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So how would you rebalance armor?

24 replies [Last post]
Tue, 04/12/2016 - 10:49
Putkisen-Seta's picture
Putkisen-Seta

I'm sure these have been done before but hey, it's all in good fun. One rule: it has to be simple. No "Virulisk Armor allows you to turn invisible!" or "Sentinel&Co line of armors should branch off into statuses at 4 stars, not 3!" kind of stuff because that would require a lot of work. Existing stats only. I'll start:

Deadshot line should have it's +Undead bonuses changed from Medium to High.
Virulisk & Salamander suits should have their family bonuses upgraded to High. For the ENTIRE line. No comment on the Arcane variant.
Jelly Mail line should have its Sleep resistance replaced with Bomb CTR Low. No comment on Ice Queen variant.

Bonus points if you don't just focus on the gear people already have. Make the hipster stuff worth using!

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 12:03
#1
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I've put a great deal of thought into this issue and came to the conclusion that the best course of action would be to re-balance armor around The Perfect Mask of Seerus and chaos cloak, because those are genuinely fun and worth using. I'd like to start with the padded armor set, which I believe to be quite central to the game at the moment.

Currently we have-
1* = 1 piece
2* = splits to 3 pieces ea. = 3 damage types
3* = splits to 4 pieces ea. for 12 total = 4 types of status resistance/weakness
4* = Gain a stat..
5* = splits to 3 piecea ea. for 36 total = choose an enemy to focus on or generalist

My issue with padded is that there's too much of it and that it all pertains to gunslingers, overpowering them armor wise while flooding the game with mostly useless armor pieces. There are two obvious solutions to this- the first is to give bombers and sword users the same deal, and the second is to give bombers and sword users some of the gunner armor. Granting bombers and sword users additional armor types in the same way as padded was created for gunners would only continue to flood the game with these armors and would be a lot of work to generate.

I propose repurposing the gunner armors into bomber/swordy/gunner armors, and then going from there.

1* = 1 piece; global damage med

2* = splits to 3 pieces ea. = pick one of the 3 weapon types:
-global damage low+ weapon damage low, weapon ctr low, weapon asi low

3* = splits to 4 pieces ea. for 12 total = Play Styles
-Purist = focus entirely on that weapon, it gains large buffs
-Hybrid = focus primarily on that weapon, but gain about half the stats for the non-chose 2 weapon types
-Utility = focus shifts to statuses (+high to all statuses) and large ASI/CTR buffs
-Specialist = trades normal defense for the same amount of all non-normal defenses; gains additional global damage low

4* = Gain a stat, depending on what you chose.
Purist = +1 weapon damage
Hybrid = +1 non-weapon asi for gun/sword, ctr for bomb
Utility = +1 weapon specific ASI/CTR, or MSI for bombs
Specialist = +med for each status type

5* = splits to 3 piecea ea. for 36 total = choose an additional play style aspect
-Purist fully maxes that weapon type with both pieces, splits into
---chaos = less defenses, statuses etc, less restriction on weapon type
---pure = huge weapon debuffs for other types of weapons (they become unuseable), gains status resistance low for all
---all-in = even less defenses (cannot get to positive status resists) + weapon debuffs, gains MSI med per piece

-Hybrid splits into
---Duality = One non-main weapon type buffed to slightly less than the main (2 optoins, one for each weapon type)
---Generalist = Non-main weapon types buffed only slightly, gains MSI low

-Utility gains negative global damage: med and splits into
---Defensive = Gains +2 more HP, decent armor protection against all defense types, gains additional med to all statuses
---Fast = Gains MSI high per piece, maxes CTR/ASI
---Offensive = Gains +1 damage instead of losing 2; gains MSI low per piece

-Specialist splits into monster bonuses; Gains additional status resist low and +3 HP, weapon buff +1 to all remains
---Helm A = Gremlin + Construct max
---Armor A = Fiend + Beast max
---Helm B = Slime + Beast max
---Armor B = Construct + Undead max
---Helm C = Fiend + Undead max
---Armor C = Slime + Gremlin max

The idea is that each class gets 12 armors from this exactly, based on the 4 play styles and subdivided into the 3 sub-play styles.

Purist is for players that would only use that one weapon type exclusively, and allows them to truly master it in every way possible. They have the option of giving up other weapon types completely, defenses completely, or both for more bonus towards that weapon type.

Hybrid is for players that would mix and match weapons to create the strongest combination possible, using swords, guns and bombs at once. They focus on one weapon type more than the others, but buff the others enough to use them.

Utility is for players that wish to play the 'support' class, using items like mist bombs, antiguas, sudaruska, pepperbox.. things that focus on utility over raw damage. They get the most defenses and options that let them become better at their job in whatever way they choose.

Specialist trades in general attacking power and direction for defenses against ranged/specialized damage, and eventually grants a maximum attacking bonus against 4 of the 6 enemy types. Specialist armor is intended to be mixed with other types. Specialists play the stats game to come out on top.

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 12:37
#2
Putkisen-Seta's picture
Putkisen-Seta
Hmm.

People already have those armors. You can't just change them into something else altogether without screwing them over. A more realistic change would be more on the lines of "low tier ASI changed to CTR so there's no overlap with Gunslinger, catering to a different playstyle." Increasing the family bonuses to High in tier 5 would help too.

I'd absolutely purge most Padded Armor variants given a chance but that doesn't seem realistic. Easy changes are the theme here!

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 12:50
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

People would be given the generalist gunslinger line if they chose the pure damage variant (which would be a net increase in offensive capability), or they would be given the specialist variant that covers their monster, which would also be a net increase in stats. There's no reason for people owning these to be angry, unless they were using it for costume, but if that's the case support tickets could be used to remove accessories at which point they could easily craft a new one.

Regardless, the 'people would temporarily be upset' thing is kind of a weak excuse to not fix things that need fixing, provided you actually fix them. Think of all the high tier skolver sets from before chaos got its monster buff- the players holding those are doing just fine.

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 13:07
#4
Jazzberry-Jam's picture
Jazzberry-Jam
Fallen set

I would add either universal ctr low on each fallen gear piece or universal damage low. But since universal damage would conflict with the damage penalty to fiends, making it medium instead of very high, i would also change it to maximum, so it stays very high.

It's probably a bad idea, but i tried.

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 13:29
#5
Putkisen-Seta's picture
Putkisen-Seta
Hmm.

Plenty good idea actually. So UCTR Low, UASI Low, UDMG Low, -Fiend High per piece?

As for Feh, do remember the added costs inherent to crafting and, ugh, heating. Several hundred radiants more to grind would not be minor.
Have you made a chart or something of the desired end results? I'm assuming at least the defense types would remain the same.

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 15:29
#6
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Have more fun with what we have

Give kat sets MSI for their weapon type. IE, sword MSI low per piece of claw stuff.

Before you go saying that doesn't exist, when you have MSI on your gear all of your weapons have the same "movement speed increased" value on them. This would make kat gear more in line with black kat gear about being specialized for weapon type.

Chaos should be changed to have CTR: low DMG: med on the helmet, and CTR:med DMG: low on the armor. This lowers the overall damage bonus and CTR by 1 each, and allows for more advanced mixing and matching.
After this change black kat gear could have its universal damage bonus reduced from maximum to very high.

Gunner update gear with family bonuses should have their family bonuses buffed to a high damage bonus per piece, but also have -1 damage to one other family type. This pattern could be as follows:
Undead <-> Gremlin
Constructs <-> Beasts
Fiend <-> Slime

Suddenly you're a gunner who can destroy that monster family, but if you use it as a universal set you'll have problems.

Tue, 04/12/2016 - 23:22
#7
Jazzberry-Jam's picture
Jazzberry-Jam
@Putkis

"So UCTR Low, UASI Low, UDMG Low, -Fiend High per piece?"

I meant fiend high, UASI low per piece along with one of the two (UCTR low or UDMG low), not all three.

Wed, 04/13/2016 - 04:02
#8
Krakob's picture
Krakob

My problem with rebalancing without introducing new mechanics, which would make armour 10x more interesting, is that we get a pretty limited selection of what can be done.

Generally I'm a fan of UNIX philosophy: a program should Do One Thing and Do It Well. I'd like to see this applied to SK as well, where for example, Royal Jelly set doesn't offer any resistances. Instead, it offers a lot of piercing defence, but not much beyond that. Similarly, a Skolver set should be nothing but perhaps a health bonus and a sword damage bonus.

A general rule of thumb would be that each item gets two positive attributes: a large amount of defence, +4 in a status, +2 in a weapon bonus, +5 health. +1 universal weapon bonuses count as a single positive attribute and +2 universal bonuses count as two positive attributes, meaning that Chaos would have four positive attributes. Naturally that doesn't fly, so each positive attribute in addition to the two each item is given will result in a negative attribute, which is usually some form of weapon stat reduction or status weakness.

Wed, 04/13/2016 - 04:59
#9
Putkisen-Seta's picture
Putkisen-Seta
Hmm.

Interesting approach. Mind you, if armor doesn't have any defense at all, there's no point in heating it beyond 5 anymore.

http://prntscr.com/arp9l7
Armor chart from the Arsenal. Might be of interest when it comes to balancing the idea.

Wed, 04/13/2016 - 05:09
#10
Zincamania-Forum
@Krakob

@Krakob Personally I wouldn't like if for example Skolvers Freeze Resistance was removed (or other changes of that fashion). Players have made their armors and gotten UVs on them with the base stats in mind. For example a freeze high UV might be useful on Skolver, because you generally equip that armor for a freeze level and having that UV can allow you to wear for example only a single skolver piece combining it with maybe Ironmight platemail to get more normal defense while you have enough freeze coverage through just that one skolver piece. Removing the +4 base freeze on skolver would ruin that idea and potentially make the freeze high UV useless to that person. (It's really just an example and it might be fine in most cases, but I don't think it's fair to completely change the base of an armor after people have invested their crowns in it - UVs are a part of the game after all.)

I think that a lot of the current imbalance can be solved by better level design. Right now, I feel like they have taken the wrong approach to making hard levels. Almost all the harder levels just have so many different enemies in them, so all 4 damage types are present and it becomes impossible to properly defend against them. There's no point in running heavy defense armors because even though you will tank considerably more against 1 type, the other types will still hit you hard. So the best option is to just ignore defense and rely on dodging, making Chaos or Black Kat the armors of choice. These armors do come with a weakness, they are weak to almost any status effect. But that's not really a huge weakness, for 2 reasons.
1) Most levels only have 1 status type, making dual resist armors lose some potential. There's no point in having decent resistance to more than 1 status when nearly every level save for a few you can probably count on 1 hand only has 1 status in it. Dread skelly has poison+freeze, but why would you use that over the +freeze -shock padded line for something like Heart of Ice, when there is barely any shock to fear in that mission and there's no poison anyway. Making levels have double status would make dread skelly/fallen armor/etc more useful.
2) Status is too strong in PvE. You can only be immune to a couple of things and while that does reduce the difficulty of those area's considerably, I think there should be more of a mix. More minor status in PvE, would make all the armor sets that reach +7 be immune to them, while chaos/black kat can never gain immunity to it, even with UV's.

So as a summary of how I would want the "next generation" of harder levels (tbh I think this should start in the 2nd half of tier 3 and all hard even type missions) to be: Make them levels that limit themselves to a combo of only 1 or 2 damage types and also only a few monster families (2 main families, with occasionally a 3rd family for support monsters like silkwings). Make the level have 2 main status types, that come in strong/moderate and minor variants. Occasionally there will also be stun/curse as an extra?

This would accomplish several things:

1) Punishes armors that have status weakness as a tradeoff for their offensive prowess (black kat/chaos), without flat out nerfing them.
2) Promotes the use of armors that provide good resist to multiple statuses, because there is more status in levels and it's also worth being immune to certain strengths of that status.
3) Promotes the use of armors with high base defense and defense UV's, because it's actually worth specialising in 1 defense type (no more 4 damage type spam from all 6 monster families - kinda ruined the core for me, I'd rather have had all status spam than all damage type spam)
4) Increases the value of 'dmg vs monster family' UV's because there is a limited set of families you encounter per level, making them more useful in general. On top of that, the current 'defense armor sets' will become more valuable (see 2 and 3), making a universal damage bonus max harder to come by (at least without sacrificing vital status resistance). This makes the 'dmg vs monster family' UV's useful to help you get the max bonus.
5) Same as with Armor sets, this will make defensive shields much more useful.

in my opinion, this would fix all the issues that I personally had with SK's arsenal imbalance (aside from OP weapons like brandish, guns etc), without having to change all the stats of the current gear.

Wed, 04/13/2016 - 06:56
#11
Ironclaw-Mender's picture
Ironclaw-Mender

personally i'd take a plank, put it on a pivot, then place armour of equal weight on both sides

Wed, 04/13/2016 - 07:21
#12
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Putkis

That doesn't really tell me anything. Bars aren't a good way of measuring numbers and I'm guessing the percentiles there refer to % in damage reduction, but defence isn't multiplicative.

Wed, 04/13/2016 - 08:12
#13
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

I would give the Mad Bomber Suit "Bomb Damage Bonus: High" and better status resistances. Then I'd give the Helmet "Bomb Charge Time Reduction: High" AND "Bomb Damage Bonus: High".

While the CTR can be redundant with fully leveled bombs, in this day and age that's difficult to do, so Mad Bomber could be quite worth it. This would also mean that I might have a reason to mix the helm with the Chaos Cloak to get Ultra CTR on all my bombs but then still buff other things a bit more.

Thu, 04/14/2016 - 04:33
#14
Boci-Boci-Tarka
Personally I'd remove the

Personally I'd remove the useless status condition bonuses or weaknesses like sleep by either removing them or replacing them on the armor itself with something else or by adding sleep monsters.
Also increase the number of curse levels after Tier 3 and maybe the second half of Tier 2, and as mentioned above, armors could only have 2 positive parts and for each other positive attribute a negative one being added for compensation.

Thu, 04/14/2016 - 08:45
#15
Putkisen-Seta's picture
Putkisen-Seta
@Krakob

I'm guessing that bar refers to the one in your character sheet, not ones displayed on armor. It divvies by two from what I understand.

Sun, 04/17/2016 - 02:38
#16
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

I am so serious about armour rebalance I'm logging in with my main, u guise.

Glossary

To understand the proposed rebalances, we must first discuss currently existing
armour and their values.

  • Status
      Most common armours with a resistance have +4 resistance against its respective status, the equivalent of a MAX UV. Kat armour and similar glass cannon stuff has -2. For more information about statuses and its intricacies, I have a chart.
  • Weapon bonus
      Most class armours provide a +2 bonus to whatever they are bonusing, or the equivalent of a Medium UV. A +1 bonus to an ability is, to the best of my knowledge 4%. Bonuses stack additionally, not multiplicatively, so that +6 is the equivalent of 24%. For a list of every weapon with every damage value at every depth at every bonus against every bonus, I have a chart with closely approximated values. If you think you don't see a weapon there, trust me, you do.
  • Defence
      This is the biggest thing to change, because most armours give a totally crappy amount of defence compared to what they need to in order to not suck. On depth 25, two pieces of Skolver gives approximately 250 piercing defence and 280 normal defence. Jelly gives 300 piercing defence. Ironmight gives 400 normal defence, and Ancient gives 600 normal defence.

      Defence works so that half the defence is directly subtracted from the damage. If you attack a skolver with a Final Flourish that normally does 335 damage against undefended targets, the final damage is 335 - (250 / 2) = 210. The formula becomes dramatically more complicated once DEF > DMG, in which case it becomes DMG * (1 - (1/2 + 0.19 * LOG10(DEF - DMG)/15 + 1)). Two MAX defence UV provides approximately 52 defence.

Preamble

Before we start, I should mention that the guiding philosophy behind this rebalance is that we want to achieve the power level of class armours, since those are basically perfect. Any armour we should ask "Why would I consider this compared to Skolver?" The stats for skolver looks like so:

  • +4/+5 Hearts (depending on heat level)
  • 140 Normal defence
  • 125 Piercing defence
  • +4 vs Freeze
  • +2 Sword DMG

I intend to keep Skolver exactly as it is.

The following armours will not be changed one iota:

  • Wolver and all of its offshoots
  • Gunslinger and all of its offshoots
  • Spiral Demo and all of its offshoots
  • Perfect Mask of Seerus

These represent the power level we're trying to achieve. Mask of Seerus gets to be slightly stronger than other armour if you squint at it due to being a DLC item, and its owners having contributed money this fine game.

Rebalances

Health will not be mentioned unless it deviates from the standard +4/+5

  • Cobalt
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 100 Piercing, Shadow, Elemental defence
      • +2 vs Fire, Free, Shock, Poison

      The reason for +2 versus statuses is that most enemies deal Strong status, and having a total of +4 in defence will bring that Strong down to a Minor. You can choose Skolver over Cobalt, but you sacrifice a lot of general defence for it. On the other hand, Skolver has more defence on its own merits: Against Normal, Piercing and Freeze.

      Cobalt will never be the best option, but always a good option.

  • Almirian Crusader
      • 140 Normal defence
      • 125 Shadow defence
      • +3 vs Fire
      • +3 vs Curse
      • +2 Sword CTR

      Basically a variant of Snarbolax armour, but with Fire + Curse instead of Freeze + Poison.

  • Dread Skelly
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 300 Shadow defence (from previously 150)
      • +4 vs Freeze
      • +4 vs Curse

      The biggest change is doubling the amount of shadow defence, but the second biggest is changing poison to curse. I'm going somewhere with this.

  • Royal Jelly
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 300 Piercing defence (from previously 150)
      • +4 vs Stun
      • +4 vs Poison

      This is where I'm going. Worthless sleep resist changed to poison.

  • Mercurial Jelly
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 140 Piercing defence
      • +4 vs Shock
      • +2 MSI

      The only piece of armour by which you'll be able to reach maximum MSI. I'm willing to concede and debate on the overall stats, but I would really like there to be a way to reach max MSI. Mercurial Demo stays at +1 MSI.

  • Gray Feather
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 300 Elemental defence (from previously 150)
      • +4 vs Fire
      • +4 vs Shock

      Unchanged apart from doubled elemental defence.

  • Divine
      • 150 Elemental defence (from previously 140)
      • 150 Shadow defence (from previously 140)
      • +4 vs Fire
      • +4 vs Shock
      • +2 vs Undead
      • +2 vs Construct

      I figured I'd make this one even more suited at Ghost in the Machine than it previously was. Curse resistance exchanged for damage and a little defence.

  • Chaos
      • +1/+2 Hearts (from previously +4/+5)
      • 140 Elemental defence (from previously 125)
      • +2 Universal DMG
      • +2 Universal CTR

      Chaos is a cloak/hood pair. Thinking about it, I saw no reason why such a garment should provide any defence at all. In keeping with the spirit of the armour, I decided the elemental defence should be kept. Someone sporting a "glass cannon" type of armour has no business getting hit with melee attacks in the first place. The good news is that with the low amount of health the wearer will have, they are certain to survive with Last Stand. That is, of course, unless they wanna ruin the whole getup using heart trinkets.

      This distinguishes Mad Bomber and Chaos, in a way that makes them both glass cannons, but differently so. Chaos no longer has a weakness to any particular status, it simply offers no defence. Mad Bomber on the other hand, has a lot of status weaknesses. I might even suggest to make Mad Bomber even weaker to various statuses than it currently is.

      I assure you the armour will still be perfectly viable. I've run many FSC using Cyclop Cap and Fencing Jacket, and it felt a lot like what "glass cannon" should feel like.

  • Black Kat
      • +1/+2 Hearts (from previously +4/+5)
      • 140 Shadow defence (from previously 125)
      • -4 vs Curse
      • +3 Universal DMG
      • +1 MSI

      +3 universal damage is worth a lot, so I figued it fair and thematically appropriate to keep the curse weakness.

  • Kat Claw/Eye/Hiss
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 140 Shadow defence
      • +4 vs Freeze
      • -2 vs Shock
      • -1 vs Curse
      • +2 Sword ASI/Gun ASI/Bomb CTR
      • +1 MSI

      A shadow variant of Mercurial Demo, with a few weaknesses to boost the
      weapon-specific stat.

  • Ironmight/Volcanic Plate
      • 300 Normal defence (from previously 200)
      • 150 Piercing/Elemental defence (from previously 125)
      • +4 vs Stun
      • +4 vs Shock/Fire
      • -1 Universal ASI

      A long-awaited secondary resistance, as well as general defence buffs. The ASI debuff is nasty.

      Honestly, I think the plate armours need more stuff, but the rules told us not to add extra complications like +2 flinch resistance and +2 to staggering.

  • Ancient Plate
      • +9/+10 Hearts (from previousl +7/+8)
      • 500 Normal defence (from previously 300)
      • -1 Universal ASI
      • -1 Universal MSI

      Unchanged just more defence and health.

  • Dragon Scale
      • 150 Piercing defence (from previously 140)
      • 150 Elemental defence (from previously 140)
      • +4 vs Fire
      • +4 vs Poison
      • +2 vs Slime
      • +2 vs Gremlins

      I'm not sure what to do about this one, so I just buffed it a bit and gave it family bonuses ready to take on C42 even moreso than it already is.

  • Radiant Silvermail
      • 150 Piercing defence (from previously 140)
      • 150 Shadow defence (from previously 140)
      • +4 vs Poison
      • +4 vs Curse
      • +2 vs Undead
      • +2 vs Beast

      Beast bonus had to go somewhere, right? I have no idea what I'm doing.

  • Valkyrie
      • 140 Normal defence (from previously 125)
      • 150 Shadow defence (from previously 125)
      • +4 vs Poison
      • +4 vs Curse
      • +2 vs Undead
      • +2 vs Fiend

      If valkyrie gave damage bonus against both types of shadow enemies, I could see people using it in PvE. It wouldn't and shouldn't be your first set, but eventually there'd be people who would sink money into owning a similar set for each of the three damage types.

  • Fallen
      • 125 Normal defence
      • 125 Shadow defence
      • +4 vs Fire
      • +4 vs Poison
      • -4 vs Curse
      • +2 Universal ASI
      • -2 vs Fiend

      Just bump that ASI a little bit and we get a viable piece of armour.

  • Heavenly Iron
      • 140 Normal defence
      • 125 Shadow defence
      • +3 vs Shock (from previously -4)
      • +3 vs Curse (from previously +4)
      • +1 Sword DMG
      • +2 vs Fiend

      Just turn that negative shock resistance positive and it's almost like a real armour set.

  • Deadly Virulisk
      • 140 Normal defence
      • 150 Piercing defence (from previously 125)
      • +4 vs Poison
      • +4 vs Shock
      • +2 vs Slime
      • +2 vs Beast

      The piercing variant of Valkyrie.

  • Volcanic Salamander
      • 140 Normal defence
      • 150 Elemental defence
      • +4 vs Fire
      • +4 vs Freeze
      • +2 vs Gremlin
      • +2 vs Construct

      The elemental variant of Valkyrie.

  • Arcane Salamander
      • 140 Normal defence
      • 150 Shadow defence
      • +3 vs Fire
      • +3 vs Curse
      • +1 Bomb CTR
      • +2 vs Undead

      The bomber equivalent of Heavenly Iron. The gunslinger equivalent is,
      of course, Deadshot.

Gunslinger armours

No way I'm listing these. Instead, I will devise a procedure that ends up at the same amount of 3 x 4 x 3 = 36 armours as we have now.

Anyone who owned a padded set gets all invested orbs, radiants and crowns refunded with a mail that's sent the next time they log on.

  • 2*: Choose between one of +1 Sword ASI / Gun DMG / Bomb DMG
  • 3*: Direct upgrade. Adds +1 Sword CTR / Gun CTR / Bomb CTR
  • 4*: Choose between +1 Sword DMG / Gun ASI / Bomb CTR
  • 5*: Choose between one of universal +1 DMG / ASI / CTR / MSI

Powerful/Dexterous/Strategic/Elusive Darkclaw/Sureshot/Supercharged Quickblade/Gutshot/Sharpnel Mask/Vest

    • +3/+4 Hearts (normally +4/+5)
    • 125 Normal defence
    • +1 Sword ASI / Gun DMG / Bomb DMG
    • +1 Sword/Gun/Bomb CTR
    • +1 Sword DMG / Gun ASI / Bomb CTR
    • +1 Universal DMG / ASI / CTR / MSI

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 00:42
#17
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

In spite of being a huge leap in the right direction, your changes are somewhat underwhelming compared to what is needed from 'good armor' pieces.

The more functional bits and pieces tend to step on each other a good deal; fallen is just a defensive variant of gunslinger with fire/shadow/poison. These are balanced well but leave something to be desired in the same manner current armors do- they're not very different. So good? Yes but not good enough. The cost to heat anything is much larger than the enjoyment that I'd glean from something of the sort.

The other issue I see is that this doesn't address the underlying issue with many of the armors mentioned. Chaos and black kat are over powered because you can compensate for their draw backs. Your fix for chaos is to give it no defenses and less hearts, and you even wrote "unless they wanna ruin the whole getup using heart trinkets". Well guess what people are going to do? +18 health and it's back to normal or even stronger, actually, because it lacks the status debuffs. The other issue with glass cannon armor is that it's defensively viable when you're fighting say, ice and shadow themed enemies, which means that both ice and shadow themed armors are just out.

Which would you rather have when fighting a pure elemental gun puppy? Chaos or grey feather set? Grey feather would let you practically wade through bullets, but at the cost of all your offenses while chaos both provides the best offenses around and resists some of what's being put out there... ergo, there is some semblence of balance.. but what about on other levels, without elemental everywhere? Chaos, ten times out of ten, stuff some extra fire, shock, poison, freeze, whatever in there and you're good to go and your grey feather set falls short.

Proposed chaos set
+3 damage (it can be at good at its job as it needs to be)
+2 ctr
-minus 6 to all the main statuses including stun but not curse
+30 normal
+2/3 HP (down from 4/5)

Proposed grey feather set
+300 elemental
+200 normal
+140 shadow/piercing
+2 to all status effects, including curse/stun
+6/7 HP (up from 4/5)
+1 global ctr

This way, chaos does its job and never grey feather's job. You get to that fire area and grey feather is there for you with its +2 to fire and extra HP, but chaos is going to get you burnt hard. Of course +1 ctr is a far cry from +3 damage and +2 ctr, so grey feather isn't going to be backing you up on that front much at all.. but what about when you fight shadow enemies? Chaos still has its offenses, and grey feather has.. also something! It's a bit lackluster, and out of place, but it still resists things, so if it's your first time through firestorm citadel, the slags are going to hit you way less hard using grey feather just because grey feather is fundamentally defensive. Of course, dread skelly (provided it has the same stats but for shadow) would be even better than grey feather, but is it 100% necessary? Not at all.

Finally, we see areas like dreams and nightmares that don't have a specific damage type, where anything flies. Currently, chaos is the best because well, it still has its offenses. You can't take those away. The new and improved grey feather is also viable, because it defends against the pure normal bullets, the piercing+poison spikes, everything in general.. and most importantly, the elemental enemies that you presumably crafted it to face off against. Worth heating from an endgame perspective? I'd say so. Any elemental heavy endgame area would greatly benefit from it.

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 01:01
#18
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

All resistances for all defensive armours? I can see the sense in that.

Which armour sets would you go to for a lot of status resist instead of blanket resist?

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 02:52
#19
Midnight-Dj's picture
Midnight-Dj
Balance? What is that?

I think I will make a proposal of my own, instead of wasting time arguing with Fehzor, Bopp and Zeddy over minuscule defense values and bonuses, I think there should be a new mechanic for the armors. Instead of trying to balance everything, we simply should just make everything overpowered in their own right. And that bonus is the set bonus:

Azure guardian set (cobalt/solid cobalt/mighty cobalt/azure): (1/2/3/4) universal status resistance bonus except for curse, sleep and stun. A further 1+ if a defender shield of the same star level is equipped.

Valkyrie set (angelic/seraphic/Valkyrie): (5%/15%/25%) chance scoring critical strike (2X weapon damage against fiend), this makes Blitz needle all the more deadly.

Fallen set (angelic/seraphic/fallen): (5%/8%/10%) chance inflicting curse. Combine with GF for guaranteed curse!!!

Heavenly iron armor (SL unique): 5 second shield recovery mitigation, +50% universal shield health recovery rate, making the set useful for swordies against fiends.

Skolver set (wolver/dusker/ ash tail/skolver): (5%/8%/12%/15%) chance for an instant charge on any sword player is holding.

Vog set: when using fang of Vog, completely ignores the negative fire infliction and gains an exclusive CTR Med for the aforementioned weapon.

Snarby set (SL unique): VH CTR on snarble barb and all of its upgrades. Bristling buckler and all of its upgrades gains a normal defense increase of medium.

Ironmight set (plate/boosted/heavy/ironmight): (+25%/35%/45%/+50%) universal shield health recovery rate, (all) 15 seconds bonus for picking up a defense orb.

Volcanic plate set: +50% universal shield health recovery rate, cannot be damaged by fire based floor hazard.

Ancient plate set: +50% universal shield health recovery rate, if the shield is also equipped, when stunned, the player immediately receives a 30 seconds of speed, attack and defense buff.

Skelly set (Skelly/scary/sinister/dread): 5% health recovery when a zombie (and only zombie) is killed using sword, when a shield of the same star level is equipped, treating Grimalkin's bite as the same damage of a spookat found in the same level.

Demo set (demo/fused/heavy/bombastic): (10%/12%/15%/20%) chance for an instant charge on any bomb player is holding. Oh look they are useful!
-Mad bomber set: exclusive CTR med bonus for BAB, can move as normal when charging, for all bombs. (graviton is good now :D)
-Volcanic demo set: exclusive CTR med bonus for Ash of agni and its variants, cannot be damaged by fire based floor hazard.
-Mercurial demo set: exclusive CTR med bonus for Voltaic tempest and electron vortex and suffer no MSD when charging those bombs.

Mercurial set (quick silver/charged/mercurial): (5%/10%/15%) health recovery when shocked instead of being damaged, does not spasm or stop when shocked.

Jelly set: (jelly/brute/rock/royal): 5% health recovery when a polyp/jelly cube is killed using sword, cannot be damaged by spiked floor.
-Ice queen set (SL unique): 5% health recovery when a polyp/jelly cube is killed using sword, immune to freeze based floor hazard.

That is all I got for now.

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 05:04
#20
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

I'm totally on board with new mechanics. Unfortunately the first paragraph of the thread forbids them.

Mon, 04/18/2016 - 05:43
#21
Midnight-Dj's picture
Midnight-Dj
@Pandabear

Unfortunately the first paragraph of the thread forbids them.

Lol, half of the stuff I suggested are still just stat increases with some new gimmicks, then again, I am not known for following rules. This is probably why I will always be at odds with Fangel, Zeddy and Bopp.

Wed, 04/20/2016 - 08:31
#22
Putkisen-Seta's picture
Putkisen-Seta
.

Expecting the what, 2 dudes that run the show now to implement the very concept of critical hits is silly. This thread is about viable changes. I especially liked Zeddy's Cobalt for instance.

I doubt any of the defense stuff would see any use though, same problem as before. I'd rather just slap Bomb CTR onto jelly since it's called demojelly in the game files and all and cut that corner right off. Any family bonuses/penalties should probably be High to make up for how situational that stuff is. All in all, great thread so far! Lots of good contributions.

Wed, 04/20/2016 - 09:32
#23
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

New Volcanic Salamander
150 Normal defense
200 Elemental defense
100 Shadow defense

+3 vs Fire
+3 vs Freeze
+2 vs Shock
-2 vs Poison

+2 Global CTR

+3 damage vs gremlin,construct
-3 damage vs fiend,undead,beast,slime

The Concept

Instead of having the armor just damage some enemy type, it needs to provide an actual play style.. In this case, that play style is charge attacks. While you'd absolutely destroy construct and gremlins, you'd be at a loss when fighting just about anything else.. forced to go into support mode and rely on something like haze bombs.

While the armor is still highly situation and there are plenty of levels you'd be at a loss playing on, gremlin menders and gun puppies are quite common on a good many levels, making for a decent all around armor and play style. The large amount of defenses and status resists help it stay viable on levels that aren't as flooded with gremlins or construct.

Wed, 05/04/2016 - 18:33
#24
Varriscious's picture
Varriscious
Shadow Lair Gear idea

In my opinion I think all the Shadow Lair sets should have Damage Bonus vs Swarm (Void) low or medium, oh and the Heavenly Iron to actually have fire resistance because for one, it says so in the description. Though I feel since the Shadow Lair equips are boss gear, they should have some special bonus effect to make them more special than any gear, basically a set effect, like a symbol that pulses or an aura that isn't an accessory. (Ex: with the full Almirian Crusader, a symbol of almire pulses behind the wearer of the armor. The Snarbolax armor with glow eyes that flash around when you move. The Ice Queen with an Ice mist aura that makes trails of ice steps. Mercurial Demo set with...I don't know. Arcane salamander already has an effect which makes the symbols glow. Finally the Heavenly Iron with the third eye flashing) Though the full purpose of this is mostly because the armor is merely suited for the core to have a T1-T3 gist.

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