"Look at the cutter line, even faster than toothpicks, but what's the issue? That's right, they don't stagger enemies"
All damage in Lockdown (excluding fire ticks if I recall correctly) will interrupt attack combos and trigger immunity frames on the affected player.
I gave up on T2 & 3 awhile ago. Forgot that little rule.
"All damage in Lockdown (excluding fire ticks if I recall correctly) will interrupt attack combos and trigger immunity frames on the affected player."
This is only half true. Yes, damage will trigger immunity frames, but there are very few (if any besides the toothpicks) that will interrupt attacks. If this were the case, the antigua lines would be seriously OP in that you can't attack anything while someone is shooting at you with one due to their fast firing speed...
Oh wait, this is what's happening with the BTB/FF...
Last time I checked, you don't stagger when hit by a one handed swinging sword, if you wear plate armour. Not flaming, just saying that it doesn't make sense to bring real life comparison into a game.
I've been interrupted many times by dvs users. It is really really annoying. Antigua lines are used to peg-stop guardians and whittle the shield down.
I think the "interrupt" and "stagger" used here are misconceptions. Say you were already swinging and someone hits you. Assuming the swing on-screen is not a product of lag, either server or computer, it should go through. Otherwise, two duelists won't ever fall at the same time. Now, if you had pressed your attack button/key, but then something hits you between then, and the actual swing, the stagger/interrupt occurs.
Not sure about rapiers but when you use a cutter and complete your swing flow against a gun puppy, it still fires. Fair if you ask me, it's fast as hell. This is not so with normal speed swords though. Normal 3 hit speed swords interrupt its attack preventing it from shooting. The same has to be for a PVP environment.
If a sword is fast and completes its strikes without making an open window to counter it as the rapiers do then those swords should not have the power to cancel out attack swings. The slowers swords (sudaruska, DA/GF, brandish, leviathan) leave the user vulnerable for a moment when swung. Rapiers, however, enjoy a safety from these lapses in defense by being so quick. Therefore they should not also stagger.
Those who doubt the current superiority of rapiers must either not care or choose not to see it. It's clear as purple crayon on the inside of your windshield my friends. Just play a round of LD and start counting. There's a reason everyone chooses that one as their sword. Because it's the only choice. The question now is will anything be done about it? Or is ThreeRings okay with one sword type dominating all the rest in PVP. If you ask me, and nobody did, LD would be alot more interesting if everyone was not using the same thing.
They'd probably be a bit harder to use without crappy autoaim (which shouldn't even be in this game at all)
My btb, in fsc, does not cancel anything unless the entire combo is dropped. 2 hits won't cancel a zombie, or a trojan. In fact, I believe even in Strat 4, the first 2 swings still won't cancel a zombie.
What do you mean, they have no weakness? If they spam the first wide swing, theyll have to cancel it. That is their downtime. Same thing for 2 hits. 3rd hit can't be canceled, and has a longer recovery time.
Those who believe that toothpicks must be changed asap so that people enjoy a pvp game more, is under the assumption that not other swords will become the new op. Something will always be better. Nothing will ever be balanced enough to be able to take a cautery sword into T2 and still deal comparable damage.
Why not complain about heavy swords having no weakness with asi maxed, or how recons can cloak and send said heavy swords into you face with no warning? Or is that along the line, with the main topic being the huge reach, swing radius, and ability to turn and smack something else with the 2nd hit?
Those are mobs. The third hit is the only one that stops an attack from a mob. But we aren't talking about mobs.
In pvp it will cancel out the attack from a player with a slower sword on the first hit. And the first hit belongs to the toothpicker of course. The sword strikes faster as well as lunges them forward allowing them to strike before the slower sword every time. Not even saying it shouldn't hit first, but it shouldn't get to interrupt swings if it gets to be that fast. It currently does and this is what is known as stunlocking.
If a certain type of sword always hits first AND it stops your opponent from attacking then there's no reason to use anything else. Which is exactly what has happened in LD. Under this change rapiers would not become bad, just you would have to actually dodge instead of having a guaranteed win by stunlock.
This second part though... I have a real beef with. Don't bother fixing this obvious oversight in pvp mechanics because new problems may just show up later? That's like me not fixing a main water line so that the sink will never spring a leak.
The main topic here is how rapiers exploit the melee pvp system. No one complains about heavy swords because they aren't an issue.
On a side note as a courtesy to you, recons cannot actually send heavy swords into your face with no warning. I WISH they could but before they are in sword range of you an exclamation mark appears over your head. This is what is known as a warning.
Toothpicks have a 3 hit combo, the 2nd being extremely short and the Ird having a longer recovery. You could miss. Even With auto target. What about the dvs line? The entire combo seriously has no gap, its got a continuous flow. Locking down someone who gets hit by it. Isn't that op? Being able to swing so many times shouldn't stagger.
It seems your problem is with the mechanics of the sword, the stagger. If you change this stagger, you still can get danced around by experienced strikes. If this does get changed, then I propose that the antigua line doesn't stagger or pause anything, including guardian shields. My point is, the main problem other people have with toothpick is the damage with how fast it is. Not the mechanics of stagger.
I don't get your analogy. A main water line making your sink spring a leak because it was fixed seems to be a faulty repair of the water line. If you nerf toothpicks enough, people will just switch to the next best weapon. Namely, the sealed swords.
A few weeks or so ago, there was a thread complaining/wondering at the unfairness of recons being able to close in without the mark appearing. Gist of it was, the sweeping line from the recon applies the mark. The mark can be avoided by not touching enemies with the mark. I believe you can also hold/release the cloak so you stay invis, but the line disappear and reappear without hitting enemies.
That's what I'm saying. The stagger/interrupt attack swing/stun should not happen with swords that are outrageously fast and hit first every time (rapiers and probably cutters now that you mention it). This prevents slower swords from contending with them.
And you're right, if rapiers and cutters didn't have the staggering ability then they would not be bad. Users would have to dodge or block which is fine. What's not fine is they can just spam attacks now and keep a slower sword from swinging back. They would be made into quick strike swords rather than prickly steamrollers as they are now.
I know people don't like the damage or how fast rapiers are, myself included, the damage is unbalanced for sure. A light sword should do light damage. They have much higher DPS capability. It's unrealistic to nerf their speed though. But I am pointing out that in the class of swords; an attack should not be fast AND strong (staggers opponent) at the same time.
You're wrong about something else though. The sealed and troika lines can reliably be fought with brandish and calibur lines and anything else of that speed ballpark. The first are slower than the others but they have a similar gap of pause before the first swing makes contact. Rapiers don't have a gap like that. They can instantly hit the moment someone lowers their shield or comes out of sprint boost. And if they swung too fast? Not a problem. Because their attacks are milliseconds apart and each swing lunges the wielder forward as I mentioned before, guaranteeing a hit.
Also my plumbing analogy is that not fixing something big just because it could cause littler problems later down the line (not having water in a house so that your sink never leaks) is no way to conduct plumbing. Which translates in Spiral Knights to not fixing overpowered sword lines today because another weapon may take the crown tomorrow is no way to maintain a game. I don't see that happening though. No other weapon comes to mind being unstoppable. There's bombers but you can always just shoot them until they move off the area they're denying.
I believe we'll have to agree to disagree. I've played many pvp styled games before, and there is always the one combination/weapon/strategy that trumps all others. I guess I've gotten used to it.
And that leads me to believe that even if you nerf/change the current meta, the new meta will still be complained about. That is why i disagree with your plumbing analogy, because the most noticeable problem will be the biggest problem. Remove the current situation, and there will always be a next one. If the devs of any game were to constantly change the meta by changing equipments, in time everything will be weak, or unusable. Then the devs will have to buff the equipment until people feel like they can kill fast enough. That's a lot of programming work, to change something every month.
Issue is that if we don't honestly attempt to change the meta, or attempt to come up with a universal agreement between the players of SK (Akin to the Pokemon League universal agreements, how they choose not to be Legend-***** when facing other players in networks). Then the meta continues and LD continues to maintain a low playerbase to the point of perpetual boredom, since eventually the few that do play will realize they're just being farmed and leeched for all their coins by others and decide to simply quit (as is the current case with T1, we rarely manage a single match because everyone wants to play T2-T3 with a toothpick as a wolver line clone. It's annoying beyond reason but that's not the issue in question here.)
I'll agree to disagree. And honestly I wish a pact would be developed, so that the programming work wouldn't be requested. But not enough people who play LD choose valor and earning their kills much from slaughtering the crap out of people with a meta.
Balancing in LD is rendered entirely pointless due to energy revives and UVs. As long as those two things exist, LD can NEVER be balanced.
The flourish/btb lines are like the Metaknight of SSBB, and they ended up banning him in pro tournaments because his moves were too frame perfect. Just sayin... :)
@skold
Issue is that if we don't honestly attempt to change the meta, or attempt to come up with a universal agreement between the players
Well, I don't think all the possible choices have been explored. Gunner/bomber loadouts and tactics, recon? Most everything I see here is really more related to striker gameplay, where visibility is given and dodging in close range is everything.
---
@blue
Guardian vog + flourish/btb = Snake
Striker skolver + flourish/btb = MK
10steaks
Those are bans in competitive matches. Not to say people don't ban them if they can, but competitive and regular matches are different. If Whitelancer decides to ban certain equipment for his 1v1 LD tourny, that's up to him. But SK doesn't have a big enough playerbase to warrant splitting up current LD more.
You could argue that we would have more people that plays competitive, with limits on equips, if such a tier was added. But the people who enjoy playing ld, meta or not, are already playing it. At most, we will have some players from regular matches migrate to competitive, and some who had originally quit LD to balance issues. The returning players will not play regular LD, and thus the pvp playerbase moves to the limited equip matches.
Currently, the people queuing up for any tier, is taking away players from other tiers. Take early mornings for any server, you won't get many games. That's because the people are all split across the tiers of their preference, whether due to gear, skill, or whatever. You could have 12 people waiting for LD games, but no one ever gets a game.
Tl;dr more options means splitting more people up. Can't raise awareness on forums, because only the forum reading players will know. Advertising in every single haven would be a good idea, but not exactly efficient, or best.
@Seiran
This is not related to gunners and bombers as they're another dimension of gameplay. The problem is that the only swords that can reliably contend head-to-head with toothpicks are other toothpicks. When you swing a sealed sword and then swing a flourish you can see that the sealed sword takes longer for its swing to make contact. In a pvp setting (LD) the flourish hits first. And when it does the sealed sword never completes its swing. And yes you could just go recon but that isn't really fixing the issue is it? Just covering it up because the slower swords still can't contend head-to-head. They'd only be hitting because the toothpicker is taken by surprise. Make both players aware of eachother and the slower sword will be unable to land a hit through the barrage of pokes.
If a weapon enjoys high speed and the first strike then its damage should be like the tick of a flame; harmful without stopping attack flow.
@Aquaduck
"This is not related to gunners and bombers as they're another dimension of gameplay."
Yep, ones that are completely and hopelessly outclassed by swordies, especially toothpick swordies :)
Actually toothpicks are a little more manageable in tier 2 since you can use brandish weapons which the dusker armor doesn't protect against. Just don't expect to survive without heart pendents.
@Fluffy
Gunners and bombers are outclassed in sword fights? You have to conclude that if you are wielding a gun or bomb that you are at a disadvantage in close range. You know, since their weapons have wide area of effect/long range. I guess that you overlooked the things that guns and bombs can do well such as major area denial and keeping yourself at a safe range while still doing damage to focus on what they cannot do well (swordfighting). What you imply feels very subjective.
@Treize
I've pretty much just been reiterating up in here. While dusker armor doesn't protect against a brandish, a toothpick can. See above, faster, cancelling slower sword attack swing, etc. I still haven't seen any solid argument in favor of how it's set up now other than "if you fix it then something else will become overpowered" (an acknowledgement that it's unbalanced). Why would they want one type of sword to beat all others in pvp?
While I disagree with ignoring guns/bombs, I'll entertain the idea that we're only talking about swords.
The other swords can have status effects. You can kinda gamble a helpful status effect if you can get the first hit on a toothpick, then take advantage of it to kill them.
(this is what I do with Storm Driver, Recon, and DA - I cloak-shoot until shock, then go in for the kill as soon as shock/deathmark come together)
But I'm sure it can be done with Voltedge or something, to an extent.
Since the toothpicks are fast swords, wouldn't it make more sense if they did less damage per swing but had 4 swings per combo?
Ok. Some fair issues have been raised on both sides. Lets judge the balance of the three (commonly used) sword lines using key comparative criteria (speed, range, damage, combo length, interruptibility) to illustrate the problem.
Toothpicks:
Speed: High
Range: High
Damage: Med (in reality this is High unless you have a full piecing defence)
Combo length: High
Attack Interrupt: Yes
Brandish:
Speed: Med
Range: Med
Damage: Med (Normal damage portion is resisted by most armor types, elemental resists are common)
Combo length: Med
Attack Interrupt: Yes
Sealed:
Speed: Low
Range: High
Damage: High (Normal damage portion is resisted by most armor types. DA/elemental resistance is fairly common, GF/shadow less so)
Combo length: Low
Attack Interrupt: Yes
If Low = 1, Med = 2, High = 3 lets see how they score
Toothpick = 11
Brandish = 8
Sealed = 8
Hmm, what is there not to like about the toothpick? The scores are not even remotely close. It has no weaknesses and requires a specialized setup (all piercing and toothpick) to counter. Add to this the innate advantage an auto-aim assisted fast, long and lunging combo sword gives in terms of interruptibility (given the pvp interupt mechanics), initiative and mobility and you have a sword which qualitatively speaking is at least 50 percent better than its nearest rivals. Cutters and Troikas? Lets not go there...
There is a blatant imbalance which makes a mockery of 'player skill' in LD and raises serious questions regarding OOO's ability to develop a competitive game.
Development inconsistencies are key issues here. Firstly the failure to apply the PVE interrupt mechanics to PVP is fundamental to the problem. This means that in PVP the faster the weapon the better it is. Secondly, the decision to have all-piecing, but not all-elemental or all-shadow damage weapons, is another major problem. All piercing weapons are simply better than split normal-other weapons as an opponent is less likely to be resistant to your damage. Given these 'odd' development inconsistencies, an imbalance is inevitable here. And unless this can be attributed to development oversight (in which case it should be rectified), one must conclude that the developers WANT toothpicks to be the best weapons.
Given that OOO obviously have no interest in changing this, my advice, get a toothpick. By design it is the best wepon. And while you are at it, skolver, polaris and hearts are going to give you a serious advantage too... Mono fit FTW! A shame when there are so many bits of kit available. Variation alongside strong scissor-paper-rock mechanics are essential to balance, enjoyment and playability of PVP. This game just doesnt have any. Oh well what did we expect from a 2D cartoon robots game?
Imbalance is inevitable. Gross imbalance is avoidable with a brain and some care. When was the last time a developer played LD out of interest?
It is also clear from a number of posters here that you haven't played LD in a while. I haven't seen most of you in the last months or so. My advice, STFU if you don't know what you are talking about. LD match determination is dominated by the distribution of skilled toothpicking strikers on the teams. Player skill levels being equal, a team of toothpick strikers will defeat any other team/fit combination. Proof? Play some LD.
The simplest solution would be to hard disable auto-target in Lockdown. Tweaking actual weapon mechanics or stats is a slippery approach which can easily lead to undesired consequences.
@ Aquaduck
Are you kidding me? You have to be, I really find it hard to believe that you're that dense. Area denial for bombs? Sure, maybe if UVs didn't exist. As it stands now, all the best players are rocking Skolver with max shock resist, making them immune to the two best area denial bombs: Shiver and VT. The other bombs are of little consequence and most swordies won't even care if they're poisoned or on fire. Stun is slightly effective, but not enough to really hold an area for too long.
"I guess that you overlooked the things that guns and bombs can do well such as major area denial and keeping yourself at a safe range"
Lol. I guess you don't realize that the Striker class mod exists, completely and effectively nullifying any long range advantage bombs and guns have? When I'm playing against players that have high investments into their LD gear (Like I mentioned earlier, Skolver with max shock resist), I can't use EITHER status bomb I bring (I bring VT -and- Shiver in an effort to hold areas better...) so I have to try to Nitro them. Did you know that a Striker can do the following:
A.) Dash in as I drop a Nitro.
B.) Slash me with BTB/FF.
C.) Dash out before Nitro detonates, and be perfectly safe.
D.) Repeat.
My 4th weapon is an AP for trying to snipe people while I hold a point, in my mist field. I play Guardian, of course. Even if I swapped one of my weapons out, I simply cannot compete with a full sword user, even if I bring my own sword.
You can't just ignore our arguments base on how often you see each of us in lockdown. Unless you play on both servers at once, and at all hours of the day. And what about the people that do play?
>Tweaking actual weapon mechanics or stats is a slippery approach which can easily lead to undesired consequences. - Smashcraft
Maybe. But can the consequences of change be any more undesirable than the status quo?
List of changes which would even things up.
General:
Remove auto aim
Toothpicks:
Split damage (normal-piercing)
Reduced hit-box width. Keep the range as after all it is a lunging piercing weapon. But barbs and foils have no sharpened edges so slashing is out of the question. The result would be a weapon that rewards accurate striking but is less effective against groups and easier for individuals to dodge.
@Demonicsothe - I haven't ignored the accurate and informed comments, just the BS.
@thosetalkingaboutbombsandguns - irrelevant stick to the OP so an important discussion point isnt lost in your mindless spam!
"But can the consequences of change be any more undesirable than the status quo?"
If toothpicks sustain any substantial nerfs, most Lockdown players will shift in favor of heavy swords. People will then switch to complaining about the various aspects of heavy swords while continuing to complain about auto-target.
Disabling auto-target in Lockdown immediately neuters most Skolver clones and prevents toothpicks from being easily abused. Skilled dancers will still terrorize people, but this is more a matter of player expertise over actual weapon aspects.
Is it possible to balance toothpicks via tweaks to the weapon itself? Possibly, yes. But why even take the risk, when a much simpler and universally more desirable approach exists?
It's definitely possible to balance Flourishes to be equally as viable as heavy swords in Lockdown. There's no "risk" involved, it's not like the game is remotely close to balanced to begin with and people will get over reasonable nerfs to their equipment. Lockdown just isn't designed to be a balanced and competitive game. It's extremely low on the developers' list of priorities.
@ Quicknine
I suppose talking about bombs and guns isn't necessarily irrelevant, but even if all the swords were more balanced with each other, they're still leagues better than bombs or guns.
I agree that toothpicks need some serious adjustments.
@Fluffy
Yeah UV's are pretty rough but not every single person has them as you say. That's absurd. Once again you are ignoring what bombs/guns can do to whine about what they can't. Only this time you added in weak insults and little pecks. Sarcasm is such a low form of wit; and it's also not a substitute for argument meat in any objective sense.
By the way, if people are scrambling to get out of your bombs radius
"Dash out before Nitro detonates"
then you are denying that area to them. Area denial.
Yes swordsmen outclass gunners and bombers in a head on fight. At least slow or dumb ones that get into a head on fight with a swordsman. If your setup is all bombs and one gun then you're trading off close-range power for strategy and specialized ability. Yet you pick guardian.
And why yes I've heard of the striker module. It is a major part of this thread after all since we are here discussing toothpicks. While we are belittling eachother here is a class mod you haven't heard of: recon. A much better choice for a bomber with one gun. Everyone knows how fast a striker closes distance. I would rather disappear and emerge behind the skolver baby with a few potshots than put up a shield that gets knocked out in seconds. Anyone with even a little battle sense could see how that's better. Especially to one of your swordless setup. If you aren't much of a strategist though, you should become a skolver clone with a FF.
Which brings us back to the core of the thread. It's not that guns and bombs can't overcome rapiers. They can, they are a different dimension of play. The problem is that other swords can't.
@ Aquaduck
Firstly, I apologize for the jabs I made at you. I guess I'm just a little bit tired of people going on and on about how guns, bombs, and swords are at near equal playing fields in LD, when I cannot stress enough that that is very far from the truth.
Now, I disagree with about all of your points.
Also, no need to put words in my mouth. I didn't say that everyone has the best UVs. I'm saying that all the serious Lockdown players have them.
Denying someone area for a fraction of a second hardly counts as area denial. In games where area denial is something that's actually viable, like Team Fortress 2, it's a lot harder to take down a well-guarded area guarded by a single player than it is in Lockdown. In fact, based on your example, if area denial is simply making an enemy not want to be within an area for more than a second or so, I would have to argue that swordsmen strikers are STILL better at area denial than bombers, because you sure as hell don't want to be close to one if you can help it.
You say gunners or bombers that end up in a head-on fight with swordsmen are dumb... I might agree with you, if it weren't for, once again, the Striker class mod, which makes any illusion of distance pretty much irrelevant. In a public game, as I am defending points, I am frequently left alone because people don't quite understand that bombers may need a little more cover than other classes. You say that my set may be too specialized... I won't argue against that. It is, and I know it. Your solution to the weapon imbalances in Lockdown is "Well, get a sword, then." I cannot accept that answer. I feel like every class of weapon should be better at doing certain things, but as it stands now, swords overpower guns and bombs by a fairly large margin. Bombs aren't as potent for area denial as they should be, and guns aren't as potent for medium range DPS and staying out of harm's way as they should be, because it's far too easy to close distance.
As for your comment on Recons, while I agree that Recons are a solid class mod, I don't feel they fill the role of area denial nearly as well. When you're sitting on a point in your status-mist, the idea is generally to keep other players from getting close to you... which instantly means everyone whips out their Polaris. I can hold points much much longer with the increased survivability of the Guardian class mod. Besides that, I really don't think a Recon can decloak and pop a bomb fast enough to really catch anyone by surprise. If status bombs were more potent, or Bombers had more options for area denial than just inflicting status, then I probably would think that Bombers have a better shot at staying competitive. Sadly, they don't, and the higher up you get, with higher up Lockdown players, it becomes that much more obvious that they can't hold up because of all their crazy good UV'd gear.
And finally, I would have to argue that as the overall skill level of a player goes up, matched with an equally skilled and geared player, guns and bombs slowly become less and less effective, until a point at which it's not even a contest.
As for sword versus sword, I honestly don't see why people are even arguing that BTB/FF aren't overpowered... I've seen it mentioned that if these weapons are nerfed, then everyone would just start using whatever the next best weapon is. Ideally, however, each weapon type should be acclimated for certain situations, so even if BTB/FF was ideal for doing one thing, it should be that another sword is better at doing another, but sadly, as it stands now, BTB/FF are ideal for virtually every situation there is.
While other swords have problems with btb/ff, other weapons in the game have even bigger problems against those weapons. Yea, they are used for other purposes, but their usage is severely limited by the weapons you have trouble with.
Not saying that it disproves your point of such swords being imba, just that the harsh attitude you take towards people bringing up such weapons is unnecessary.
@Fluffy: Personally, I just think that having a balaced/close to balanced weapon sets is almost impossible to achieve. If you reduce the range on btb/ff, then the heavy swords could reign supreme. Most people roll with vh+ asi, and with the range advantage, they can clip any other sword user before they themselves are attacked. The knockback provided by the heavy swing thus keeps the user safe long enough to recover the swing enough to shield cancel/maneouver out of the way.
That was just an example of how balance issues will always exist, and in no way portray what will happen. My personal belief is that it ill never be balanced enough for groups of player, whether you be the meta or not.
Everyone has a problem with those swords. I'm somewhat happy that some who use those swords though acknowledge this and don't equate it to it must be my awesome ninja skills.
@Fluf
It seems to me that your problem is not with your setup, but the guardian module that works against your setup. When up against a speedy opponent guardians are somewhat defenseless. I know that sounds odd with them being the tank class mod but think of it this way: every class mod does gives you defense in some way. Strikers zip out of danger quickly, recons fade out and book it (usually right behind you the next moment). But the guardian doesn't get to evade the damage, he has to take it head on. And his shield will not permit him to do so for long. Add in that you have no melee weapon and I don't see how you could possibly expect to deal with swordsmen. Toothpickers or otherwise.
I find the prospect of a rapier breaking a shield laughable. And wrong.
What I know is that gunners and bombers CAN do well. But not head on with swordsmen. Take the user Tennis for example. A black hatted terror. You may have ran into him before and eaten a few rounds from his umbra driver. But he's usually a striker. If he was a guardian that just wouldn't make sense. He would be discarding the advantage of his range. I've been a guardian before and tried to hit him. He just backs up and pelts me with another umbra round. And those aren't gentle pecks either they are solid damage.
But I am getting off topic. This is about toothpicks.
Throughout my experiences in this game, both PvE and PvP. They are good for taking out wolvers and fiends (although I'd rather use Magnus or a Hail Driver on the latter). My problem is them is when fighting those who use it in LD. Especially when fighting someone who plays Striker and happens to have a High to Very High ASI UV, that clearly makes match ups one-sided and I've been through those. I hardly fought anybody when I ended up on the winning side of the match up. When I ended up on the losing side, however, I really got skewered by those toothpick users with that ridiculous UV. So a High to VH ASI UV is pretty much a big advantage on a toothpick as far as I've seen. That is a big problem that can one-side match ups like that., and the only way I really managed to fight those toothpickers is sniping them with an Alchemer (preferably Storm or Hail Driver) through advantage of range.
In my opinion, I'd say a way to fix this is to change the toothpicks' attack pattern to sole thrusting (remove the first part of its combo; reducing its combo into 2 hits) so that way it takes more practice to use in LD and committing to the last attack makes recovery more difficult. I doubt it will affect PvE gameplay because the first hit always knocks back and makes the second attack miss or not reach, in fact I think it may make them more useful as a thrusting weapon than a slashing weapon. Imagine starting your attack on a devilite by lunging at them first and interrupting their actions. Second strike, that lunges the player farther can be used as means to dodge or further advance and attack at the same time. Its basically removing the first attack of the toothpick combo and leaving it with the other two it already has.
Would you care to explain why you necro'd this?
@Dukeplatypus: Because I found a thread that already touched on this topic; so I don't post a thread about toothpicks when this one is already here.
If you are a Vog no need to play LD just play Vana....
RSS spam is an effective tactic. Not only does it hit through a pure Skolver, but most Skolvers are swordies that know nothing about the Radiant Sun Shards. And with the recent 15% boost... I'm a bomber, and let's just say life is good.
@Demonics, you've just proven the point of this post in the first place. The only way to beat a toothpicker, is with another toothpick. That's not how it should be.
Look at the cutter line, even faster than toothpicks, but what's the issue? That's right, they don't stagger enemies... Why should toothpicks be any different? Last I checked when I was fencing, if I got pointed by the rapier yeah it hurt a bit, but that sure as heck did NOT stop me from jabbing my sword into my opponent.
It's simple, cut the attack cancel on toothpicks. If cutters can't, then toothpicks shouldn't either.