Just a question I have for all of you :
I heard many times that the trinkets Brinks sells are bugged and do not work.
Someone in my guild said they got one of the defense raise tokens, and enemies did the same damage
Which means that they are bug and do not add anything !
Does anyone know if this is still there, so I dont waste all my token :!
I don't use trinkets enough (read: At all) to tell you but honestly you're better off not getting hit at all anyway. If they do work, then you should put it towards a damage type your armor doesnt defend against naturally. Like perhaps Shadow. And I don't think using the trinkets really help if all you have are the cheap ones.
There were tests among the different types of fire resists you can have. Quick conclusions are:
As far as we know that only applies to status resist Trinkets. I don't think anyone has put it to test on the Defensive trinkets.
Im more interested in the defensive trinkets
piercing / shadow defense
I just did a quick test with the 4* rock jelly band that protects against piercing.
I faced only D9 Wolvers.
No projection: 2 Pips piercing
Rock Jelly band: 2 Pips piercing
Wolver coat L1: 1 Pip piercing
Coat + band: 1 Pip piercing.
The bar on an L1 Wolver coat is the same as the Jelly band.
So if the Jelly band projects at all it is significantly less than what the bar says. Further testing is needed to be sure.
The problem that people have testing these trinkets to see if they work is that they do so using mid-high level gear against T2 level enemies. Since the damage being taken is already split 50/50 normal/____, the damage amount is small and mobs can hit you for a fraction of a health bar, even if the trinkets are providing defense you won't see it since their defense bonuses are fairly small to begin with.
The real way to test this would be to put on spiral armor, walk into T3 and get hit by a pure damage attack. It will take off a massive chunk of health. Now zone out, put on two defense trinkets and get hit again. See if the damage decreases at all.
I'll test this Metaphysic's way if someone funds me the CE to do it :)
the trinkets arent the issue here, its the defenses overall, they BARELY matter, which makes defensive equipment useless
Metaphysic, in regards to the fire trinkets, the tests were done on Vanaduke runs.
BiggestLoser, that's quite a likely theory, but it's been proven there's diminishing returns on UV's for defense and higher levels of defense themselves, and also that having low resistance UV's makes a noticeable difference. It might follow that having a little bit of defense is much better then having no defense.
Even on T3, I suspect that a large enough lovepuppy trinket would outweigh that, unless you basically never healed to full hp, and got hit by piercing attacks very frequently.
T3 test with wolvers, first stage off elevator in Wolver Den level. Numbers are all damage:
No Trinkets-Vog Cub
5 - 5 - 4 - dead (revive)
5 - 5 - 4 -dead (revive)
5 - 5 - 4 -dead (leave)
1x 5* Jelly trinket - Vog Cub
4.5 - 5 - 4.5 - dead (revive)
4.5 - 5 - 4.5 - dead (revive)
4.5 - 5 - 4.5 - dead (leave)
2x 5* Jelly Trinkets-Vog Cub
4.5 - 4.5 - 4.5 - 1(wtf?) - dead (revive)
4.5 - 4.5 - 4.5 - 1(????) - dead (revive)
4.5 - 4.5 - 4.5 - 1(....) - dead (leave)
No Trinkets-Skolver
2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - 3 - 3 - dead (revive)
Same (revive)
Same (leave)
1x 5* Jelly-Skolver
2.5 - 2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - 3 - dead (revive)
Same (leave)
2x 5* Jelly-Skolver
2.5 - 2.5 - 2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - dead (revive)
Same (leave)
Comments:
It's not that they're bugged, it's that they're useless and incredibly overpriced. I wasted 100 Grim Sparks on a dread skelly charm and now slag walkers deal 7 dmg per swipe as opposed to 8.
Read my joy.
Overpriced as compared to what? It's not like there is some other thing you can buy with sparks that is really important.
Well Forge Sparks can get you Sun Silvers, which themselves are worth just as much as one 5* trinket, but with a fifth of the price. And Grim Sparks can get you Trojan Horseshoes, which sell for a good amount for the 10 tokens that you spend on them (more than the other 5* mats grims can give you).
T3 test with wolvers, first stage off elevator in Wolver Den level. Have revived once to confirm damage. Numbers are all damage:
No Trinkets - Vog Cub + 6 Vitapod
5 - 5 - 5 - 5 - dead
1x 5* Jelly - Vog Cub + 6 Vitapod
4.5 - 5 - 4.5 - 5 - dead
2x 5* Jelly - Vog Cub + 6 Vitapod
4.5 - 4.5 - 4.5 - 4.5 - dead
No Trinkets-Skolver + 6 Vitapod
2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - 3 - 3 -2.5 - 3 - dead
1x 5* Jelly-Skolver + 6 Vitapod
2.5 - 2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - 2.5 - dead
2x 5* Jelly-Skolver + 6 Vitapod
(MISSING) - did not complete along with others as level had rotated
Conclusion:
5* piercing defense trinket does do something, yet it's so minor that it's worthless, likely all defense trinkets are just as bad. Considering to test if these trinkets even beat a 2* piercing defense.
Basically, your conclusion is that trinkets work, but the effect isn't that big. Rather, like most other gear, it's what you do with the gear that matters, as gear can't substitute for skill.
for confirming that defense trinkets do SOMETHING. That is very valuable information. Seriously, thanks.
As for people claiming they are worthless, you have to remember trinket slots and trinkets in general are premium products. I think your average player is not meant to wear trinkets, and if they were dramatically awesome it would make them necessary for high level play. Can you imagine being booted from a vana run for not having the appropriate trinkets? It would be nice if they were buffed slightly, but making them too strong might put undue pressure on a casual gamer, while a hardcore player will most certainly pay the cost for this 'worthless' edge because an edge is an edge.
I agree that gear is less necessary than skill, but I disagree with your "most other gear" comment. You can see the big difference between Vog Cub and Skolver when I fight against enemies that have piercing. Yet the trinket that suggests it should help with piercing damage does almost nothing, even when you double equip the best ones offered.
No, they're definitely worthless.
For Vana runs (without boss), I'm fine with Skolver. As in, I have absolutely NO relevant defense against most things there, aside from the random jelly. Yet I consider these trinkets worthless for what they cost. Also, read what Tokinsom said earlier. That type of super-minor boost is NOT worth it, as these "edges" actually have a cost.
Of any trinkets, NONE of them seem worth it, aside from heart trinkets. There's the problem then: if I don't have money, I avoid trinkets altogether. If I do, then I'll go straight for heart pendants. I never consider any other trinkets now due to these results.
I just realized Metaphysic had a suggestion I've never tested, so let's try it out:
Spiral Gear with +6 vitapod, no trinkets:
6.5 - 3.5 - dead
Spiral Gear with +6 vitapod, 2x 5* Jelly:
6 - 4 - dead
You can see, pretty odd results. In both cases, I was left with 1 bar, but not exactly in the same way. I don't even know how to account for this, as there could be damage throttling when you're near-death, or the whole "health bars are lies too" type of thing.
First of all, I'd like to agree with patito:
"thank you for confirming that defense trinkets do SOMETHING. That is very valuable information. Seriously, thanks."
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Now then, there's one huge thing here that you might not be catching. If you have both Vog Cub and Skolver, then yes, Skolver is a lot better against piercing damage than Vog Cub is. But it's also a lot worse than Vog Cub against elemental damage. The trade-off of wearing Skolver is that you can't wear Vog Cub. Neither is unambiguously better than the other in general. Rather, each is better in some cases and worse in others.
Contrast that with trinkets. If you're going to argue that trinkets are worthless, then the alternative to wearing a royal jelly band is to wear nothing at all. And yes, royal jelly band is definitely better than an empty trinket slot. You can argue that it's not a lot better, but it's often better and never worse. It's kind of like UVs in that way. A UV isn't going to make a huge difference, but it's sometimes better than no UV, and never worse than no UV.
Or, for that matter, it's like many pieces of five star gear in general (though there are some that aren't a direct, minor upgrade of an equivalent four star piece). Skolver isn't that much better than Ash Tail. But it is clearly better, as it's better in many particular cases, and never worse. If trinkets are worthless, then so are UVs, and so is five star gear.
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"In both cases, I was left with 1 bar, but not exactly in the same way."
It could easily be rounding that makes them appear the same. See above how with no trinkets plus Skolver, you had the same health after taking three hits. It wasn't really the same; it was a difference of something like 0.3 health bars, which merely rounded to the same thing to display on your screen.
As for why the second hit took off so much less damage than the first, were they exactly the same types of hits? If so, then there could be some sort of partial damage immunity when you get hit repeatedly. When I get smacked several times in a row by mobs that hit hard, it often seems like it takes them more hits to kill me than it ought to. Or it could just be some partial immunity from being low on life, though I'd be more skeptical of that.
Trinkets have a cost beyond the 100 tokens (which is pretty steep to start with, you could be getting Trojan Horseshoes and Sunsilvers to sell, or any other mats that you can get without having to worry about spending crowns). There are also the 300ce every month for the two slots. That is definitely not worth it for the 2 hp cumulative damage prevention. What's bothersome is that TWO 5* is nearly equivalent to ONE 1* heart trinket, which itself is not worth it as well.
Also, I feel you are underrating UVs. Like mentioned before, a low UV of fire resist is equivalent (or may even be better than) the fire resist a piece of Vog Cub provides. Also, there have been other threads, and even personal tests I've contributed to the wiki that suggests that 5* in general are useless if they don't provide any outstanding benefits over the 4* if you are anywhere lower than the 6th stratum, as the nerfing of 5* equipment can sometimes make them weaker than the unupgraded 4*. Yet why I use Skolver over Ash Tail is that additional Med-Sword-Damage boost, which is most definitely not worthless (+28% damage rather than Ash Tail's +14% damage is considerable).
So in all, yes, Trinkets are still worthless compared to even minor UVs and 5*. I wouldn't say this if I didn't test these results myself (which I have, and others too).
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As for that 1-bar leftover, I've tested different ways to approach it. I even waited several seconds between attacks after reviving, and noticed the exact same results compared to when I was swarmed. And yes, same type of hit in all scenarios, from wolvers with no alpha-wolver-boost. I feel that what's likely is a life-saving-damage-throttle if a hit will kill you, but will barely do so. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case honestly.
I'm pretty sure there is an "instant death" protection at a certain health.
With the recent change to Lumbers I get hit for a ton of damage. There have been a few times where I tell myself I can't get hit, screw up or lag into an attack and somehow survive with 1-2 bars left when I should have been overkilled.
Would be cool to see a test on this.
On topic, the effects of the trinkets seem to be so minor that they reduce only ~.25 protection against the damage type per trinket, possibly less. Odds are, starting the run with 3+ more bars of health will result in less overall damage taken per run than a trinket will give. Heart Trinkets are definitely superior.
Thanks for the topic, will be using my tokens to make money and not waste energy on a trinket slot until I get a heart.
A lot of very interesting data in this thread ... the whole resist / defense system could use some more clarity
We see our weapons do enemy damage , so to see the damage from enemies would be good as well
For different star level trinkets, it must depend which stratum / tier you are in to their effectiveness, just like with regular equipment
It's just that equipping two 100 token trinkets providing the same defense would give nearly a full bar of defense, yet the damage isn't lowered to what it should be as compared to equipment with the same defenses. I think someone pointed that out with wolver having the same resist as a trinket but being more effective.
You have just proven exactly how much trinkets are not worthless...
Do you not get this? I understand you are preoccupied with the opportunity cost of 100 sparks, but it is up to the player to decide whether this very very minimal (but not worthless!) amount of protection is worth that opportunity cost. Thank you for sharing your subjective decision, but please don't be surprised when others judge even that minor amount of protection as worth it.
Your claim that resist trinkets aren't worth as much as heart pendants is not exactly accurate. You see, resists get more valuable the more life you lose...
Let's look at some numbers. It appears that two trinkets give you roughly 10% mitigation... from the 5 to 4.5 difference you've discovered. This means that to be equivalent to a single tetra heart pendant you have to take 50 damage (10% of 50 damage is 5). With a nice fat +10 vitapod, fully heated gear and the health capsules over the course of a t3 run, I'd say it'd be pretty easy to take and recover from 50 damage. If you take MORE than 50 damage the resist trinkets IN FACT BECOME MORE VALUABLE THAN A SINGLE TETRA HEART PENDANT.
The key point here is that the value of damage resists scale with the amount of damage you take, where the value of a heart pendant will be FIXED always. There are situations where, in fact a damage resist trinket might actually be worth quite a bit more than a heart pendant.
That being said, my guess is that most of the time a tetra heart pendant will be better (hence why they are soooo expensive) but resist trinkets are far from worthless, sir.
How is his reasoning subjective at all? He's shown the numbers right there. Spending 200 tokens for 2 less damage after 4 hits isn't great at all. The point is that they're not all that helpful seeing as you'd need (in his scenarios) at least 10 HP for the tokens to take any effect at all. These aren't going to be low health lifesavers, they only take affect in the long run which doesn't help many players since at the higher levels. Now obviously they're not useless as they do provide small bonuses but they're nothing special. Luckily, in the case of Jelly Bands the Primal Sparks aren't exactly too hard to come by but if it were Grim Sparks or Forge Sparks I'd rather buy materials to sell. You can roughly get 5x more money off of Sun Silver than trinkets.
This brings up another question though, just how effective are the regular Jelly Bands as comapred to the Royal ones? I figure there's either going to be a near useless boost or it'll be something equivelent to the Royal Jelly band which would show the trinkets are a bit bugged.
>Let's look at some numbers. It appears that two trinkets give you roughly 10% mitigation... from the 5 to 4.5 difference you've discovered. This means that to be equivalent to a single tetra heart pendant you have to take 50 damage (10% of 50 damage is 5). With a nice fat +10 vitapod, fully heated gear and the health capsules over the course of a t3 run, I'd say it'd be pretty easy to take and recover from 50 damage. If you take MORE than 50 damage the resist trinkets IN FACT BECOME MORE VALUABLE THAN A SINGLE TETRA HEART PENDANT.
Look again, the boost isn't 10%, its .5 damage (look at the numbers for Skolver, not just Vog Cub) Now I already mentioned in my post that in the long run, these do show use but it really is such a small amount of damage that its laughable. There's really no reason to call people out just to try and show your own supperiority. Obviously people have oppinions. Everyone's has been given and there's no need to criticize any of them. You can attempt to argue but its already been established that they DO work in minimal ways but they just aren't worth the price.
I'm really not trying to establish superiority or anything silly like that. The numbers look to me like they show a decent amount of value for the trinkets. Am I totally insane here? It's silly to say you're going to get hit four times and die. You're going to get hit, pick up some hearts, get hit, use a health capsule... and I'm just saying over the course of taking a bit of damage, the value of resist trinkets looks to me like it might add up... am I totally mistaken here?
[edit: for -> four]
Looking at hits that -sometimes- are 5 with or without resist, and -sometimes- go from 5 to 4.5 with resist, splitting the difference gives us a 7.5% damage resistance, but the margin of error is tremendous on the small sample size.
Still, it's pretty clearly less than 10% and not less than 5%, which is good to know.
It does become worthwhile if you are conservative with your health capsules and are often healing up with hearts - those fractional hit points will add up tremendously over time if you're never or rarely healing to max+. It's mostly not worthwhile for solo players because health capsules drop at the same rate no matter how many players there are - there's a tendency to use health capsules at least once a level to 'top off' the health bar before heading down the elevator. So for solo players a heart trinket has more value than it does to a large party player, and to a large party player a defense trinket has more value than it does to a solo player. Without doing a rigorous analysis, I suspect those differences are enough to add up to 'solo players are better off with heart trinkets, players in 4-player parties are better off with defense trinkets'.
Playstyle and skill may be enough to change that - for a sufficiently good player who is -often- back at max health the fractional hit points saved will never add and rarely matter.
I mostly agree with you, except if you're ever in a situation where you can fill up to beyond your maximum health (clockwork terminus, for instance) the counter resets. So in t3, it becomes 50 damage / 5 levels, possibly plus some more if you guy lucky with heart drops. (This makes the Tetra Heart even more valuable)
Your logic is sound, but your conclusion is slightly flawed.
I thought T3 Wolvers still did split damage?
Wouldn't the trinkets be more useful against Slimes, which do pure piercing?
For what is is worth, I once tested piercing damage via the floor spikes in the Advanced Training House. I found that in the ATH, armor made zero difference at all, and not surprisingly, trinkets made no difference at all. The only difference between your proto armor and 5* armor was how many extra health bars you had. In the ATH, all bars that fell off were red, while in the clockworks, I see yellow. Whether armor has an affect in the clockworks or not isn't obvious to me. I wouldn't count on the ATH results applying to the clockworks, but spikes may ignore armor in the clockworks too.
As far as the value of buying trinkets vs buying mats with your tokens, well, you can buy mats with crowns anytime, you can't buy these trinkets for any amount of crowns. You eventually reach the point where you have your 5* armor, then what do you need crowns for? The relative value of trinkets vs crowns (via mats) changes as you progress.
Spikes in ATH probably count as pure normal damage because ATH counts as a Tier 1 area. This is supported by the fact that a plate shield takes a lot more hits from them before breaking, than a shield with split normal/piercing defense. (Yeah, plate shields are kind of OP in Tier 1) Too bad there's no normal defense trinket.
Thanks to this thread, I'll be getting rich by using my tokens on Sun Silvers, Plasma Cells, Shadow Steels, Warp Dusts, and Bushy Tails then putting them on AH, instead of wasting them on this crap that needs 150 energy a month to even unlock.
Even after I get 5-star gear, doing that then spending those crowns on good UVs is still probably a better deal.
no patch i know of has fixed them, however i haven't equipped mine yet.