Spiral Knights - The Dreaded "B" Word...Balance (With some numbers!)

The Dreaded "B" Word...Balance (With some numbers!)

28 replies [Last post]

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 13:08

Sir-Dimwit

Good day everyone! I bring up an important topic today (that has probably been beaten dead). I'm concerned about the "balance" of equipment in this game. Generally, when one sees more than 50% of the population utilizing a set choice of weapons, there's a good chance that those weapons are too powerful or other weapons just aren't up to snuff. Today I bring up one "imbalance" in particular -- The Sudaruska (or Triglav) VS Divine Avenger (or Gran Faust).

Divine Avenger Versus Sudaruska

Why these two weapons?
These weapons are both "heavy swords", meaning they have the same attack animation and same reach. Furthermore, it seems that (FROM OBSERVATION) the knockback of the two swords are the same. Thus they are similar enough that they may be compared without necessarily claiming "apples and oranges." Plus, a large population uses the Divine Avenger, implying that it's either a "fad" or it is indeed the better of the two weapons.

The Method and Assumptions
Using FRAPS, I recorded the swinging of both the Sudaruska and Divine Avenger. Each swing would start from Shield and end in shield. That is:
Shield -> Swing -> Swing #2 (if done) -> Shield.
Using this, I measured the time it took from one frame BEFORE the arm-movement of the swing, to the FIRST frame that the shield appeared (I recorded at 30 FPS).
My ASSUMPTION(S) is that at the moment the shield is up, another attack may begin. Yes, there is a lul between the shield going down and the swing commencing, but I ASSUME that the time is the same for both swords, which does NOT mean it's negligible, but just something I decided not to include. Why not include it? Potential of human error (My shield-cancel could be late/slow, thus fudging numbers). If someone else wishes to do it with the "full cycle", by all means! I just didn't want to do it :D

The Times
UPDATE ON POST #13
Very simply, here are the times I recorded for the Swords and Swings:
Divine Avenger (First Swing Only): ~0.8 seconds
Divine Avenger (Both Swings): ~2.1 seconds
Sudaruska (First Swing Only): ~0.9 seconds
Sudaruska (Both Swings): ~2.34 seconds.
From this we see that the Sudaruska is, indeed, a slower sword. But slower doesn't mean worse, right? Let's look at the damage!

The Raw Damage
All damage used was taken from the respective Wiki pages:
Sudaruska: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Sudaruska
Divine Avenger: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Divine_Avenger
I used the final damages since they offer the greates significant digits and would (ideally) show any differences the best.
NOTE: There seems to be a numerical error on the Divine Avenger damage tables. For the "Neutral" first hit, it goes from 241-234, decreasing in damage. I THINK it should be 241-254 and so these are the numbers I will be using. The numbers in parentheses will represent the 241-234 damage.

The DPS (Damage Per Second)
UPDATE ON POST #13
Using the above numbers, we can calculate DPS. Thus we have:

Sudaruska
One Swing: 286.66
Two Swings: 247

Divine Avenger (Versus Weakness)
One Swing: 191.25
Two Swings: 180

Divine Avenger (Versus Neutral)
One Swing: 317.25 (292.5)
Two Swings: 293.81 (284.29)

Divine Avenger (Versus Advantage)
One Swing: 410
Two Swings: 368.1

So clearly, aside from Gremlins/Beasts, the Sudaruska is clearly out-damaged.

The Charge Attack
Is this even worth mentioning? Even against Gremlins/Beasts, if the slash hits and ONE projectile connects, the damage is nearly the same as the Sudaruska. Plus the knockback is "fairly" comparable to the Sudaruska's charge hit.

Sudaruska: 468
Divine Avenger (Versus Weakness and One Projectile Hit): 452
Divine Avenger (Versus Neutral and One Projectile Hit): 731
Divine Avenger (Versus Advantage and One Projectile Hit): 872

The Conclusion
Let's see...
Higher Attack Speed: Divine Avenger
Knockback: About the same
Longer Reach: Same
Higher DPS (on the whole): Divine Avenger (Except against Gremlins/Beasts)
Better Charge Attack: Divine Avenger

To me, it really does appear that the Sudaruska is outclassed by the Divine Avenger in almost every way.

TL;DR
Divine Avenger > Sudaruska. In other words, most Normal-Damage weapons are obsolete. With the arrival of Arsenal Stations, the "weakness" of the Divine Avenger (and other weapons) is essentially gone. When the Stations were not here, the Sudaruska was reliable in that it would always deal set damage. However, it is now becoming "useless" because of the ability to swap gear. In fact, any purely "normal" damage weapon is at risk of being rendered entirely obsolete due to the Arsenal Stations. THUS I feel that this class of weapon needs a buff and some weapons should be balanced.

And do share your thoughts and concerns with present weapons! Share, and be heard!

Threads of Note
Discusses The Troika: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/29212
Disucsses some Balances in the works: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/34185

New Info (12/16/11)
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/36759
A thread has come up discussing the effects of Damage Boosts to certain swords. Preliminary work has shown that normal-only swords receive LESS of a damage boost than split-swords. However, DPS is only one form of my argument, but to me, this only adds to the "unbalanced" nature of normal-damage weapons.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 13:41

Spyash

as a question

how about Gran Faust vs. Acheron

polaris vs. supernova

dread venom striker vs. wild hunting blade

neutralizer vs. biohazard

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 13:56

Sir-Dimwit

Thanks for the Comment!

I, unfortunately, don't own those weapons so I won't be able to test them, but some of those do merit looking in to!

The Gran Faust VS Acheron may be too disimilar to adequately compare. They each have a different reach, different range, different charge and different style. As purely DPS, perhaps the acheron would be superior due to its higher attack speed, but that's not all that one may consider. I enjoy the single-swing swords. They allow me to make calculated swings that push enemies away to keep me from being damaged. The Brandish line trades "health" for damage, if I had to guess. So in comparison, it's more about taste, in my opinion

Polaris Vs Supernova: This is something potentially worth checking out. Again, I don't own the weapons necessary to perform such a test unfortunately. I SUSPECT that the Supernova will be outclassed in many ways, unfortunately (much like Suda vs DA).

Dread Venom Striker Vs Hunting Blade: The Wild Hunting blade is a niche weapon. Even with poison on a wolver, I think the Hunting Blade would out-damage the 'traditional' Dread Venom Striker. However, this is the only case where HB > DVS, so I would like to see a damage boost versus, say, Gremlin in addition to the damage VS Wolver.

Neutralizer Vs Biohazard: No clue! Testing would be in order if I had the weapons and willpower to try :D

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 14:10

Spyash

see for gran faust an acheron

they both do shadow and are very different which is why i'm wondering

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 14:23

Jacktehripper

The Sealed Sword line should be better.

How do you get the Sudaruska or the Triglav? You get recipes and make them, or buy it and them make them, starting with the 2* verison, the Troika.
How do you get the Divine Avenger? You need to beat the Jelly King numerous times to earn enough tokens to be able to buy the Sealed Sword, you then need to go and get the recipes and craft to make the Avenger and Divine Avenger. Alternatively, you can spend money and then buy it.

Items obtained from bosses are meant to be better, or else there is no point in having bosses.

To make the comparison fair (and not be comparing apples and oranges) you need to also consider how you get the items, not just what they are like.
A comparison between the Wild Hunting Blade and Dread Venom Striker is valid, as they are very similar, and obtained in very similar ways. You just can't compare generic items with those obtained from bosses.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 01:48

Sir-Dimwit

A Good Point

You bring up a strong and valid point, Jack. I will contend, however, that...who said boss items were supposed to be better? It seems "implied" that the items should be good because of the effort required to obtain them, but I do not believe that this idea is stated anywhere. If effort was proportional to the reward, then shouldn't the Triglav be good because it costs ~300 Krogmo tokens, which requires substantial effort? How about the Stagger Storm (also ~300 tokens)? These items are biproducts of PvP runs, much like the Sealed Sword is a biproduct of JK runs.

Similarly, consider the Flourish vs Snarble Barb. Both have identical stats, the only difference being charged attacks, and that boils down to a matter of preference. One is a boss item, the other is a recipe item. Then shouldn't the Snarble be better? If you argue "no", then why should the Divine Avenger be better than Sudaruska in just about every way?

[EDIT: D'oh, I meant "Flourish" instead of "Faust". Not the first time I've made that mistake XD]

How about the Fang of Vog? Does that a weapon outclass the Calibur entirely? (That's actually a question...I don't own either weapon so I don't know). Boss weapons should be good, but they shouldn't necessarily ecclipse another weapon entirely.

Furthermore, consider the additional funds you get while doing the runs. If a single run yields ~3k (just the palace levels leading up to the JK), and each run yields 4 tokens, you've made 15k crowns and got a 3* sword. Recipe weapons, however, necessitate you delving into clockwords and then using those funds to up your item. You don't get funds and a sword. You get funds to buy/upgrade a sword.

Regardless, you did bring up a point that I failed to examine, and I appreciate that view. Thank you for your input and take care!

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 15:32

Effrul

The Troika line generally is

The Troika line generally is pretty badly maltreated; I don't think I've ever even seen a 5* one in the field. The Sudaruska gets the worst of it because, well, Normal damage weapons are kind of supposed to be a smidge underpowered; their principle strength is that they're versatile, with no monster family having any particular resistance to it. This is entirely fine by me in the case of the Calibur line, as the recipes are always easily available from Kozma, but rankles a little in the case of the Troika, which has to be crafted from Basil or AH recipes.

(PS: Faust and Snarble Barb are both boss items.)

The Fang of Vog is a total monster but that's because beating Vanaduke the required eight or so times is hard work. I don't know what its damage output versus Elemental-resistant enemies is like, though.

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 15:33

Sir-Dimwit

Also...

It should be noted that I am not in favor of "nerfing" weapons. This game is not a good game to nerf items since people do spend real money to buy CE specifically to purchase some weapons with special UVs and such. My suggestion is to buff or balance, so those with super-special-awesome weapons or whatever don't need to lament the loss of money over the nerfing of their favorite gear.

Take care!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 02:00

Sir-Dimwit

Thank you.

Thank you for your response and view Effrul. I agree that a normal-damage weapon's "principle strength" is its versatility. I love knowing how my weapon will behave in all instances. However, my fear is that the Arsenal Station has destroyed the need for versatility (I'm not complaining about Arsenal Stations. I LOVE them, but I'm just noting their effect on weapons, as I perceive it).

My hopeful change, to the Sudaruska in particular, would be a damage boost (nothing large, just enough to put from a "smidge underpowered" to comfortably powerful). Heck, increasing it's attack speed to match the Sealed Sword would give it a enough DPS to match/surpass the Sealed Sword against "neutral" foes. I'd also love to see the charge of the Sudaruska improved as the DA simply is better.

Anywho, this thread isn't just about the Troika-line (and I'm guilty of being biased. I really enjoy the Troika). Feel free to talk about other "balance issues," as you see them. I would love to see a moderator or someone of power poke their head in here. *wink wink nudge nudge*

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 12:47

Zincknight

i completely agree

the Triglav which i spent many hours playing LD to get has a showy charge that does less damage than my glacius against neutral mobs... i find it really unbalanced as glacius charge can be executed easily with low risk hit alot of enemies and has explosions to follow. while triglav leaves u open... uncertain freeze or knockback bad damage. even disregarding the charge Triglav damage is quite the joke...

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 16:04

#10

Tsubasa-No-Me

Idea! ^3^

So, after reading Dim's fabulous comments, remarks, and suggestions, my mind snapped on a few ideas... Unfortunately, they're mostly animation and a little rewriting of some coding, which, in my almost 2 months of playing this game (Hey! i'm no noob! >.> I read the wiki, and scour the forums) I have never seen or heard or any new animations being made for pre-existing weapons. So, meh.

The combo.
Welp, its slower, less damage, and a little more knockback - but just a tad bit. In other words: Fun, but practically useless. Which makes me want to cry, seeing as I use Khorovod exclusively. So to fix that, I might suggest expanding the first hit from 180° to 220° or 230° and adding a second hitbox that runs in the middle, doing about 23% of the actual swing, dealing 0 knockback, and connecting at the same moment as the full swing. It should feel like they get punished for being so close to the person swinging the mountainous sword at them. >:3 (Linkage to a horrible 30 second paint job ;) http://www.fileize.com/view/b8f810dd-59c/

The final blow should be tweaked a bit too. And by a bit, i mean a lot. ;D I like the spin, so if you spin it above your head and smash it down for an AoE. (Like Dim's suggestion in the Troika link [I think :] ) the AOE should be slightly smaller than charge, do normal damage for the Suda/Triglav with their respective status, and normal knockback. AND (--- the exiting part :D ) whoever is caught under the blade itself will be dealt an extra 25% damage and 25% of the knockback of the 2nd hit we have now.

Now, using the data from Dim's testing, the damage: (Sorry Dim, I'm too tired to figure out what math you did up there -.-; )

Suda: 718.59 full combo, all extra damage. DPS: ~307.08

DA: 622 DPS: 296.19

This boosts the Suda's DPS up to where it should be, just above the SS
Series.

The Charge.
Lets face it, its not that great. Fun, but not great. But to make it better, I think that some more tweaks are in order. To put it frankly, Add 30% more damage, and add spiked rocks that spawn on impact (Similar to Lichen Colony's spikes) that stick around for, say 3 to 4 seconds, deal no knockback, and ~90 damage every 1.5 seconds that a foe is on it.

Unfortunatly, I have no other weapons to balance ATM... (Realizes she prolly ought to get more varity in weapons. O.o)

Later!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 17:29

#11

Nodocchi

The Sudaruska does less

The Sudaruska does less damage than the Divine Avenger against a neutral target because it is able to inflict a status effect. You will notice that swords that can inflict status effects normally have less damage than their counterparts which cannot. As well, it is extremely expensive to obtain a UV from a boss weapon but much easier to do so with a normal weapon. The reason? The weapon you trade for tokens doesn't have a chance to get a UV when you trade. Which means you either go to the gremlin brothers or you craft them to 4*. On the other hand, you can mass craft the 2* versions of swords like the Sudaruska and get a good UV before upgrading it. In addition you can sell the excess swords for money. In fact if you do it using only mist energy, you stand to make money from the process. There are advantages to the Sudaruska though they may not be as obvious.

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 19:54

#12

Sir-Dimwit

Very Good Points!

I appreciate the comment Nodocchi! You certainly have good views that I overlooked, so thank you for your input! If you don't mind, I will dissect your argument a bit and look at its components (and remember, I do have a bias towards the Sudaruska, so take my comments as you will).

The status infliction is a nice point. For those who are unaware, the Sudaruska has a possibility of applying stun to a foe when hit with the charge attack. However, the probability is fairly low. I'd wager there's a 30% chance (or less) of inflicting stun so it certainly isn't a reliable source of the status. Furthermore, there's a glitch with stun where a telescoping enemy may finish their attack immediately when hit with stun. [I've used a charge on a lumber and as my sword was dropping down, it began to telescope and when my weapon hit, the lumber was affected by stun and I was immediately hit by the lumber. At this time, the lumber barely even had its arm up. There were no other foes around so it was the lumber that smooshed me] I also don't necessarily feel the "stun" effect is all that useful to the Sudaruska, but that's my own opinion (I could explain why, but that'd take another 50 paragraphs because I'm wordy). Anywho, I (personally) don't feel that the status effect merits a decrease in damage, but your point is certainly valid! Thank you for it!

The UV notion is an excellent point as well! [I'll quickly interject that crafting 2* items for "profit" isn't the most lucrative way to go. I can make 1k+ more doing the first tier of clockworks at the cost of 60ME. I then use that money to buy the UV I want XD] However, of all the UVs, the most desirable ones are quite rare anyway, so in some regards, it's easier to pay the 20k ticket to get a UV than to roll 10 swords to get something. [I've crafted 20+ swords to end up with a UV low versus constructs XD] Nonetheless, your point is certainly valid! I simply don't think that UVs should hold a pertinent role in the balance of a weapon. That is, I don't think some developer with a Prismatic Mustache is sitting at OOO/Sega thinking "This weapon is certainly balanced because it can get UVs easier!" However, that is my opinion and you are certainly welcome to do with it as you will! Thank you again for your insights!

I have a challenge for those of you willing to take it! Take a Sudaruska/Triglav instead of a DA and/or GF and see if the weapon feels "balanced." if you don't have one, go for the 3* version. Unlike the Sealed Sword, there's no difference in damage type at 4* or 5*, so you can get a taste of the sword at lower tiers with just 3*. However, I suspect if you try the Sudaruska at Tier 3 you'd be sorely disappointed.

Thank you guys for your time and input! Keep it coming! Don't be afraid to talk about other weapons (although I certainly enjoy the topics pertaining to Sudaruska). Have a nice day/night!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 21:02

#13

Sir-Dimwit

Update

Hello everyone! I’m here to supply an update on numbers! After performing more tests, I’ve found that the Sudaruska and the DA/GF have the same (or very similar) shield-cancel speed. That is: Attack -> Shield -> Attack -> Shield. In my reviews, these speeds are nigh identical, which is good news, in my opinion. Both swords clocked in at about 1.15 seconds per Swing & Shield Cancel. I also tried a new test for the 2-swing combo.

The Method 2.0
For the 1-swing attack, I simply attacked and shield-canceled as swiftly as I could 4 times in a row (Attack -> Shield -> Attack -> Shield -> … -> Shield). This has human-error involved, so I apologize for that, but I took the cleanest and fastest cancels I could from my trials. I measured the time one frame before the initial swing and one frame before a 5th swing (yes, fifth. Only 4 swings were measured, though). The times were nearly identical:

Sudaruska: 1.1575 seconds per shield-cancel
Divine Avenger: 1.155 seconds per shield-cancel.

For my sanity, I’m going to say both weapons have the same shield-cancel times of 1.15 seconds each.

For the 2-combo attack, the method I used is as follows: I performed 14 “combo” attacks in rapid succession (Attack -> Attack -> Attack -> …). The time I recorded started one frame before the first attack and ended one frame before the hand-movement of the 14th combo (so 13 complete combos were recorded). The times were as follows:

Sudaruska: ~29.46 seconds for 13 combos
Divine Avenger: ~26.67 seconds for 13 combos

Thus the “average” time for two swings are:

Sudaruska: ~2.27 seconds
Divine Avenger: ~2.05 seconds

The DPS 2.0
Note: It seems that by using Shield-Cancel, the times for the Divine Avenger and Sudaruska are the same, so the single swing and the 2-swing combo will now have their numbers redone. (A single swing + cancel comes to about 1.15 seconds). The new Damage Per Second is as follows:

Sudaruska
One Swing: 224.35
Two Swings: 255.07

Divine Avenger (Versus Weakness)
One Swing: 133.04
Two Swings: 184.39

Divine Avenger (Versus Neutral)
One Swing: 220.87
Two Swings: 300.98

Divine Avenger (Versus Advantage)
One Swing: 285.22
Two Swings: 377.07

In light of these new numbers, it appears that the Sudaruska certainly surpasses the Divine Avenger against Gremlins/Beasts, but after that the advantage leans toward the Divine Avenger. These numbers certainly do shine a more favorable light on the Sudaruska than my previous numbers, but I don’t feel it’s enough to justify the Sudaruska as a viable alternative to the Divine Avenger in any case but PERHAPS Gremlins/Beasts (but the Gran Faust covers this gap as better than the Sudaruska, so why not just go that instead).

The ONLY advantage the Sudaruska offers is that it’s a “one size fits all” sword, but with how the game is at the moment (Arsenal Stations), the need for a generic weapon is not there. The Kamarin (3* Sudaruska) does provide a “substitute” until one attains the Divine Avenger or Gran Faust, but once one has said weapon, there’s no reason to go back to the Khorovod/Sudaruska.

I would love to see some PvP opinions on the Sudaruska as well! Is it junk? Is it a secret weapon of untold power? Does the charge attack kill in a single smash? Your input is valued!

And as always, thank you for your time. Do feel free to talk about other weapons!

Tue, 12/13/2011 - 21:53

#14

Tsubasa-No-Me

As to your challenge...

I have both a Grintovec and a Sealed Sword, and have tested as to your challenge. My results:

Speed.
The speed of the two swords was about the same, but it was noticeable to me that the SS let loose its combo faster and allowed to knockback shield faster than the Grintovec. For those who don't know, knockback shielding is when you time your hits to knock back your foe just before they hit you. In the case of Grin/SS, it was to see how many jellys you could successively shield away. The SS won that round due to a faster second swing.

SS|Grin
1 | 0

Power.
The power was a bit hard to judge, seeing as they did ~ the same damage. In the end the Grintovec made me feel like a frosty queen with a frozen scepter, but the SS was just faster at killing them. I WANT to say the Grintovec won that one, but I better be fair. :C

SS|Grin
2 | 0

Awesomeness.
Yes, I had to do this category. X3 Now, don't get me wrong, a sword sealed by monks in a far away past looks awesome with all its Omamori Paper flying everywhere... (Get a hold of you're self, your otaku side is showing! O.o) BUT! Having a sword bigger than you being swung in ONE HAND is far more BA than paper. In my opinion anyways. >u<

SS|Grin
2 | 1 (And no, this was most definitely NOT a way for the Grin to score more points X3 )

And I have already Done a PvP test, one lasting several rounds... The reason i still use the Grintovec for PvP is FOR its charge, now granted, it is hard to use, but you can predict where striker will go, and, well... when you die buy a Grintovec Charge your mind races around a bit... like so: "Why cant I move?!?! WTF!!! he killed me with THAT?? (Gets a disgusted look.) Y-your a noob thats what! >.> (Races in again, from a different angle and promptly gets squashed.) !#(^%(!^)!*%^# *Ragequit*" Or "lol guys i can totally take thi- O.O Frozen? ...WTH?!?! i'm a sitting duck to that crappy sword??? graaah!"

Needless to say, I have caused much depression, Ragequits, and caused enemy moral to plummet so far as to get 6000k damage in t2 LD with the Grin, as well as 4 wolvers sitting there, frozen, dreading where I'll strike from next.

By the way, the SS/Grintovec are Very effective recon weapons, massive damage coupled with ninja'ing or a mark can decimate up to 3 strikers at once... >;3

I also want to dispute the the status effects. Now, I agree that having fire or shock should cause a bit of a drop in damage, stun has no particular damage associated with it (Freeze has thaw damage) and the knock back causes even lumbars and )@^*& HUGE Lichens colonys to go so far away you cant possibly use it to your advantage because by the time you get there its already worn off...

~Tsubasa-No-Me

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 16:02

#15

Jacktehripper

Re: Good point.

Firstly, the Snarbolox is hardly a boss. Yes, it should be slightly better, but only slightly.

As for PvP being a reward, don't you get a token regardless of how well you do? So while sure, it will take time, I wouldn't call it effort or difficulty. The boss rewards are meant to be better because the boss is harder and requires skill to beat (or a bunch of energy to continually revive). The Jelly King was this especially as it was continually healing itself (unless poisoned) and heaps of minions trying to kill you, but I am not sure how it is now.

Yes, you get coins as a reward as well as the sword, however you get coins all over the place, and it is only the 3* sword you get. You still need the recipes and crowns and energy to make the 4 and 5* ones.
Sure you need 300 coins for the recipes, but you need 35k crowns for the recipes for the Avenger and Divine Avenger.
The coins can translate to 60k if you loose every game, or -12k if you win every game (assuming lockdown, blast network has too many variables to make calculations easy). If you win 5 for every 2 you lose, you break even and get no crowns, but spend no crowns, to get the recipes.
All it really requires is time.

As for the amount of money you get, you get similar levels in other levels, such as arenas, and you don't actually have to face the boss. The boss level itself gives you very little and can be quite difficult.

With other levels, you can go in, beat some monsters, slowly dying during the process, and if you die at any point and return to haven, you get the coins you have collected, which can slowly get enough to be able to go to AH and buy the recipe, or to craft the recipe. If you aren't going to buy the recipe off the AH, then you just need to get to basil, which isn't that hard, and is still required for the bosses. So no skill required, just time and energy (which can simply equate to more time). For the boss, you need to go through the 2 levels prior to the boss (or 4 for Vanduke) and then beat the boss. If you die and return to Haven before hand, sure you get the coins, but you don't get the tokens. This means the boss tokens require skill and effort, or energy (i.e. pay OOO).

As for FOV, I have no idea.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 16:40

#16

Nodocchi

While it is true that some

While it is true that some status effects are better than others, it mostly depends on how you use them in battle. Keep in mind that in the eyes of the game all status effects are regarded as equal. This means all haze type bombs deal the same amount of damage and have the same radius though some players may regard certain ones as more useful than others. It is the same for the Sudaruska, which has a counterpart called the Triglav that applies the freeze status. If you chose the stun status over the freeze status then that's your choice, but don't come on here and complain about how your swords need rebalancing because you don't like stun. The fact is it doesn't matter whether the status is useful to any player, because that is entirely subjective and changes based on player preference and strategy. Just the fact that there is a status at all on the sword is enough to warrant a decrease in damage.

And there certainly are developers who take into consideration how easily it is to get a UV on a weapon, take for example the haze bomb which used to be 1* and players could easily get a UV on it and craft it up to 5*. Now it is a 2* weapon and a lot harder to craft for UVs. While normal weapons may not be balanced by UVs, I think the validity of your argument is undermined when you compared a normal weapon to a boss weapon and don't think the fact that you can't craft 2* versions of boss weapons for UVs is a factor.

Fri, 12/16/2011 - 11:25

#17

Sir-Dimwit

Thanks again!

[Quick interjection, the JK is a joke (in my opinion) XD. I didn't face it pre-patch, but my brother and I have beaten it 10 for 10 without any CE/ME revives, including the levels leading up to it. I hardly consider it a boss anymore XD. I'm certainly not trying to belittle your argument, as you are certainly correct that the JK is a tricky boss and others may find it difficult. I personally see the bosses as minigames, which makes them even more fun! I just hate lag deaths XD]

Anywho, I really enjoyed your view on the PvP recipe thing! You have a point that I, once again, failed to look at, so thank you very much for it! (I don't PvP yet, so that area is not "important" to me yet)

And again, you have a very nice point about the ability to 'not' get tokens due to death or such. Just today I was on the elevator down to Roarmulus to get my LAST token for the shock bomb...only to run into the stupid Steam Authentication error...I was kicked from SK and I lost all that progress XD. I was bummed, for sure. At least I made a few thousand crowns!

Again, I appreciate your view! Disagreement is a great way to work forward!

Now, if you don't mind my asking Jacktehripper, what other reasons do you have for not wanting to see the Sudaruska buffed? (aside from the boss-stuff).

-------------

I'm certainly not looking to 'break' the Sudaruska or even replace the DA/GF, but rather find a niche for it through a buff to some aspect of it. I would like to see the attack speed match the DA (the 2-swing DPS would still only be 282.44). However. I would LOVE to see a buff to the charge hit! That is the niche I want! Much like how the Calibur is the gun-puppy slayer, I want the Sudaruska to be back-breaker XD. Just a ~50% buff to charge damage and an increased AOE (with trailing damage the further away from the point of impact).

A charge doing 600 and a decent AOE would be amazing.

Let's do a comparison. I will be working of neutral foes here, since the Sudaruska does normal damage. From lowest to highest (by basedamage. Many of these do much more damage from projectiles and multiple hits, but those are variables that I am eliminating from the order presented:
Dread Venom Striker (no Poison) /Wild Hunting Blade (no Beast)
154
Note: I can’t say how much since each hit has a phantom swing, so I really don’t know

*Leviathan Blade
355 (1065: Hits up to 3 times) [710]

*Fearless Rigadoon/Furious Flamberge
360 for Final Thrust + 320 for swings [680]

*Cold-Iron Vanquisher (non-undead)
360 (1080: Hits up to 3 times) [720]

*Barbarous Thorn Blade
386 + ~80 per thorn (Data is missing from the Tables [466]

*Final Flourish
~424 for Final Thrust (Data is missing from the Tables) + 386 for swings [810]

*Sudaruska/Triglav
468

*Fang of Vog
483 up to 1932 (Hits up to 4 times) [966]

*Glacius/Combuster/Voltedge/Acheron
531+117 for explosion [648]

*Divine Avenger/Gran Faust
600+131 for each Projectile Hit [731]

Now, this is only the charge hit. If but one “projectile”, “extra hit” or prior swing connect, our order is as follows (from lowest to highest):

8Dread Venom Striker (no Poison) /Wild Hunting Blade (no Beast)
Note: Again, this is because there are too many swings and “phantom swings” for me to work on. I’m just presuming it’s the lowest due to it’s low base damage.

*Barbarous Thorn Blade
466 with ONE projectile hit

*Sudaruska/Triglav
468

*Glacius/Combuster/Voltedge/Acheron
648

*Fearless Rigadoon/Furious Flamberge
680

*Leviathan Blade
710

*Cold-Iron Vanquisher (non-undead)
720

*Divine Avenger/Gran Faust
731

*Final Flourish
810

*Fang of Vog
966

So as you can see, the Sudaruska’s charge is alright when every other charge miss with all their extra attacks/projectiles/etc, but when the other charged attacks connect with there “extras”, the Sudaruska is immediately outclassed.

Of course, the nature of each attack must be considered, but the Sudaruska has one of the most awkward, slow and uncertain hit-boxes I’ve worked with, making it tricky and weak. I suggest that the damage be raised to about 600 and the Sudaruska will at least have decent damage to compensate for it’s awkward charge.

I’m tired and hungry, so that’s all for now. Thank you and take care!

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 18:15

#18

Sir-Dimwit

Some clarification, I suppose

"If you chose the stun status over the freeze status then that's your choice, but don't come on here and complain about how your swords need rebalancing because you don't like stun."

Hm. I'm sorry, but this feels like a personal attack and is a little fallacious. If you will note, stun wasn't mentioned in my original post, so I didn't "complain about how [my] swords need rebalancing because [I] don't like stun." I had mentioned, in response to your post, that I had neglected the stun status, said you have a nice point, and talked about my views on stun and thanked you at the end for reminding me about stun. I tried to show respect, and I'm very sorry if you felt insulted/hurt/etc in my post. That certainly wasn't my aim or goal.

"I think the validity of your argument is undermined when you compared a normal weapon to a boss weapon and don't think the fact that you can't craft 2* versions of boss weapons for UVs is a factor."

You're right. Unique Variants should (and likely do) hold a factor in balancing. On a whimsical, personal note, I would like to see how many UV DAs there are in comparison to UV Troika-line weapons (related percentage-wise, to account for population numbers). I get the feeling there's a higher percentage of UV Divine Avengers than there are UV Troika-line weapons (thanks to Vise/Punch). But alas, this is not something we can do. Thank you again for your view. I suppose some food for thought in regards to UVs would be: would you take a CTR VH and ASI VH Sudaruska over a no-UV Divine Avenger? I don't have any numbers for the ASI, but if it shaves off half a second, the DPS would be ~327.12. Just a question to consider :) Take care and have a pleasant day!

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:48

#19

Jacktehripper

A few things.

Firstly, I no longer PvP, I have tried each one once. Both times the lag was far too great making it unplayable (well I could play, I just kept on dying as I hit/bomb where people were, and try to run through bombs which hadn't yet appeared for me).
It might actually be good, if it wasn't so laggy.

As for the rest, my main objection was the comparison between the DA, Triglav and Sadaruska. From what you have said, it seems like they do need a buff, but not to the level that the DA is on.

Another point (which I am not sure if it had been said here), is that they both deal neutral damage, whereas the DA deals elemental (in part). Neutral weapons are all rounders, and thus should be slightly worse than special damage weapons. Even with the arsenal stations this is still valid, but should make the difference less. On a given level, you can still face a variety of enemies, meaning special type weapons can still be bad.
This is especially important for arenas, where alpha wolvers and lumbers can just pop up. DA is great on the lumbers, not so good on the wolvers. You also have the turrets, that can be either construct, jelly or undead.
Additionally, you either get the Trojan or the Lichen colony. So the only thing that hasn't come up, are the gremlins.
So would you rather a pure special damage weapon, or a normal damage weapon?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:34

#20

Sir-Dimwit

Once again Jacktehripper, thank you!

I've come to really appreciate you responses, good sir! Thank you for your time and consideration! Once I feel "ready" for PvP, I plan to take my Sudaruska (CTR High + Medium for Heat 10) and try it comboed with the Graviton Vortex/Freezing. I'm hoping this combo will really accentuate the normal-damage of the sword as well as the strong knockback.

And you are absolutely correct about the "...but not to the level that the DA is on." I certainly do not want the sword buffed to that extent. I would find it unfair to the people who paid good money/CE on the formidble Divine Avenger/Gran Faust. My only hope is that some buff would give it a special, singular place where it "shines." Personally, I think an improved AOE and damage on the charge would be nigh-perfect for its own little niche. But again, that's my own personal opinion.

I'm glad you brought up the multiple enemy-types as well! And I'm especially glad you mentioned the arsenal station also! So before I respond, I want to thank you very much for taking the time to read my posts and comment on my statements! Moving right along, you are certainly right in that most levels pop up with Wolvers+Lumbers or the "strength" + "weakness" of a sword. The "issue", if you would call it that, is that this doesn't make a "huge" difference (in my opinion). That is, if a level claims "Undead", then one can suspect it will be mostly undead with a few fiends scattered in for good measure. Thus one can still cater to the "majority" of the level, and (from personal experience) most of the accompanying enemies are of the "neutral" to the primary type at hand. But that's my experience, and to be honest, my memory and opinions may be biased to this point, so do take it as you will.

To answer your question "So would you rather a pure special damage weapon, or a normal damage weapon", I'm not sure ;) If it's a "pure" weapon, then I'd take a supplement, but the DA/GF have the normal damage to keep it solid all around. But if I had to choose a "pure" versus "normal" and no other weapons...I would pick normal. If I could pick half-normal and half-"special", I'd go with that, though ;)

Gremlins? What are those? I've gone to "gremlin levels" with only ONE mender and the rest of the level was constructs XD. If it doesn't have "Deconstruction Zone", there are no gremlins XD (aside from menders).

Take care! And again, many thanks for your time! Your views are definitely rubbing off on me and I'm beginning to see more strength in the sword than I gave it credit for, so thank you!

Have a nice Thursday (To those that it applies)!

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 13:51

#21

Nodocchi

You claim that your weapon

You claim that your weapon needs balancing and yet you choose to ignore every counter-argument when you make a new post about why your weapon supposedly needs a buff. You should know that in Lockdown single damage charge attacks are better than multiple hit ones because the hits are too fast and hit before the player invulnerability from the first hit wears off. Calibur series, flourish series, FoV, Striker series all only hit once or at most twice if you're lucky and your opponent keeps running into you and gets snagged by your last hit.

So far you have failed to make a convincing argument as to why the Sudaruska needs a buff, and only taking a restricted look at the DPS of a weapon fails to capture many of the intricacies of the weapon balance we have in this game.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 19:03

#22

Jacktehripper

Gremlins

I have seen gremlin arenas that have basically everything thrown in. In that level, a normal damage weapon is good, as it can beat everything.

If there were 2 weapons equal in all aspects except damage type, where one was normal/special and the other pure normal, I would think normal is better, as it is a good all rounder. Yes the arsenal stations do significantly reduce that, but it is still somewhat significant.
A normal weapon has no weaknesses and deals reliable damage. A normal/special still has weaknesses, and it's increased strength over a pure special weapon is countered by the weakness that it's strength is greatly reduced.
(hope that made sense).
As it goes from special to normal, the total damage should be made less and less.

Fri, 12/16/2011 - 11:16

#23

Sir-Dimwit

A Rebuttal

"...you choose to ignore every counter-argument when you make a new post about why your weapon supposedly needs a buff."
If I may, I've responded to most points mentioned by the counter-arguments. I'm not choosing to "ignore" other views, I acknowledge them and then offer my views and insights. I even "dissected" your first post, offered my own "counter-arguments" to your "counter-arguments." I will admit that there are topics that I didn't respond on, but that's primarily due to my butt getting tired and me getting bored of typing things XD. I'd rather play than type :D.

And thank you for your insight into Lockdown. I haven't done PvP yet. The only experience I have is watching my brother play and some online videos. If I find that the charge is able to turn the tides of battle, then I will have no complaints in the PvP aspect of the Sudaruska. Can someone please perform a charged hit on another player and report it's effect? I know this is a lot to ask for as battles are dynamic, but I'd love to see it frequently 1-hit non-guardians XD.

As for not being convinced about the Sudaruska needing a buff, I appreciate that. Disagreement, as long as it's constructive, can be very beneficial. But in all fairness, I don't think I've been convinced that the Sudaruska doesn't "need" (term used lightly) a buff. Sitting here now, I have some new thoughts. These thoughts are in-line with the "Counter-Argument", if anything. If I may:
---------
The Advantages/Strengths of the Sudaruska
Normal Damage.
This point has been brought up numerous times, and with excellent reason! Normal damage is, in a word, reliable. One can always know what to expect from a sword with normal damage! This is certainly one of the strengths of the Sudaruska! Predictability is an important aspect "in battle" and so the Sudaruska is a trusty and solid weapon in this regard. Against any and all foes, the Sudaruska is reliable.

The Sudaruska is reliable

In respect to DPS, the Sudaruska should not necessarily out-DPS similar swords, such as the DA/GF (I call them "similar" since they are "Heavy Swords" and behave nearly identically). It's strength is dependability and not necessarily damage.

A BIG advantage of the Sudaruska is it's a one-weapon show. Without any particular weaknesses, it's not "necessary" to carry another sword of a different damage-type. This is one of the great advantages of the Sudaruska -- it's a boon to bombers and gunners. Swordies carry the swords necessary to counter the depth/area at hand, but gunners/bombers can't always carry a depth's weakness AND backups for other types in the form of a sword. The Bombs/Guns ARE their "swords", so the Sudaruska acts as the generic "GET THE HECK AWAY FROM ME" smash stick. This, again, ties into the Sudaruska's "reliability".

In short, the Sudaruska is a marvelous piece of dependability
---------
Furthermore, the charge attack of the Sudaruska isn't "reliable" in the sense that it doesn't work well in a dynamic, moving environment. It's attack is similar to a lumber's -- easy to dodge if you see it coming XD. Thisis the thing I want changed most. The damage is "small" in comparison to other charges (I posted about the charges -- at best it does 468 damage + ~30% chance to stun)

I'm aware of the strengths of the Sudaruska. As I mentioned, it's big strength is reliability. I feel that most of the opposing arguments fall into the fact that the Sudaruska is reliable...but I don't necessarily feel reliability is "balance." An old computer may be reliable, but it may not be sufficient.

"...only taking a restricted look at the DPS of a weapon fails to capture many of the intricacies of the weapon balance we have in this game."
If we look back to my conclusion in the original post, of the areas I mentioned, the Sudaruska is outclassed in all but one (DPS versus Gremlins/Wolvers). Don't get lost in the DPS values as those were just numerical citings to my observations. The conclusion is that the Sudaruska is lacking in most numerical areas. DPS is less, Reach is the same, Attack Speed is less, Charge is (significantly) less (against DA's neutral and advantage), the knockback is the same. DPS was not the crux of the argument -- it was the part of the argument that needed numerical proof.

Thank you for your time.

Fri, 12/16/2011 - 11:07

#24

Sir-Dimwit

Interesting Update

Check this out: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/36759

It seems that damage boosts granted from armor/modules/UVs are WORSE for normal-weapons than for split weapons. The cause being that since the damage of split weapons is based on two categories, such as normal AND elemental, it "doubles" up (not literally doubling, but gets more of an ~80% boost OVER the normal-damage weapons). Thus, one of the most beneficial boons for a sword is BETTER for split weapon than it is for the normal weapon (and with modules and armor boosts, there are no "UVs" required). Granted, this is only one shade of the argument but it highlights a part of the disparaging difference between split and normal weapons.

I will edit my original post only to add this newly tested information.

Sat, 12/17/2011 - 00:58

#25

Jacktehripper

Nice comparison

Good comparison between the lumber and the charged attack. Both are massive, both deal somewhat significant damage. I think definately up the damage of the charge attack, but don't change it in any other way.

As for damage bonuses, I think that is a programming error, which shouldn't be too surprising.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 11:58

#26

Culture

Hmm

This is a long thread, didn't read all of it, but just a quick note on DA's damage. At the time that the damage was recorded (and I don't think it has changed) the DA's damage increase on first hit was lower than monster's defense increases in Strata 6 for neutral opponents. So the damage does actually decrease in Strata 6, the complete damage data table is in Google Docs.

Tue, 12/20/2011 - 01:13

#27

Fehzor

I too noticed this, and can confirm it. Suda needs a buff, blah blah blah. This is the 5th? thread I've posted my support for suda in. OOO's probably already know about it, and are probably more worried about the energy prices etc..........

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 14:55

#28

Tsubasa-No-Me

Suprise!

I have seen some say that the DA/GF MUST be better than normal swords because they're boss rewards... all I need to say to that is: Final Flourish. It has a far better charge in terms of damage than BTB. Something like ~800 to BTB's ~480. and you might say, "Well, the FF can only hit one foe with that charge." I say, NAY! try using it on a group of gremlins coming at you in a decon zone, or a pack of wolvers. Either way, FF wins in terms of damage, and on top of that, the shielding rate is FAR faster than the suda's even if they were scales to the same speed. (From what i can tell)

Meh, thats been eating at me for a while, so meh...

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The Dreaded "B" Word...Balance (With some numbers!)