Spiral Knights - Mineral-Stratum relationship data

Mineral-Stratum relationship data

22 replies [Last post]

Wed, 04/06/2011 - 13:06

AdmiralTails

Legacy Username

Ok, so as tends to come up in discussion over the stratum types and their general unbalancedness, we really don't know much about what mineral ratios give what stratums, so, I've decided to start collecting said data:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhPYmdnPan5hdDNncGRIQWFYZ2dmR0R...

I play very frequently, and so will be collecting this data by myself, but this doesn't mean you can't help. Try to get stratums to have ratios differing from these, allowing more diverse data sooner, Guild Collaboration in doing this would be useful.

-Tails-San

Wed, 04/06/2011 - 14:36

machallboyd

Legacy Username

Looks like the leading

Looks like the leading hypothesis is that the top two minerals determine the stratum. The spreadsheet data supports that so far.

Freeze = blue and green
Beast = green and red
Slime = yellow and green

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Gate_construction#How_Minerals_Affect_Stra...

Wed, 04/06/2011 - 14:51

machallboyd

Legacy Username

However, Sapphire Skull 1 is

However, Sapphire Skull 1 is currently showing

Undead = purple and green

red = 7698
green = 10313
blue = 8640
yellow = 9461
purple - 10507

So I think maybe that wiki chart is not correct. Guess we'll see as more data comes in.

Wed, 04/06/2011 - 18:25

Arimal

I was starting do this very

I was starting do this very thing but as your already way ahead of me...need any help?

Thu, 04/07/2011 - 00:29

machallboyd

Legacy Username

Ok, a bunch of them got

Ok, a bunch of them got changed.

I was thinking I saw a pattern, but I'm not sure in the end.

Silver Knight has a green and yellow gate that's beast. Red is the third highest. I expected slime. It has a slime strata just above it.
Sapphire Skull has a green and purple that's slime. Yellow is third highest. I expected undead. It has an undead strata just above it.
Onyx Queen has a green and yellow that's shock. Blue is third highest. I expected slime. It has a slime strata just above it.

It seemed like rather than have two of the same strata in a row, it ignores the second-highest mineral to form the strata and uses the third highest instead.

Except:

Onyx Queen has a green and yellow that's construct. Purple is third highest. I expected slime. It has a freeze level just above it.

I don't know why this one wouldn't be regular slime. Back to the drawing board?

Thu, 04/07/2011 - 02:00

Magnus

Legacy Username

http://wiki.spiralknights.com

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Crysbear

These were correct circa end of preview event. The devs have been playing with the gates and forcing them to different stratums, so don't go by the mineral counts in them currently.

Thu, 04/07/2011 - 08:46

AdmiralTails

Legacy Username

Alloys

Yeah, some of the stratums were modified by the admins, you can tell which ones by looking at where it says "Alloy count", if it is not 0, that data is invalid, and will not be put on my spreadsheet UNLESS I got the chance to record the original stratum before it was changed, in which case it will show the pre-change stratum type.

This is why my spreadsheet show far more slime stratums in Coral pawn and Onyx Queen than there are if you look at them in-game.

Thu, 04/07/2011 - 10:48

machallboyd

Legacy Username

I don't think I get what the

I don't think I get what the formulas mean.

Slime*=Valestone > Moonstone + Luminite

It looks like there has to be more valestone than the sum of moonstone and luminite, but clearly that's not the case.

Does it mean luminite has to be the highest mineral count while there's more valestone than moonstone?

Thu, 04/07/2011 - 14:49

Magnus

Legacy Username

It means a majority of

It means a majority of Valestone, with Moonstone and Luminite following up.

Thu, 04/07/2011 - 22:56

Ekkosangen

Legacy Username

Magnus - It's been proven

Magnus - It's been proven that the quantities of Moonstone and Luminite matter when Valestone is the majority.

Valestone > Luminite > Moonstone is a Slime stratum
Valestone > Moonstone > Luminite is a Freeze stratum.

See: Silver Knight strata 1 and 2. This should prove, with very little doubt, that the stratum theme is determined by ranking the top three mineral counts.

Sat, 04/09/2011 - 17:44

#10

AdmiralTails

Legacy Username

Still too much Valestone =/

Valestone has only once dropped below 23% of a gate, and only twice not been the most prevalent mineral. The lack of horizontal balance may be partially to blame, Tier two consists predominantly of Freeze stratums, for example.

Sat, 04/09/2011 - 18:21

#11

Tahg

Legacy Username

Can someone tell me exactly

Can someone tell me exactly what Alloy count means? Implied from earlier in the thread this is when a Dev changes the type of the level? I''m noticing in my data the couple of levels with alloys have nonstandard types.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 11:14

#12

AdmiralTails

Legacy Username

That is correct

Yeah, Alloy count means that the admins changed the stratum types.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 17:00

#13

Shockfrost

Legacy Username

Submitted for your approval

I think there's a slight wrench visible right now.

In order of mineral density, with no alloys counted.

GPYUR -> Slime (Sapphire Skull)
GYURP -> Slime (Silver Knight)
GYRUP -> Beast (Amber Lion)

In my opinion, this suggests that simple order of resource does not necessarily demonstrate stratum type.
Also, I want to observe that the "stratum type" doesn't very well describe the created FLOORS or the enemies or objects present in those floors.

In other words, I am strongly concerned we are focusing on the wrong thing.
We should continue to observe for statistical correlations here, but I think we need to start looking elsewhere for answers also.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 17:12

#14

Dragonmagic

Legacy Username

A less/more straightforward solution

Or (Please don't hate me for this) there is another random variable designed to throw things off (not that I have any idea what it might be), which might say, weight moonstone more than the others in stratum generation. I'm no expert, but it's a possibility. (Again, I have no idea how true this is/isn't)

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 23:45

#15

Ekkosangen

Legacy Username

Re: Shockfrost

Shockfrost- Your "wrench" suggests nothing. Green/Yellow/Red has been consistently beast for the entirety of Amber Lion, Green/Yellow/Blue was consistently slime on Onyx Queen, and Green/Purple/Yellow was slime twice in a row on Sapphire Skull. All of these combinations have been tested with the two remaining minerals swapped. The 2 least prevalent minerals have nothing to do with the stratum theme.

As far as how floors are created, the floor generation stuff is an entirely new beast that will probably turn up as random. We'll get to it eventually, but I don't see an investigation on that lasting more than a few gate cycles. However, you are very much informed of what kind of monsters you will be fighting when you look at the stratum's theme. A beast stratum is more likely to contain beast floors, a Slime stratum is more likely to contain slime floors, and so on. Elemental strata will contain floors of all kinds, all aligned to that element.

I am confident that we are not focusing on the wrong thing. I don't get why people are trying to find something whimsically complex when it's as simple as 60 permutations divided evenly among the 10 stratum themes.

Dragonmagic - Consistency has been a trend with the current theory, swapping the two least-prevalent minerals has never changed the outcome of a stratum theme.

Mon, 04/11/2011 - 02:41

#16

Shockfrost

Legacy Username

The catch is, What value

The catch is,

What value does this small slice of information hold if we don't know what it means?
It's great that we can look at the 3 most common elements and say to ourselves "The symbol that will appear is _____"
Even assuming we can assign exactly six permutations to each element...
If we don't know what this bodes for the realm overall, the knowledge has no attached meaning.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 07:59

#17

AdmiralTails

Legacy Username

O.o

Ok, since the last update, all of Ruby Rook's beast stratums became fiend without becoming alloys, not sure what's going on, but I'm thinking they may have changed what combinations give what. I have marked this on my chart, and will now be marking alloys (though only through notes, the column will show the non-alloy type)

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 09:26

#18

Ekkosangen

Legacy Username

Gate confusion, oy

It's happened with Jade Sun as well, the combination on stratum 1 is a highly-proven Beast (now showing up as fiend) but is showing up as Undead. Presumably the "behind the scenes features" they worked on the other day included some changes to how gates work that might have completely nullified what we've seen up to now. I'll keep a hopeful outlook that it's just temporary changes to allow the mineral distribution to settle some more, as I've noticed Valestone has been dropping lately and the combination for beast has shown up on diamond bishop without problems.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 11:21

#19

AdmiralTails

Legacy Username

This isn't specificly on the topic, but I noticed that it no longer costs resources to deposit into stratums other than the current focus, making manipulation of these things MUCH more viable.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 16:11

#20

Gyre-Of-Guile

Developer

stratums, themes, and you

The stratums with alloys are indeed ones where we've forced a change.

Also with last night's update we changed a small thing in the formula, but it ended up having a big effect on Ruby Rook. As noted, the Beast stratums got changed to Fiend. We haven't yet fixed this with alloys, but I think people are beasted-out anyway so we might just keep it like that.

It looks like we're going to lay all this speculation to rest: in an upcoming update the mineral "formulas" will be explained in-game. Sorry if we're spoiling the fun of figuring it out for yourselves.

And yes: it no longer costs crowns to deposit to any stratum; the lower ones just don't pay as well. Hopefully that juices things up a bit.

Finally- we still might change more. Boosting is rarely used, and for good reason: understanding is low and cost is high. Changing that is further out, but on our list.

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 08:05

#21

Gyre-Of-Guile

Developer

Ruby Rook

I made another change last night that ended up further tweaking Ruby Rook.

Now it's very different!

What do you think? Keep it like it is, or return it to its Beasty roots?

Fri, 04/15/2011 - 08:13

#22

kakelgis

Legacy Username

I'm pretty sure everyone

I'm pretty sure everyone would preffer it with that vast variety of stratums, rather than just a bunch of beasts or fiends.

To be honest, instead of changing only one or two stratums per gate, you guys should have been changing at least four - In the past week, every damn T3 avaible has been filled with Jigsaw Valley and beast stratums. It's getting repetitive, and some materials have been harder to obtain. (though most can obtained with tokens, but it takes a while to save up enough tokens for the rarer materials)

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Mineral-Stratum relationship data