it?

What if we bring in a system for shadow lairs that reflect mist energy? Call it a "Sleeper Aura" or something, and you are given access to the Sleeper's Aura after completing Dreams and Nightmares.
This new "mist" would recharge when you're in the clockworks, playing the game, but at twice the rate of the old days of mist (in the arcade. Missions would be like before), however you have a cap on how much "mist" you can gain per level. Completing a level grants +1 mist regardless, making actually playing the level work in your favor opposed to just idling in a level for an hour then leaving and coming back and doing it again. You also gain additional mist for completing certain missions or levels, such as +5 for defeating a boss in the arcade, +3 for completing dreams and nightmares, etc. This system would limit your ability to run endless shadow lairs, however make playing them much more normal.

You can regenerate a maximum of 100 of this aura via playing the game but then it caps out - however you can go over the limit by using a shadow key. Shadow keys are now repurposed to opening a "sleeper stone" in the arcade, next to the shadow lairs. Opening this stone grants everyone in your current party +200 to their Sleeper Aura. If you want to do endless shadow lairs, you now want to do them in a group and you all are still paying for the keys, however now you can do them without them as well by simply playing the game.

If we make shadow lairs easily and freely farmable, then Darkfire Vanaduke will simply become the new meta for getting crowns. You don't want to have knight elites begging to go on your shadow lair party now do you? Instead, making shadow lairs more "normal", however still limited makes them valuable. The shadow keys are also still available to anyone who hasn't reached the final rank missions, so it doesn't limit that.
Only extra issue would be shadow lair armor costs, but we could add more items into the shadow lair area and call it good there... Perhaps have them also require one or several of the materials from brinks to craft their items?

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 12:31
#3
Petater's picture
Petater

Eh, shadow lairs need to be that "high level" thing that keeps PvE players in the game. It has to be that carrot that has mythological lore, so people hope one day to go there, when they're still defender elite. It gives them a long term goal to earn enough to get there to make snarbolax armor set.

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 14:04
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

@Petater (first post)

Existing shadow lair keys would be turned into energy. It's really not that hard to deal with that sort of compensation, as they have an energy equivalent to become. Existing shadow lair materials would reward the player with a single UV ticket each.. which seems like a bad deal until you realize that they go for less than 20K on the auctions.

@Fangel and Petater (second post)

Lets go with the clearance idea. Before shadow lairs become of avail to your knight, you have to have:
-A full set of fully heated, five star gear = 2 weapons, a shield, 2 armor pieces and a level 100+ battle sprite
-Full mission completion
-45K prestige, possibly whatever badge comes before it.

Every run when you go on a shadow lair you have to work your way to the core terminal, or join someone as they go there. This implies a bare minimum of one player getting to D25 and inviting, followed by 3 players fighting through at least 3 levels, D26-D28, prior to the boss fight.

The obvious solution to farming radiant fire crystals becomes arcade Vanaduke followed by invitations at D25 followed by loot of epic proportions.. but the problem with this is really the time constraints- Darkfire Vanaduke takes a good hour if not two, normal vanaduke takes a good 45 minutes, and stratum 5 takes a good 10 minutes to run through or 30 to play through. Add up all of those, and you've got a minimum of around 2 hours for a single run, but it doesn't stop there, because you had to coordinate that challenge with all of your closest friends, since you know that any randoms joining you aren't going to have the prestige badge, won't be able to go down, are incompetent etc.

To me, all of this sounds like a fun challenge as well as that "high level" thing that Petater described as keeping players in the game... but instead of only keeping players there until they did it once or twice and realized how high the costs are, it would become a new farming area to master, allowing for even more of a draw.. and since it's tied to the arcade, the 'best gate' would vary quite a bit-

Gate 1: Snarby + arenas on D27/D28
VS
Gate 2: Vanaduke

Suddenly, the shadow lair snarby + 2 arenas sounds like the gate to farm. The arenas are much faster, and shadow lair snarby is fun in its own right. In this way, the "best level to farm" would now rotate for elite players, giving the game much desired replay-ability. No crazy mist systems, no shadow keys to farm for, just a new area of the game.

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 14:29
#5
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

I like the core terminal idea - makes more sense with the ending anyways... However unknown passage becomes kind of awkward when it's in the core, unless we have some odd depth that takes us elsewhere.

However I do dislike the idea of disabling players from joining a run post D25. Nothing stops players from joining a shadow lair currently at the clockworks terminal, we shouldn't have a limit on that.

The reason I gave that mist system was that it allows for "legacy" players to still be able to get use out of the shadow key while also limiting time we spend in shadow lairs. We shouldn't stop playing from joining a depth 27 arena when they went there and invited guildmates. We should however prevent players from running nothing but darkfire vanaduke because that makes the entire thing less fun.

By allowing end-game players a way to play the content for free and not closing the doors on other players, it makes the shadow lairs seem like something to accomplish in time. If your party members do not have any of the Sleeper Aura from my previous post, then they cannot continue unless a teammate provides them with some aura as well. This prevents players from constantly running the lairs, and if they want to it encourages them to purchase shadow keys in a group so that they all can get the 200 aura bonus.

I will admit it is a more complex system, however we ditched mist and got rarities, which are a new system, so it's not impossible.

However in your post that means that in order to fight darkfire vanaduke, you must first run through regular vanaduke in the arcade. That... Would be really tiring despite being rewarding. The real question here would be is there really anything better than back-to-back vanaduke runs? I know I don't like to run vanaduke back-to-back, and that doesn't change anything if he's curse themed.

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 16:14
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

What if the player couldn't view their "mist score" and just received one bound shadow key every now and again via prize wheel, wherein that shadow key must be spent to begin earning another? The formula could be something like you suggested, but could also reflect your current amount of prestige so as to reward more prestigious players considerably more, since this is who this is aimed at-

When you... you get:
Completing a level (mission) = 1 point
Completing a level (arcade, T2) = 1 point
Completing a level (arcade, T3) = 2 points
Finishing any T2/T3 mission that isn't hall of heroes/talking = 5 points
Reaching emberlight = 5 points
Logging on for the first time that day = 10 points
Reaching the core terminal = 10 points

Amount needed to earn a key: (starts when you finish all missions)
Under 45K Prestige: 500 points
45K Prestige: 300 points
55K Prestige: 150 points
70K Prestige: 100 points = new prestige badge?
100K Prestige: 75 points = new prestige badge?
150K Prestige: 50 points = new prestige badge?
Every 100K Prestige earned after that: -1 point required, until 30 at 100*21 = 2,150,000 prestige

So for most players, you'd have to wait about a week to get a free shadow key, possibly much less if you had more prestige and played more often. If you were a novice endgame player (less than 55 prestige), you'd have to wait a good month to attempt a shadow lair.

---

And is there anything better than back to back Vanaduke? Of course there is, it's called back to back arenas followed by shadow lair anything and less honorable players exploit the first part of that whenever they feel like it, myself not included. The D25 thing, well, I'm selfish and I want to force my friends to play shadow lairs with me as opposed to cheating. If you're really joining a friend at D27 you might as well be joining that friend a bit earlier so that you actually have to work for the loot.

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 16:35
#7
Falminar's picture
Falminar
...?

"Half a shadow key"?

How would that work?

Maybe shadow keys would be replaced with something else, which costs half the price, and 1 is used in each item?

(And why would you need a key to craft something? It's not like the alchemy machine is locked, and you're not upgrading the key somehow...)

Tue, 10/13/2015 - 18:43
#8
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

You'd have to pay more because of the cost of the items currently. If you want them, you have to bring orbs of alchemy and pay for a key and do the lair. Paying extra once or twice for the gear is a great practice, as it's a rather special set of gear-- paying that much for a single run is overkill. The half-key cost solution would get them twice as much per item crafted, but would place all of the cost on the gear and not the levels.

Wed, 10/14/2015 - 10:35
#9
Fangel's picture
Fangel
That sounds interesting

The "Sleeper Aura" mist thingy was something that I didn't think needed to be shown, but having it act as a sort of "get online and play for a key, else wait for a key" works in basically exactly the same way, so I'm all for that.

I would say completing missions would grant a simple +1 point, with certain missions granting extra (boss strata grant +3, FSC is +5, new vanguard missions +3 with both swarm related ones being +4, prestige mission +3, danger mission +5).

Prestige bit works as well.

Either system works great, I would say that the ability to use this system be limited still, to people who have completed all the missions, with their points still adding up until that point. In this way after completing all missions you'll likely get a single free bound shadow lair key.

Basically I'm digging that second idea of yours. Some way to view progress on this sort of thing would be nice, but having it be in your character tab might be your best bet.

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