Spiral Knights - An opinion from "the average gamer" on the updates and SK up to now.

An opinion from "the average gamer" on the updates and SK up to now.

61 replies [Last post]

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 17:25

Triarii

Hello fellow knights and OOO admin.,

I have been playing SK CASUALLY since pretty much it became available in April (so no I am not a noob nor a beta snob). I mainly solo and have seen a huge increase in begging and immature behavior since steam came along. I was busy with grad school this summer so I did not play from late May to mid August.

Now, my opinions:

It was a delight to log on one day and see the Roar Twins. I think the AH was way better than going from arcade to arcade looking for best prices from individuals. I preferred the cost of 5* recipes to be 45,000cr instead of more CE and 25,000cr for recipes now.

Now the recent updates:

I rarely post but I just read that the admin. DOES read what we post, so I will voice my opinion. I think the new masks are GREAT that you can buy with candy tokens. I hope there is an exit or carry over strategy; I would hate to see 74 hard candy tokens in my inventory with no use at all in November. The lockboxes were good in theory, but I feel the accessories were lackluster and you should be able to choose whichever color you wanted when you applied them, not roll the dice. What sunk this idea were the cost of keys. I'd let it slide if you had a GUARANTEE of an accessory if it costs 750 CE (but that is too steep for me personally, I would rather spend 750 CE on many other things). And the same goes with the shadow keys. I'm sure the updates are cool and fun in the "shadow world" but I am not willing to spend the amounts to get a key just for a chance at something new (which also is apparently not guaranteed). I get it, you (OOO) need people to pay with real money so we can all enjoy playing.

My Conclusion:

Three Rings is going down the beaten path of WoW (I hate the comparison too, but it is the most fitting). Three Rings is starting to make things not just for the tier 3 players (like me), but for the elites of the game. You are starting to alienate the majority of your gamers to appease the 1-5% of hardcore players. While you might think this is a good idea since it is probably those 1-5% hardcore players that use real cash, you need to remember that without the other 95%, those 5% hardcore players have little reason to play. Look at the participation charts in WoW after all the elite gear and dungeons came out that only the best of the best could defeat or attain.

Three Rings, you will soon have guilds charging memberships (and key access) to recruits and an elitist (more so than now) sub-population that will have the material, energy, and financial ability to bully others around. When this happens you will cease to be.

I am not saying make everything cheap. I am saying keep things expensive, it keeps you employed. But EVERYTHING must be attainable (even if it is expensive) to all. This rolling the dice does not guarantee attainability. When things feel unattainable you will lose gamers, and fast.

Conclusion:

Keep the shadow keys, I don't care. But make them cost 750 CE at a vendor. OOO is rolling the dice way too much on all the recent updates. Same goes for accessories, just make them cost a few hundred CE or 25,000cr or something. Most will not waste (x) amount of crowns or CE on something they MIGHT get. Again great in theory, bad implementation.

Sorry for it being long, btw.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 17:39

Bladestorm

I personally like it when I

I personally like it when I see threads like these in the forums because I know I'm going to read a more thoughtful and insightful opinion, unlike the other threads where most posts go the "it's disgusting" and post the same thing as everyone else. Your idea does make sense, and I like the way you voiced it. And I agree with you, the idea was good, they just put it into the game in a bad way.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 17:49

Triarii

Thanks for reading it

Thanks for reading it Bladestorm and for being mature and not taking it as a personal attack. +1 to you.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 17:51

Vlad

The way I look at SK after

The way I look at SK after the "gambling" or "rolling" updates has really made my opinion on the game go down.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 17:55

Varja

+1 all the way

clap clap clap.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:03

Draycos

Agree.

I'd be fine with Shadow Keys being 750 CE, even if that's steep, if I had a guarantee of getting one when I paid... not a CHANCE.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:03

Eltia

+1 also

I think this is a fair assessment and OOO should listen to this man.

I have the exact same thought also. If SK ends up being an elitist game, I probably will be gone also. I think SK's strength is that it is able to attract millions of causal gamer from a diverse background. That's what makes it fun and interesting. If I want to play an elitist game, WoW is a much better and mature product.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:05

Stelli

I agree, the time that I

I agree, the time that I started playing was before the UV guy came and appeared.

So what I've been seeing after the UV guy came is, people rolling for UVs. But that is fine, because almost every game has some sort of opportunity to enhance weapons through opportunity crafting. And 20k cr for 1 Variant, in my opinion it's affordable for many F2P end game players.

Then the accessories came, 750 ce or whatever fine, you won't die without accessories. So if you don't need to look fancy and everything you can keep away from those keys forever.

Then finally the shadow key have been added in the lock boxes within over a hundred available accessories, assuming every single accessory and the shadow key have an equal attainable % rate from opening a lock box. You will need to averagely open more than a hundred boxes to attain a key.

It's more and more randomness that scares me, and im sure it makes alot of players feel insecure as well.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:23

Magnonite

The game changed so much

The game changed so much since the beta, its not free to play, its freemium to play, you play for like 30 minutes, then you have to pay to play more.

My nick on game was Priest, made a great friendships overthere, now i lost them all

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 21:17

Triarii

Thanks

Thank you everyone so far for the feedback and mature responses. I know a time will come along when someone will say I am wrong and that every item is attainable. To that comment I have a preemptive strike:

This is all based off of current (10/19/2011) wiki info

Number of accessories = 35
Number of colors = 10
Odds of me getting the color and accessory I want = 1 in 350
Cost of one open lock box (assuming you DID NOT buy the lock box) = 750CE or roughly 45,000 crowns, assuming 100ce costs 6000 crowns (5200 is no longer accurate, sorry).

Do (finish) the math, it's shocking.

A 1 in 350 shot at 45,000 crowns per shot is NOT attainable in a sense of it being realistic for an average gamer, even a tier 3 one.

The odds are very similar to getting a shadow key, but they do not come in ten colors so it is 1 in 351. This, in my opinion, is also not attainable by the average tier 3 gamer.

You can average in that there is a cost offset in selling the item you received but did not want at the AH but there are no guarantees that it will sell and at what price it will go for. Regardless, it is still unattainable for the average gamer.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:42

#10

Nick

Developer

As we have said before, we

As we have said before, we appreciate your feedback, so please keep it coming as long as it's respectful of the opinions of others.

Triarii - We do not publish drop rates for good reason, but your math for Shadow Keys is incorrect. Lockboxes do not work in the manner that you outline and the chance of acquiring a Shadow is much greater than 1 in 350.

Additionally please bear in mind that the Auction House is another perfectly reasonable method of acquiring them directly.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:49

#11

Fehzor

Erm

Isn't the auction house not direct acquisition, as its coming from another player? There will certainly be shadow keys on it, but the AH won't be whats actually setting the price.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:54

#12

Mysticbeam

my 2 cents(or 3...0r 4...well, u get it)

first: triarii, thank you for stating ur reason for posting in a calm, un-ranting manner. i hate reading whiney posts, and yours was not one of those :)

i agree that this games has a bit too much gambling going on.

ppl with either bad luck or worse luck will end up quiting the game :(

i wanted 2 try punch oout, so i got 2 1 uv tickets.

guess what? i rolled fire low on my vog, and elemental low on my grey cowl -_-

AND to further spite me, i had previuosly gotten an ASI high on my leviathan a while back by CRAFTING. lol

i thot i had good luck xD

we need a few more things to be definate.

the uv roller is fine, but the lockboxes and shadow keys are a bit much :(

maybe 2 boost the amount of players using them, make different color lockboxes, each color representing an accessory colo, toasty, dusky, etc.

also, i would recommend selling shadow keys for 750CE at the guy who sells weapon slot upgrades(forgot his name xD)

ty 4 reading

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:57

#13

Richy

I do like this update and the

I do like this update and the high cost to obtain these keys, however I do agree that these keys should not come from Lockboxes but should be sold by the same guy(cant remember his name) who sells silver keys at the price of 750ce. If they are not changed to that it is no problem to me because you can buy them at the AH for a pretty good price. I do see though why OOO would make it come from the lockboxes because they do not want people buying up 100 keys from the merchant and farming this then selling the items to spam the market with something that is supposed to be hard to reach.

Well on the bright side, it does drive up the low cost of lockboxes so it is good for T2/T1 players who come across a Lockbox.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:01

#14

Axellon

I like this idea

Triaii, you've got a solid idea. Putting the keys at the vendor would be a solid and simple way to make them available for everyone.
Iron lockboxes were a bad but acceptable idea for accessories, but they are simply the WORST for accessing new playable content.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:18

#15

Rangerwillx

Plus one. I personally don't care about accessories, because I wouldn't buy them if they were 300 CE.
But for these shadow keys, I really think that they should be sold directly from a NPC.
I think that OOO would make MORE money, if they just sold for 750 CE at a vendor.
OOO, you've made a spectacular game, and I think that you deserve credit for this.
And guys... be thankful for what you have!
Gosh I'm tired of this bloody whining that silver keys and shadow keys are too high! (No offense to you Triaii, you were sound.)
Ugh, I mean would you rather have no new content at all? This is amazing, the work OOO has done for us.
We repay them with this crap. Open your eyes people.. you don't have to pay for this new stuff..

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:42

#16

Triarii

To Nick:

"Triarii - We do not publish drop rates for good reason, but your math for Shadow Keys is incorrect. Lockboxes do not work in the manner that you outline and the chance of acquiring a Shadow is much greater than 1 in 350."

I would assume that the shadow keys do not have the same drop frequency as the accessories. This was mainly to show the odds of getting the accessory AND color you want. And if all accessories and colors have the same frequency but the shadow key drops MORE than the others then the ratio for getting the accessory and color you want is HIGHER than 1 in 350, since the shadow key drops in a higher proportion. This is assuming the drops for the accessory and colors for said accessory are the same. I couldn't imagine toasty dropping more than divine or a helm accessory having a higher drop rate than an armor, but I could be wrong, and even if I am the "dice rolling" is still not reasonable for any specific item.

"Additionally please bear in mind that the Auction House is another perfectly reasonable method of acquiring them directly."

Fehzor beat me to it. If it is from the auction house, it comes from another player. If that is the case than it originates from the original "dice rolling" which is what my OP was about. Sure I could buy it from the AH, but if it is rare it is very expensive and unattainable for most.

Example:

I don't HAVE to fight Vanaduke a bunch of times to get the fang of vog, I can buy it at the AH. But since someone else has to fight Vanaduke a bunch of times then put it on the AH it will cost hundreds of thousands of crowns there. This is exactly why you will not see a 2* item at the AH with 3 low UV's; someone had to shell out big bucks for the 3 UV ticket. The same train of thought can be applied to accessories and keys.

And only elites will have hundreds of thousands of crowns rolling around. I am tier 3 and play quite often and have about one thousand crowns currently and have been playing since April. My ce is at 100. Hence, I am the "average gamer" and we do not buy things that cost 100,000cr (or 500,000cr for an accessory) from the AH. That is my point. You are going the way of WoW, please make a U-Turn at the next light.

And no Rangerwill, I personally would not pay 300CE for an accessory either unless I had everything else I could possibly want AND not want.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 21:45

#17

Divine-Neko

Nekoed out becuse of this update.

@Nick and OOO Team, Really? AH? And what happens when players stop selling and start using? Are you going to magically create the keys and sell them? Or are you going to [Was censored due to extreme graphic nature.]?

[snipped - No personal attacks on the forums, please.]
[EDIT: Why wold you do something so insane as to charge $2.50 or more for ONE dive!!! Cant you see most of your player bass cant afford that?! This is the kind of thing that makes us believe you care more about the money than your costumer bass. I know in my heart you don't but still it hearts.]
{Nick I'm sorry about the comment i did not mean it, In fact i think your quite hansom. If you don't beleave me.}

But 'Neko sigh' people only git angry when they care . So people if you want OOO to feel our plight join me and don't play for 1 week. Don't log on to SK, don't post on forum, don't Tweet them, and don't hit them up on facebook.

Just take a week break from SK starting {Nov 1 till Nov 7}.
And see how much more effective it is than ranting.

And Nick and The OOO Team you made me a sad littel neko

d(T-T)b Like sad music, but worse.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:33

#18

Richy

Amazing people are more

Amazing people are more likely to boycott SK than Nike shoes.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:33

#19

Triarii

Keep it classy

Elle-The-Neko,

Please be nice. Nick helped make a game that I truly like, and I am by no means a fan of video games in general. We have all been great so far. And on behalf of Elle-The-Neko:

Sorry Nick. We appreciate everything you have done. I was just trying to give you the perspective from the "average gamer".

Let's not have a flame or class war on here. Name calling stopped being cool in 4th grade.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:44

#20

Nodocchi

I don't see anything wrong

I don't see anything wrong with the new updates, I mean yeah accessories cost a ton but since they provide no in game boosts I probably wouldn't spend much money on them even if they were cheaper. Accessories are for people who want to customize their knights, and are willing to spend money to do so. I accept that, not every update is going to appeal to me and my gameplay style.

Same thing with the Shadow update, unless the new gear is actually better than what I currently have I'm probably not going to bother, I probably wouldn't have bothered even if the shadow keys cost 100CE, because more challenging levels don't appeal to me by themselves, only if I can get 6* items, then maybe. I doubt this update will be game changing, thats why I don't care how much OOO charges for it, because I don't have to play it to advance my character, let people who want to spend money on this spend it, I don't care.

@Triarii
The essence of gambling is getting a high payout for a low investment with high risk. You think if OOO sold rare items in the lockbox in the shops it's going to be cheap? It will probably be comparable to the price of the guy is selling it on the AH. I mean it would be nice if every player could make their knight all pretty with the exact accessories they wanted but where is the fun in that? All knights would probably end up looking the same if accessories were as attainable as people wished them to be. Nothing is stopping you from selling the accessories you get from the lockboxes either, after you get an accessory you don't want, it isn't 750CE down the drain, heck depending on what accessory you get you could have even made money! Add on top of that a chance to get a Shadow Key and you're golden.

Honestly I don't see what the big deal is.

Also, you may be a tier 3 player with your 4 and 5 star equipment, but you're not an end-game player. I know people who accumulated over 40k CE from just running dungeons on their mist energy everyday. They had several sets of 5* equipment and nothing better to do, so there are more kinds of casual players than you can imagine, people who certainly can afford this update. OOO even said in the update that the new levels are for those players who have the exact 5* equipment to match the challenges in each dungeon, this means at least 4 sets of 5* equipment. That much equipment would have already cost the player more than 10k CE to make. Let's face it, you aren't the target audience of this update, get over it already.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 20:11

#21

Cobaltstarfire

I'm not sure which thread to

I'm not sure which thread to post in, I suppose it'll be this one, even though as far as skill goes I'm a slight cut above the average.

This is honestly the first update that made me uncomfortable since I started playing towards the end of the beta preview.

I suppose it only feels uncomfortable because this is the first update that has added content that I will likely never get to see or participate in, even if I did manage to generate the crowns to buy a key, or open a billion lockboxes. It would be only ONE key that gives me and a group of 3 others a single entry, that even for good players may end near the beginning of the level if the levels are as super hard/elite as they are said to be. That just feels like a slap in the face, or a waste of effort.

I understand that the keys can't grant permanent entry, or else the crown/ce sink would eventually bottom out on you guys, but I think maybe implementing the keys a bit differently would make it less draconian feeling. Such as having the key attune you and your group for a certain amount of time or visits instead of just a single dip. I suppose there will or won't be a change in the future depending on how many people actually participate in the content, I'm not going to hold my breath, but I guess I won't hold it against you guys either. Gotta make an income somehow afterall.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 21:10

#22

Triarii

Nodocchi:

Your first two paragraphs are the reason I wrote the OP. Basically it is a lot of hard work and content OOO gave us, but due to the way it was implemented it died on the table, so to speak. I can assume that OOO did not make this content with its intention of being esoteric or elitist, but that was the end result.

"The essence of gambling is getting a high payout for a low investment with high risk. You think if OOO sold rare items in the lockbox in the shops it's going to be cheap?"

The accessory is not high payout, you even said so in a previous paragraph, it is purely aesthetic and has no strategic value. And 750CE is not a low investment for probably 95% of the knights. And they might cost the same at a vendor compared to the AH but my point was never the price. I want the price to be high, but attainable. Tell me how many auras are for sale on the AH next time you log in? It is usually between 0-2 at around 500,000cr. So I don't care if someone wants to pay 500,000 crowns for something, but they should be able to. Right now they can't because it is a random chance to get one and even rarer to get the color, and even more rarer to see it for sale. Make the cost of BUYING one 750CE or 45,000cr, THAT is my point.

Lastly, you may have friends that have 40,000CE, but I am the "average gamer". I am a grad student, I have a girlfriend, I have a job, etc. The "average gamer" has nowhere near 40,000 spare CE regardless of how long they have been playing unless they bought it with real money. And your 750CE could be down the drain if you get an accessory that no one wants or a color that is undesirable. Opening a box in no way guarantees you will get the accessory you want or the promise to sell it for the price of another key or accessory you DO want. That is ALSO my point. You could theoretically end up spending over ONE MILLION (1 in 350 is actually over 1.5 million ) crowns on the accessory. Again I am not saying make things cheap so 2* players can have it, reread my OP. And as for everyone looking the same. Really? Like everyone doesn't wear vog. If anything it will differentiate everyone, that's the point of accessories.

And I am pretty sure if I beat Vanaduke I am an end-game player.

Lastly, the big deal is that the updates are not attainable except only for the elites of the game. How much do you think it would take to "roll" a ghostly aura? It would be ludicrous. I am all for updates that are for end-gamer players, this last update was for end gamers with a lot of bought CE or who play constantly i.e. elites.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 20:47

#23

Triarii

This was what I was afraid of

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/30023

Whether or not this person is telling the truth it is possible.

And this is what I meant by attainable only by the elite.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 20:47

#24

Kickthebucket

wow nice OP :) +750CE rep to

wow nice OP :)

+750CE rep to you good sir

ok all joking asside your abselutely right. and now we see that the devs finaly shown that they read this (ammids all the other crap sorry to use such harsh words haha) like the OP said, and EVERYBODY here will agree and support Triarii (i hope for good reasons not personal gain) i LOVE this game. but this isn't content i want to pay for or anybody for that matter... IF you are trying valve's TF2 aproach then do it correctly. give something a player wants and not 1 out of 351 items from 1 box??? so yeah, nick this line bothers me
"Lockboxes do not work in the manner that you outline and the chance of acquiring a Shadow is much greater than 1 in 350"
there are 351 items in there so that should mean there are some items that have 1 in 700 chances to drop... again i don't get why even bother to create that item? make ALL the items the same rate (make more boxes? for example armor back box, armor front box... you get the idea) like valve uncrating is a cheap way to obtain a surtain item with the chance of getting an unusual hat (around 1% if i'm not mistaken) and i think this system works.

also why does a special map need to be attained by random chance? (like the guy who sunk in 40 bucks and got nothing but ugly accesoires he can't even sell for 1/10 he paid for them?) and why from the same box at that?

what i'm trying to say i we don't hate the content... we hate the way we have to get it (pure luck and sinking in a massive ammount of money and/or time)

and then there's this:
"Additionally please bear in mind that the Auction House is another perfectly reasonable method of acquiring them directly."

directly from what? yes other players who in turn (like all other rare items or items that are in high demand) ask vast ammounts of curency for it (try buying a wolver tail or a halo or even the angel wings you'll know soon enough how much your paying for it)

this is just my idea (well actualy valve's) make EVERYTHING available trough purchase (ingame, real money,... you decide) and ok yeah the game is going to turn into "look at mah hat, mah hat is amazing" deal but at least people WON'T complain (as much haha, hatters gonna hat) and everybody can get what he wants and work towards that goal. like i first put in money because lack of time to grind for CE and bought (yes BOUGHT) CE trough steam so i was able to craft a T3 set so i could start to take a look around. and i untill today i'm still glad i did. because i knew what i wanted and i payed to get it, simpel.

i HOPE this will become reality soon (if it does i'm the first one you'll see parading arround haven as a skolver angel)

this is NOT a rant or attempt to let of some steam, this is a suggestion and a request to make it fair for everybody to get the key/accesoires and not only rich lucky people. (only problem is how are you going to fix the current mess)

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 22:05

#25

Pawn

@Nodocchi

You are missing the bigger picture.

Many of us have already done everything the game had to offer. And we have done it, and done it, and done it, and done it, and done it 100 times over. We've been chomping at the bit for new endgame content for literally 4 or 5 months (or longer in some cases).

Now, we finally have new content, and we are locked out of it (LITERALLY).

We have diligently supported the game, promoted the game, and helped the growth of the game. And now they FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY (get the point yet?) make new content and they make it so cost prohibitive we cannot play the games new content. The very game we faithfully supported.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 23:02

#26

Business-Lady

The interesting thing, is

The interesting thing, is that I wonder if the "elites" agree with your assessment of the situation. Going by forums posts at least, rather than seeing it as new content just for them, I am under the impression that much of the wealthiest players feel like they are being milked for all they are worth with recent updates.

The average players probably do not care that they have no access to those contents. They are probably more worried with the price of CEs as they try to get their gear up to 5*. Speaking of which, watch as threads about the price of CEs start popping up in the coming days ;)

One of the issue, is that it any significant back-peddling now could lead to a backslash from those who have already invested heavily in order to get the accessories they want, or even done parts of the new levels. It would not be fair to those who have spent tens of thousand CEs to get their "perfect" set of accessories if the dev suddenly make it much easier/cheaper for anyone to get the sets they want. I should note that I have nothing to lose, the accessories never interested me in the first place for the reason that they are too expensive, too random, and as a F2P player I do not spend my CE freely. I just take it as a luxury for those who can afford it, and I do not care because it doesn't affect my ability to play. For the same reason, I will also ignore the shadow key, and if it means that I will have to skip part of the experience offered in the game, so be it. However, I do hope that some of the future updates *will* be less about rolling the dice and more about the clockwork. Had it been up to me, shadow key would be acquired by showing that you can easily do current challenges (so perhaps exchanged with Almirian Tokens). Then to use the key and open access an additional sum of energy / crown would be required. But I am not the one making a living developing the game :)

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 23:01

#27

Eltia

I believe I found a nice way to sum everything up

"Many of us are willing to pay money for new contents. We do not pay money for a chance to access said contents."

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 23:15

#28

Speetz

High cost for Shadow keys?

High cost for Shadow keys? Fine

Random chance of getting them from lockboxes (being the ONLY way to get them generated)? Not.

My opinion. And why I am not spending cash on CE when I don't know what I'll even get from it.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 23:46

#29

Business-Lady

@Post #22

One question to ask though, is whether everything *should* be accessible to the "average" end game player. After all, you, we, haven't put as much into the game as the "elite", so is it such a big deal if there are cosmetic items that we consider prohibitive? I don't have an issue with Auras being so rare that the cheapest is 500k. I *am* surprised that people are going for them, but as long as it means more supplies of CEs into the market, I am not troubled.

It's a balancing act - how do you make the "elite" feel "special" and carry on playing/paying for the game without making the game unplayable for the "average" gamer. Well the "average" gamer is fine without an Aura. And if it only takes some exclusive costumes to keep the "elite" in the game (I doubt it's that easy), then that's a pretty good deal.

The Shadow key is a different matter though. Depending on how common those keys become over the coming weeks (due to the small existing sample, I'll take all figures with a pinch of salt), it -could- well mean that a large number of people who are able to easily complete existing challenges will be locked out of the new, and -that- I do think is a valid reason to think that the devs are not "caring" enough about the casual end game player.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 00:38

#30

Triarii

Business-Lady:

"One question to ask though, is whether everything *should* be accessible to the "average" end game player."

The answer is simple. Yes. Now should the "average gamer" have access to content at the same time/speed as those that pay? Probably not. If they are not spending real cash they should have to work more. But they should not have to pay 600,000cr for a shadow key or roll the dice a bunch of times that could end up costing more. I will refer you to my link I posted in post #23. Go read that and then tell me if that was fair.

And there is no way to measure who has put in more into the game. I have referred friends to this game and they have spent money. Without me telling them they may not have heard of SK and OOO would not have received that money. I'd that worth less than one person spending $2.50? And there are elites that haven't spent money, they just have no life and play constantly.

All elites (in general) need consistent, new content. An example is Snarby. 5* elites fought Snarby for the sake of it being new, not necessarily challenging. But would the "average gamer" start playing the game and spend time in it if they knew ahead of time they could never access tier 3 (example) until they paid x amount of dollars? Again, probably not.

Elites do not need exclusivity, they need new content. WoW is a perfect example.

But put up signs that says "There is a 99% that you will either not have access to this or will never afford it" really kills one's intent to invest time and possibly money in the future. It will do more harm than good in the long and short run.

You are missing the point a little. This is not because I want aura, that was an example. And has anyone seen angel wings yet? The point is that whether you pay to play or not you have to roll the dice and the odds are stacked against you big time for whatever it is you want. Eltia (#27) sums it up nicely.

Tonight there were already people with full snarby 5* sets. Do they like it less because they know others will have them eventually? I doubt it. That IS the balancing act, getting the content earlier and walking around the fountain.

And in my opinion the shadow key is not different than accessories. They are obtained the same way and the risks are similar in regards to getting accessories. But they are both potentially problematic. And if we accept this, then what is next? Whether it is a shadow key or toasty goggles they are both very important based on principle.

But there already is exclusive content for those that pay and the the amount. You get certain costumes like the rose regalia, etc. for paying. And the elites' favorite and most important thing in the world...beta testing.

But they should not have exclusivity to any functioning armor, weapons, levels or tiers under any circumstances, and that is what this update inadvertently did. It was the way Three Rings implemented it, not what it was. And making something cost 600,000cr IS making it exclusive to the "average gamer".

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 01:55

#31

Nighty-Mx

Nick how you can justify the

Nick how you can justify the way you implement the shadow key to access new content ?? i know OOO need money but this way??? really you said the chances to get a shadow key its greater than any other accesories? that its a lie.

i have opened 7 lock boxes and i just get accesories that i dont really want. i really was so excited about the new content but hey! you need a shadow key and HEY! you only get them from lock boxes. so i guess the chance to get a shadow key its just less than get a wolver tail or even more low than we can think.
i dont going to open anymore boxes really dont worth to spent even 10 dls to see if the freaking box would give me a shadow key. seriously lot of time to get a another part to do a run but then the only way its just opening lock boxes. i spent at least 20 dls opening those boxes not going to sink more CE worth 35 dls to just see if just 1 box have what i need to see the new stuff.

really just even pay for 3000 Ce from boost the vendor would be ok for a shadow key at least i have a sure way to get it but no really i never have seen before that the player MUST paid TO GET A CHANCE to see the NEW STUFF so there would be new stuff that the really lucky ones would see and while other that really support OOO with our MONEY wouldnt GET a chance until spent maybe 110 dls??? no seriously thats painful.

also: just giving away codes its the same thing that open a box just in this case not CE involved just time, but always the same thing: just matter of luck to get a shadow key. oh well :/ , at least something like rose regalia but just get a shadow key for a certain amount of CE purchase from the store would be even more fair to us but i guess everything has been set and that would be the only way,

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 01:57

#32

Eclecicmessiah

Whoever was the first one to

Whoever was the first one to say that chance is now ruling this game, you said it best. Chance should not rule a game. There needs to be some absolute certainity, and access to long awaited, critical, FUN, DIFFICULT content needs to be certain, especially with how much of a scam Punch already is.

I am tired of complaining. I am giving this game 3 weeks to either DRASTICALLY drop the prices of shadow keys (I am talking, i.e., like 40k MAX for a key that lasts 5 runs), or rework the system entirely. It is like they wrote some chance program, and they really love it, so they are going to spam it in every update.

After those 3 weeks, if neither of those things happen, I am gone at least for several months. I was a good paying customer, and an end-gamer too. Funny how I am BOTH of the types of players this new content is supposed to appeal to, yet I am close to quitting. Instead of grabbing tons of new money like OOO wants, they are about to lose future money: look at big picture $$$ instead of short term dough, OOO.

I am so done ranting about this, it is obvious that 99% of people who this update really applies to are extremely mad. Saw a few elite players shockingly sell their things for unbind today and quit. The whole "OOO love" thread is bs too. First off, Occupyhaven is an example of how us "haters" are not just a minority who is vocal. Occupyhaven had 1.5-2k visitors by my estimates since it started. That is NOT a minority. Second, even if we were a minority, that is what this content is AIMED AT IN THE FIRST PLACE. To all you people droning OOO, you must not really understand the update, or it must not apply to you yet, because you simply arent a master enough of this game to require such a difficult set of new levels. In that case, get your act together first before you rip into this "vocal minority," you dont know how long some of us have been waiting for this. Go deal with t2 and normal t3, heck, truly MASTER normal vana before you even post about this new update. (Solo stage 5 in a 4 man with no deaths using no pills).

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 02:04

#33

Paweu

I don't think you can fight

I don't think you can fight off your addiction so easily if you have to threaten with your wallet.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 02:08

#34

Eclecicmessiah

Yet another not well thought

Yet another not well thought out post from someone who probably doesnt have any business commenting on the new update in the first place. You are missing the point here: I am not addicted, and I am threatening simply to prove it. Someone who was so addicted wouldnt bother threatening, they would keep playing because they have to.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 02:45

#35

Fewz

I fully support this

First of all; big up to the OP.
Very well adressed the situation at hand currently, and i can fully agree with his stated opinion (doesn't happen often).
As an end game player; even i am not going to play the new shadowdepths if the costs are as they are currently.

OOO ; this needs fixing...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 04:11

#36

Eternal-Koniko

Lockboxes

Personally Any game That has a "Treasure box" is going to get people upset. Many games have treasure boxes where it cost money to get the box and money to open the box. Spiral Knights has made up for the fact that we dont have to pay real money for the actual lockbox and only to open it by Making the prizes Either useless (Accessories) or Unlikely to be found(Shadow Keys) ......Honestly I wouldnt be so upset if they hadnt realeased the so close together, I cant keep up with the updates. I have no accessories nor a shadow key because Im trying to use my money for the trick or treat event, But I will probally never open a lockbox unless I magically get a key somehow

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 04:57

#37

Triarii

Garlicveggie:

I agree. I will probably never play unless I stumble upon a shadow key and will probably never own an accessory if they stay anywhere close to their current price (btw OOO, how can you create accessories and not include CAPES? Worse than the shadow key epidemic imo, lol.)

But us knights have had treasure boxes and random drops since day one. Granted they were not this "important" as in the past, but there nonetheless. While Nick (again, thank you for this game) did address this issue on this post, he did not answer my concerns (post #16-now).

The big issue is still this: We shouldn't have a lottery's chance in playing new, game-changing content. This isn't some costume mask, this isn't a beta test, this isn't a UV or accessory. A lot of people (apparently average and elite alike) are not missing out on some "extra" gizmo, but a PART of the entire game itself. We are missing out on new levels, revamped bosses, new mats that make new helms and armor sets.

If OOO wants to start charging, fine. It is their creation and who am I to dictate? But you cannot call it "free to play" and you will loose a lot of support and income. This isn't some rant about how the little guy is getting hosed, it is that this update has a negative effect on both sides, admin and knights alike.

I'm starting to think that OOO did this on purpose in a ruse like the "New Coke" tactic. They already have people willing to shell out 3000CE, which is 300 times the amount for one gate currently.

Simple recap:

Cost to play lottery = bad

Lottery for new game content = very bad

If not changed it will destroy the game through elitists who will control (through guilds) who will be able to buy a ticket to play in the shadow lairs (sounds a lot like the old Basil passages right?). Once they have financial control "average gamers" will be bullied out. Once we leave elitists will have no one to bully and stop paying.

GREAT ideas and content, BAD implementation.

SK is shutting down for routine maintenance in like 20 minutes. Let's be optimistic people.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 05:06

#38

Ekita

I agree with this

When I saw this update was was slightly appalled knowing that I was pushed back in progression PvE content wise.Almost feels like WoW again because I know i will never have the time or the right group to do "Heroic Mode" of any of the new T-3 stratums.I even payed for CE awhile back and thought about paying again,but why spend money out of pocket for a chance at a key to content I will never find a group to beat?

The entire lock box thing is annoying,for several reasons.

[Edit] added some extra info,and corrected some typos.

1.Keys are expensive CE wise,or simply unprofitable to sell because people won't buy the keys unless they are somewhere below 60k (with standard prices,a silver key is around 48k:800CE = 8x6000) which would only generate a 2k-10k profit.
2.Can't profit from accessories unless I get something rarely seen or too awesome,ex:the Regal Wolver tail in the AH going for a bid at 1 million crowns and buyout of 3.5 million.
3.Can't make any good profit from selling the lock boxes either,the prices were alright after a day or two (around 25k),but now they are way to cheap too sell.
4.I've gotten 5 lock boxes from runs in the last week and can't do anything with them because of everything above ><.

I almost wish they would nerf the drop rate on the lock boxes.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 05:32

#39

Asthix

Quotes

Triarii: "I can assume that OOO did not make this content with its intention of being esoteric or elitist, but that was the end result."

I'm pretty confident that they did make this content with the idea of it being specifically elitist.

Business Lady: "The average players probably do not care that they have no access to those contents."

Oh I care a lot. Just not enough to pay for it. I'm ok with that and three rings wouldn't have released it unless they were too.

The reason I call myself a casual gamer is because I am bad a making CE. The rut I've settled into makes about 500 a week. Since a lot of people move faster than that I'm bound to get left behind. Now it's finally happening. As long as this game lasts until spring I'll be able to try the new content eventually.

Ok, crazy idea time. Three rings obviously knows the 'average' price that a shadow key costs from the data they've been collecting on the keys to boxes opened ratio. (In other words how much CE it actually costs until the average box opener gets a shadow key) It seems likely to me that if they make a change to sell them for that price at a vendor while keeping the chance of getting them in boxes, the furor would die down.

With that said, it seems three rings is not willing to make shadow keys available without first getting silver keys in order to keep lockboxes viable. I can't see any way around that.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 07:12

#40

Ehsan

My Comments (Please take the time to read it, it's important)

Hello all,

My name's Ehsan and I'm a 5* player who plays casually. I'm an average gamer, just a step above some of the rest. I don't spend much real money on CE either.

Firstly I'll like to say that this update has been the only one that is disappointing ever since I started right after the game was released after beta. I think it is not right to be so profit-oriented. 750 CE for a silver key is a bit steep, and not even letting that give a good chance of getting a shadow key makes it downright preposterous. Like everyone here, I do agree that the game is going a bit elitist. Sure, I do understand that all of you have to make money, but your fan base is increasing minutely and frankly speaking, appealing only to the top few players isn't even the right way to make an extra buck-it's just gonna deter others and decrease your fan base.

I'm not saying that we should make everything extremely affordable. I'm just saying that we should make them attainable. I'm pretty good at economics and I know a thing or two about supply and demand curves. Everyone wants a shadow key. It's awesome. But currently (I'm pretty sure) there'll less than 50 in existence. Only 10 (or less) of which have gone in the market. With 1 mllion (or more) players going after 10 keys, obviously each key is going to be priced at a ludicrously high price and only the most elite players would be able to afford them. (600k, the current market price=10000CE= $25) I feel that 25 bucks for some exclusive new content (that's not even good! Some sources say that the Snarbolax set is horrible.) is definitely going over the edge.

Thus, we have concluded that it is preposterously expensive and way out of the means of even the average 5* player to get the new shadow key. That concludes my first point.

My second point is an elaboration of the point on elitism. Sure, the Halloween masks and everything are wonderful, but the new shadow levels and all the supposedly cool and exclusive new 5* gear is only available to veterans. Even the arguably most skilled 4 players find the new Snarbolax level extremely challenging and the rewards utterly not worth the cost. So surely you can't expect even me to be able to obtain ANY shadow equipment, let alone a 4* player? Also, what about Tier 1 and 2 players? Should they only be limited to masks, which many of them can't even afford? It is wrong to appeal greatly to solely the most elite players.

I do not disagree with profit orientation, but OOO, I feel that there is a line and you're dangerously close to it. I beg of you, don't go down the road of Warcraft or any other games that have been ruined by avarice. Please, this is the best game I have played in a long time, and the fact that it is easy even for someone who does not spend much like myself makes it all the more appealing. Please spare a thought for us 'average' players.

Thank you, and I sincerely hope you do not take this the wrong way.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 07:20

#41

Ehsan

A Few Suggestions

To rectify some problems above, I do have a thought or two:

1) Make shadow keys MUCH more affordable. Sell them for a fixed amount of crowns. 10k for a tier 1 player, 30k for a tier 2 player and 75k for a tier 3 player would be about right.

2) Make shadow levels for everyone. Tier 1 players pay 10k to play the Snarbolax levels with its own set of rewards, tier 2 players for the Twins, etc.

3) Make silver keys more affordable. Currently, anyone who's not 5* likely cannot even afford to buy a single silver key, let alone get the accessory he or she wants. 750CE (that's $2.50) for a 0.03% chance of getting a desired accessory is definitely unacceptable. Consider making it cheaper, or perhaps letting us choose the colour? It's alright if the accessory is randomized, but I feel it is fair to let the player control another factor-the colour.

Just my two cents, so to speak. Please don't take this the wrong way.

I also apologise for any harshness in my posts. They are unintentional, but I was typing in a mix of rage, annoyance and sadness.

Once again, I would like to express my love for Spiral Knights, and sincerely hope that it would not take a downfall like so many other great games have done in the past. Let this be the one game that lasts, and show the world that profit-orientation does not have to result in excessive greed or elitism.

With heartfelt hopes,
Ehsan

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 07:28

#42

Molwar

I think just making keys

I think just making keys available in the wheel prize as well as sell them would pretty much solve the issue. Free to play players can still get them, but it takes longer (which is what you want) and ppl wanting to dish out money to accelerate the process can still do so. Result = everyone happy.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 07:57

#43

Bindi-Badgi

The most simple solution, and one that will cause the least problems is to make shadow keys available from boost at a fixed price. People are happy to pay for content, just remove the lottery please, I can stomach it on punch (to a point), I can stomach it on accessories (not interested anyway) but please don't make end game content part of spiral casino please.

Tell me how much I costs to run the shadow stuff and I will consider paying cash to run it - don't you dare make me roll more dice with my cash.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 08:03

#44

Redmania

$20 for unlocking 4-5

$20 for unlocking 4-5 lockboxes or $20 for Torchlight 2?

You decide.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 08:41

#45

Nighty-Mx

it useless once people have

it useless once people have been blinded with the greed and the money the wouldnt listen any reason. even they dont care really. i know there was complains before every update even the accesories one.
but THIS TIME is something that disturb most of the player poblation who was waiting for new content but now that we have it, it just a gambling game opening and opening lockboxes 7 lock boxes and not a shadow key and obviously opening more will give me 1? maybe or maybe not but im not going to spent my energy reserve like that it just waste money. money that i spent TO PLAY not to gamble and see if i have the chance to PLAY.

not matter how many times i look this trying to find the reason. gambling to PLAY new CONTENT?? how this could be reasonable???

you say: chances to get shadow key have higher chance than accesories do - i belive more on Triarii speculation than your words. or maybe you dont want to say us that chances are even more low (probably this business anyway)

you say: you can get it on AH. always if the seller dont left it as just bid and give it a Buyout price and that if its a price that really worth it otherwise the access would be the same thing: matter of luck. Even the giveaway of codes it still matter of luck.

in the way that theyre showing us the road that this awesome game its taking its: Gambling to Play (G2P) "Welcome to Gambling Knights" ;)

but after this BIG deception i think i would save the money to get Capsized or any other good indie game where at least i wouldnt be Gambling to play.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 10:23

#46

Aubie

Way to go Triarii! I like what you started!

Let me start by saying that I think I am on the fringe of the target audience for this new update. I have bought CE with cash. I have two characters, both which have multiple 5* sets. I play almost every day. That being said, I will never use the new content.

Why? It's just not worth it. The reward is just not worth spending the CE on it. People are talking about how expensive it is just getting into the Shadow Lair and I'm thinking about what do I get out of it? If there are better armor sets out there, why waste the time and energy for the new sets? Because they look cool? The novelty will wear off. Being challenged and rewarded is better than a shiny new toy.

Lockboxes? I will never open one and have sold every one I have ever gotten.
Silver key? No need for them.
Shadow key? Unattainable by me.

That's the way it is for most people playing SK, except some will open the Lockbox in hopes of getting a Shadow Key.

I really hope OOO takes note. It's apparent that I'm not the only one with this opinion.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 09:57

#47

Redmania

Suggestion to OOO.

Actually, I just thought of a good idea.

Because OOO put a paid wall behind this new content, players that haven't been on the test realm have no idea what it looks like.
It would have been a good idea for OOO to give EVERY KNIGHT with tier 3 access (i.e. got clearance from Spiral Warden for tier 3) a SINGLE, NON-TRADABLE KEY. For those without tier 3 access, one of these keys could be given as a reward for tier 3 access, in addition to the mist tank that was originally given for completing that task.

This allows players to get a grasp of what the levels feel like. Because right now, it's just a giant unknown to people like me who haven't tested it and for me, I don't walk into things unprepared and without knowing what is ahead of me.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 09:58

#48

Yatterman

Really annoyed....

I just wanted ONE freaking shadow key... I had a stack of 20k CE for over 4 months from the packs I got, barely used any of it... This new update comes out and I get disappointed, but I had high hopes of getting a key

FIFTEEN LOCKBOXES AND A BUNCH OF CRAP LATER AND NOW I AM DOWN TO 7K

What the hell OOO, I pay good money on my CE so I can play with my friends and such, I was hoping for at least 1 shadow key so I could take them down for a Shadow Lair run. And this is how it goes down? A bunch of crap headbands, and nothing worth selling accessories wise... Thanks a lot...

Good game 20k CE pile...

I am total agreement with this topics points, why did you make it so damn hard to get these keys! (Granted, you are trying to make a legitimate business, but disappointing your player base, especially the end game content players who are pretty much your main source of income, is not the ideal way) Did you really have to make it a chance to get them from Lock Boxes... I would have been happier with say... Setting a specific price for a key, even 1000 CE I would have been fine with (I am sure some of the others would be fine with that too...), or maybe a different kind of Lockbox, one that doesn't give you potential CRAP, I don't know... The effort I have to go through, and the money out of my wallet is just rediculas to even get one dang key!

Oh, sure I could potentially buy one off the AH for a buyout pice of 300k - 400k... But I don't have all day to sit at my computer making sure I win one auction, that is not reasonable. This update has gotten me so annoyed that I might just stop playing after latterly losing almost all of the CE I payed my hard earned money for... Thanks for ruining my day, OOO...

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 10:14

#49

Razor-Dash

@Nighty-Mx I agree with you,

@Nighty-Mx I agree with you, they don't really care much for our complaints. But if they see a thread that praises their work, THEN that's a completely different case. Typical.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 10:31

#50

Nodocchi

Spiral Knights has always

Spiral Knights has always been chance based, from the very beginning UVs made it so that only the top players can have the best stuff. A useful maximum UV sells for 20k+ CE, and if people wanted one they'd either buy one off the AH or rage craft them. These new updates aren't very different, the rare accessories and Shadow Keys everyone wants are like max UVs, the only difference is how much each try at obtaining one costs. I say the mistake OOO made was pricing the silver keys so high and making it guaranteed to get something from a lockbox. If they priced the keys at 50CE each and padded the lockbox so people had only a 1 in 15 chance of getting an accessory then I think the complaints probably won't be as furious as they are now. The amount of money people spend for something they want works out to around the same but I doubt people would be as vocal about having to spend 50 CE per try.

@Triarii
You complain about Shadow Keys and rare accessories being unobtainable because no one is going to sell them on the AH but this has always been the case with rare UVs. Why complain about this and not the other? I doubt the new content is anything extraordinary, people have already made it clear that the new armour sets are not better than what we have now, so what we really end up with is just a bunch of new costumes/prestige items. Are you really complaining because you can't get a couple of prestige items given how little you actually play?

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An opinion from "the average gamer" on the updates and SK up to now.