Spiral Knights - How competition brings out the worst in video games (Or why lockdown is dominated by single loudout and why it won't be fixed)

How competition brings out the worst in video games (Or why lockdown is dominated by single loudout and why it won't be fixed)

64 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 14:55

Fourtarkus

Video games all have their share of problems, but any minor flaw will be magnified as soon as it starts to become competitive. Spiral Knights is no exception.

I hope that every one has already played their share of Lockdown, and I'm sure that all the Tier 3 players know exactly what I'm about to talk about.

The Basic God Loadout:
Vog Armor
Vog Cap
Gran Faust
Polaris
Barbarous Thorn

I've seen players with these loadouts smash an entire six-man team into the ground, single handedly. The Vog is higly resistant to elemental attacks, so immediately the Divine Avenger, most of the brandish line, the Argent Peacemaker, and the elemental haze bombs, many of these weapons are considered to be some of the strongest in the game, are trivialized by this armor. Not to mention that it has almost total fire resist, so ash of angi is a complete joke to the vog. Meanwhile the attack speed bonus makes the Gran Faust swing like a Levithan blade, but it pretty much kills everything in two hits. Then, there is the polaris, which throws wonderful crippling status, shock, everywhere. Aside from the immediate damage of the gun, the shock is like stun and fire combined into one package. Then finally BTB blade pokes holes in everything, and causes the player to move around so much that hits rarely register against them while the sword is out.

Compare that to the close second Skolver Loadout.
The Skolver has pierce defense, but is too slow to reliably catch a vog player wielding the BTB, given the terrible lag that will occasionally occur. The skolver can't really survive too many hits from a shivermist busters, compared to the Vog's protection from Ash of Agni, this is barely passable.
Even with the damage bonus, utilizing a Gran Faust requires two hits, but the skolver will almost be outclassed by the vog every time. Pretty much every other character loadout has this problem against the God Loadout. If anything the normal resistance needs to be lowered a bit on the Vog.

Then on top of the mounding pile of crap, I mean useless Lockdown Armor sets, there is the mounding pile of gimpy weapons. The most common I see entering the Tier3 arena is the Dread Venom Striker. Dealing exceptionally low damage for a weapon, it requires several hits in succession to even be remotely dangerous. It is classified as a 5* weapon, but it is even out performed by 4* weapons.

Why this won't get fixed: OOO has no reason to spend the money to get someone to analyze and balance the weapon/armor system. The "god" loadout costs roughly 12.50 USD, which is either a whole lot of game time, or real money. If players make mistakes then that means that OOO actually gets the money that it deserves for making a game of this complexity. I honestly hope OOO tries to find a few more engineers or statisticians soon, because the game is going to get really boring if everyone has the same loadout.

Also the respawn in Lockdown sucks in 2 vs 4 games.

I have solutions, and I have a résumé.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 15:13

Flists

So... if you agree that OOO

So... if you agree that OOO is not going to change anything, is this just a rant?

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 15:28

Repartee

Engaging scanner

Rant detected.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 15:40

Cobaltstarfire

Lockdown is full of vog cub

Lockdown is full of vog cub because everyone had it before lock down was released, try thinking critically before you go off on a rant.

That said, I see people running deadly virulisk, volcanic salamander, gunslinger, bomber, and skolver. And an fairly equal distribution of GF, DA, and barb/flourishes, with a sprinkling of the calibur line in swords.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 15:44

Paweu

Thank god i don't care for

Thank god i don't care for PvP so i don't have to worry as you do \o/

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 15:46

Giannii

no, hes applying for a job :P

no, hes applying for a job :P I have no problem if they balance the game better, many weapons have been forgotten

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 16:01

Tantarian

Derp

Maybe you could learn to counter the other team strategies.
With a shivermist I have singlehandedly delayed and killed groups of (mediocre) enemies for minutes as a guardian wearing Ancient set while defending a capture point. It even works for inutilizing Recons. If there are skolvers you have to switch to Stun or Shock bombs. You don't even have to defeat your enemies to win LD, you just have to capture and defend.
If a certain type of damage destroys you, get armor that defends against such type. That's why nobody uses normal swords, because everyone has normal def. And that's why GF is absolute destruction, because nobody has shadow def.

Is the concept of PvP so complicated?

The only things I find "OP" are heart trinkets, since you can't get them anymore as easily, and skolver when compared to the other sets that give bonus damage to guns or bombs, since it seems to lack the drawbacks the other sets have.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 15:58

Speetz

I run Vog/Skolv with mainly,

I run Vog/Skolv with mainly, the only serious weapon at least, wielding Acheron. It does very well. My Fierce Flamberge does not do as well as I thought it would, but probsbly will at 5*, with my trinkets at 5* also. I run both 4* swords trinkets, Vog coat, Skolv Cap, tons of random UVs (2 on coat, 3 on Blackhawk, 1 on Acheron,) though I haven't tried my Blackhawk idea yet.

The resistances don't make THAT much of a difference, though I do understand what you are getting at. It's the damage bonuses. Their benefit doesn't equal the tiny little benefit of extra resist that the other armors provide. Similar to nameless for gunslingers.

When you take as much damage as you do in this game, the small amount of resist doesn't make a difference compared to more damage output. Extra DPS, especially for someone with swords, means 1 less swing, which means more shield up time in PVE and less time for your enemy to whack you in PVP, among other things.

That tiny amount of extra resist, even in full Skelly 5* against an Acheron, doesn't make enough difference. The extra damage is better, especially when combined with the class bonuses in LD

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 16:28

Crashfu

Back here in T2 pvp land,

Back here in T2 pvp land, it's all the 3* wolver armor, flourish or twisted snarble barb, or troika or sealed sword, with the occasional nightblades, and the 3* shocking pulsar and such.

Occasionally you see someone show up spamming bombs and... has the basic super blast bomb always had a blast area equivelant to most 5* bombs? It's pretty rediculous.

But otherwise yeah. wolver people poking each other with sharp weapons. Considering I never see anyone carrying the flourishes or snarble barbs in PvE, I have to assume it's all a deliberate thing opposed to just what they had before. You'd think that, all wearing piercing-resistant armor, that they wouldn't all be carrying piercing swords, but the fact they can all somehow kill you with those piercing weapons in two hits while you're wearing full jelly armor (and not under recon debuff or being striker) makes me think they know something about how damage and resistance work in PvP that I don't.. considering it takes me about four hits to kill someone who has no elemental resistance with an elemental brandish. \:(

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 16:35

Richy

Not even going to bother to

Not even going to bother to read it because the whole "basic god loadout" part says it all. Listen, before Lockdown PVP there wasn't PVP that used your actual equipment. So people focused their armor on these strange things called the clockworks. Vanaduke is the final boss, 5 star players evolved their weapons/armor etc to suit themselves for Vanaduke. The only reason you think these weapons and armor whatever are better is because you see them more often and people kill you with them. Is a Polaris hard to defeat? No way it is ridiculously easy. The gun shoots so slow. Easy to move around them and kill them. Vogs are easy to kill with a Sentenza, Gran Faust are easy because they are slow. The only problem I have is with Barbarous Thorn and they can be defeated with Recon.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 16:58

#10

Nicoya-Kitty

@crashfu I can't possibly

@crashfu I can't possibly imagine who would show up in T2 PVP and spam micronomes. *shifty look*

The SBB has the same radius as some 5* bombs, like the irontech (I think) and big angry bomb, but all the vortexes, the status bombs, nitronome and DBB have a much larger radius at 5*... which is, like, basically all the 5* bombs people actually use.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 17:03

#11

Tengu

+1 Richy Graviton bomb!

+1 Richy

Graviton bomb! shadow damage!
Sentenza! shadow damage!
Archeron! shadow damage!
Shadowtech Alchemer! shadow damage!

Now that we have that covered,

go get some shadow defense. Magic line, some of the shootist gear...

If you end up in a PvP witrh a whole huge pile of vog, loudout into a shadow setup. You can build a 3*-5* setup for them, and you'll find yourself making little vog piles all over the playfield.

Lockdown is EXACTLY what this game needed. 2/3s of the gear in this game that was underutilized is now prime PvP material...even the 1* trash. Start exploring it in T1 and T2 and see what you come up with.

Besides, you'll at least be getting Krogmo coins.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 17:04

#12

Epicyarn

I propose a solution

Do tier 1 or 2.
No Vog. No Nothing standing in your way.
I play tier 3, so i know that Vog, isn't God. In fact, they are easy, especially with a 2-swing sword. You can use Guardian or Recon, since those have the most health, and chances are, you'll live on top

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 17:27

#13

Gwenyvier

"Considering I never see

"Considering I never see anyone carrying the flourishes or snarble barbs in PvE, I have to assume it's all a deliberate thing opposed to just what they had before. "

Nobody used Flourish/Snarby before PvP? Quite odd... I ran into a ton of people, myself included, that carried them for Beasts and Fiends as the attack style seems designed to directly counter the fast moving critters. Although admittedly I prefer DBB for Fiends.

~Gwen

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 17:42

#14

Fourtarkus

Point/Counterpoint

As several of you mentioned I did forget to give a 'why' in response to the rant.

Largely it's due to the overwhelming number of threads devoted to weapon balance and also due to the large number of n0bs that leave games early in response to getting stomped repeatedly. Yes, we realize the teams are unfair, but seriously having a teammate leave halfway through because "it's too hard" is makes me livid, and it's even worse when there are AFK's that still get coins for doing nothing. There is a point where it will be near impossible to win, but until then, be a good sport and stay. You paid 200cr to play, you should at least get that coin.

Second, aside from what you bring into battle, and the previous experience that you have, there is only so much a change in strategy will help. Aside from the fact that the higher the stakes the more likely a player's facility of problem solving will crap out. Bringing in good equipment is fine, but you can't predict who you'll play.

Finally, there has been a question of the Polaris's validity in game. Minus individuals wearing a sufficiently shock proof suit, the Polaris turns every corridor into a choke point, and every point has an electric fence. Used properly, and in tandem with a second, the majestic cyan mist devours almost everything. Hell, it doesn't need to be a Polaris, it could be kilowatt pulsars. The 30-60% chance of shock, coupled with sizeable explosions can put out some of the toughest teams.

Truth be told, I have seen other sets present. But I would say that 95+% of the time, that most of the popular armors are generally comparable to other sets including Valkyrie/Fallen, Divine, Skolver, and Volcanic Plate

Oh, on an unrelated note, when I switch to 0* equipment, and it says T1PVP, why do I still have to fight Tier 3 people?

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 17:50

#15

Gwenyvier

You will show up in T3 PvP if

You will show up in T3 PvP if you have loudouts set as PvP that are for T3 and/or your equipped trinkets are 4-5*.

~Gwen

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 19:39

#16

Shoebox

PS: Shivermist Buster is OP.

I'm tired of posting my opinion on this and I'm tired of this game not balancing out anything.

If they actually fixed the other weapon types associated armor sets, maybe PvP would be more balanced.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 19:45

#17

Goldmaker

Eeeyup T3: Skolvers and vogs

Eeeyup
T3: Skolvers and vogs with GF crushing everything.

T2: Duskers with any 3* sword and pulsar or voltech dominating everything.

T1: SLap fest !

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 20:41

#18

Spamisalreadyinuse

just about any set up with a

just about any set up with a flourish type weapon will make you "godly". at least with GF you can take advantage of its swing speed. ( it's still quite slow even with max asi). but with BTBs, it's basically combo till you drop.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 21:11

#19

Onionflunkie

Dat Striker

It always seems to be an enemy team of ungodly strikers whenever I'm in a losing game.

But there's no doubt that if I had the very same equipment, I would be doing the same.
Until then the most I can do is recon. If at any time I am a striker, it would be the same as just saying "I want to dash into their attacks".

Strikers sure do love to run after me though.
I like to fire a few shots and distract them from capture points.
THIS HAS NOT WORKED YET, but dang it I am trying to make it work :U Recon is fun.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 21:26

#20

Ummeiko

The only thing vog really

The only thing vog really does to me is tells me not to bring Agni. Skolver doesn't even cause me to blink.

From what I tend to see, bombers counter swords, guns counter bombs, and swords counter guns. Although you will find exceptions to each of those types when you run into particularly skilled players.

Striker class is pretty much nullified by good Shivermist locking. Recon doesn't take much more, and can be kept from sneaking up on you with good bomb placements. Guardians can be tricky but they have to choose between doing damage and keeping the shield up, so even if you can't actually kill them, you can stall them pretty good.

In my experience, elemental/piercing defense on vog/skolver armors really doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

The only reason things seem imbalanced right now is because people are equating winning with damage instead of with area control. There are ways to counter people that think like that, but it's tricky in pugs to get the whole team on board. Usually you'll have a handful of people that want to just throw themselves at the enemy, die a lot, and then rant at the end about how "No one else did enough damage" even though they were totally ineffective in what they did.

Mon, 09/26/2011 - 22:45

#21

Nicoya-Kitty

@ummeiko Bombs counter

@ummeiko Bombs counter swords, guns counter bombs, swords counter guns... Then someone brings along a radiant sun shards and you start thinking this game of Rock Paper Scissors just got a Lizard and a Spock.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 01:32

#22

Eldibs

"The best slow sword is

"The best slow sword is better than all the other slow swords! Rebalance!"
"The best piercing sword(s) do(es) piercing damage and swing(s) at a decent rate! Rebalance!"
"The worst sword is worse than all the other swords! Rebalance!"
"The best gun is an effective weapon to use! Rebalance!"
"The armor that makes your swords faster makes your swords faster! Rebalance!"
"I hope OOO spends a bunch of money to hire new employees to make the game fit my ideal of what is 'better' so they can have roughly the same amount of players!"

Not only does it appear that the people griping about balance issues in Lockdown are in the minority, but they're posting their "suggestions" in the General forum instead of the Suggestions forum.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 05:46

#23

Redmania

OP is a noob

It's the circle of life.

Noobs will continue to cry and whine about balance.
Pros will continue to adapt to the ever changing landscape of PvP, which changes over time in ALL games, and continue to win.

Little hint: If you can't beat them, join them. AKA get ur own Vog Set/GF/Polaris if you think it's so OP... When you finally get it, you'll realize that you suck terribly in it because you have no skill to use it properly.

Less QQ threads about failures please.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 06:13

#24

Delvro

Ah... the age old "get your

Ah... the age old "get your own" argument, stuffed to the brim with an elitist "you'll still suck" attitude.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 06:49

#25

Seesevn

Really? I just do fine with

Really? I just do fine with my Volcanic demo helm, Mad bomber suit, final flourish (which I plan to replace with either an acheron or triglav when I get those finished), blight needle, nitronome, and Shivermist. (at least as a gaurdian, and I only use the flourish if there's not enough time to charge a bomb)

Sure gran faust and DA are really powerful, especially when paired with the right set, but I find that if they spend all their time trying to swing their sword at me they usually don't notice the bomb about to go off, or they keep their distance, and while that is annoying (especially with the polaris) I just use the bombs to advance and cover more area so they'll continue to retreat until they can't or a teammate gets them.

Honestly I have a bigger problem with gunslingers on recon, but that's just because I go full bomber and it gets pretty difficult to place bombs while being shot at. There's always a way to counter someone, and I'm not gonna tell you to get a specific set to do it because the "You should've leveled this" argument is crass and ridiculous given how much time and effort it takes to get something to 5-star.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 10:13

#26

Richy

I don't use any of those

I don't use any of those weapons except I have a Polaris equipped in Lockdown(I don't use it because it sucks unless people are in bunches). Normally I either lead damage and captures or I am in the top three in those categories..so I do just fine without the "super weapons/armor".

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 10:50

#27

Spark-Plug

Easy to solve

And all of that crap is the reason i play lockdown in tier2 and tier1

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 10:58

#28

Decibel

"Little hint: If you can't

"Little hint: If you can't beat them, join them. AKA get ur own Vog Set/GF/Polaris if you think it's so OP... When you finally get it, you'll realize that you suck terribly in it because you have no skill to use it properly"

Redmania, the OP's point is that it's impossible to suck with that setup, hence OriginalPoster considering it OverPowered (have to specifiy OPs lol).

I don't think it's OP but I laughed out loud when you mentioned the skill thing. That setup, and the Striker class in general, require little to no thought or skill at all. It's a case of weaving through incoming fire and killing things. You don't even need to play objective because you kill so quickly. That's why there are so many Strikers; it's easy to do well.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 14:25

#29

Ageatii

I pretty much agree with

I pretty much agree with everything Ummeiko said. Try not to confuse the metagame with actual imbalance (though I'm not saying there are no imbalances).

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 14:59

#30

Mysticbeam

lol

vog/GF users are pretty easy actually, u just gotta wait till they finnish there combo, and hit em, or recon and hit em unawares

heres the mistake that i see most peaople do: as a recon, the step onto a controll point! this gives away the fact that ur there, and ruins the elemnt of surprise that u have.
wait 4 em 2 get off the CP, then get behind em, take of shield, and strike with a FAST wep, then shield again, repeat.

and u can take 3-4 hits from a GF as a gaurdian

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 15:03

#31

Tipiak

Shivermist, VT, stagger storm

Shivermist, VT, stagger storm and even nitronome kill consistently vog users...
You say: "The skolver can't really survive too many hits from a shivermist busters, compared to the Vog's protection from Ash of Agni, this is barely passable." actually full skolver makes you completely ignore the shivermist... and I'm yet to see a reasonable use of AoA in LD...

I use my BTB in LD, but also in any beast or fiend level, and actually in gremlin levels too... the only equip I built for LD is my T1 LD loadout XD

So... basically... have you even played LD or even SK ?

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 15:09

#32

Good-Spirit

SPARTANS!

After fighting an ENTIRE guild team who exploited the skolver/rapier combo, I'm all about balancing out that blade. Everything else isn't so bad... I just get tired of trying to run from a combo that is faster then the Striker dash, and kills from half my gun range away.

... and i did post this in the suggestion forum already :)

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 15:09

#33

Grittle

bahh, my main problem, is

bahh, my main problem, is that the pepperbox is more horrible than the cautry sword in PVP, only ONE and ONE bullet hits the player, and doesnt suck the player in with the hug of death

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 16:22

#34

Sypsy

I disagree completely.The

I disagree completely.

The God loadout would be as follows:
Skolver Armor (max shock)
Skolver Cap (max shock)
Gran Faust (vhigh ASI)
Polaris (vhigh ASI)
Final Flourish (vhigh ASI)
Voltaic Tempest (vhigh CTR)
2x true love trinkts (+6 HP each)

What is that junk you posted. it doesn't even have trinkets. I wouldn't even call it the "basic god loadout." Perhaps your standard issue T3 lockdown equipment. Minimum at best.

--
More seriously, your basic god loadout is junk without skill.
I personally have skolver/vog mix, and w/ 2 trinkets, giving me max asi + dmg. I agree with you that max asi is the first thing that should be had if you want to fight toe-to-toe with a flourish/btb striker that has max asi.

When encountering a FF/BTB vog striker there are a few strategies I entail:
As striker:
- Out dash them, never do the full 3 swing combo first or you're dead. Hit once, and dash again.
- Use your guardian's shield to protect you. You're with a guardian right? You didn't just dash off thinking you were awesome..? Did you? =\
As guardian:
- Shield, wait for them to do a full combo on you, then hit/shield them to death.
- Have your teammates attack them while you shield everyone. You have teammates with you right? You don't? Why not? =\
As recon:
- I have no idea, since I am abysmal with recons. I guess something about hiding and running away unpredictably.

Noobish strikers fall easily.

The ones with skill are more fun to duel.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 18:41

#35

Richy

There is no one super loadout

There is no one super loadout in my personal opinion because each loadout has its own strengths and weaknesses. Personally I use weapons to counter whatever the enemy is wearing, hence why I carry a large amount of shadow weapons for when I deal with Vog losers.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 18:54

#36

Zettalux

Seriously? Vog, the God

Seriously? Vog, the God Loadout? I look forward to games against Vog users - free kills!

The only reason you believe Vog is OP is because they have higher ASI than you. You want to beat them? Get Vog yourself or get an ASI UV, or even the Attack Speed trinkets. In my opinion, Skolver's much more deadly than Vog; it's harder to counter.

Nonetheless, while I agree with you that Flourish-like swords are somewhat OP, they're OP for a reason. Wide/long range swings? Of course. But has it ever dawned to you that these swords do pure pierce damage, and thus would become much less devastating with pierce defense? Yes, it's that easy to counter! And if you're good enough, you can beat them.

If you still lose, then that's your fault. Not the equipment's.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 19:18

#37

Shoebox

Haters gonna hate.

Everybody in this thread telling OP he has no skill is a scrub.

Just sayin'.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 21:10

#38

Lukehandkooler

Video games all have their

Video games all have their share of problems, but any minor flaw will be magnified as soon as it starts to become competitive. Spiral Knights is no exception.

Double healer warrior, errrr ehm...double guardian GF striker gunna take your node, and if they defend one they aint going anywhere unless they want to.

Maby we need a new sword in the game that gives a player back 90% of his live after he makes a killing blow, we can call it Victory Thrust!

I share alot of the beefs the OP has with the game when it comes to LD (not so much PvE) I have just HAD IT UP TO ABOVE HERE with pvp in mmo's that gives the gawd damned tank archtype a) more survivability b) better burst potential AND sustained damage c) and better mobility to boot.

Kinda like in Warcraft how they buffed warriors to do better burst damage, apply more offensive pressure, tank more damage, have nearly twice the mobility with heavier weaponry AND armor equipped, and lastly even stunlock if not slightly better than at least on par with rogues.

To OOO, people only like games that cater to and overtune the most popular setup untill the end of the season when they armory the leaderboard and see that 73% of the top 100 are all running the same class/build. This cheapens the game and ruins its longevity cause every facerolling (insert loadout here) realizes "been there, done that" and all the GDI's (god damn independent thinkers) spot the obvious flaws in balance and CBA to keep throwing crowns and CE at innovative solutions to countermeasure.

IGN Lukehandkooler

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 22:51

#39

Zettalux

@Shoebox Where'd you get that

@Shoebox

Where'd you get that observation? We aren't the ones crying about Vog and DA's. We're simply saying that, while those sets are good in their place, there are better things to worry about out there. Things you yourself can utilize to beat them. And while you're gonna spend time crying about what's so OP, I'm spending time finding ways around what's been deemed "OP."

All you're doing is asking for nerfs, and that's gonna lead to more imbalance problems. Imagine all the people you'll enrage for nerfing Vog.

Sad, really. You, Shoebox, act like your tears will cure the plague. What I'm just saying here is to get real. It isn't our fault you can't face what's "OP."

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 01:49

#40

Twiddle

The easiest way to deal with

The easiest way to deal with vog cub? Bring your shivermist. Watch as those vogs get frozen in place.

What do you do after they are frozen? Keep freezing them. You have taken an enemy out of the game, and they will continue to do nothing as long as they are frozen. Give yourself +1 for every vog you capture. d=

Why all the problems won't get fixed: This is a PvE game. As such, the weapons are balanced around PvE. Now, I think the balance in PvP is pretty good, but I think the PvE part comes first. I don't think they will make a change in PvP that breaks PvE. This may mean that some weapons are useless in PvP, but that's how it goes. You do your best to balance everything within the limitations imposed by PvE. Either that you you change the rules completely. That's what they did with shields. Shields in PvE don't translate well into PvP, so they completely redid that dynamic. PvP is better off for it.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 03:24

#41

Lukehandkooler

Shields

Honestly, I know the new LD shields are new and exciting Twiddle, but imHHo I think (and would rather) the PvP would be more balanced if we were to just go in to face eachother as we do in the clockwork.

Also! why does their have to be random pieces of everything that boost sword damage while looking for variety pieces that boost gun damage is basically like looking for Jimmy Hoffas body, the holy grail, and D.B. Coopers missing money and hopeing to find them all at the same place?

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 04:00

#42

Shoebox

Where'd you get that

Where'd you get that observation?

Your posts.

And the fact only scrubs talk about skills.
Because they have to act like they have a real tangible version of something that doesn't even exist inside the game.
Y'know, being a sad loser with nothing to offer the world and all.
And most likely not even being half as good as the game as you let on you are, at that.

Also, not only are you a scrub, but you're entirely illiterate.
But I suppose being a scrub and being an idiot are one in the same.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 04:42

#43

Bumbling

The only post Zettalux made

The only post Zettalux made before that one was one where he was talking about gear strenght/weakness matching, so his idea of what constitutes skill is probably different from yours.

"Y'know, being a sad loser with nothing to offer the world and all."

Yeah, this makes Zetta look much worse than you.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 06:13

#44

Splinter

Final Flourish? I thought

Final Flourish?

I thought Skolver FF was pretty overused too is it not? And that takes care of all the Vog Players.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 06:33

#45

Silphius

@Shoebox

Zettalux originally contested that the "basic god layout" list is flawed using arguments, he said the Skolver should have the number 1 place because of the very thing you mentioned earlier in this thread: "PS: Shivermist Buster is OP. " Besides that, it also protects against the piercing blades, one of the most powerful and prolific weapon types in PVP at the moment.

Now let's look at scrub's definition:

"Scrub: A scrub is a now generalized term used as a synonym for a "noob" or "newb," which is someone who is bad at a video game or activity in general.
Most of the definitions here, surprisingly, have nothing to do with the actual term. The original definition is related to a person who makes a mistake in a video game, which is such a bad mistake that it is clearly wrong, yet they persist in making it. The term derives from Street Fighter II, (etc.)"

Even if he was making a mistake (which I didn't see him do) he's trying to solve it and the problems posed by others. He isn't saying skill is all there is to it, but after negating the equipment problems people mention skill is all there's left. Besides that, his attitude is helpful, he even made a strategy guide to help others a page down. He's not a scrub. Skill is undeniably important, Vog isn't so massively overpowered that it's the sole cause for OP's example of "[seeing] players with these loadouts smash an entire six-man team into the ground, single handedly".

Now as for your responses:
"I'm tired of posting my opinion on this"

Okay.

"PS: Shivermist Buster is OP. "
"Everybody in this thread telling OP he has no skill is a scrub."

Sounds like opinions to me. Inconsistent much? Stop being a negative nancy and repost some useful things from your previous threads if you can't be arsed to write new material, I've seen your guides too, this thread might benefit from it.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 08:44

#46

Usaada

I'm sorry, but...

I'm really heavy PvE and I really enjoy using my Skolver + FF to dance through Devlites and mow down Trojans in t2 and 3. I'd really like it to stay that way. I also do agree that Skolver's freeze resist should probably be buffed as well, since this would be very helpful in the case of a Freeze-themed boss should that happen in the future.

I've noticed that standard variants are displayed double on weapons now and I hope that OOO is planning to use that as a "PvE or PvP conditions" setup to make weapons function differently between the two game modes. Perhaps that will solve the problems without nerfing Shivermist in FSC because people in LD complain about it.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 10:42

#47

Pawn

It is kinda annoying

It is kinda annoying that the only t3 balance change they've made was increasing health. The problem with that is low health wasn't the issue, sword strength was the issue. So in effect by going with the easiest band-aid solution, they effectively further nerfed guns and bombs proportionately to swords :/ But i guess it's a start.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 13:23

#48

Xeirla

Rawr

Okay
@ Shoebox
It seems like your objecting the disagreers to this thread entirely and suggesting they are the ones without skills

@Zettalux and others
Ok. I get what you're saying. You mean to say that These weapons are not overpowered because it takes skill to use them.
The people who oppose you say the opposite, that they are OP because it takes little skill to use them and they are hard to defeat.

I personally don't care anymore. Seriously if we're gonna argue about a minor flaw in the game because we all dont have the same gear, what does it matter? So you have Vog and the supposed OP weapons. Good for you, you are most likely a devoted player of the game and have experience in the game. So you dont have Vog and the OP weapons. Well good, you are either working towards the goal of obtaining them or deciding that maybe that's not your playstyle, and maybe you can work around the users who are called out for being OP. Possibly, you are a strategist.

Look... there is a good chance OOO will not nerf these weapons and there is a good chance that regardless of the nerf, people will use them.

If were just gonna keep ranting about this like the CE forums awhile ago then we haven't grown much since then and learned from before.

Heres a great thread idea: Name a thread "A place to show how much hate and rage you can put towards everyone"

This Lockdown nerfs and petitions are just making the game as it was with the whole "CE is too pricey" thing again.
Ok now you can disregard this post entirely and continue your pointless hate. Bye.

~Xylka

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 13:37

#49

Negimasonic

"A place to show how much

"A place to show how much hate and rage you can put towards everyone"
I would but it'd probably "disappear"/locked since it'd be against the rules for some reason or another.

Wed, 09/28/2011 - 13:56

#50

Zettalux

@ Shoebox I don't think you

@ Shoebox

I don't think you even read my whole post, but okay. Nothing you said in your last post posed any sort of argument for the thread topic; what does me being illiterate have anything to do with this issue? You didn't even so much as address any of my arguments posted.

Also, as Silph said, I merely proposed one's review of their own gear; perhaps they need to improve in that aspect if they're having issues with PvP. And if they truely, truely are the best they can present themselves with, then you can rant about something being OP.

I appreciate everyone's insights here, with or against my argument (provided you offered good, well-thought out points as opposed to personal attacks). I won't restate everything I said, but rest assured I won't deny that there is an imbalance to the game. People just have to understand that everything the game's given players is entirely counter-able. Nothing's impossible.

@ Twiddle

Great point, I actually never thought about the base game (PvE) versus Lockdown (PvP). That does make sense; tweaking something for PvP would effect PvE. Nonetheless, this proves that people need to be a bit more considerate before jumping to conclusions.

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How competition brings out the worst in video games (Or why lockdown is dominated by single loudout and why it won't be fixed)