Spiral Knights - Debuff Wolver Line?

Debuff Wolver Line?

54 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 22:21

Njthug

Well I noticed comparing all the other lines in the game the wolver line is most used by players due to it being over-powered compared to the other armor sets in this game.

After reading Nick saying he will add some armor changes, I wanted to "suggest" an idea:

To make all the armors a bit fair I felt the wolver line would need to be debuffed or nerfed (what ever you wish to call it):

So my opinion:

1. We can't change the bonuses the wolver line ultimately gives players since that will start a huge up-roar in this game.
2. We can not really make the other gear similar to the wolver line due to the need of the other gear (The other gears are useful if you are a talented player or just in certain occasions).

So what should we do, to well put balance to this game, and also make this game a bit hard (Now, if you noticed most players who complain about the easiness in this game are the same players who are using max uv's and the most cookie-cutter armor sets etc, so in my overall opinion if you want a harder game it makes logical sense to use gear which isn't oped, but for some reason players choose not to).

Vog Line:

-2 Freeze bars
-2 Poison bars

Skolver:

-2 Fire bars
-2 Stun bars

Snarby:

-2 Fire bars
-2 Stun bars

My reasoning:

Vog is a fire based armor so it should be negative towards Freeze, and figure throwing the poison in there would make it pretty cool as well.

Skolver is ice base, so should be negative to Fire, and due to the sword damage bonus why not have a stun negative resistance to not protect the armor from lumbers and other stun related monsters.

Snarby -- Was the hardest to decide on only since its neutral to fire, and +poison and freeze. I decided on negative fire (kinda like the dread line) along with negative stun to keep it up-to-par with the Skolver line.

*I know you can always argue with me that fire melts ice, and ice can freeze fire, but keep in mind your ice weapons can't freeze the patches of fire in this game, and your pepperbox etc. can't 1 hit an ice item or melt them into pure water my idea in thinking is fire is negative towards freeze and freeze is negative to fire in general*

Well post your opinions I guess this is only an idea, so please try not to flame much its an opinion.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 23:22

Fradow

I believe this belong to

I believe this belong to Suggestion forum, not Arsenal.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 23:51

Culture

Hmm

Why wolver is so much better than everything else in the game is odd to me. I think that wolver should be the par for armor. That way one can choose which armor is best suited for the situation rather than just going wolver all the time.

Case in point - today I was just about to start a Shock strata T3 Danger Room, which incidentally was the zombie/kat/trojan one so lots of shadow damage. A friend joined me and commented that he wished he donned some shadow defense first. Then I thought... would I have changed anything if I knew this DR was here? Nope. Full vog is better than any shadow and shock armor I could have worn due to that precious ASI for my DA. I would, however, have switched the shield from Grey Feather to CoA if I had somehow known. Not to mention that I would have taken a Blitz instead of a Hail Driver... But that's point.

So yeah, the Wolver line's 5* should have been Low bonuses from day one. I guess OOO wanted there to be some progression from 4 -> 5* though. That would have been much more balanced. Waaaaay too late now to change that. Instead I'd just want to see everything else in the game as appealing as Wolver.

Your idea of resistance penalties for bonuses makes sense to me, it would provide some balance. Still I'd prefer to see everything made better. :)

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 23:48

Gwenyvier

I'll go along with this. A bonus should have some kind of drawback.

~Gwen

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 00:41

Aemicus

To make it more circular, I

To make it more circular, I would just have the snarby line be weak to fire, vog weak to ice, and skolver weak to poison. However, I disagree with this idea, as it would piss off the majority of the playerbase. Instead of nerfing wolver, OOO should just buff gunner and bomber armors.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 02:15

Nicoya-Kitty

Why must every shadow armor

Why must every shadow armor be highly flammable?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 06:30

Lukehandkooler

They need to balance the gear

They need to balance the gear around the game and quit tweaking game mechanics for certain playstyles.

~Luke

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 07:04

Paweu

@Nicoya-Kitty

Fallen sez oterwize

Also, no nerf can compensate for the suckiness of gunner/bomber gears, thats a poor way of solving stuff.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 07:20

Otaia

@Paweu

Well, armors like Dread Skelly and Grey Feather Mantle also go mostly unused simply because Snarbolax and Vog Cub are overall a lot better.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 07:26

Icsonic

Bombers aren't as limited as gunners

I wear bomber gear and I see gunners and gunners have it worse than bombers do.
2 out of 4 of our armors have the precious CTR that we need to live and one of those has fire resist to help keep us alive.
Gunners have curse resist and that's it.

Admittedly gunners have defense against each of the damage types in their armor like the swordsmen do where all the bomber suits are elemental defense but still status resist is where it counts the deeper you go.

Some would say just get the none weapon based armors with the better defenses and makeup the bonuses with trinkets but not everyone can afford that and it's more of an end game solution.

People react poorly to nerfing 9 times out of 10 no matter if it affects them or not.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 08:00

#10

Nordlead

I'd be so pissed if they did

I'd be so pissed if they did something like your suggestion. Mostly because I'm building a snarby coat with UV Fire High. I'd be so mad because I wasted so much Cr/CE on it and I need something that has better protection for FSC (not that I need it, but I want it).

Besides, after we nerf this armor, we'd need to nerf whatever the new best armor is. Why cry because an armor is great. You should be happy there are good armors. No one is forcing you to use it, and it doesn't hurt you just because you don't use it (but then again you are a LD junky which this suggestion doesn't help fix at all).

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 09:34

#11

Culture

Hmm

Don't worry Nordlead, this won't happen. It just puts into perspective what would be necessary to balance the bonuses on these armors so they are in-line with the rest of the armors.

------------

It is more cost effective to wear wolver rather than have to purchase UVs or Trinkets for bonuses. Actually, it isn't even possible without Wolver for a swordie to reach optimal bonuses unless they have cost-prohibitive UVs.

For example, with a Brandish-line sword you want to ideally reach CTR Max and Damage Max vs All. That'll be a level 10 Brandish, two 5* CTR trinkets then full Skolver/Snarby with Barb Thorn Shield. Easy enough. But impossible without wolver.

Or with a DA, and sometimes GF, you'll ideally want ASI Max and CTR Max. Full Vog, Swiftstrike and two 5* CTR Trinkets and you're set. Again, completely impossible without Wolver.

Gunners/Bombers have no such luxury. Swordies have no alternative.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 10:52

#12

Guyinshinyarmour

So many of the shadow armours are weak to fire. Do we really need to drag down Snarby too? I'd prefer it be left alone since ya gotta do a SL to get to it. It actually has a reason for being good.

I like the rest though.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 11:19

#13

Fluffyfoxxie

Maybe they should make it so

Maybe they should make it so the armors without weapon bonuses can have small weapon bonuses too, maybe not AS good as wolver/gunner/bomber sets, but enough to make it not feel like you're sacrificing ALL of your bonuses in exchange for slightly higher defenses.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 11:40

#14

Mohandar

Only 3 gunner-specific armor sets

I would like to point out that Deadshot is NOT gunner gear- the undead bonus is general, and not specific to guns at all. So gunners only have 3 sets: 2 ASI sets geared toward elemental or piercing, and 1 damage set geared toward piercing with HALF the bonus of 5* sword gear, and 2 (arguably trivial) negative resistances. There are too many much needed changes to explain on one line, so I'll list suggestions:
-Extend down to 2*
-Add status resistances to some lines- leave curse on Deadshot, fire on Nameless, freeze on Justifier.
-Make Shadowsun the Mad Gunner equivalent: same status penalties, ASI and DMG low/low
-Change Deadshot to DMG med/low, and ASI bonuses to med/low
-Add a shield line that caters to gunners.
-Add NEW ART, even just simple changes to distinguish the hats.

Bombers have it nearly as bad: there are 4 sets total, but two of them (Bombastic and Mercurial Demo) both offer half the bonus of 5* sword gear, with the latter being hard to obtain and only marginally better. There is one set with heavy penalties to important resistances that at least offers equivalent power, and a last set that can actually offers good defensive stats as well as nearly comparable bonuses. All are geared toward elemental defense. Some improvements I'd suggest: Bombastic upped to DMG med/low (high total) and changed to piercing defense with freeze resist; Mad Bomber changed to shadow defense (might be in line with the crazy madman thing, but if only to give bombers more defensive options). A bomb-specific shield line would be nice too.

If sword-specific gear were brought in line with Gunner and Bomber gear, you'd expect something like this: Vog only offering ASI med/low (high total); Skolver offering DMG med/low (high total); Snarby offering only DMG low/low (medium total). The 4* line would also be split into Ash Tail granting fire resist and ASI low/low (med total) and Frostifur Coat/Cap, which retains the freeze resist and DMG low/low (and splits to Snarby or Skolver). I've got all these pieces and I would support said changes- in addition to changes bringing gunner/bomber gear UP to similar standards.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:26

#15

Jontlemen

Status resists and overall

Status resists and overall defense should be lowered for the Wolver lines. You shouldn't be able to have good offense and decent defense in the same armor.

Watching Skolvers with high resistance to Shock UVs stroll through 2 out of the 3 useful mist bombs makes me sick in LD.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:36

#16

Fluffyfoxxie

Agreed with Jontlemen. It's

Agreed with Jontlemen. It's infuriating to be so hopelessly outclassed in LD by that kind of stuff.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 23:45

#17

Sincarnation

Enough Nerfs

How about justt buffing Bomber and Gunner armors. Bombers have it bad but with mad demo and 1 trinket they can have MAX damage and CTR, but Gunners have it much MUCH worse.
Make Shadowsun defend against shadow and give medium damage buff while only being weak to fire and resisting freeze
Make Nameless resist Stun and Shock
Make Justifier resist Fire and Poison

I think these changes would be neat

also am I the only person who wants to see CTR as a bonus on non-bomb armors?

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 08:09

#18

Jontlemen

@Sincarnation Quite honestly

@Sincarnation

Quite honestly I would prefer nerfs to the wolver line before seeing buffs to the gunner and bomber lines, aside from making Gun ASI actually do something, and changes to the weapon effects of the Shadowsun (Damage increase med) and Deadshot lines. Armor sets that don't give weapon boosts see little use as is.

Honestly, armors that give you a boost offensively will always be more popular simply due to the nature of the game, but we should at least try to balance them.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 13:08

#19

Obsidious

@Jontlemen

THIS! This is my main beef with the Wolver line, and specialization armors in generally, at least to an extent. Every time I hear of the wolver line, I constantly find myself think Azure Guardian in comparison with it. The only difference between the Guardian, and Skolver line in this case, is that the normal damage resistance is higher for Azure than Skolver...by like a small bar. And in terms of gameplay usesage, the effect the stats have both might as well be negligable. It sad, really, because Azure sounds like an armor that has a very strong armor resistance to both normal and piercing, where else the wolver line doesn't look like it as much. Yes, Azure is the easier armor to get, but it still should have a place amongst someone 5* arsenal. It probably should be more or less like a very strong, overall armor, at least vs normal and piercing, and should be able to survive significantly more hits from its respective damages than skolver.

To me, the Wolver line needs to be made a tad more fragile, but not too fragile that they end up dying in two or three hits from their respective damages. I honestlhy don't think the status resists need change, just the overall damage resistance. Especially considering the skill some expert swordsman weild, and they're designed to be more offensive than defensive.

Moving away from that, I do have some thoughts on the bomber line; I generally place the bomb armors under roles. For Volcanic, this would be mainly the relatively robust support bomber, mainly use mist bombs, though still be flexible for damage bomb usage. Mad Bomber (Which I will never touch) I see as a very flexible, very powerful DPS monster, but also very fragile. For the Bombastic and Mercurial, they SHOULD probably fill in the gap of simply using 2 or 3 well-placed damage bombs (Nitro, DBB, etc) to help wipe out crowds, specificly while in parties.

That's what the last two should do, with the latter providing speed in sacrifice for power; and I really do like the idea for because it means I can probably travel with Nitro in a party and use it only a few times without disrupting my party.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 15:53

#20

The-Rawrcake

I think it would make sense

I think it would make sense to give CTR to everything, maybe low per piece for the azure buff. This is because most new players are "tricked" into getting it, along with a Calibur and Valiance (though the weapons are not connected to needing a buff) or maybe Nitronome. Because a new player is probably also getting a Calibur / Nitronome, CTR would make sense.

That way, azure guardian stays unique.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 20:01

#21

Retrofit

Meh

This wouldn't dissuade most sword oriented players from using Wolver lines - it would just make doing so slightly less convenient in select scenarios.

Other armors need comparable bonuses.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 23:45

#22

Nova-Royal

it will improve the balance in the game.

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 00:12

#23

Jontlemen

@Smashcraft "Other armors

@Smashcraft

"Other armors need comparable bonuses."
Admittedly, this is probably would be the only thing that would really bring more usage to the other armors.
Thing is, Spiral Knights is already a pretty easy game, and I would be hesitant to start buffing perfectly fine armor.

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 00:36

#24

Metagenic

Hmm

Buff gunner and bomber armor instead.

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 09:21

#25

Retrofit

Stuff

"perfectly fine armor"

Remove "perfectly fine" and replace with "overly specialized".

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 11:11

#26

Diamondshreddie

I think

yes, i agree, i think the wolver line needs more weakneses to status or just less defence, ad the other weapon specialized lines need their pen shields, and comparable buffs

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 15:48

#27

King-Tinkinzar

YES PLEASE! Nerf those highschool girls!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 00:49

#28

Zephyrgon

Best option?

Simple: make the wolver line all asi with swords. All other armor sets (bomber, gunslinger) have a knack with decreasing the time interval of waiting to use weapons or delay. This is the BEST way to balance since once this is enacted, people will stop *****ing about imbalance for the most part.

Thu, 03/15/2012 - 22:00

#29

Moonsoon

+!!!

Njthug for dev

Thu, 03/15/2012 - 22:25

#30

Iron-Volvametal

...

I believe Both, Vog & Skolver, should get -2 Poison. Weaken their Attacks/Defences for a Strong, but Risky, Buff. Snarbolax seems fine, though.

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 18:28

#31

Dukeplatypus

Hmm, Stun weakness for Vog

Hmm, Stun weakness for Vog and Poison for Skolver. Those statuses lower the native boost in the armour.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 15:17

#32

Mysticbeam

...

I use both the vog and skolver coats with magic lines, and I think this is actually a good idea.

-2bars for freeze on vog, -2 bars of fire on skolver, and -2 bars of stun on snarby, for EACH PIECE.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 17:01

#33

Chamberjr

It's popular

I'd say the three most popular lines for armour are:
1. Cobalt
2. Wolver
3. Gunslinger

Personally, I think Cobalt already sucks, so I wouldn't nerf that.

Wolver is litterally the only sword bonus line, and that's why I think it's so popular. But the reason I chose wolver was because it DIDN'T have a nerf, it had a sword bonus, and vog cub would help me with vanaduke.

Gunslinger is basically the same as wolver, but for guns. But that's not the topic here.

First, I want to talk about the ash tail cap and coat. If you read the discription, it says "A warm hat made from hide tanned with blaze pepper. It smells faintly of curry." which means, it should probably have a bit of fire resistance. A fair thing to counter that bonus would be to nerf the freeze a bit.

Now, Vog Cub. I use vog cub cap, and I am trying to get vog cub coat. I dont think anything on it should be nerfed, but to be fair, the nerf should be -2 bars poison.

Skolver and Snarbolax. I don't really have any opinion for these, but I think -2 bars fire for Skolver and no resistance for poison for Snarbolax.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 22:07

#34

The-Rawrcake

+1 to the idea, nerf wolvers

+1 to the idea, nerf wolvers >:) gunners will take over some time in the future. You know it. Just wait until we get out 2 star gunslinger armors + piercing guns.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 22:15

#35

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

As a swordy, I hate to say this, but we are OP. But instead, make it:

Vog: -2 Bars of Freeze res, total of -4 with set.
Skolver: -2 bars of Fire res, total of -4 with set.
Snarby: -2 bars of Stun res (It gets stunned with the bell...), -4 with set.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 22:27

#36

Groovo

+ other suggestions

I think they should especially buff some gunner and bomber sets + I think the Chaos set which is completely useless (except as a costume, it looks pretty

cool) should be buffed. I have a suggestion to make about it : If it was possible to make it exactly like Grey Feather set but with shadow resistance instead

of the grey feather's set elemental resistance, and maybe remove the max negative stun resistance of grey feather or buff it a little would be nice as well.

Otherwise, if ye buff all other sets, ye don't necessarily have to nerf wolver line, ye could just simply buff some other monsters or ye could indeed add a

small negative status resistance...

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 14:22

#37

Dukeplatypus

@above

You really need to read the admin-made topics
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/47402

Sun, 03/18/2012 - 06:42

#38

Uuni

All wolver sets should get

All wolver sets should get weak to shock & stun IMO
They would be the status effect that most affects your ability to swing a sword

Sun, 03/18/2012 - 11:17

#39

Gzilla

I agree but on the same note maybe we should buff other armor sets?

Sun, 03/18/2012 - 11:30

#40

Iron-Blast

@Duke

I see nothing about the wolver set in there.

Vog Line:

-2 Freeze bars
-2 Poison bars

Skolver:

-2 Fire bars

Snarby:

-2 Stun bars

Skolver with fire makes sense, but I dont see it on snarby. Otherwise +1. And Im not quite sure about the Vog poison weakness but I suppose it can stay as well.

Sun, 03/18/2012 - 12:37

#41

Halandin

Though, aren't all wolver

Though, aren't all wolver line armors weak in that until 5*, they all resist piercing, since piercing is, I believe, both less common than shadow/elemental, and is easier to avoid attacks by enemies that use it?

Sun, 03/18/2012 - 21:46

#42

Athresh

In my opinion,snarby nerf might be a bit harsh but others are fine.

Sun, 03/18/2012 - 22:11

#43

Lan-The-Wizard

I still don't get how the

I still don't get how the armor made from monsters who are weak to pierce....have piercing defense.
(same for chroma armor...just my 2 cents)

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 04:54

#44

Halandin

@Lian: ...mind blown, why did

@Lian: ...mind blown, why did I never notice that? Wolvers are resistant to elemental....

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 14:08

#45

The-Rawrcake

Nerf the wolvers.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 14:14

#46

Sincarnation

How about no?

The only wolver change I would like to see is Skolver being changed to CTR reduction. If you want damage bonus you have to get snarb, and you dont get damage bonus + piercing resist. To be honest my opinion is biased towards PvP but whatevs.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 14:47

#47

Selenium

This topic is win.

What about, instead of status, the Wolver lines are weak to knockback? Imagine all the toothpick users from LD flying all over the place from Guardians with Trokia-line swords.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 15:49

#48

Sillty

I asked for a Wolver line

I asked for a Wolver line debuff over half a year ago, and still nothing. At this point, I'd be surprised if they suddenly did it.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 04:22

#49

Thrillhaus

@OP

Did you think this through before posting? Why would a piece of armour that's on FIRE be weak to freeze?

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 12:08

#50

Tsubasa-No-Me

OMFG YES!

pl0x have wolver KB weak? pl0x?

I'd totally send them away from ALL cap points.... SUUUUDAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~Tsu

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Debuff Wolver Line?