Spiral Knights - Alternative Viable System for Shadow Lair - Warning: Abominable Wall of Text Inside

Alternative Viable System for Shadow Lair - Warning: Abominable Wall of Text Inside

15 respuestas [Último envío]

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 09:35

Pookycakes

Well hellow and to whoever is reading this, this is a desperate attempt at offering an idea on what a viable Shadow Lair could be like.

First, i'm sorry if my english is broken but i'm french and this is the best I can do. Secondly, I won't comment on what OOO are planning here (making Shadow Keys a random drop from opening a Lockbox). Im pretty sure everyone already knows how this is gonna end.

Instead I'll just describe what I think could be nice to have while keeping the Shadow Keys.

_________________________ The Major Issues _________________________

The best solution would of course be to NOT have Shadow Keys at all. The general difficulty of the Ultimate dungeons will already make us pay a LOT of CE revives to complete them; even with free access to these dungeons it's very likely that Regular FSC or Jelly King will still be better options for people farming crowns. If this happens, be assured that nobody will run the Ultimate dungeons on a regular basis. At best, the endgame players will farm the unique tokens or materials from them then move on to never return.

"Play once then dump" content is worthless content.

However, this already suggests the idea that everyone "could" access the Ultimate dungeons whenever they want to, which we WON'T be able to if Shadow Keys end up as Lockboxes drop.

Thus two main issues arise here:
- Ultimate Dungeons should be accessible easily to be viable.
- Ultimate Dungeons should become at least as profitable as Regular Dungeons to be viable on a long term basis.

Overcoming the first issue will require 100% chance of getting a Shadow Key. One of the possible way of doing so is to make them available at Boost (the Usable Items NPC/Vendor).

The second issue is easy to fix, just make sure that a 0 revive Ultimate dungeon run gives at least as much money as the corresponding Regular dungeon. The Ultimate dungeon will then be harder than the regular one but at least it keeps the potential of being profitable.

These two solutions are however tied together as the rewards from the Ultimate dungeon have to be adjusted to the price of the Shadow Key. If the rewards from the Ultimate Dungeons remain exactly the same as the Regular Dungeons, a fair price for a single Shadow Key would be around 0 CE.

At first, the ultimate dungeons will be a death trap and energy sink to most endgame players, but once all of them manage (somehow) to pull off 0 CE revive runs, these ultimate dungeons WILL become viable alternatives to the regular ones. (Hellow new learning curve & sense of accomplishment and progress -> Makes players happy.)

Alongside the necessity of making sure that the price of running a full Ultimate dungeon (including Shadow Key and Elevators Fee) doesn't completely crush the rewards from it remain another problem: Free to Play players.

The price of a Shadow Key has the potential of splitting the community in two. Those who can afford to play the new content and those who won't be able to. 150 Energy per Shadow Key seem to be a good price as it "might" fix this issue to some extent.

F2P players could use 100 Mist to cover a significant part of the key's cost, then use it to play the next day. Going above 150 Energy per key will risk splitting the community and deny F2P players a substantial part of content.

_________________________ The Minor Issues _________________________

Again, the problem comes from randomness or denial. (No way of having a 100% chance of getting into a dungeon, or no way of having a 100% chance of CHOOSING the dungeon, or no way AT ALL from enjoying the new content.)

A lot of players from the SK community grew fond of the possibility of choosing the dungeon they want to play in, especially because some of them "have" to avoid certain dungeons.

IMF for instance is not only generally laggy and harsh on our computers, it is also extremely frustrating to players with high ping due to the numbers of spike traps. Players with high ping will usually choose to avoid IMF just because they cannot possibly enjoy it. (And honestly, UIMF was even worse during my testing session.)

The minor issue:
- Players need to be able to access the Ultimate Dungeon they want to play in.

Now, we could simply put a Shadow Elevator at every single T3 Crossroads and have them randomly rotate between the Ultimate Dungeons.

However, if each Shadow Elevator takes 5 mins to switch to another dungeon, that would be (in a worst case scenario) 15 mins with no other thing to do than trying to chat up Basil, which is far from being one of the most enjoyable experience one could have.

Randomness can only generate frustration.

One possible way of fixing it would be to put a Shadow Gate to a very specific Ultimate Dungeon next of the EXISTING regular dungeon. This means Ultimate Snarby will be next to Regular Snarby in Tier 1 Crossroads.

Before everyone starts screaming "OMG, poor T1 newbie with Fencing Jacket / Stun Gun combo set will get murdered by mistake", think about what the new update will bring along...

Yes, Shadow Keys. T1 newbies won't be able to enter it by mistake. Even less if the developers put a floating skull next to the gate, telling them that they should NOT do so unless they got 5* items...

On the bright side, 75% of the new Ultimate gates will push endgame players to actually play on half of the newbie T1 and T2 strata.

This might be a simple detail but it has its importance as the endgame players who will join random parties in T1 and T2 to get to their Shadow Elevators will be showing (off) the 5* items that they own to the newbies.

This is a gigantic carrot dangling in front of the new players, making newbies WANT to actually reach T3 and get their hands on a Divine Avenger / Polaris / Whatever fancy thing that T3 players own. They might even end up buying a Starter pack to really play the game, thinking that someday they'll get the same gear as the T3 player they've just met and discover what's behind the weird purple gate.

Endgame T3 players could be of course be playing in a closed party but honestly who would say no to Free Heat in a random noob party... (And even when i didn't need free heat, i joined random T1s just to have 3 other people picking up crowns and items for me.)

The only downside to having Shadow Elevators in T1 and T2 are that players who will enter these elevators will probably not have the right vials / vitapods for post-T3 dungeons. This can be easily balanced though by tweaking the difficulty of the first levels of the Ultimate Dungeons.

_________________________ Summary of Alternative Shadow Lair _________________________

Alternative Shadow Lair :
- Shadow Keys available at Boost for about 150 Energy each
- Ultimate Dungeons rewards = At least as much as Regular Dungeons in crowns + the cost of a Shadow Key
- Specific Ultimate Dungeons available right next to their Corresponding Regular Dungeons in Crossroads

Advantages :
- 100% Chance of finding and entering the specific dungeon a player wants. (0 Randomness & Content denial)
- Tighten up the community by having Endgame Players run alongside T1 and T2 players. (Encourage newbies to keep on playing.)
- Once mastered (0 CE Revive Run), Ultimate Dungeons will become long term content. (New learning curve to master a viable dungeon that "MIGHT" be profitable if you pull off a perfect run. + No "Play once then dump" content.)

___________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for getting this far if u actually read everything,
Cootiecakes

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 10:04

Juances

problem

The anti-looping patch.How will a mixed party split without consequences once they reach a terminal?. That's why T3 guys will just go solo or in already locked partys instead of joining a random group.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 10:09

Molwar

Good suggestion, I especially

Good suggestion, I especially like the idea of having the cross roads at the respective boss's T1/T2 lair.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 10:31

Pookycakes

@Juances Crossroads count as

@Juances

Crossroads count as a level so it bypasses the anti-looping patch.

1/ Player goes from Emberlight (Level 17) to Crossroads (Level 23)
2/ Player goes solo on Crossroads Level 23 then enters Shadow Lair Depth 24
3/ Player invites his remaining party to Depth 24

Of course it also works by going solo at 13 then inviting at 14 for T2 and so on...

________

@Molwar

Thanks! :)

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 11:50

Zeka

My $0.02

@Pookycakes: Sorry for piggybacking off your topic. My ideas are not important enough to warrant the creation of its own thread.

I feel that the main issue players have with this update is that access to these new shadow lairs are restricted solely to shadow keys. It doesn't help that shadow keys can only be obtained the way that they are now either. I think OOO could improve this design by making unlocked shadow elevators appear rarely and randomly at the very of Tier 3, just before the core. This means that at the very end of D27, if you happen to get lucky and run the 'rare' variant of that depth's map, there will be an unlocked shadow elevator at the very end along side the normal elevator leading down to the core. This makes the new shadow lairs accessible to more players while encouraging more clockwork dives at the same time. This doesn't sound very fair for OOO does it? If this gets implemented, most players would rather run T3 repeatedly versus shelling out 750CE for a chance at the shadow lairs. Maybe, but maybe not. Along with the rare and randomized shadow lairs, the normal locked shadow elevators should be relocated to a public and easily accessible area with the option to buy shadow keys directly from a nearby NPC. In essence, this allows everyone a chance to access this new content, whether through patiently running through 'X' number of T3 dives hoping to get lucky, or by paying CE to access it right away.The only limit is one's patience.

Summary:
+ rare, unlocked shadow elevators available randomly at the very end of a T3 dive (D27 end)
+ normal locked shadow elevators available publicly with shadow keys being purchasable directly
= people hosting more T3 dives in hopes of lucky shadow elevator and/or eventually getting frustrated/impatient and buying the keys directly for instant access.

Pros:
+ encourages more T3 dives [costs energy]
+ all content is available to everyone (eventually) [equality]
+ entices impatient people to purchase keys [OOO profits]
+ ???

Cons:
- This will only work if there is a demand to run these shadow lairs [hope OOO made them worthwhile]
- OOO could potentially lose $ if everyone has an iron will
- ???

This has been my $0.02. Feedback would definitely be appreciated. Lets work together to develop a viable alternative to this current system.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 13:33

New-Dusk

* Hugs Pookycakes and Zeka"

* Hugs Pookycakes and Zeka" OOO should hire you guys.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 15:55

Pookycakes

@Zeka No problem, new ideas

@Zeka

No problem, new ideas and suggestions are welcome. What i posted was only one of many possible solutions to save that update but anyway it's too late now. I've seen someone open 20 boxes in a row in Haven trying to get a single key to be able to play the new content... Well, he failed and logged off; i suppose he won't feel so good about it even if they implemented our ideas in the next 5 minutes.

The damage has been done already, the worst thing that can happen to a game is having the players turn against the developers. Unfortunately this is exactly what's happening at the moment, the vast majority of the posts on the general forum are hate/rage posts against OOO's greediness and the update.

This is all very sad and won't go away easily, probably won't go away at all...

@New-Dusk

Thanks... but I would not accept the job even if they offered it to me now.

Endgame players have been waiting months to get new content to play with. Today they felt like they got slapped in the face and basically told to gamble all their CE to try to get a single key, so that they might try the new content "once" IF they're lucky enough to unbox a key.

Having to pay an absurd amount of money only for a chance to try out the new content definitely crossed the line. Even if we're the luckiest person in SK, we would have to pay 2$ for 750 CE each time we want to play something else than the dungeons that we have all done over 300 times already. This is absurd...

Most people now feel that OOO has absolutely no basic understanding of how to keep their players in the game and instead are only looking for more money.

The knight i saw wasting 15,000 CE opening boxes could have bought a brand new game with the value of the CE he spent to do that but I highly doubt anyone would now go buy 15k CE just to end up like him.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 18:55

Axellon

Excellent ideas

Someone should get on changing things to that right away.

And probably handing EVERYONE a "we're sorry" present.

I'm thinking a Keyring accessory. For the irony.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 19:09

Marcusspiralcus

Yes I think that shadow keys

Yes I think that shadow keys only costing 100-200 CE would be an ideal price. Also OOO needs to generate revenue so I also have an idea which i feel is really good:

Shadow keys cost 100-200 CE. Have an NPC sell shadow keys for these prices and maybe even have bulk deals like if you buy 5 shadow keys, it'll only cost you 750 CE as opposed to 800-1000 CE. Also

Have shadow keys that are obtainable through lockboxes ONLY be like a 1 in 15 chance. But you can also get "super" shadow key which has unlimited runs but can only be binded to one person or sold in the market have like a 1-100 chance of being unlocked. People would pay money just for that little chance to achieve unlimited runs in the shadow dungeons, which depending on the recipient's luck, could pay off for them in the long run.

Mié, 10/19/2011 - 21:18

Divine-Neko

cootie joint the sleeper bergade

@Nick and OOO Team, Really? AH? And what happens when players stop selling and start using? Are you going to magically create the keys and sell them? Or are you going to [Was censored due to extreme graphic nature.]?

[EDIT: Why wold you do something so insane as to charge $2.50 or more for ONE dive!!! Cant you see most of your player bass cant afford that?! This is the kind of thing that makes us believe you care more about the money than your costumer bass. I know in my heart you don't but still it hearts.]
{Nick I'm sorry about the comment i did not mean it, In fact i think your quite hansom.}

But 'Neko sigh' people only git angry when they care . So people if you want OOO to feel our plight join me and don't play for 1 week. Don't log on to SK, don't post on forum, don't Tweet them, and don't hit them up on facebook.

Just take a week break from SK starting {Nov 1 till Nov 7}.
And see how much more effective it is than ranting.

And Nick you made me sad so now you have to deal with The Sad Little Neko.

Cootie joint the sleeper bergade take a week off with me and tell all of your friends to do it to and we will see a change.

Vie, 10/21/2011 - 12:51

#10

Pookycakes

I'll keep playing, only i

I'll keep playing, only i won't ever touch the Shadow Lair, even the first players who miraculously managed to get in don't feel like returning.

The entire Shadow Lair part is worthless but at least we got a cute pumpkin room so that's at least one thing to toy with.

Vie, 10/21/2011 - 15:27

#11

Ghret

Just... Just... Wow!

The idea of having the Shadow Lairs next to the other one at the Crossroads (We already have the empty one to the left of Basil) is something which is just amazing. Although I would reccomend that the person who wihes to use the Shadow Key has to have done the previous Stratum in order to acess, the rest of the players can then be invited in as normal.
Also the way that Shadow Keys are obtained really need to be changed. Mabe they could keep the Iron Lockboxes somehow? For example, a new NPC which takes x Lockboxes, and in return gives you y Shadow Keys. You could even have to pay some CE if that appeases OOO.
==Pros==
*Keeps Lockboxes in high value

==Cons==
*If Shadow Keys are too easy to get (CE cost too low) the Acessory market could decline
*Same as above, except it is linked to Silver Keys

Vie, 10/21/2011 - 21:20

#12

Zanjidholohart

hay cakes

Better than what they gave ust. But what can we do? The OOO team dose WHAT they want WHEN they want. Its THERE game and THAT'S the point.

Sáb, 10/22/2011 - 06:26

#13

Pookycakes

Well, the point is being able

Well, the point is being able to keep their players in the game, thus more money. What they've managed to do right now is an useless update that nobody can afford to play at all.

The endgame players are kind enough to tell them what could work, if they don't want to listen it's their problem. But even worse than that, what do you think endgame players answer to their friends who ask them about Spiral Knights now? Most of them tell them to stay the hell away from it.

You're asking "what can we do". It's a silly question, if there's nothing left to the endgame players to do, they will simply do something else. A lot of them have already moved on to play other games because there has been no new content for them for the last 6 months.

Those who stay do it only because they have friends in the game and they log in more to have fun and talk to each other than actually play the game now. Players in MMORPGs have always been a major part of the game's content. Unfortunately the social part of Spiral Knights is mostly what is left to them now because they have done every single dungeons over and over again already.

Dom, 10/23/2011 - 05:26

#14

Alice-In-Pyroland

I was contemplating making a

I was contemplating making a thread but since our solutions share several general themes I figured I'd chime in with another alternative suggestion;

So the general complaint with shadow keys that most us whom are against them continually reiterate, is that as long as the 'gambling' aspect remains the method of acquiring them their prices will likely continue to remain at a point where it isn't profitable to run the new content, and the entry fee to gain access is plain and simply too high. The simplest solution to this issue is to introduce a vendor that sells Shadow Keys, although obviously the issue with this is then they become readily available which would essentially defeat the point of their existence in the first place. Whilst I disagree with the principle behind them anyway, with respect to Three Ring’s idea I propose a simple solution which ensures that Shadow Keys are readily available for those of us whom feel their availability is a fault, whilst simultaneously preventing them from being massively devalued.

Make it so that the vendor that sells Shadow Keys only appears in front of the locked elevators themselves, and make him like Basil in that if a player purchases a key (s)he is unable to purchase anymore whilst at that vendor, or even the entire day if you felt such a restriction necessary. In fact going off of that idea make the mysterious key vendor fade away after selling a key so multiple players can't buy them, this ensures that a party always has a key to run the content without allowing players to stock up and resale them, at least not consistently. As for the pricing of the keys; somewhere around the 800ce-1000ce mark would make it that they’re not massively expensive if the party splits the cost but also ensures that they don’t devalue keys players get from lockboxes, at least not significantly. What this achieves is ensuring that Shadow Keys aren't too expensive to justify running the content, it makes sure that players always have keys available to do a run without flooding the market with them and it also removes the 'gambling' or 'luck' or whatever you wish to refer to it as, from the transaction.

Ultimately a lot of the people against the content myself included are much more likely to change our tune, the vast majority are indifferent to the current system but a fair few may be more inclined to take part if the keys are more affordable and the people happily running the content already will continue to do so, with greater frequency than before and in the long run not only is this more beneficial to the community, but it's much more likely to encourage more people to pay for ce when they know they can get keys with it, as opposed to wasting it on lockboxes for no guarantee, or spending ludicrous amounts for one off the auction house.

Increase the payout of the Shadow Lairs would be nice, but given you can resale the unqiue materials or even the gear for a relatively large amount I don't think it's required, provided parties split the cost for a key between them which ensures everyone contributes, running in a party has additional benefits and 250ce seems reasonable enough for f2p players (assuming the keys cost 1kce).

Dom, 10/23/2011 - 07:55

#15

Kickthebucket

glad to see that i'm not the

glad to see that i'm not the only one who thinks Nick's answer about the shadow keys in AH was kind of a slap in the face (yes nick this realy felt that way)
first of all they are ALL at maximum length so you need to camp out at the AH because you'll be overbid every 3 seconds...
second of all the prices would be impossible to pay (you'll have more chance RANDOMLY unboxing one)

but i'm allmost sure these people a) don't read these things and b) don't give a living crap about these ideas...

and i'll say it again DON'T turn spiral knights into a casino! it's not friggin vegas!!

but as we all know there are people who bought CE to unbox these keys, and in turn this was what OOO wanted money from fools who still want to try their luck and then get punched in the ghut and hit around the head with useless accesoires. and this way they lost A LOT of paying players (me for one) i'm not going to gamble, no way you'll ever get me to it (realy it's like your trying to make us gambling addicts here) for now i'm NOT selling the boxes i find (alltough AH is still full of them) and grinding some maps to make a silly ammount of crown wich i will some day turn into CE (but not untill they change it back to a GAME and not a gambling playground for the rich and morronic)

Buscar

Alternative Viable System for Shadow Lair - Warning: Abominable Wall of Text Inside