Weapon & Armor Balance Compilation
Lun, 07/18/2011 - 12:05
As I felt that it needed its own thread, I took this data from the other thread for use here. Post what you guys think needs to be balanced and when discussed, it will be posted on here. I might have this moved to Arsenal later on if needed.
Personally, I really think the energy costs should be changed, Not all equipment should necessarily be equal, but if no one uses anything but the best equipment, because it's just as pricey as the sucky equips, well, what was the point of making the other stuff in the first place?
The essential problem here is that all equipment costs the same amount of CE and crowns at each tier, yet is not equal in the slightest. So there is a choice the devs should make if they want their hard work on items to NOT go to waste. They either lower the costs for many of the items, or they could make some good changes to them such as these:
Armor & Helm Balance:
Bombastic Set - Damage increase does not make it comparable to other sets
Blizzbreak/Blazebreak/Surgebreak Sets - Bonus does not compensate for weakness, especially since they terminate at 3-Stars
Cobalt Set - Has no bonuses to compare to any set, is even comparable to the Jelly set
Chaos Set - Bonuses do not compensate for weaknesses by any means
Dragonscale Set - Again, this is dual-defense and as such, it does not compare to other armors that offer Normal Protection. This set needs to stick with Piercing protection, especially given that it is good vs. beasts.
Jelly Set - Sleep Resistance useless, full set has less defense than Ironmight for a tradeoff of nothing more than no weaknesses in things like attack speed
Mercurial Set - Movement speed has no real effect, why is this even a bonus as listed?? If you quadrupled the movement speed bonus per rank, it might be decent enough to use this in any Stratum with piercing damage.
Shadowsun Set - Bonus does not compensate for weakness, and when compared to other weapon sets like Skolver or Mad Bomber, this set could use more of a bonus, or no weaknesses.
Silvermail Line - This line has piercing and shadow defense, essentially making it useless as well compared to the Deadshot set, which gives an excellent range of defense and attack against the undead.
Skelly Set - The fire weakness makes this worthless compared to the Deadshot Set (which has a bit less shadow defense, but more Normal, with no status weaknesses), especially as the Deadshot has Bonus vs. Undead.
Vitasuit Armor - None of these seem to make any sense getting, but if the whole set was one single line from 1-star to 5-star with the 5-star version having 8 Health and Max Normal protection with some other Ability added on, this would be a viable line.
Volcanic Salamander Set - Has a damage Bonus vs. Slimes, yet it has Elemental Defense. What gives? Give it a Damage Bonus vs. something else.
Shield Balance:
Jelly Shield - Compared to Ironmight, this shield has nothing to suggest using it over the Ironmight.
Blizzbreak/Blazebreak/Surgebreak Shields - These shields do not even measure up to other shields of 3-Star level, yet they terminate. Why bother? They should at least go to 5 star.
Omega Shell - Has no use, could have max Normal protection to make it on par, possibly, anyway.
Heater Shield - This shield has overall less defense compared to the Grey Owlite
Aegis Shield - This shield has less overall defense compared to Ironmight Shield
Ancient Shield - Between this shield and the Volcanic Plate, this has less overall defense.
Trinkets:
Status Defense Trinkets - Let's face it, compared to the normal defensive trinkets, these things are NOT on par. To fix them, they should likely be close to full to really fit the gap, especially now that the offensive trinkets really rock the trinket spectrum. This is too bad, really, considering there are status stratums that these would be useful on if it weren't for the other issues.
Weapons Balance:
Bombs:
Ionized salt bomb - Its piercing damage conflicts with its damage against slimes bonus, also its charge time is unreasonable to really be useful in a game that punishes bombs by taking the charge away with damage
Venom Veiler - Only deals minor poison, should do stronger levels for a 5-star, currently too weak to make much of a difference, given the bomb is sacrificing damage for a status, even though poison has been fixed.
Big Angry Bomb - Compared to the Nitronome, this bomb has no worthwhile use.
Stagger Storm - Compared to other Haze Bombs, not quite worth it, given its low stun time and combined with Krogmo coin grinding. Also weak for soloers
Heavy Deconstructor - Stops at 4 stars, making it a bit weak in comparison to Nitronome
Irontech Destroyer - Like the BAB, this bomb still has low DPS compared to the Nitronome and no bonuses. Seriously, what gives?
Guns:
Alchemer Line - Currently, the alchemers have awful charge attacks that are not worth using. An improvement of some kind would put them in line with other guns.
Prismatech Line - This might be a balance issue, I would like to know if anyone uses this and finds it better than the other Alchemers
Iron Slug - Compared to other guns, is lower in DPS and more difficult to use. Furthermore, for being 2 shots, normal damage does not make it worthwhile to use vs. anything, as most enemies are easy to hit with most guns. Give it more damage or more shots...
Neutralizer - Useless compared to others in its line.
Argent Peacemaker/Sentenza - Only useful to two enemy types, would be interested if anyone finds this that good against them or if it is junk
Swords:
Troika Line - I have heard reports of this weapon not being up to par, and the charge attacks sucking, can I get some confirmation?
Spur Line - Charge attack just does not do any justice, and the line ends at 4 stars. Worse, it's damage is not even comparable to the Calbur line. Shame really, the blades are pretty slick looking.
Cold Iron Vanquisher - Again, what is the deal here? Is this sword really worth it in Undead Stratums, or is the Leviathan overall better?
Cutter Line - Charge attacks at 5-star have issues and cause a lot of misses or increased danger to the user, making them useful only to very few enemies. This causes imbalance, as their regular attacks do not have any bonus over the usual swords used. (Such as Leviathan)
Flourish Line: Final Flourish is ultimately much better than the other 2 variants of the flourishes.
Cautery Sword: Honestly, why does this exist??
Other:
Attack Speed Increase Variants - Has virtually no use on guns compared to damage increases, and does not affect bombs at all.
______________________________
My Suggestions Compilation Thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/14651
Lun, 07/18/2011 - 21:23
#2
in defense of radiant silvermail
it has medium damage vs. undead, which are a very large population of our monsters. Combine that with a cold iron vanquisher (damage vs. undead = high) or a barbarous shield (medium damage bonus on swords) and you're getting some major bonus damage. And you can always get UVs on gear to compensate.
Mar, 07/19/2011 - 01:14
#3
I agree with lifesbrink about
I agree with lifesbrink about Ionized Salt Bomb . bonus damage vs. slime with piercing ? W T H ?
Mar, 07/19/2011 - 13:27
#4
Stop, hammertime.
Did you ever stop to consider that maybe they didn't design all items to be equal? That perhaps they meant for some items to be better situationally than others? Or that you just don't see the use behind the item? That said, the salt bomb is pretty poor. *shrugs*
Mar, 07/19/2011 - 14:08
#5
CIV with UV High/Very High vs
CIV with UV High/Very High vs Construct + a Volcanic Salamander Set + Barbarous Thorn Shield and you have a weapon that is highly effective (Read Ultra or Max damage bonus) against half the monsters types with no weaknesses against anything else. Pair that with a Wild Hunting Blade UV high/very high vs Fiends and the only things you need to worry about not doing excessive damage to are Gremlins.
Some equipment loadouts are meant to synergize better with other items than VOG CLONE, Leviathan blade, and Grey Owlite shields. It's up to the player to figure out how to make the most creative equipment loadouts to maximize their effectiveness.
While I agree with you that a lot of items need rebalancing, the swords you mentioned are fine (I'd argue CIV is way better than Leviathan for people with some imagination and money) same with Cryo and Iceburst series (I own a Glacius, and I prefer it a thousand times to my Divine Avenger). Also Skelly set is meant to be used in stratums with SHADOW damage, not ELEMENTAL/FIRE. In the same way I don't take my Volcanic Salamander to devilite levels, I also don't take my Dread skelly to FSC, and I am more than content with them.
Do I think Dread Skelly fire bonuses are a bit extreme? Yep a little too strong, but then again if it didn't have negative fire, I'd probably take it to FSC as well.
I suggest you take another good look at your list, there are things that don't need to be there, and things that need to be there, but aren't.
Mar, 07/19/2011 - 15:33
#6
Zelda
i dont see the necessity of balancing something i dont intend to use
on the other hand, for those people, who do use above mentioned items(yes, they have reasons to use them), a buff would probably be appreciated
just my advice here, search up the balancing threads(which were made by some1 working for 3 rings, i think), post the issues, that u have personally experienced with ur own gear, not fetched from other threads, and pray for a little buff somewhere in far far far far far far far future
Mar, 07/19/2011 - 17:54
#7
Well...
"Did you ever stop to consider that maybe they didn't design all items to be equal? That perhaps they meant for some items to be better situationally than others? Or that you just don't see the use behind the item?"
I did consider that, but when each item of a tier costs approximately the same amount (very slight differences depending on rarity of recipes or materials) then some items will go pretty much unused.
Some weapons are better situationally, I agree, but I think most of the aforementioned items are cases where they can't find their use compared to other items. Also, if you disagree about a particular point, pointing out that you find use in it would be helpful.
I don't speak from experience but since someone mentioned the Fang of Vog has a really powerful charge attack, maybe that's what's supposed to balance the possible fire damage the player could receive.
---
"i dont see the necessity of balancing something i dont intend to use"
No offense but this kind of answers itself... if it was balanced then maybe you WOULD consider using it. That's the point of this entire topic.
Mié, 07/20/2011 - 14:58
#8
The Skelly set is extremely
The Skelly set is extremely good in poison strata. It is also a good choice for ice strata. Except for the fire inflicting fiends and undead, it does fairly well in fiend and undead strata. The Skelly set is very versatile despite having a weakness.
The Cryotech guns are fine the way they are. Plenty of people like me use them. Guns are not for DPS. If you want DPS use a sword. If you want to to inflict freeze without breaking it, use a bomb.
Lun, 07/25/2011 - 21:24
#9
Velops
Cryotech might not be for DPS per se, but then, if you want to inflict freeze without breaking and should use a bomb, why bother using the cryo line at all?
Also, major changes done. Will add more soon, or change based on whatever anyone has to note of interest.
Jue, 08/18/2011 - 22:08
#10
Ok
I changed the cryotech suggestion. Hurray.
Vie, 08/19/2011 - 02:09
#11
Regarding the Prismatech
Regarding the Prismatech Line, after the recent buff, the single target damage difference is substantial (about 10%) compared to the other elemental alchemers. Volt has some crowd control but has minimal extra damage. Firotech can set mobs on fire, and the damage ticks are faster than volt, but on a single target the extra damage is inconsistent. Cryotech does have extra damage too but you'd have to wait for them to thaw.
I think Prismatech is very much undervalued now, if people are going to use alchemers at all.
Regarding Alchemer charge attacks, it has more bounce, so it has uses (like releasing the charge against a crowd or inside a large enemy). Also, for the status guns, they have an almost sure chance of inflicting the status.
Granted, Alchemers would be much better if they increased them to 3-shot clip or ASI started affecting reload time.
Vie, 08/19/2011 - 07:13
#12
Alchemers could still use love
Admittedly, yes, the charge attacks have bounce, which is nice, and larger range, which is also nice, but it is so limited in terms of utility. I have used them and noticed they don't seem to have that much more of a chance of inflicting status too, which is annoying.
So when you say the Prismatech is undervalued, do you mean it in terms of use or how people regard it? The thing really never struck me as too useful.
Vie, 08/19/2011 - 19:12
#13
wolver needs a negative
wolver needs a negative effect
/thread
Vie, 08/19/2011 - 19:35
#14
Comparing winmillion directly
Comparing winmillion directly to ascended calibur, it's even about 33% weaker on the base combo (using what little raw damage for winmillion is on the wiki), before you take into account that the projectile can't hit more than one target and can miss even when the slash connects. The charge attack is well known to suck. Also, what is the point of adding a projectile effect to a sword that throws the player in the direction of the enemy on every swing? Ranged attacks are mainly used to maintain a safe distance.
Troika lines - the regular damage meets par. The basic combo roughly matches DA/GF, and in exchange for never having a type advantage, never has a type disadvantage, so no problems there. The problem is the charge attack, which takes longer to charge than most swords and does about as much damage as a perfect winmillion hit (admittedly easier to use than winmillion's however). The charge attack also has a horrible area of effect (3x3 square centered 2 squares ahead of the user, compared to calibur's 5x5-ish centered on the user) and catapults the user forwards - and takes forever to use, leaving the player completely open in the middle of the group of enemies they just threw themselves into.
Sáb, 08/27/2011 - 23:33
#15
Heya
I made more adjustments, anyone have any new thoughts on other weapons and armor?
Mar, 09/06/2011 - 23:19
#16
More edits
I really think this thread ought to have some input, balance is a big part of this game!
Mié, 09/07/2011 - 01:58
#17
You left Irontech D out of
You left Irontech D out of the bomb balances. Also poison was fixed so take VV off your list (menders have a fun time team killing)... as it is actually quite useful now.
Mié, 09/07/2011 - 02:45
#18
FoV needs a compensation for damage due to masochism? Nah...
Well, it seems exceptionally powerful already.
Jue, 09/08/2011 - 00:52
#19
Alright
adjustments made...honestly, the Venom Veiler does not have enough going for it to make it a useful bomb, as of yet, compared to other bombs that out DPS it. Does the poison negatively affect the Jelly King?
Jue, 09/08/2011 - 01:49
#20
On the Antigua lines...
Well, I roll an Argent Peacemaker. Lemme tell you, I love that gun quite a bit. The gun has some of the fastest bullets in the game- that lets it still hit those dodgy devilites and Kats while staying at range to avoid their attacks, as well as hit silkwings in the middle of arena crowds. Then a six shot clip for spamability- if you're careful, you never get hit reloading. In particular, it turns Howletizers into a joke, since you can pepper them at range with your own projectiles while dodging theirs. Despite the damage resistances of Constructs, it still works okay on them, though the damage seems to be about 2/3 to 3/5 or so compared to Undead/Fiend, but it's still viable. Just takes a while. Wolvers I don't bother, as they teleport on T3, but it can actually hit them before they teleport (or dodge on T2). Don't bother using it on Gremlins or Slimes, pull out a sword instead.
Granted, it might only work because of my gear setup- My sword is an Acheron. The gun is great against the two things I can't hurt with the sword, and I have a Sinister Skelly Shield to go along with it. It might not have the same level of effectiveness in the eyes of someone with a different gear setup, that's for sure.
I'm not sure if I can say the same for the Blackhawk/Sentenza line, though, even if I haven't used it. Consider what the prime targets would be- Gremlins and Beasts. However, it's probably the only gun that can land a reliable hit on them since the bullets travel so fast, and it can hit wolvers and gemlins before they actually move for their dodge (knowing this based on the Argent). Party members would hate you since they'd be dodging all over the place, but it might be good solo, if you don't want to get close to gremlins. It would be good for taking down demos, thwackers and menders, but maybe not much else. Wolvers teleport on T3, and that can get you killed if you spam the gun. Nothing like getting flanked by two alpha wolvers mid bite.
TL; DR
Argent Peacemaker is good when paired with a shadow damage sword; Sentenza isn't good because of how it's main targets react to projectiles (but would cover the weaknesses of an elemental damage sword). The guns make it so that you're ready to attack any enemy provided you have the right sword, and the guns hit reliably because the bullets fly too fast for enemies to dodge before they hit. However, you sacrifice all around damage on other families for doing so. It seems fair enough to me- the gun has kept me alive against many shadow creatures. I don't think they need a buff- and they are useful. I'm not sure how the Sentenza can be improved against it's current main target issues, though. Maybe a slight damage buff to account for the extra dodging- or a new beast or gremlin enemy that the gun would actually be viable on.
Jue, 09/08/2011 - 02:27
#21
RE...
RE: Poison on JK
I THINK it causes damage to JK. But I will still need to confirm it with other players. Check the Poison thread that I made here in Arsenal once people have confirmed it. Even then, according to knowledgeable users, it is only causing 10% damage from heal if it does...
RE: Sentenza
Lockdown is coming up. I don't think everyone will be willing to pay an arm and a leg for piercing or shadow defense...
Lun, 09/12/2011 - 00:44
#22
Fern & Buck
I took your facts into consideration and changed the post. Fern, after reviewing the poison thread still say that the Poison bomb just does not do justice compared to other bombs, and worse, vs. Jelly King, the Vile Striker is still marginally better. I would need some opinions from people skilled in bombs to know if the Veiler has some other use.
Lun, 09/12/2011 - 03:14
#23
Yep, Poison as a status is still bad. :D
Well yeah, they confirmed that it just stops regen but not causes JK to kill himself...
Also healers trying to heal an ally causes only 10% damage of the heal amount to that ally.
(...but it's still now useful enough that I think of using the bomb when there's a healer around. Gremlin magic circle heal is ridiculous.)
With my alt, I would charge toxic atomizer during the JK rage mode and drop it where the boss is expected to stop spinning. Then Asc. Calibur attack spam during vulnerable period. A niche use, but IMO it's better than Vile Striker/DVS poor chance to poison per hit.
***
Also, a correction, in your Skelly Armor analysis you mention the competing set that has shadow resist and bonus vs undead. Should be Deadshot rather than Nameless.
Lun, 09/12/2011 - 05:10
#24
- ASI does not affect Bombs
- ASI does not affect Bombs at all.
__
And indeed, the Deadshot set is what has the Shadow defense + Undead DB. Nameless has ASI Guns: Med and Elemental defense.
Lun, 09/12/2011 - 22:15
#25
Corrections
Made. Kinda dumb of me to not catch the Nameless-Deadshot mistake!
Lun, 09/12/2011 - 22:50
#26
New Question:
Do the Dragon Scale and Divine Sets really weather the lack of Normal Defense?
Mar, 09/13/2011 - 01:21
#27
The dragon scale set doesn't
The dragon scale set doesn't really work out for the same reason most piercing defense armor doesn't, most sources of piercing damage are super telegraphed and best avoided so you run much less of a risk of getting surprised or of trying to shield through the damage. Also most melee hits, including the always dangerous alpha wolver assault, are part normal damage so the only damage you're really preventing is big arena style polyp spawns that break through your shield before you can take them down or the occasional jelly floor spike you don't see forming. I guess armor is for the attacks you don't see coming to shield which is most often ranged attacks which is currently made up of mostly elemental and some pierce with very little shadow and no normal, so maybe people that get tunnel vision might like it, but i doubt anyone gets hit by more pierce than normal damage in any given run.
The divine set is good at what most use it for which is mixing 1 piece onto their normal/elemental weapon set so they can hopefully weather some shadow damage or uncommon status effects with better all around defenses instead of making a dedicated set to swap into for every threat. As a stand alone set normal damage is never good to skip entirely, but in fiend strata your main threats are shadow damage and a variety of statuses from depth to depth so it excels there. Possibly more so than the dedicated fiend fighting valkyrie set on account of fiends not actually doing curse and fire coming from fire themed devilites and greavers, but there's also normal damage from overtimer melee attacks so maybe a mix would be best.
Mar, 09/13/2011 - 02:36
#28
Did Research
Plus what I have gotten as a response, I can't say that Dragonscale or Silvermail are worth it. Shame, really.
Mar, 09/27/2011 - 17:37
#29
Bump of justice!
I'd really like to say that this sums up a lot of my concerns, having just gotten a mercurial helm, which is far harder to get than a vog hat, I'm a bit more than disappointed to say that it doesn't even display the bouns it gets correctly! It shows it as an arrow down with 'increase' written next to it, and 10%, as seen in TF2's Attendant Set, is NOT overpowering in the least when it has drawbacks. At least make the items have 5% each, rather than end up giving you a 1ish% increase over others that does nothing. Other items as well, are underpowered and need some help, so please at consider this.
EDIT: And I'd like to say that autoguns could use a bit faster bullets as well, to add to the OP.
Mar, 10/11/2011 - 16:37
#30
dragon set purpose is vs.
dragon set purpose is vs. against beast, beast in t3 mostly deal piercing +elemental / status so I think it's really good set to run beast stratum .
I am a fan of prismatech alchemer gun line , I always bring nova driver to FSC , as it clear the room pretty fast . Prismatech got buff after early patch that have highest elemental damage amongst other alchemers, and they no longer have bonus vs.undead high like before. these make Prismatech beastly against construct and undead and its charge is bit OP imo, but i guess that's why I picked it over Polaris.
Mié, 10/12/2011 - 20:46
#31
Those pesky Devilites.
Why in the world would they make some cost less than others in terms of CE??? If it worked that way, everyone would aim for the higher priced ones. They (OOO) wanted us to experiment with the equipment and find out the ones we should stay away from and the ones we should flock to, instead of give it a level of usefulness and watch everyone use it everywhere. They should still lower energy prices though. . .
Stats extend beyond the bar. Ancient/Volcanic Plate Shield start maxed at Level 1 but should continue growing in strength nonetheless. There seems to be diminishing returns from increasing resistance, so the increase might not make a noticeable difference since it is already so high.
I would add to Ionized Salt Bomb that it is unreasonably slow to charge as it is the slowest bomb (and the only bomb that is so slow).
Also, Venom Veiler - Poison is not strong enough to justify its use. Then again, if it did have a noticeable effect it might be OP.
The Fang of Vog has a really exceptional charge attack, even better than the Leviathan. With the proper fire resistance it does minimal damage to one self.
What you say about Cryotech Alchemer is true, but the Ice Brandish line only freezes on charge attack and only with its explosions so accidentally unfreezing right after freezing is not common at all.