Regarding damage numbers
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 11:40
The other threads were getting a bit long so I'm starting a new one to ensure that our response isn't buried.
For context- In last night's patch we included a feature that removes numbers from comabt and replaces them with a color and shape indication of how effective your attacks are against a particular monster. There were many reasons for doing this, namely that Spiral Knights uses as much iconographic information as possible: party pads, block colors and shapes, weapon icons, etc. The goal is that anyone can understand how something works or will work in any language and with anybody.
Along those same lines, we always strive to remove that which would otherwise slow the experience in the Clockworks down in any way. One of those things could be scrutinizing over damage numbers or wondering if you're doing optimal damage. The new system lets you know if you're 'doing it right' or 'doing it wrong' pretty quickly and we are happy with how it's shaping up and will continue to develop it.
However, we understand that some of you prefer to see raw damage values or in any case enjoy seeing numbers pop out of your attacks. We will be adding damage values as toggle available in the options menu (pres Esc). Toggling it on will simply display damage values over top the existing hit flashes.
Thanks again for your concern.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:58
#2
Thanks so much for
Thanks so much for understanding, Nick. (And Three Rings)
But as a note, be more careful when doing changes that will change gameplay as much as something like this would. Instantly changing it, without asking for feedback of the community or any revert option will have some pretty bad results.
In general, this change would be something better for a casual player that focuses on fun, I guess (although I'm sure they wouldn't care about numbers either - Both would most likely be the same thing for them) - But in general online games, you'll be getting hardcore players that will care about their damage and all more than casual ones. Endgame even more, this one change would make a big difference, as it'd be pretty much impossible to know how effective this armor that boosts attack would be.
And a request: Please remove the shaking strong attacks often cause. This can be very troublesome when in large groups of monsters, even more on a full party.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 11:52
#3
Problem Solved
Perfect, exactly what I expected to happen. I really do love the quick responses and quick patches to fix any and all issues people seem to have!
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 11:54
#4
I'm glad that there's an
I'm glad that there's an option now. I haven't logged on to test the "colors" thing, but I really think I'd prefer numbers in this game.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 11:55
#5
Thank you so much, guys, and
Thank you so much, guys, and nick for posting this so soon!
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:09
#6
Yay
Now the color blind people are happy and the people who suffer from arithmophobia.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:27
#7
nick;
Thank you very much
nick;
Thank you very much for giving this option. That change single-handedly ensured that I'll remain a paying customer! I do, however, have another concern in this same vein.
Please enable this option for ALL relevant statistics in the game, primarily including defense. I do understand the desire to make this game intuitively understandable at a glance, but I for one feel lost without having an absolute measure to compare pieces of equipment against each other. As a relatively new player, I've been at a loss to determine *which* pieces of equipment would most benefit me. In general, I feel like a lot of the statistics in this game are needlessly obfuscated; is there any which in way you can expand the damage display toggle, or provide more advanced options?
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:34
#8
Agree agree agree. Is there
Agree agree agree. Is there any way we can get number representations for everything? I would be very thankful.
Mathcrafting is fun! :3
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:37
#9
This is why I have spent so
This is why I have spent so much time and money on this game; it has its flaws, but you guys LISTEN to your community. That's pretty inspiring to see in a world where devs usually don't give a rat's ass about certain things their customers want.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:42
#10
Thank you! ♥
I would appreciate the toggle option! I do enjoy seeing the damage numbers. The game feels incomplete without them. (At least in my own opinion.)
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:48
#11
Everything Kakelgis said,
Everything Kakelgis said, take to heart.
And don't forget, the hardcore players are here to help. Let us get some input on big changes.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:56
#12
Glad to hear! Now I can flex
Glad to hear! Now I can flex my internet muscles a little more. :D
Though seriously, always appreciate having the options, so thanks!
@Magnus: Same goes for the casual players! I think everyone can offer some form of constructive feedback, regardless of play style.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:58
#13
thanks
Thanks so much for letting us have the numbers!
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 15:04
#14
Awesome, thanks for
Awesome, thanks for listening. I was especially having a hard time decyphering the dual damage weapons, I'm not sure how to interpret a Large grey flash. lol
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 16:39
#15
... There's no such thing as
... There's no such thing as constructive criticism from casual players... What on Earth are you talking about?
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 17:55
#16
Tongue in cheek or not,
Tongue in cheek or not, hardcore does not necessarily mean better knowledge of design or intent~!
And I figure feedback from all angles is better than just some as well... oh well.
Fri, 03/25/2011 - 18:52
#17
One thing I think is missing
One thing I think is missing is a bit of Three Rings philosophy. One of the things that they've strived with in Y!PP is to hide as much of the raw numbers as possible into categories. I imagine that this influenced their decision to hide the numbers and not release other raw numbers.
Sat, 03/26/2011 - 00:55
#18
I would like to suggest
I would like to suggest changing the graphics for the damage level indicators to recognizable shapes with hard edges. The glowy-cloudy effects are cool looking, but when they're stacked on top of the glowy sword attack effect you just used and the glowy attack charge the monster is preparing, it becomes impossible to recognize a pale grey flash vs. a pale blue flash. Also, the gold stars look like they should cause the stun status effect, but they do not.
You could also use emoticons rather than numbers so players can instantly determine that they made a good hit, rather than running around for a while before they can reasonably guess that there are 3 levels, and that gold is better than blue is better than grey.
Sat, 03/26/2011 - 01:34
#19
Big, red slashes for massive
Big, red slashes for massive damage instead of happy tuity fruity stars!
Also, sounds are important. A sound for a stronger hit versus a weak hit is important. Just like the dinking sound when something is invulnerable.
Sat, 03/26/2011 - 08:14
#20
"You either make the game a
"You either make the game a fast paced, console styled action MMO, or you make it a regular, cute-looking, grindfest."
Even The Secret of Mana, the original cute grindfest game, had actual numbers for damage dealt.
I think the stats are absolutely necessary. I played a lot of Diablo 2 back in the day, and although I could get an intuitive sense of whether my equipment was sufficiently strong it was absolutely necessary to see raw numbers when comparing two weapons or pieces of armor against each other.
Sat, 03/26/2011 - 12:35
#21
I don't mind the change per
I don't mind the change per se. The problem is that I couldn't really tell what was happening. Was that a gray flash, or was that just the flash of my gun shot hitting the enemy? Ok, I think that's a flash, but was it gray or blue? I did a few tests, toggling the numbers on and off and tried to determine what was going on, and I still couldn't decipher the flashes.
Sun, 03/27/2011 - 06:34
#22
Irony...
This article was on Kotaku a few days ago...
http://kotaku.com/#!5785206/why-do-our-role+playing-games-still-need-numbers-everywhere
I find it ironic that so many people complained about a lack of numbers after I just read that article. I myself don't really mind the lack of numbers...heck, I didn't even notice them until everybody started complaining about them being gone already. I'm not a casual gamer, but I'm apparently not a hardcore gamer either by the general opinion. But I'm always that way with MMOs. Everybody is so worried about "doing it wrong!" that they get caught up in character builds and where to grind and all sorts of crap that controls the way they play the game rather than just playing it "their" way. I on the other hand just play the way I want and I don't care what popular opinion is...I play the game MY way.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 13:04
#23
"Everybody is so worried
"Everybody is so worried about "doing it wrong!" that they get caught up in character builds and where to grind and all sorts of crap that controls the way they play the game rather than just playing it "their" way."
Radz: That is "their" way to play the game. Some people like seeing numbers, it makes it more enjoyable for them, not necessarily worried about it. :)
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 14:06
#24
Right
Right, and that's fine by me. What I don't like is that people tend to push stuff down your throats and look down on somebody because they want to play the game their own way. I don't care how you play the game, just don't tell me how to play is all I'm saying.
Personally, I don't think the numbers are that important to Spiral Knights because we can't actually see how much life an enemy has. If there was a lifebar or current/max HP stat that showed as well, I could understand. As it stands, I prefer the Zelda style of slash 'em 'til they die! lol
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 14:29
#25
Zelda's a bit of a different
Zelda's a bit of a different beast. There's no equipment choices besides "good-better-best", and it's easy to tell when you've become more powerful as things die in one hit instead of two. Spiral Knights is a melee with dozens of enemies who five or six attacks to kill, damage is coming from three other players, and there's all kinds of subsystems like healing and status affecting the outcome.
I still stand by the example of "Is this guy getting healed too quickly or can I burn him down" as the flashes not communicating enough information to effectively make the choices that the game asks you to make.
I'm not in favor of numbers for the sake of numbers, but Spiral Knights is much easier to play and when you know exactly how much damage or healing is happening. Communicating that exactness doesn't have to be in the form of numerals, but the number system works fine.
Edit: Maybe "exactly" is an overstatement, but when I'm playing, I'm constantly making decisions like "My gun is critting against these guys, but it's only doing about half the damage my four-star sword could do. I think it's worth the risk of taking damage to get in close and melee." And that's fun, I think. I can't make that kind of call based on the current flashes.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 14:29
#26
Zelda though doesn't have the
Zelda though doesn't have the freedom as SK.
In Zelda, you have the Master Sword which happens to be stronger than any sword you have before that point. Now you could also get any stronger swords like the Tempered Sword and Golden Sword in A Link to the Past, or the Big Goron Sword in Ocarina of Time.
From any description or dialogue you can tell that whatever sword you have now is immediately stronger than whatever you had before, and you can even feel it one hit koing any enemies that come across your path.
In Spiral Knights, there's a variety of ways to play the game.
You can have the typical Sword+Gun or Sword+Bomb combo, but you can also go sword only, or gun only, or even bomb only.
You have a variety of armors that give you certain bonuses that may appeal to the player for maximizing defence at the cost of attack speed or even maximizing attack power in exchange for any practical defense stats.
Spiral Knights also scales your sword's power depending on what depth you're in.
Numbers are downright vital for a game such as this.
But it's great that Three Rings is giving an option to enable/disable damage values so that everyone is satisfied.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 17:21
#27
To play devil’s
To play devil’s advocate…
Numbers do not need to be there. When you look at a sword/gun/bomb in your inventory it doesn’t tell you that it’s going do XX to YY damage, it just gives you bars for damage type, speed, etc. Furthermore, you have no indication of how many hit points a particular monster has. When you consider those two points, the inclusion of exact numbers for damage seems pretty silly. I understand why they were there initially (so that the developers could make sure the weapons were doing the damage they were supposed to), but for normal gamer, they’re simply not needed.
That being said, the implementation of the “flashes” was seriously flawed. Even for a non-colorblind person like myself, it’s hard to distinguish what is a “good hit” versus a “bad hit” under the flash system. Different types of monsters further complicate the flash system, since different types of monsters can (and usually do) have different resistances, thus the same sword swing/gun shot/bomb could be a “good hit” for one monster, and a “bad hit” for another.
Or to put it more succinctly, right idea, wrong approach.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 17:33
#28
Zingman, how do you compare
Zingman, how do you compare the damage of something like the autogun to the damage of a blaster when you can't tell the actual damage?
FYI the autocannon does more damage if every shot hits even though it shows lower damage in bar form.
How do you judge the importance of a charge attack vs a regular for something like the cutter variants? How do you tell the importance of a three hit combo with a calibur variant?
While this game encourages casual play and discourages min/maxing, some of us take pleasure in knowing that we aren't making completely ineffectual choices in our play.
Also, numbers are fun.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 18:11
#29
My Point About "Doing It Wrong!"...
Ferox clearly demonstrates what I mean when I say people argue "you're doing it wrong!" While they don't specifically say "you're doing it wrong!", they are talking down about those who don't use numbers or the "proper" gear. Sucking the fun out of a game for the rest of us because they complain about HP, defense points, DPS, max/min...and then of course there is the blatant tone of disapproval in the phrase "completely ineffectual choices." Sounds like you're talking down to those who don't use numbers or worry so much about the tabletop basics of an rpg.
Again, I don't care how you play, just don't give me grief about the way I play.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 18:15
#30
Sticky
Couldn't you just sticky the topic since it's pretty important?
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 18:18
#31
Radz, who said I care at all
Radz, who said I care at all how you play? I have never, not once, said anything negative about anyone else's gear choice in or out of game.
However, I do derive personal satisfaction from knowing that I'm making intelligent choices or at the very least fully understanding the trade offs.
I *like* knowing how things work. I'm a tinkerer. Hiding the damage numbers from me would make me enjoy the game less (and did for the 16 or so hours where they were hidden).
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 18:49
#32
Since the enemies don't have
Since the enemies don't have some sort of lifebar/HP count, I could care less about numbers. Bethesda did fine without numbers in Oblivion/Fallout(Although the enemies had life bars), so I don't see what all the commotion was all about since we don't know much of the enemy's stats.
Nonetheless, I'm glad numbers are back, so at least before I fight Vanaduke, I can call for a number cruncher in the party who will hopefully give us a percentage higher than 32.3333% (repeating, of course).
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 18:59
#33
rawr
Fallout has numbers...at least static numbers on the weapons...that changed based on the condition. Same for Oblivion I believe, but yeah none popping up. Static numbers somewhere are always nice. You can figure out roughly how much hp a monster has from them. The numbers also help you figure out what you want, like to see if you're doing more with one weapon than the other. I'm ADHD and it's much easier for me to figure out stuff with a number rather than a flash, and Lord knows I need all the help I can get :P
P.S. A PizzaShark sounds absolutely terrifying, yet delicious.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 19:21
#34
Tone
The point is not that you SAY things, but your attitude and choice of words are subtly offensive. Yes, I actually take a mild amount of offense when you say things like my choices are "ineffective" or that your choices are "intelligent." You make it sound like anyone who doesn't make those decisions are less intelligent than those who do. Give me the numbers and, yes, I could make a better informed and "intelligent" decision, but without the numbers I make a judgement call. I think it makes things more fun actually. Makes things less predictable and more true to life in that respect.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 19:26
#35
Weapons aren't balanced, they
Weapons aren't balanced, they will never be balanced.
Balance, in this game, is like an eternal struggle between players and developers.
Because of this, some people feel like they need these numbers because they need to be able to be as effective as possible and that is the only thing in the game that brings them joy.
Their perception that they are better than somebody else.
That's all those numbers are.
Arguing about it won't get you anywhere.
You're practically just trolling yourself at this point.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 19:55
#36
o.o
To each their own. Like the numbers, awesome. Don't like the numbers, also awesome. Just play. No need to get so touchy on either side of things. There shouldn't even really be a side. I don't need the numbers because I think I'm better than anyone else. On the contrary, I need the numbers because I am quite fail. I want to help my team as much as possible. The numbers help me. Not everyone that likes numbers is selfish, and not everyone that doesn't like numbers is thoughtless of self. So it's not very nice to generalize anyone as such. I like the game, with or without numbers. If it had no numbers I would still play. If it had only numbers I would still play. Doesn't matter, and it shouldn't. Why is everyone getting so touchy? I don't know about you guys, but I don't like confrontation. I don't mean to sound like I'm judging, I just don't understand the hostility and am trying to understand.
I get what Radz is saying. Tone is a very palpable thing, and can be ill perceived - especially on the Internet. However, hostility only begets hostility. Your statement also has the "mightier than thou" tone, even though you bring up a legitimate point.
Most of the posts on this thread, including mine, are not on topic. Honestly, this thread should have been sticked and locked, or put in the Announcements section. It was just meant to inform of the toggle. Not be a breeding pit for needless flame wars. Seriously people. Age, act it.
Haters are going to hate. I'm not gonna look at this topic anymore. It makes me sad.
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 20:41
#37
In essence Ferox, by doing
In essence Ferox, by doing the exact same thing you’re doing, I’m just skipping unneeded steps.
In a nutshell, what you (and/or your friends are/were doing) is trying out various weapons. You see that weapon number one does X damage per hit and has a 3-hit combo and therefore does a total damage of 3X. You also see that weapon number two does Y damage, which is less than weapon one, but it has a 10-hit combo, and therefore does a total damage of 10Y. You compare 10Y to 3X and determine that weapon one/two is the better choice since it does the most damage.
In comparison, what I was doing was trying out various weapons. In comparing weapon one to weapon two, I determine that I had an easier time killing monsters with weapon one versus weapon two, therefore I decide to use weapon two – period.
I’m reaching the same point as you; I’m just doing it without obsessing about the numbers.
On a site note, can you (or anyone else for that matter) give an good approximation for how much HP Vanaduke has? The number crunchers should have a good approximation for his HP at this point. If they don’t then well, what’s the point of number crunching?
Mon, 03/28/2011 - 23:38
#38
I don't really care about the
I don't really care about the numbers one way or the other.
However, comparisons by the average amount of hitting power for a weapon is most useful right now in numeric form. The problem I had with the flashes is that they could get lost easily in the insanity of a melee battle because there's dust/halo/etc effects everywhere. Especially if you're a bomb-heavy knight. Whereas when a number shows up, you know it is for sure coming only from a couple places---either your sword/gun/bomb hitting things, or that darn healy butterfly/gremlin.
That's why the effects don't work for me as they are right now. If there was a distinct effect it would help. The stars may be cheezy to indicate a powerful hit on the weak point of an enemy, but they're distinct; whereas the difference between a gray and a blue flash is less discernible and yet in some ways more vital to know.
There's also the discrepancy between weapons of different levels; for instance, while a searing edge at level 3 can deal heavy damage to a zombie complete with stars, a level 1 Kamarin will deal about the same amount of damage even though it's just gray flashes. This is important to know because sometimes one has to prioritize one type of enemy and one doesn't necessarily have time to switch back to the most ideal weapon for the other type whilst in melee between the two.
Tue, 03/29/2011 - 07:45
#39
You're Right Blink
Blink, you're right that not all people who use numbers talk down to people. I never intended a broad generalization like that. I only meant that I don't like it when those type of people shove their opinions down my throat...directly OR subtly. I also never intended to be hostile, but rather was trying to make a point.
Tue, 03/29/2011 - 08:08
#40
now were talking
grate job you guys! you guys Rock! i continue saying i love your game!
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 01:50
#41
The options already present
The options already present in the game, woot!
Whoo! Thats good to hear! Glad damage numbers will at least be a toggleable option. Thank you for the information! I knew you guys would fix it! B)