Spiral Knights - [PSA] Poison doesn't work the way you think it does

[PSA] Poison doesn't work the way you think it does

31 replies [Last post]

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:19

Eeks

Hey guys, a while ago I ran into a lumber with two menders in T3 and attempted to kill him with the Toxic Vaporizer II (UV: High Dmg to Construct) and a nitronome while leaving the menders alive. I was hitting him with the elemental damage of each bomb and hitting him with nitronomes in between but he refused to die. I found this highly suspect and figured that the ground heal in T3 was bugged or something. I have been seeing a lot of people claim that poisoned enemies take damage when they are healed. My experience has said otherwise but anecdotes are meaningless so I went to test it myself.

Video Here

Basically, from what I can see, enemies that are poisoned can still get healed although the amount of HP they gain is significantly reduced compared to not being poisoned. It is completely clear that they do not take damage from being healed though.

It is never explicitly stated anywhere in the game that poison completely blocks healing or that enemies that are poisoned take damage from being healed so I don't know if this could be classified as a bug. If you want to argue about balance that is a different story.

Oh and I am sorry for anyone that owns a venom veiler... so sorry.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:27

Patito

lol @ poison

This is very unfortunate...

nice video eeks

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:41

BiggestLoser

Legacy Username

Zelda

ok i never really saw them taking dmg when poisoned, but that just sucks T.T

spiral knights needs some healer weapon so we can slightly heal too o.o

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:45

Madadder

biggestloser no we dont that

biggestloser no we dont that would ruin the challenge of the game

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 14:39

MeSako

Legacy Username

Where have it EVER been

Where have it EVER been stated that poisioned enemies takes damage when healed?

As far as I know, poisioned enemies and Knights cannot be healed, and have reduced attack and defence.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 14:44

BiggestLoser

Legacy Username

Zelda

might as well say shields ruin the challenge of the game, heals dont hav to be any strong or useful whatsoever, when a heal recharged 1/4 health piece in 5 seconds, would u still keep ur opinion? i doubt it, but it would still be considered a heal

i do agree to the part, that we dont need it, i was just saying it lightly like a joke..

E: old poison rumors

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Poison&action=history

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:24

Merethif

I've got Toxic Catalyzer

I've got Toxic Catalyzer recently and I'm playing with it a lot and I'm almost sure I've seen lots of poisoned monsters killed by Mender's healing. Maybe there is a difference between PASSIVE aura healing of Silkwings and ACTIVE healing "attack" of Menders? Maybe only Mender's healings acts as regular attack that is affected by poison and Silkwing's aura ignores poison? It would make sense since, as far as I know, only Mender's healing is interrupted by schock spasms, whereas schocked Silkwing is able to heal without a problem...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:35

ninjajpbob

Legacy Username

lol, b4 reading your youtube

lol, b4 reading your youtube username I was gonna say, this guy must have a PhD. lol

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:51

Eeks

merethif Maybe there is a

merethif

My first video was tested using a mender. People were confused by the haze bomb doing damage and mistaking that damage to be "healing ticks" so I redid the video. To cover my bases I used silkwings for the second one.

If anyone wants to provide counter evidence of healing doing damage or killing an enemy I would love to see it. :)

merethif

You sure?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:24

Dogrock

Off Topic: Super speedy Eeks

Off Topic: Super speedy Eeks had me laughing so hard.

On Topic: I know Curse it the only status that deals damage on an action, that's finally squared away for everyone else. However, could you test some other rumors? Mainly that Poison reduces monster attack and/or defense. I've seen the occasional statement going around that poisoning a monster makes it take more damage when a knight attacks it. I've not got reliable poison weapons, so this would be nice to see.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:28

#10

Taeloh

I can confirm that monsters

I can confirm that monsters do take more damage while poisoned but the increase is not very large. off the top of my head I think my DA first swings would do 9 more damage after moderate poison from my virulent catalyzer

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:40

#11

Eeks

d0gr0ck On Topic: I know

d0gr0ck

There is definitely a defense debuff. It would be interesting to see if there is an attack debuff though (I have never texted this).

You can see the defense debuff in the video. The first VV hit deals 18 damage to the poisoned wolver. At the end of the video the VV only deals 16 damage. The debuff is incredibly small for defense, at least on the VV, but it is there. The DVS has a larger debuff but it is still pretty small (I think within 6% increase).

Anyone want to test if enemies have their attack debuffed? Heh

I guess another thing to test regarding debuff is the amount of defense debuff for different types of poison (i.e. vial, super vial, venom veiler, toxic catalyzers, dvs).

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:49

#12

Dogrock

Yup, I just managed to

Yup, I just managed to confirm it myself. Looks like about a ~15% damage boost to poisoned monsters. I did it with a Toxic Catalyzer on a handful of Darkfang Thwackers. (33 -> 38 dmg a bullet)

Edit: There is an attack debuff on the monsters! In the same area as earlier a Gremlin normally does 1.5 pips of damage, a poisoned one only does 1 pip or damage. I made sure to get hit by the same attack type. A gun puppy went from 5.5 pips to 3 when poisoned.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:51

#13

Saphykun

Not to anger, but you may be onto something

Some valid points about healing that should be noted here:

Poison can lower the amount of HP a Wing can heal, which suggests that the Wing's healing ability is an attack

Poison doesn't work? If poison is supposed to prevent healing from occurring at all, then it should not heal a monster at all. At all, from the most recent poison update here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1603 .

This suggests that poison is
a) bugged or
b) devs snuck in a sneaky update and forgot to inform us about it

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:31

#14

Eeks

d0gr0ck Edit: There is an

d0gr0ck

Very cool! I'll see if I can test with VV. I'm assuming it will be a lot less than what you're seeing though based on the differences between DVS and VV.

edit:
some numbers:
D19

Combuster vs turret/retrode
197 DMG base
220 DMG VV
229 DMG T3 poison pot

VV (high dmg to construct) explosion vs lumber
198 DMG base
204 DMG VV (??)

AoA (vhigh dmg to construct)
??? DMG base
212 DMG VV

DMG from Puppy
2.5 pip base
1.5 pip VV
1.5 pip T3 poison pot

I died shortly after because I was testing each hit twice ;___; Not sure what was up with lumbers defense debuff.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:21

#15

Dogrock

Yup, I'm gonna try and poison

Yup, I'm gonna try and poison various monsters and take note of how much less they pound my face. Elemental damage monsters will be the most dramatic since I'm in T3 with no Elemental Defense. I'm wondering if Minor and Moderate poison will result in different debuff values. I don't have a Minor class poison weapon, just a Moderate.

EDIT (AUGH MY FACE!!!): Lumbers in went from 9.5 pips to 6 pips. That's a life or death change in damage for most people I would say. Attack debuff is percent based. Monsters that I am highly resistant too (Gremlins, Slimes and Beasts) show only about a half-pip reduction meanwhile Elemental attacks show 3 (probably 4 deeper down) pip reductions.

(I also managed the screenshot as my knight was flashing after the hit. Invisi-Dogrock!)

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:19

#16

Garbeld

I don't have any experience

I don't have any experience with poison beyond the Jelly King, so the following is pure conjecture:
Poison reduces the amount by which an enemy is healed by healing... heals. The magnitude of this effect can be greater than the strength of a heal, yielding negative healing - i.e., damage.

Just didn't see anyone else suggesting it, so...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:54

#17

Dogrock

SCIENCE

So sorting my posts out, all testing is done with a Toxic Catalyzer.

Monster defense debuff when poisoned results in about 15% extra damage being done for Moderate Poison. This was tested on Depth 19 Twackers/Gun Puppies and Depth 20 Lumbars/Jelly Cubes. The tests done by Eeks and the VV show that Minor poison results in a smaller defense debuff.

Monster attack debuff (health pips):

Depth 19
Gremlin Thwacker 1 -> 1.5
Gun Puppy 5.5 -> 3

Depth 20
Lumber 9.5 -> 5

Aaaand after that I was out of health pills.

Thu, 07/14/2011 - 01:23

#18

Pupu

Legacy Username

Wut

>Rumor
It's not a rumor, it was stated by the devs here and here:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1476
> Poison now damages monsters when they are healed and gives an attack and defense debuff.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1603
> Poison no longer inverts monster regen, it simply prevents it from occurring. If a monster is healed by another while poisoned, it will still take damage.

So, my guess would be that silkwings fall in the "regen" category, and there is a by one error in the code, so instead of healing for 0, they heal for 1.

As for the attack/defense debuffs, test on minor/mid/strong. I remember toxilargo poison makes your attack deal like only 20% dmg. It was ridiculous.

Thu, 07/14/2011 - 07:11

#19

Elencross

Legacy Username

Disappointed

I have a 4* Toxic Atomizer, and I'm frankly very disappointed with it. After reading all the reports and watching the video, I am convinced that Poison at the moment is probably bugged and in need of balance tweaking. I decided to try it out after reading that poison reduces enemy attack damage and defense, so I figured, hey! Why not? However in my opinion, 15% is just too low for the effort. On poisoned slimes, my Gran Faust does about 20 more damage than on normal slimes. My leviathan does about 7 more damage on the first hit. Personally i feel that this defense debuff is not worth the time needed to charge and throw down the bomb since i could just charge my sword and deal more than 400 damage in an AOE attack instantly. Even in parties where poison might help, i think my swords dps will benefit the party more than the poison bomb. And now to find out that poison does almost squat on healing, I think that it is almost quite useless.

Perhaps it was me just overestimating the usefulness of poison, as I had formed an "ideal" image of the toxic atomizer and thought that it would significantly boost the attack damage I dealt on poisoned monsters. My main reasons for crafting one in the first place was to better aid my team in killing monsters quicker (with the reduced defense), increasing their survivability (lowered attack power of enemies) and to shut down healing on mender/wing levels.

However now i find that on top of failing to stop healing, the defense debuff also failed to live up to my expectations (probably my fault), and I now rather dps it out with my weapons rather than attempting to poison enemies.

Maybe I'm just using it wrong, I don't know. If I am, I hope someone can point out the mistakes in my impressions of the bomb, and perhaps convince me to believe that this bomb has NOT been a waste of resources.

P.S: I have decided to stop upgrading it to the VV, for the reasons stated above.

Thu, 07/14/2011 - 07:37

#20

Merethif

My knowing may be not far enough

You sure?

No, I'm not :-D
That's why I have put "As far as I know..." at the beginning. My knowing is not far enough in many cases ;-)

Anyway, according to Pupu's link, poisoned monster should take damage when healed by another monster - if it's not a case (like your recordings suggest) it should be reporeted as a bug I guess.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 11:04

#21

Eeks

Elencross P.S: I have decided

Elencross

I think VV does have some limited use, although I can't think of many situations where it would be helpful in its current state. The one area that the VV might be a lifesaver in (literally) is in devilite areas where enemy attacks are hard to dodge. I don't know the numbers but if you were able to cut off 1 pip of damage per hit taking 3-4 hits would be the equivalent of having 3-4 more health. The problem is, I'm not really sure if the upkeep of keeping everything statused is worth it. Poison doesn't last very long after the mist evaporates and the last patch that nerfed haze bombs also affected the VV so it's hard to say. I can't think of many other mobs that attack you at a high enough rate that would make keeping poison status fields up worthwhile though so you're probably right that it requires some tweaking before being viable.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 11:25

#22

haddrox

Legacy Username

I have a VV with high CTR,

I have a VV with high CTR, and while the above info is definitely disheartening, it's still good for what it does. I solo/duo FSC alot, and the defense debuff it gives to enemies (imo the best attribute), is my primary reason for using it. I'll duo with friends that have AoA, and we can clean up any room insanely fast. For soloing, i have a Glacius, and VV works great as a combo. Zombies drop in 1 charge shot + 2 normal swings of my Glacius....needless to say, VV helps at making things go faster. It's also very handy in areans as well...i've had people "LOL" me when they see me use it, then after going through a room with me they usually change their mind about it. It's not nearly as useless as some are making it out to be, especially if it's used right. It by no means will replace the dmg output of AoA or the crowd control of a Shiver...i see it as more of a support bomb that just helps make things easier, and that it definitely does :)

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 12:07

#23

Metaphysic

Legacy Username

I think the problem arises

I think the problem arises when you ask yourself, "Why bring a VV when I could bring a Shivermist or AoA instead?" Sadly, the answer is that there is no reason for its existence as these tests prove.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 13:03

#24

Myou

Legacy Username

Quote the Wiki about Poison

Wiki Quote:Poison is a status condition that inflicts the victim with various effects depending on if it is a knight or a monster.

When a knight is poisoned, they cannot heal, either from hearts or capsules, and have reduced attack power.

Monsters afflicted with poison will be unable to heal themselves or regenerate health. Gremlin Menders or Wings are able to heal poisoned monsters at a significantly reduced rate. It will also weaken the monster's attack power and defense.

And the kicker is the next bit of information from the Wiki about Poison Vials

Wiki Quote:A Poison Vial will temporarily poison the target. This will make make the target unable to heal, take damage from third-party healing, and will also lower its attack and defense power.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 13:08

#25

Patito

the wiki is player produced

I've said this before, in other threads, I'll probably say it again.

This thread contains the most first hand information about poison I've read. What you're quoting may have even been updated based on the information presented here. People should not quote the wiki as gospel. Rest assured if someone is doing detailed testing, they've checked the wiki

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 13:41

#26

Eeks

Myou And the kicker is the

Myou

The wiki is edited by players. After I did my testing, I changed the poison page to reflect my findings but I didn't realize there were redundancies in poison text on other pages.

Metaphysic

This is true. I think VV might be OK for people who tend to get hit a lot but then again the shivermist/nitronome and proper crowd control would probably alleviate most of those problems regarding taking damage if we're only talking about FSC alone. It seems like poison, as it is now, is really only helpful if you plan on getting hit. It seems kind of backwards to use an item that is only useful if you plan on taking damage.

I just don't think the debuffs are enough to be worthwhile. Poison doesn't last very long after the mist and the mist doesn't last as long as it did before so you're going to have to spend at least 50% of your time just deploying status.

If it's a 2 player party let's say you do 200% more damage than solo if you're only focusing on pure power. Now with the VV one person is dealing 56% damage output and the other is dealing 112% damage output. That's less than if you were just dealing pure DPS. If doing 84% of the damage you could be doing to get a small attack debuff is worth it to someone though, they can use whatever they want I guess.

If we're throwing anecdotes out though, I've polled all the parties I've run with while using VV and the general consensus is that they can't even tell if the VV is doing anything at all.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 14:14

#27

Poul

You are forgetting about the

You are forgetting about the fact that it exist minor, moderate and strong Poison and they affects mosnters, in this case toxic vaporizer causes only minor. Also its known that alterated status affects different mosnters and knights.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 14:28

#28

Myou

Legacy Username

Wiki

The only reason I quoted the Wiki is not to claim it as the end all be all, but simply to answer the question that was asked eariler in the thread where people got the idea that poison + healers would kill a monster. I have no doubts that your claims on how poison is working to be above board, and infact makes the "use" of poison and VV on RJ even more minor then normal.

I do wonder what the differences between minor, moderate & major status effects would be. My guess would be simply duration length, but if it also counted for how much the healing gets reduced or how much def gets taken out then it would an interesting find.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 14:35

#29

Equinox

Game Master

Yes, the wiki is edited by

Yes, the wiki is edited by players. The information there is from either comments by devs or testing by players. I wouldn't be too harsh on editors for what was there about poison because it was taken from dev comments since no players had carefully tested it before. The wiki editors do put a lot of effort into trying to get things correct and sharing that information with everyone via the wiki.

Carry on with the discussion and thanks for taking the time & effort to do some testing testing, Eeks.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:59

#30

Katmint

Sorry for the bump, but I

Sorry for the bump, but I have something new to add:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn3OeTEssd8

It looks like poison "works" now.

(If you're impatient, skip to 1:50 to see the last lumber getting killed by the mender.)

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:30

#31

Schwalala

A summary on Poison in Spiral Knights, from my viewpoint

You know, this is all cool and stuff, but... I personally don't even care anymore that poison prevents/inverts healing. I use it almost solely for the Attack and Defense softening effect.

Which used to be the other way around. I used to think Poison's ONLY drawback was prevention of healing, which made me decide poison is almost useless and I should give up my Deadly Venom Striker in favor of a Wild Hunting Blade.

But after that, I found that poison does indeed reduce attack and defense as well. I had not heard of this before because the in-game tips didn't say anything about this, so I only discovered it when I saw it on the Wiki. It was a good thing I kept my Deadly Venom Striker and just stopped using it, rather than selling it to a vendor!

So, now I alternate between the two evenly. My Wild Hunting Blade has a UV "Damage vs Fiends - High", plus its built-in Damage vs Beasts - High as customary for all Wild Hunting Blades, and my Deadly Venom Striker on the other hand has a UV "Damage vs Gremlins - High", so that plus the poison effect makes it AMAZING to kill Menders, and even moreso when those Menders *think* they're supporting a large strike-force battalion of Thwackers. ^.^ (Yes, I bring these into Tier 3 with me. People think they "suck" in Tier 3, but like any sword, honestly you just need practice with it! The Cutter line is DEFINITELY not "just any sword" and it's not for everyone. Maybe I'll make a guide about them some time.)

Also, I just recently begun using the Toxic Atomizer and am doing my best to level it up to its ultima form, the Venom Veiler. I'm a lot more used to just setting them all on fire and slow-roasting them with my Agnis; the Poison is a LOT trickier to use while soloing, like, I absolutely notice the Attack and Defense softening right away, but I can't just bomb-spam and dodge until they're dead, I have to actually GET IN DAT ASS (in the famous words of YouTube sensation Behrudy) with the Sword for the damage to mean something, and this is teaching me to master the art of rapidly switching weapons while flowing in and out of combat. While in the midst of the chaos, I don't even notice there are enemy healers that are smacking their techs against a brick wall trying to heal their infected cohorts.

So yeah, that's my poison story. :D

MY CONCLUSIONS AND ADVICE:
Poison-themed combat styles suit those who can pressure enemies consistently and feel COMFORTABLE doing so. The Calibur's knockback attack is NOT a good matchup for Poison, as that is more of a defensive maneuver used to separate enemies from your breathing space; the Flourish line, however, seems to be incredible at pressure with its narrow yet pinpoint striking range and its ability to lunge and chase, and of course the Cutter line easily swaths in and out of the enemy's elbow room, damaging it without causing knockback, so those are two swords I say would go GREAT with Poison-themed weapon decks. For handguns? Instantly the Antiguia line comes to mind, for its ability to hit rapidly with flawless accuracy; I wanna say Autoguns work well with Poison too for their combo attack, but I haven't even close to mastered Autogun combat (yet) so I can't say. And bombs? Well, I haven't tried it, but I intend later to combine the VV's effect with the Agni, poison and fire both going at once (not while soloing, but with a big group) for maximum lethality. I would NOT recommend the Nitronome with Poison, for similar reasons as the Calibur; in general bombing is probably not the best idea for a Poison-themed offense, but play around with it if you want and maybe you'll find something. ^^

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[PSA] Poison doesn't work the way you think it does