Remove Energy
Sat, 04/09/2011 - 05:46
What's the point in it? It just limits the amount of time you can play the game, which is obviously bad.
I've seen this in other games, which is pretty much the reason those games die out due to people getting frustrated with only being to play for 1 hour a day; it is by far the most counter-productive mechanic that you could possibly put into an MMO.
Sat, 04/09/2011 - 07:58
#2
In response to this determining a successful game or not
Two words: Facebook Games.
Sat, 04/09/2011 - 16:32
#3
Kingdom of Loathing, an MMO I
Kingdom of Loathing, an MMO I used to play for several years, had an even more draconian version of the energy system where you could not even buy more energy. Spiral Knights, by contrast, offers you plenty of runs if you buy energy and even more if you reach higher tiers and make a habit of buying energy off the exchanger.
The idea that energy will kill Spiral Knights is unfounded.
Use your energy effectively by avoiding getting killed and rezzing party members to limit your energy revives. Clear each floor carefully so you get the maximum amount of treasure. Upgrade items on days you don't have an hour to kill running a dungeon. Besides serving as a profit vector for the devs, the energy system serves to reward skilled play over players who would throw extra hours at the game to progress.
Sat, 04/09/2011 - 23:48
#4
Two words: Facebook
Two words: Facebook Games.
Problem is, Spiral Knights isn't a Facebook game. Nor is it remotely like any of them. Facebook games don't require quick reaction times, real-time strategy, or any kind of actual gaming skill. Facebook games are for those people who just want a little something extra to fill a few minutes of time every day. The players who want those types of games and the players who play games like Spiral Knights don't have much overlap. The action in Spiral Knights is way too intense for those kinds of players, and anyone who enjoys this type of gameplay is going to want to play way more than 100 energy can give you in a day.
Kingdom of Loathing, an MMO I used to play for several years, had an even more draconian version of the energy system where you could not even buy more energy.
I played KoL for a couple weeks. Calling it an MMO is a joke at best. It was an OK game, but it was nothing like an MMO. Also note where I only played it for a couple weeks. And also note that it's a laid-back browser game a lot more like Facebook games than SK.
The idea that energy will kill Spiral Knights is unfounded.
Wait and see. In a month from now, you'll begin to understand... if you're still playing.
Use your energy effectively by avoiding getting killed and rezzing party members to limit your energy revives. Clear each floor carefully so you get the maximum amount of treasure. Upgrade items on days you don't have an hour to kill running a dungeon. Besides serving as a profit vector for the devs, the energy system serves to reward skilled play over players who would throw extra hours at the game to progress.
Ok, so you honestly are expecting players to be content with the 100 mist tank energy every 24 hours? You might be content with that, but I guarantee you the vast majority won't be. I can't see more than one or two hundred (if even that many) players sticking around for that for more than a month or two.
Sorry bud, but without some sweeping changes this game is doomed.
Sat, 04/09/2011 - 23:51
#5
You know, if the game was
You know, if the game was doomed, it wouldn't have launched, because during the preview—which lasted for months and months—energy worked the same way. Some of the people who still play for free on the limited mist supply were present during the preview as well.
If you can't deal with it, then perhaps this game isn't for you. But you aren't everybody, not by a long shot.
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 00:05
#6
Lots of games have launched
Lots of games have launched that were doomed from the start.
It takes money to keep servers running. It takes enough players to provide that money. For some reason they seem to think they'll get enough players once it's released to provide that funding. They're wrong.
There's a reason you don't see successful MMOs following this model.
Either way though, in the long run it won't matter to me because if they continue down this path I'll be done with this game in another week or two. However it does make me a bit sad because it is a fun game, just not $30+ a month fun. So I'm posting on the forums in hopes that they'll do what they need to save their game and keep myself and other players around. I'm not holding my breath though.
Edit: Please note that I'm not with the OP on just eliminating energy. If you really want to see what I think about it, see this thread:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/2683#comment-15272
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 01:16
#7
>Three rings takes 4 years to
>Three rings takes 4 years to make a game
>Suggestion: Hey guys, how about you don't make any profit out of this game?
God damn communists.
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 02:15
#8
Funny Story About That...
...me and a friend have been playing side-by-side for the past few days, and we can do a good dungeon run (to the Terminals) in 60 energy, and make enough to (*gasp*) buy 100 crystal energy.
Funnily enough, the system works.
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 02:24
#9
Hmm
How about we think before we post suggestions.
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 06:34
#10
I played KoL for a couple
I played KoL for a couple weeks. Calling it an MMO is a joke at best. It was an OK game, but it was nothing like an MMO. Also note where I only played it for a couple weeks. And also note that it's a laid-back browser game a lot more like Facebook games than SK.
Kingdom of Loathing has been running successfully for more than eight years now. It has an extremely dedicated fan base, and has steadily been pulling in new players. The energy system is not what will kill it - it is the fact that it is eight years old and most players have seen and done everything save for the trickle of new content. It is a proven example that the limited play per day option works and can be largely successful. And on top of that, KoL's energy system is rather draconian compared to Spiral Knights. SK lets you buy more energy when you like, so you can have a marathon weekend play schedule for only five dollars. KoL kicks you out and won't let you come back until the next day.
The limited play system will turn off a large portion of potential players, those people who wish to pour large numbers of hours into the game over short periods of consecutive days. But, those players are replaced by players who enjoy skill-based games where careful play over a small amount of time results in faster progress. Kingdom of Loathing demonstrated this with a legion of dedicated speed runners who learned the game inside-out and could complete quests in record times. World of Warcraft could have never supported these kinds of players. This is why I enjoy Spiral Knights. The fact that I am better at the game than other players means I am rewarded, as opposed to World of Warcraft where playing slightly better than another player is meaningless if that other player just plays another hour longer than I do.
The energy system was applied over the beta period, which was several months long. The game did well and grew during this period.
The suggestion that the energy system will kill Spiral Knights is unfounded.
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 12:31
#11
conjh13
God Wars Online is a 3d MMO on Facebook. So is Wonderland Online (I haven't played that one). But more "serious" games are coming onto Facebook, not everything on there is Mafia Wars or FarmVille. And I expect more to do so since "real" gaming companies are slowly starting to notice the market for microtransactions. But that's not actually the point, all of those facebook games, 2d, 3d, or text based, they run on people who give into microtransactions for more time, that's what this game runs on as well. So energy isn't what I see killing this game, I do see it as a deterrent though for someone just starting out should prices head into the 10k range and they don't wanna pay, but I don't see it as a killer.
Sun, 04/10/2011 - 15:24
#12
Suggestion: How bout you go
Suggestion: How bout you go spend $10-20 on this game instead of whining
Thats like the price of a movie with popcorn, except it'll last longer in SK
I would go buy it, but Im still in high school, and my parents don't like the idea of paying for videogames like this(SO UNFAIR)
Anyways, if you want a fun game, that would only last for a week at minimum from lack of profits
Dont suggest it, we like the game, the system works, end of story
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 06:41
#13
Economize and you'll be fine
I have more energy now than when I started, buying and selling gear and materials is so helpful, besides the fact that clearing a tier gives you more than enough crowns for 100 more CE without actually using up 100 CE.
I have never ever had to stop playing because I was out of energy. I have put a total of $10 into this game and honestly they deserve more for what a great game it is. I honestly wouldn't have had to put any in the way I have managed my CE, if you are smart about it, you'll never ever have an issue playing or enjoying this game to its fullest.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 06:45
#14
but...
but if people were allowed to play this game non stop then they could finish this in a matter of days.
THAT would kill the game
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 07:14
#15
This is Redonkulous.
I've put in about 3-5 hours a day since the prerelease weekend and not once have I had to quit playing for lack of ce. If anything is annoying me about this game so far it's how much people complain about ce, it's really starting to harsh my game buzz. These repetitive discussions of the games economics are reaching spam levels and I herby request a forum feature to filter all your drivel away.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 09:57
#16
im so sick of the doom and
im so sick of the doom and gloom from players who are hating on the CE system. if you cant figure out how to make the most of your ME and buy CE off the market, you're an idiot. you can play the game for hours a day, at any tier level, if you know what you're doing. if the CE market becomes unreasonably high, then you can start complaining. but right now, its totally doable.
so if you cant do it, youre doing it wrong. beggars cant be chosers, and people shouldnt complain about free to play games that absolutely can be played for free.
alternatively, you might just need to get a life. you can play enough hours in the day, take a break, and play again tomorrow. and by playing every hour of every day, you're burning through the games content faster than intended. which then leads to you complaining about the lack of new enemies / bosses / levels / whatever other crap is GOING to be implemented in the future but youre already DEMANDING (from again, mind you, a free to play game) a week or two into public release.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 10:44
#17
I doubt SK will lose a single
I doubt SK will lose a single player due to energy. The only way you can run out of energy is if you die so much that you are not able to get past the first or second level in. Another thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that a new player starts off with 200 energy due to the extra mist tank. So with 200 energy, if someone can't even make 3.3k, they're not quitting because they ran out of energy, they're quitting because this game is too difficult for them.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 11:17
#18
Too difficult of a grind for new players
Even though someone *can* make 3.3k with their first 200 ME, they're much more likely to want to craft or explore things. I think that making the free ME more easily accessible or the gate costs more forgiving would do a great deal in making it more easy for new players to get into the game.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 11:31
#19
lets see:
1 star crafting: 10
lets see:
1 star crafting: 10 ME
2 star crafting: 50 ME
3 star crafting: 100 ME
tier 1: 6 paid floors - 60 ME
tier 2: 8 paid floors (i think, right?) - 80 ME
on your first day you could potentially gear yourself up to 4 1-star equips (though you can't be too picky about which items youre selecting), without even buying CE. throw in the mist tank and consider buying CE from market, and you might have a few 2 star items and open up tier 2 in one day.
adventure for a few days doing t1 runs, maybe alittle t2. pace yourself. tier 2 will probably take awhile, but you'll be able to explore different gates and level types. acquire mats, recipes. buy CE and save for later.
this is not really that hard or unreasonable at all. dont waste CE on stupid things (revives, paid treasure doors, danger rooms -- you can't afford them early on and you won't survive the danger rooms)
also, adventure with some people who know what theyre doing. look at the wiki a bit first before starting to play. browse the forum. the more you know about how the game works, the less misteps you'll make in your first few days.
not hard to get into at all.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 11:37
#20
my post was meant to reflect
my post was meant to reflect that you can do most of that casually, without heavy grinding. and in a way, isn't exploring going to net the same results as grinding? more mats/crowns/heat.
someone had suggested that the gate prices change as you level up to the next tier, and I'd be cool with that myself (as long as tier 3 was still viable using ME) -- so once youre tier 2 the tier 1 elevators would cost you more, but before you reached tier 2 theyd be a lower than normal price. its a good idea.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 11:39
#21
Crafting doesn't stop you
Crafting doesn't stop you from playing. Crafting 2* gear is extremely cheap, like 3k net price, and even if you somehow can't afford it, you can craft at the end of the day instead of at the beginning.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 11:47
#22
It doesn't need to be
It doesn't need to be removed, but it does need to be tweaked.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 18:31
#23
heres a suggestion buy some
heres a suggestion buy some energy and support the game... qq F2P f*** are just pitiful.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 18:48
#24
Uh huh.
As if elitist P2P
Uh huh.
As if elitist P2P players are any better.
Fri, 04/15/2011 - 22:29
#25
Hnhh...
I haven't paid real money yet, and I can play unlimited amounts per day (well, not limited by energy, that's for sure), and I'm one piece of armor away from being able to get into Tier-3. Energy isn't going anywhere, anyways, so this whole thread is pointless. Energy is the payment model for the game. -If- Energy went away completely, they'd have to switch to a less profitable subscribe-or-don't-play model or an annoying and probably -even less- profitable than subscription, placed-advertisement, subscribe to not see.
That's just what I need, a commercial popping up and interrupting my play every 20 minutes... ehh, well, and even if you do prefer, it's still not the payment model the company chose and they had good reasons for choosing it. They aren't going to simply say 'oh, yeah, we'll remove energy... everyone can play for free all the time and we'll not worry about making money!' and they aren't going to change their carefully developed payment structure either.
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 03:18
#26
Sure
"I haven't paid real money yet, and I can play unlimited amounts per day"
I too, can play unlimited amounts per day. Still, that leaves me with about 50 Crowns profit per run to buy recipes, so by the time I would have enough Crowns to buy something with this 100CE price (about 3,550), the price will be about 5,000 anyway.
Here are some stats I had written in another thread to back up my point =p
Current 100CE cost: 3,550
Current CE cost per tier run: 2840
20 Tier 1 runs: 2,847 Crown average per run - 7 Crown profit
36 Tier 2 runs: 3,322 Crown average per run - 482 Crown profit
0 Tier 3 runs
These runs are all solo with 0 deaths.
5,500 + 15,000 Crowns for the recipes for each slot of gear to get into Tier 3. Not taking into account the Energy and Crown cost required for alchemy.
So, it looks like I can farm Tier 2 for a year and maybe afford a 4* Sword :)
JK, soon it will be 9,000 Crowns per CE and in a year this terrible system will have been rehauled.
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 06:35
#27
@moxay
crowns gained are going to vary from run to run, your numbers are complete BS. i earn way more on a tier 2 run, and tier 1 can be more profitable too.
- learn what levels are profitable, and use the clockwork shifts to steer yourself toward those.
- sell your extra mats
- use your recipes to craft things for other players
- quit whining
I solo exclusively. I have two 3* swords, a 4* helm, and 2* everything else for now. I bought everything I own, by myself, no help from guild or other players. I haven't paid a time. I have 1600 CE, 20k crowns, and its been live for about two weeks and I haven't even played every day. I highly doubt it will take me a year to get to tier 2. And the only reason some of my gear is still 2* is that I couldn't decide what I wanted.
so again, doing it wrong.
HOWEVER if the current market rates get up that high, it is going to be really hard for people to get anywhere without grinding off ME to buy CE to use later on, and then yes, things may need to be adjusted to prevent players from giving up.
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 06:39
#28
@djbitch
"your numbers are complete BS"
Write your own numbers down. You will see
"learn what levels are profitable, and use the clockwork shifts to steer yourself toward those"
Sit around for hours not playing the game, waiting for it to give me resources? That's kinda the problem in the first place
"HOWEVER if the current market rates get up that high, it is going to be really hard for people to get anywhere without grinding off ME to buy CE to use later on, and then yes, things may need to be adjusted to prevent players from giving up."
Thanks for attempting to argue against me then summing up your post with my exact point <3
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 06:51
#29
You've failed to account for
You've failed to account for the free 100 ME you get each day. That's 100 free energy to convert into pure profit.
I have no idea how you're earning only 3,000 crowns from a T2 run. I average 7,000 without selling any materials (the stratum crystals are another 200-400 crowns).
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 06:59
#30
@moxay
then why dont you just shut up and quit playing then.
i pay attention to my numbers every time. it doesnt take all that long to wait for a shift when youre one spot away from an arena or something else profitable. i make at least 3K-4K on a tier 1 run, if not more. sometimes less, but the average is higher. tier 2 is even more profitable. and like SirNiko said, anything done using the 100 ME you get daily for free is profit. and you can still churn out additional profit by buying CE off the market.
my problem is that players like you want to sit around, complain all day, and not conrtibute anything to the developers except bitching. you want a fix for the CE market? all the players who whine can quit and bring down demand. people will still uy CE when you're gone. less demand will bring the market price down. problem solved.
you can sit around and speculate what the market price is going to become, but until it actually does, theres nothing to complain about. your arguments might be valid in the future, but they dont hold water now, so really, shut it.
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 09:36
#31
Exactly
"in the future"
Again, you have agreed with me that, in the future, the CE prices will become a problem
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 09:45
#32
No -- I agreed that your
No -- I agreed that your concerns MIGHT be valid in the future (and I don't agree with your solution by any means), IF the CE prices rise that high... which is NOT the same as saying they WILL be valid / that high, ever.
I don't know what the CE is going to cost a month from now, and neither do you, really. I'm saying hold your complaints for if/when the time comes, but I'm not saying its definitely going to. I am for some changes to help Tier 1 players deal with energy, but I don't believe the system needs to be removed.
So stop taking small portions of my statements to make it sounds like I agree with you.
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 14:14
#33
WHUT?
"I agree with you"
Sorry what?
H3h3
But yeah I don't mean literally REMOVE Energy.. but IMO it does definitely need some changes
Sat, 04/16/2011 - 14:47
#34
So that OOO gets no profit of
So that OOO gets no profit of the game, so they have to shut the entire thing down?
yeah.. thats a good idea right there..
Quit bitching or quit playing..
Sat, 06/11/2011 - 20:38
#35
I have been playing this game
I have been playing this game for around 2 months consistently and have a couple things to say about this issue.
1. everyone I have got to join the game "irl friends or co-workers" have quit within 3-4 days due to energy
2. The player-base would SIGNIFICANTLY rise by at least DOUBLE if they took away the energy costs to use the lifts and instead just used it for crafting *3 and above recipes and increased the prices for doing so.
3. You cannot play for very long UNLESS you are in a good Guild anymore, the AVERAGE person used to be able to play/progress at a fair pace when energy was around 5000-5500 crowns because you made roughly 6000-6500 on an AVERAGE t2 run.
4. Yes you CAN essentially make it with CE at just under 7000 but like I mentioned above, you need a good guild and/or active friends list so you can skip the less profitable earlier depths, if you do a normal start to finish run you will most likely come up slightly short or have JUST enough crowns to continue playing depending on how many are in your group. If you solo, duo, or three-man it you will NOT have enough to continue and must purchase with money to keep playing or wait until the next day and hope for better luck.
I highlighted a few KEY words that help to clarify my points. I know SOME people will be able to play consistently for hours in a day without having to spend a dime but at least 9/10 won't be able too, I am happy for you but remember that once the CE price reaches over 8000 not even you will be able to keep it up.
So what I'm getting at is something needs to be done or this game will essentially become Pay-to-play with a 1-hour free trial every 24 hours, last time I checked even WoW had a better free trial than that.
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 03:45
#36
gonna throw it out there and
gonna throw it out there and say that energy was 20k per 100 during preview, and the game did not die from it
also, capitalism, ho!
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 04:15
#37
@ EVERYONE WHOS WHINING
Mist is for F2P and controls your game time which extends your time spent playing the game overall those who buy CE (I used to) are just asking for a little extra time and plus CE for cash is cheap $2.50 for 750 CE? sounds like a @#$%ing bargin thats more than enough to get by for weeks you people just dont know what or how to invest if you got rid of energy people would just blitz the game and beat it in 2 days flat and never play again mist energy extends gameplay and keeps F2P players in check. simple and for you kids crying about CE costs you can convert ME to CE when you craft . its all about patience and being smart its not bad its great
Energy is what makes Spiral Knights,Spiral knights. leave it alone
thread over
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 07:49
#38
Remove Energy
"Remove Energy" ... the silliest idea ever, considering energy is alpha and omega of this game.
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 09:35
#39
Oh man, I had this horrible
Oh man, I had this horrible nightmare where idiots kept logging into the forums and demanding that Three Rings scrap of their payment model because they want unlimited play time for no money. Thankfully it was only a...aw hell.
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 12:32
#40
LOL... Welcome to your worst
LOL... Welcome to your worst nightmare, Effrul! :D
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 13:10
#41
Hey guys I have this idea.
Hey guys I have this idea. Let's make a game that you can already play for free, forever, providing yourself with infinite energy without paying. And make it even MORE free.
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 14:54
#42
if they removed the energy
if they removed the energy how would they make money? they need cash to make a game and keep updating it. nothing in life is free. deal with it and go outside and dont waste youre time sitting on the computer waiting an hour for 10 energy and making a forum topic about it. people need to think this through. so many stupid suggestions. now i know why devs don't look here.
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 15:13
#43
There is another problem, if
There is another problem, if they get rid of the need for constant energy, what are we gonna do with crowns o.o?
No. Stop playing if you can't buy energy with crowns or IRL cash like normal people.