Spiral Knights - Fiends need a nerf. Badly.

Fiends need a nerf. Badly.

68 replies [Last post]

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:24

Ulmyr

I am a decently advanced Tier 3 player with a mix of 4* and 5* gear. Whenever I go into a Tier 3 Wolver Den post-patch, I can easily clear the area without having too many issues with even the Alpha Wolvers. I can usually handle Candlestick Keep areas if I stay clear of the Grimalkins and don't get munched on too much. I can usually handle Tier 3 Deconstruction Zones with wise use of my Shadow Driver. Even Shock and Fire areas do not pose too much of a challenge to me, though I've not yet attempted a FSC run and have been putting it off for a long time. All of this solo.

Fiends, however, I cannot handle whatsoever, with the sole exception of Trojans.

I have a Fallen set that I use for Shadow resistance, and try to make good use of a Mega Magnus for killing Devilites and Greavers. It barely helps because I cannot shield their attacks - Devilites are unpredictable and their projectiles move faster than lag lets me respond, meaning as soon as they've thrown the projectile I get hit. Greavers would be tolerable but they seem to stagger their attacks better in groups now and I cannot respond in time with my Flourish-line weapon to hit on all sides of me, especially when they sneak up behind me.

I recently went into a random Clockworks level today and was put in a Tier 3 Shock area. I went into a miniboss room and easily cleared out the Kats beforehand, and then was assaulted by a mob of about 5 Greavers, a Lumber, and a Mender. The Greavers managed to hit me and then I was shock-locked, and had to burn through most of my Mist and two health potions to revive twice before giving up after being killed by stray floppy discs later on.

Not only do I feel that Devilites and Greavers are frustrating and not fun to fight against (my main argument here and the one I feel is the best reason to nerf them), I also feel that they outclass nearly every mob in the game, far and away eclipsing Mecha Knights, Kats, Alpha Wolvers, Trojans, Giant Lichen Colonies, Retrodes, Gremlins, Polyps, and every other tough mob you could name for the title of hardest in the game.

All of the other mobs, while powerful, are fun to fight against (maybe not Mecha Knights due to their broken hiboxes, however), but Devilites and Greavers take control away from the hands of the player and lead to a detrimental experience for all, mostly because their attacks are too fast to react against, too damaging for their speed, and too hard to effectively counter.

I'm not alone here, and I know this is a fairly common suggestion so that what I'm saying is nothing groundbreaking - whenever I go into a party and we are approaching a Devilish Drudgery area, there's an immediate cacophony of complaints and even the forums erupt in anger whenever the pre-Vanaduke stratum turns into a Fiend area, albeit filled with bitter counter-arguments. I'm not alone with my friends on this one - even though Devilites are not as powerful as Alphas or Retrodes or Giant Lichen Colonies, they're by far the hardest mobs to dodge and whenever a party I'm in goes into a Devilish Drudgery area, we're almost guaranteed to wipe once.

(Amusingly, Fiends were apparently designed to be fairly weak: the sign in the Devilish Drudgery area says that Devilites are weak on their own, but become powerful when accompanied by a Pit Boss. Unfortunately, it's a matter of degree.)

tl;dr: Fiends barring Trojans are more powerful than almost any other mob in the game, they're incredibly unfun to fight against due to their ridiculous speeds and the lag ingame, and need nerfing so that they are on line with every other monster family there is. Player skill isn't a good argument when these obstructive bureaucrats can destroy anyone but the 'top' playerbase, and even they have issues.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:26

Softhead

No.

Challenge. if the game was completly nerfed, people, including you, would be ranting for the game to be harder.

-1

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:32

Ulmyr

Rebuttal

Once again, please read my argument before responding.

"All of the other mobs, while powerful, are fun to fight against (maybe not Mecha Knights due to their broken hiboxes, however), but Devilites and Greavers take control away from the hands of the player and lead to a detrimental experience for all, mostly because their attacks are too fast to react against, too damaging for their speed, and too hard to effectively counter."

There's a difference between a fun form of challenge where you legitimately are trying your best to survive, and being at the mercy of lag to let you go through an area. Nevermind that Fiends right now are far and away more threatening than even the toughest mobs of other monster families.

There's a difference between challengingly fun and unfair. Fiends take control away from the player and are unfun to fight against. Which was my main argument to begin with.

They're not fun and I don't think that even the players who can reliably solo Fiend areas think they're fun.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:46

Juances

Even my BTS breaks easily against a small group of wolvers if I try to shield.
But I can laugh at devilites with a 4* skelly shield.

They are weak enough.

The only unfair thing is greavers mist.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:54

Psychodestroyer

....

Meh, use a high-speed weapon. Most attacks interrupt them, so get an Antigua and spam it in their faces. It'll keep them back, for a while.

I have trouble dealing with them too. My DTS can't get close enough through all the flying furniture, and my BTS breaks easily.

I seriously need some shadow defense -_(\

I just call in experienced backup. I have no-idea how they can deal with them so efficiently, but they do. I need to find out how...

No seriously. Did one yesterday, he barely took damage. LITERALLY. Like, 3 hits is all I saw him take.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:59

Nicoya-Kitty

Devilites and Greavers have

Devilites and Greavers have nearly zero hp. If you go after them aggressively they die very, very quickly.

Your Fallen set's fiend penalty is holding you back. Get yourself a Valk, Skelly, Deadshot or Snarby set and they'll be a walk in the park.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 17:19

Ulmyr

I realize that they're

I realize that they're fragile, but their defense isn't what I'm worried about, it's their offense.

While they may be glass cannons, they're glass cannons that are extremely hard to dodge, especially with the slower-than-usual Internet speeds afforded by a sluggish DSL connection. I don't advocate the nerf-them-into-the-ground approach, but for the Devilites even a slightly longer attack windup and a projectile speed less resembling high-tier Alchemers and more resembling a Proto Gun would do wonders for me. For the Greavers I'd be fine with being able to block their mist and reducing their currently misleading bite hitbox size.

It's mostly the difficulty of avoiding getting smacked by their attacks and the amount that lag interferes that frustrates me, and not their actual defenses or dodging. A separate Shadow set would probably end up making them die faster but I'd still be taking a large amount of damage relative to any other mobs in encounters, meaning that the issues I see still exist.

EDIT: Though yes, Fallen isn't the best Shadow set to take care of them and I really should end up looking into another, so I probably will do that when I have the chance.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 18:40

Hexzyle

@Op

WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS
Just because everything else gets nerfed doesn't mean we have to nerf fiends too. We're trying to UNDO the nerfs on the other enemies, not further the nerf's destruction.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 18:57

Ulmyr

I never said that I agreed with the other nerfs and actively tried to avoid saying that, nor did I say that they were needed, nor did anything in my list defend them. In many cases (most notable being the zombie nerf and their swiping attack becoming harmless ) I was perplexed that they were even needed.

However, that's not even relevant to the argument that I've put out, which is that Fiends in their current state are not fun to fight against due to lag-related concerns, and despite the fact that they are intended to be less threatening than, say, Mecha Knights based on the flavor text at the beginning of Devilish Drudgery, they're far and away one of the most dangerous mobs in the game.

Please read my argument, because once again, I don't want to nerf everything in the game, only things that detract from the enjoyment of the game as a whole. At the current phase in the game there are only three mobs that I think need nerfing and those are Fiends (which I believe need it most) and Mecha Knights (which are simply annoying and which is more of a personal concern). And in fact, many mobs I believe need buffing (the new Gremlin mobs introduced, the current edition of Wolvers and Alpha Wolvers, Retrodes, Lichen Colonies, Zombies, and Chromalisks in particular).

As much fun as it is to accuse others of logical fallacies, ever since I began playing I've thought of Fiends as a mite unfair and have wanted them to be nerfed before any of the current nerfs has come around. That hasn't changed, and it has not affected my viewpoint of Fiends as a whole. My viewpoints are well-stated by now so I won't go over any arguments that I've already covered, and while I did say that Fiends need to be balanced to match other strata, this has been an issue since the day I've started playing and the unrelated nerfs have only made them stand out more.

Also, what does an argument about things to avoid when creating articles on Wikipedia have to do with game balance theory? I'm curious now.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 19:25

Severage

@Ulmyr:

If you're using a Fallen Set, you shouldn't ask for nerfs.

That's like using a Swift Flourish on the Jelly King and saying he's too hard for you.

~Sev

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 19:55

#10

Ulmyr

I've already covered this fact.

The main issue with fiends is the incredible difficulty of dodging their attacks compared to every single other mob in the game, based on a combination of their own attack speed and lag times. Their projectiles move so fast and execute so suddenly that oftentimes a player with lower Internet connection speeds cannot actually see their attacks and respond in kind until they have already happened.

Having a Fallen set or not does not change this issue, and therefore my experiences with a Fallen set do not end up changing my argument. As I have said previously, doing more damage against Fiends doesn't change the fact that their attacks execute too suddenly and too quickly. Plus, with a Seraphic set I experienced much of the same issues, except the Fiends just died quicker and therefore I took less damage overall.

I wear a Fallen set, yes. That much is true. It shouldn't disclude me from being able to say that Devilites and Greavers are broken in many significant ways, especially when said ways are not in fact relevant to me wearing the Fallen set.

Or rather, they shouldn't be except for the current state of Fiends (unable to avoid damage necessitating that fights end quickly), which is what's causing this to begin with and won't go away even if I change it, it'll just put a band-aid on the issue for myself.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 21:28

#11

Az-Rel

just hit them (greavers)

just hit them (greavers) before they attack if u manage to do that they are pretty much dead.(tested on t3 with a avenger with asi high)...

on devilites if u are moving (sideways) they usually fail their attacts so zigzag until u are near,and since they come in groups dont stop moving.works for me in T2 no idea if its not as efectuve on t3.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 21:33

#12

Demonicsothe

Try circling. They throw

Try circling. They throw things in a straight line. If you sort of spiral towards them, they aren't likely to hit you. If you run straight... yea. You deserve that chair to your face. Also, avoid full combos. Spam the first wide swing of flourish/barb, then shield immediately after. Invest in some dodging skills. It would help you plenty once you start fsc. After all, zombie leap seems to be as problematic to people as devilite attacks.

You say they are unfun due to mechanic and your own lag. Your lag is not OOO's problem to solve through monster nerfs. After all, I could go play this game in Antarctica and ask for nerfs because I have a delay of 5 seconds.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 21:52

#13

Gwenyvier

Your gear is probably your

Your gear is probably your biggest issue actually.

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Crown_of_the_fallen

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Armor_of_the_Fallen

Fallen set gives Shadow resist yes, but at a cost. It gives Very High damage PENALTY vs Fiends. A rank in damage bonus (or penalty) is approximately 6.5%, meaning at Very High you're doing -26% to them. In other words if you'd do 100 damage, you will instead do around 74. Add in that its T3, and it takes at least 3 Callahan shots to kill a Devilite with Max gun damage BONUS (not penalty, we're talking a 65 damage difference per 100 done approximately) and you just raised the shots needed to probably 6 per Devilite. That's solo, if you're in a group raise that number a lot.

Just for reference Mega Magnus does 133 with the normal shot in D19, with Fallen you would do about 98.

Greavers are easy if you don't panic. Back up so they can't surround you and do the first swing of your Flourish. ANY hit interrupts their attack (although they will finish the animation). Use the first hit a few times, shield cancelling between and they go down with no hassle.

If you have issues with Fiends then you need gear that is better for dealing with them. Magnus line is great, if you do a single shot and move so you don't get hit. The reload animation will get you smacked. Flourish type swords work fantastic also. Again, don't do the last hit as it leaves you wide open. Shield canceling will help you with both weapon types. Fallen set sucks for Fiends for blatantly obvious reasons... Skelly, Snarby, Deadshot, or Valkyrie will work much better for you. If they break your shield a lot then you might want a Shadow based shield... your options are pretty much limited to Skelly and Crest.

Keeping moving will keep you alive also. Charging straight at them is asking to get hit. Move strategically, and not in a straight line towards them unless you plan to just tank the damage or they're only a couple steps away.

~Gwen

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 21:55

#14

Addisond

Yeah, they are, in all reality, a bit hard.

Fiends in general are a bit harder than other monsters. This is totally true, especially when soloing. Greavers are a pain in the ass (only when charging in from multiple directions), and devilites are very hard to get rid of for those not carrying flourishes. A flourish, however, makes both monster types significantly easier. Anyway, to those skilled enough, they go down fast and clean, but some scenarios can leave t3 newbs cowering behind cover and praying that the stupid devilites don't get promoted before they can dash out and rev their fallen teammates. I used to have trouble with devilites, like you, but after enough experience with them they aren't hard enough to deserve a nerf.

If you have trouble dodging their attacks, you just suck. Seriously, there are almost no attacks in the game that hit you if you just keep running (heavy gunfire combined with poor movement skills is a counter-example. So are greavers.). You can avoid damage... in most cases. If you think your plan through poorly and wind up with three greavers charging you while deviltes rain trash, you are gonna take a hit from the devilites, but hey, it's your own fault for getting into that situation.

Also, newbs like yourself should NOT be using a callahan vs. devils. Use of a callahan requires a great deal of skill, especially in this sort of scenario. You can't be shooting while they are, you're gonna get a dustbin to the face. A flourish combined with the classic strategy of *run run run run run swing run run run run run* will work out just fine, and if in a party you can just zigzag toward your foe, then spam his ass.

Seriously, don't come to the devs asking for them to make your life easier. The community has generally determined that fiends are harder than other monsters, but we LIKE it that way, since it gives us something a bit more difficult. I recognize that some monsters are impossible to fight with lag, but you shouldn't be basing balances on how things work when laggy.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 23:15

#15

Ulmyr

*sigh*

These points would be better were the Devilish Drudgery areas not designed with the weaknesses of Devilites in mind, and thus many areas in them intentionally make it impossible to circle. I know basic strafing strategies, thank you. It's also very hard to strafe in many of the randomly-generated areas in the Clockworks. And while avoiding full combos is easy enough to say, if you time it wrong (very easy when facing multiple Devilites at once), you have no time to react before one you are not actively shooting at is able to throw something and hit you before you finish the combo.

And about the lag - online games have lag. Online games compensate for lag, and are generally built with lag in mind so that they are fun. Spiral Knights is one of these. Enjoyment is a must in online games so that people buy them, or in SK's case continue to buy CE. I don't live a huge distance away from the servers, but have a slightly subpar connection and cannot get better. Many people are in the same position as I am, and let me tell you that I am by far not the first person I have heard complain about lag in relation to Devilites and Greavers. That so many people hate them is indeed a concern and something that OOO should look into. I am not the only one suffering from this and just because you are not does not make it any less of a point of concern. This is not rocket science.

Zombie leaps have never been problematic and the newer rendition of their leap attack is more dangerous and less easy to predict, but there is still ample warning time beforehand, so I consider the most recent rendition of them tolerable. I get hit by it, but it can be easily dodged and I accept that.

That is what makes something challengingly fun. And let me say that I speak for a great many players who are not posting here when I say that getting hit by a projectile that winds up and is thrown before you're even able to respond to it 'not fun.'

And I am not advocating for the nerf-everything-down-to-the-ground approach. I have already posted small nerfs that I hope would make fiends tolerable - nerf Devilites by toning their projectiles from high-level Alchemer speed to Proto Gun speed and slightly increasing the duration before they throw an item, and nerf Greavers by letting their mist be blocked and reducing their currently misleading hitbox size.

...I'm repeating myself. I don't claim to be the best player in the world and I do have flaws, but I know basic strafing techniques and can effectively deal with Tier 3 solos not involving Fiends or to a lesser extent Shock strata. Said strafing techniques aren't working, however - they work for Tier 1 and 2 Devilites and Greavers, but in Tier 3 I do not have time to react.

I do have dodging skills, but it's rather hard to dodge something which has already hit you by the time you have visual and audial warning of the attack.

You should not have to be an expert player to end up dealing with one of the six monster families. "Good enough" should be good enough. And while I feel they are overpowered, I think that nerfing a small aspect of Devilites and Greavers, not a blanket nerf, would suffice to allow for reactions against their attacks.

"I just got killed by this mob, I deserved that" - good game balance, and something that I often repeat to myself when I'm killed by most mobs.
"How do I even fight against that?" is often something that I repeat to myself when I fight against Fiends, and is not something to look for in game balance.

Ask around in the actual town hubs, you'd be hard-pressed to find even one player who sincerely calls Fiend strata their favorite type, for many of these reasons.

EDIT: And to all of the people (Nicoya and Gwen in particular) who claimed that I should get a set other than Fallen, yes, that would probably be the best thing to do in this scenario, I will probably end up doing that, and I willingly concede that point. However, it's just a small fix for the incredible difficulty of dodging their attacks (especially when they're staggering them), and defensive play for those without above-average Internet speeds/extremely close proximity to the servers should still be possible. Thank you for your advice anyways, and I am heeding it, though they're still difficult in all the wrong ways.

Sat, 02/25/2012 - 23:20

#16

Addisond

Response

Whoa, you speak really coherently. I am following what you are saying (and I totally get the I-can't-solo-shock thing, so annoying) about having it seem impossible to kill devilites. Also, almost everyone suffers from lag, and I'm not suggesting that I'm one of the lucky few to have three to four bar connections consistently. But I guarantee that it is, in fact, possible to take these guys down. I really do not know what you are doing differently from me in this manner, since I can 4* flourish my way through dark city with a few bumps and bruises solo, carrying a BTS/vog. I guess you are playing in a different world than me due to your use of guns, though. Either you have hit the wall entirely as far as skill, or, more likely, you are facing some adversity with these guys as you spent a lot of time with monsters of a very different style in IMF and JK. I do not claim to be any form of an elite player; I've only been playing for three months.

It is also vaguely possible that you are missing some critical aspect of fighting these guys that seems implied to me. I doubt it though.

One last note: Shivermist buster. Though this bomb has a primary purpose as a crowd control and vs vana bomb, it is often overlooked as a viable option vs ranged units. Freeze locks monsters to a fixed position, making gun puppies relatively useless. It is also excellent vs. devils (and kats in dark city), as it locks them in place. Pit bosses find themselves unable to turn and promote their comrades, and the five devils that were previously shooting at you are now facing away in abject silence, leaving you to kill the monsters outside of the blast radius in peace. A shivermist buster can turn a previously hectic crossfire-ridden battle into a peaceful cakewalk where monsters are left squirming in their icy tombs. Though this will not make individual play all that much easier, it makes group fights a breeze. Other haze bombs are also helpful against fiends.

BTW go fight vana with some experienced people. He is a really bad joke when dealt with correctly (assuming you are saying that you haven't fought him, not that you haven't soloed. He is a whole different boss when soloed.).

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 00:10

#17

Ulmyr

Any comments by me saying that it's actually impossible to solo these guys is a bit of hyperbole on my part, and I apologize for that - naturally it is possible and it's been proven on way more times than can be counted. I'd probably be able to do it with better gear, anyways - but I still think it's worth arguing that they should be nerfed or at the very least reworked.

There are ways to make fiends easier than what I'm encountering now - some excellent tips would be to ditch the Fallen set, stop playing solo and go in larger groups, and your suggestion of using the Shivermist against non-Layoafer Devilites/Greavers. That would make them significantly easier and would remove a lot of their teeth, though I still don't envision myself soloing Dark City for fun (or profit). I could also move off of a more defensive playstyle, which would also make things significantly easier, though it's a bit counterintuitive given that every other mob type in the game encourages it.

I get that Fiends are challenging, and it's not my intention to encourage simply nerfing them to the point that they are incredibly easy - what I am upset by, though, is the manner in which they are challenging. Right now they turn fights into matters of speed and reflex, which is somewhat of a crummy situation in an online game with only two servers worldwide. If it's that important for them to be challenging, I wouldn't even mind buffing them in some other areas to make up for their newfound lack of speed (Devilites) and reduced range and shield penetration (Greavers). Buffing their Shadow damage, their health, or even upping the effect of the status conditions they affect would be acceptable in my eyes.

The only thing I have issues with here is how they're made challenging. Alpha Wolvers pre-nerf were infuriating to go up against especially in groups, but on the other hand (barring burrowing shenanigans) they were exhilirating due to their massive damage and the fact that you could see their attacks coming and prepare against them, even if it was difficult. What I'm seeing with fiends is not difficulty in the preparation aspect, it's difficulty in seeing the attacks coming.

I've been playing on-and-off for a good five months, I'm known among the small circle of people I play with as being a fairly decent player, and I have experience with all tiers (mostly solo), so I'm not exactly a newbie. And to dissuade any arguments about me disliking challenge, I do in fact enjoy Candlestick Keep levels.

tl;dr again, it's that Fiends are challenging in all the wrong ways, not because they're hard.

I think I've said all that I need to say without repeating myself and don't want to turn this into a huge sprawled-out debate spanning multiple years, so I'll just end my argument by saying that I do appreciate all the tips on making them easier, but even so it won't make the small nagging design flaws that make them a complete chore to go up against disappear.

And thank you to all that gave advice, it should help take the teeth off of them for myself for the time being.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 01:59

#18

Merethif

Generally I agree that Fiends

Generally I agree that Fiends (except Trojans of course) are more powerful then any other monster. At first I didn't understand why they are nerfing wolvers but not greavers, but with the release of Missions I have a feeling though that monsters are supposed to be categorised into weak families (slimes, beasts), standard families (constructs, gremlins) and hard families (fiends, undead).

BTW I usually use Polaris and Shivermist against them, and somehow manage to survive (it's become even less difficult recently since I've upgraded my Miracle Hood to Divine Veil).

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 04:18

#19

Asukalan

-------------1

Buahahaha, another 'omg no i got pwned by fiends, my ego hurts, please OOO nerf them, i bough best eq i could i should kill em all with finger in my nose" thread. Let me find what i said in other pointless topics like that. BRB

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 04:44

#20

Severage

You did it to yourself...

You just *had* to put "nerf" in the title name, and blew up Asukalan's ticking time bomb.

lol

~Sev

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 05:57

#21

Wuvvums

+1 It's just really hard to

It's just really hard to compare fiends and the way they play in the tiers. Even in tier 2 they find a way to pick you apart in their groups and their dodginess is just frustrating. The difficulty curve jumping from one monster family that you're used to to fiends is just ridiculous.

The clouds for greavers could definitely use some changing though. Run from them? Sometimes they are too fast and damage you anyways. Shield? Their clouds will eventually break that shield. Take the shield down and try to fend them off with an attack? The clouds will force you into a shock or stunlock half the time. I've also been seeing greavers followed by healers.

I was doing a simple recipe run which I usually do without problem. It was at floor 22 though that I hit a clockworks fiend level and it was like hitting a brick wall. I gave up. Someone could say that I'm just QQing but the difficulty of a game should have a gradual scale. In short, the difficulty curve shouldn't be a straight wall.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 06:18

#22

Rustork

>>>...Devilites are

>>>...Devilites are unpredictable and their projectiles move faster than lag lets me respond, meaning as soon as they've thrown the projectile I get hit.

So, problem not in Devilites - problem in lag. Connection mean a lot in SK. Check you ping and www.pingtest.net and also see, what jitter you got. I changed my provider from WiMAX to Ethernet Cabel and got perfect connection now (4 bars). Solved almost all problems.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 06:25

#23

Asukalan

Fiends? Moar plax. So easy to

Fiends? Moar plax.

So easy to kill with right weapon. You dont have right weapon? Make it. You dont want to make it? Die or deal with it and do other runs.

You have right weapon and you die? Guess your tactic is flawed or you dont really know how to deal with them. What makes this game unique that it values skill over gringing. We dont have silly stats that go up with hours of repating same thing. We use skills in playing to deal with dangers.

You cant deal with dangers? AVOID THEM. Its basical survival instintinct. LOL its like you see a man with a gun, you punch him in face, end up in hospital and write petition "Dear all weapon manufacturers, please make gun bullets slower and make guns shoot with delay becouse i dont have enough reflexes to avoid bullets"

BECOUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU, whinners who when get killed, instead of considering it a lesson (TO AVIOD THOSE THINGS or be better prepared next time) go to forum and complain about their helplessness and hurted ego becouse they just couldnt be able to kill something, they removed beloved TORTODRONE!

Becouse of ppl like you, who cant learn from their own mistakes, they had to punch that pacefull tortodrone, they got owned, they complained and OOO removed it.

Now fiends are the problem? You go, you cant kill then AVOID THEM, not complain and ruin game for everyone.

And most fun thing, your argument "not fun to fight". DEHELL? Did you ever though that not everything should be fun? Didnt you think that maybe there should be something DANGEROUS and FEARED by all players in game? You say lags make you unable to beat them? Sorry, its your internet, its your computer. Dont ruin game for eveyone becouse YOU have lags. Also you cant be sure if LAGS are caused just by game/internet connection. Hardware may cause them too. I played perfectly fine on US server (im in EU) with 1MB connection and 2 bars. When i have lags its usual becouse there is ninja-background process that takes CPU resources, or something interferes with my WIFI.

Hard to dodge attacks? "Their projectiles move so fast and execute so suddenly" Fast and suddenly are non relative terms, maybe its just you who cant react fast enough, maybe you cant focus your attention, or you have eye problem and you dont notice how they rise their little hands before they throw anything (you wear glasses?)

Also multiple ppl pointed yout that your equipment fails here, after that i can just assume you lack of skills is cause of your problems in major part.

....

Where this game is going to? Nefred zomgies, DONE (but at least OOO fixed it). Nerfed wolvers? DONE Enemies dont move after spawning? DONE. Now its going to nerf fiends just becouse someones ego got slapped by them and they died and instead of taking lesson from it he just wanted to complain.

What next? After fiends being nerfed, lumbers? OMG i got hit by lumber, i know they move so slow, it takes ages untill it hits you bug omg the hit is so hard, OOO NERF THEM!

This game will end up as one big Scuttlebot fest.

ps. Maybe its just me, but i have that feeling. Those nerf topics are appearing just after CE promos appeared and ended. Not sure, but it seems for me that someone bough his way up to T3 and becouse of lack of skills he is dying and he is like "OMG i have equipment, i swing my sword like crazy, it must be that fiends are OP!!11 OMG OOO NERF THEM!"

ps. 2. Only unfair thing about fiends is Greavers mist cloud that can hurt you from behind ground obstacle like block etc. while all other mists/clouds are being stopped by them.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 06:33

#24

Wuvvums

No, I think the person is

No, I think the person is right to complain. I have used the same armor set for every type of enemy but the fiends. For gremlins, beasts, constructs, jellies, and undead you can fight them straight off the bat and start learning their patterns and how to avoid it. Suddenly you have these fiends and NOW is it that you have to invest in different armor sets and relearn everything? Why is it ONLY for fiends? Why does their difficulty curve compared to the rest of the monsters take a huge leap?

And why shouldn't lag matter? I've seen other MMOs open their test servers to all kinds of users because they want to find a way to get at least somewhat optimal performance on even the worst computers. Why does WoW in its closed beta ask for your computer specs? They know that if you can't accommodate "bad" computers then you already alienate and cutout what might be the most common type of player. Maybe I'm sympathetic because for years I had to deal with owning one of the worst computers ever. Believe it or not, not everyone has the money to throw at making their computer or connection experience better. And even "average" machines like mine can have issues with the lag, shields not coming up when they're supposed to, attacks hitting before any indication, and things that feel generally buggy. My boyfriend has a monolith, top of the line computer and even he has some issues with the game's responsiveness and the way it processes things.

I think most of it to blame is in Java but I don't know how easy it would be to rewrite the game in another source (not a programmer at ALL).

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 07:25

#25

Duke-Sky

Well said, Wuwums.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 07:47

#26

Iron-Volvametal

...

"Maybe I'm sympathetic because for years I had to deal with owning one of the worst computers ever."

Did you own a 5 Year-Old Windows Vista Computer with Past Experiences of Trojan Viruses received from my Family's Poor Choice of Downloads? I did.

After getting a new computer, I nearly Cried at the Sight of seeing 4 Bars instead of 1, not getting owned by Near-Invisible Kats, seeing the amazing Detail & Art of the Clockworks, & being actually able to Play.

Anyways, sorry for getting Off-Topic.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 07:52

#27

Wuvvums

Oh no, I owned like a 2-3

Oh no, I owned like a 2-3 year old windows vista laptop that was actually having somewhat of a product recall. Once I got like a 2-year-old acer I was so shocked because it was my FIRST computer that could run -alright- in my life.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 08:46

#28

Arquebus

Nope, no issue here.

I'm a gunner with a Callahan. I shoot, cancel, step to the side, shoot, step back to where I was originally, repeat. No circling necessary. I also used to use an Argent Peacemaker before the latest patch (RIP). Sometimes I'd run around with an RSS or DBB if I was feeling bomby, or just put on my Skelly gear and hack em to bits with a flourish. I consider myself a good player with a decent connection, but I'm hardly "top-tier." It's just a matter of shifting your tactics, and fiends' speed and range just requires a slightly more dramatic shift than with every other "walk forward and bite you" monster.

Ever done a run through Tier 2 in Proto gear? Everything becomes a crazy threat, not only because of the enemies' normal movements and attacks, but because everything takes five times longer to kill... and in that time, you have much more time to get punished for your mistakes. That's what you're doing to yourself wearing the Fallen set in Fiend areas, especially in Tier 3. Your Proto gear might actually be a better option.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 09:13

#29

Saberyoko

Shock fiends + you alone...means your death.
Be honest...the guys think they're easy because somehow gotta luck or fightin with a party with 4 members...
Oh yea...and dont forget they can be turned in Devil It Overtimer...even with a good party, 4 or 5 of them and the game is over...

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 09:35

#30

Asukalan

Btw. Any of you, crying over

Btw. Any of you, crying over fiends beating him with a office chair, thought that maybe fiend lvls are just not for him? You know, you dont have to do ALL the levles, some things may be unaccesable for you due to lack of skills/equipment/time or anything else? You dont need to be able to kill everything, complete every lvl. Some things may be beyond your reach.

Its so silly that becouse of that, you are bringing up your petition to alter the game, just becouse some part of players cant deal with certain type of enemies.

There are so many players who just deal with it or even they CAN KILL FIENDS (so amazing, isnt it?), some of them just accept that fiends are too hard for them and they AVOID THEM (yes, you know you can check next lvl and go back to haven), but somehow small part of those who cant beat fiends run here with cry demanding to NERF them just becouse they COLDNT kill them. Maybe they grow a bit overconfident?

Lol, its like seeing a truck going down highway, jumping in front of it and then after being heavy run over by it, instead of avoiding crossing street just in front of running truck, demanding to make less heavy so you can jump in front of them without a harm.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 09:38

#31

Ndognine-Forums

idk man, I've gone through

idk man, I've gone through strata 6 Fiend levels without a single death. in Skolver.

Just keep your shield up and hit them after they attack and are just sitting ducks.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 09:50

#32

Softhead

My reaction to the Op,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:40

#33

Wuvvums

The people who can handle

The people who can handle fiends just fine probably used to struggle with them when having to overcome the difficulty curve, or just lucky. It still doesn't change the fact that all the other monster families end up being reasonable in challenge, yet the difficulty suddenly jumps and scales up as soon as you hit fiends. I think they should be reasonably as challenging as the other monsters.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:45

#34

Ulmyr

@ Atrumvindex, Asukalanforum

For Atrumvindex: apparently quite a lot of people, given that even after I stopped replying to this thread there has still been ongoing discussion from multiple people, including yourself. Not to mention all of the people ingame who I've heard either complaining about fiends or defending them, so it's safe to say the issue is one that concerns much of the Spiral Knights playerbase as a whole.

For Asukalanforum: Your posts are hilarious and despite your belligerent tone I just can't get offended at you, since you appear to have not read my OP or the discussion afterwards and are just saying whatever. Your typos are also epic. Oh man. Post more, please. You're one of my favorites now.
(Also, it's fairly hard to avoid Fiends in gates when many people intentionally create Fiend strata to annoy others, see also the sheer frequency they pop up before Vanaduke.)

Since it's fairly clear that many of the people responding haven't seen my initial posts and are just basing their responses off of the topic title, I'm going to refrain from repeating myself too much, point most people to the first half of the thread where the major discussion took place, and just leave it at this.

Also, to all of you saying I'm crying and whinning, yes, I will admit this forum thread was indeed created after a rather frustrating session where I got killed twice in a short timespan by Greaver shock-lock, and then was killed shortly after when at low health due to the aforementioned incident by DevilIT floppy discs coming from offscreen. That does not invalidate anything I'm saying, or mean that I somehow have less of a point - and many statements I'm hearing could be better-worded, so in case any OOO employees actually come here it'd do well to flesh out your rebuttals a bit more, in case the guy who's "crying" influences the devs.

Please do yourself a favor and look at the actual discussion taking place. I know that gut-instinct-posting is fun but many of the points brought up have already been addressed and I'd really rather not cut-paste my entire argument for people who didn't have the patience to read it all. I've already done that two or three times.

And yes, my armor sucks when going up against Fiends. I would also like to point out that with every single other strata you can get away with wearing armor/weapons that don't fit the situation entirely (as another poster pointed out), necessitating grinding up another whole armor set to deal with fiends.

What is this game trying to avoid? Grinding. What is this game trying to encourage? Skill. And were that true and being implemented with the current state of Fiends, I could still end up beating them (and others could as well) with the current equipment on hand, with approximately the same level of frustration as most other strata ingame except perhaps Shock.

And to all of you saying "skill more plox," I've already covered this too. I'm a decent player but I'm far from the greatest. But being good, even if you're not the best, should still be sufficient to clear the Fiend strata.

That there is dissent among so many people involving Fiends should be a warning symbol that something's wrong in and of itself.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:45

#35

Asukalan

"The people who can handle

"The people who can handle fiends just fine probably used to struggle with them when having to overcome the difficulty curve, or just lucky...." or they actually think before they fight, they plan ahead, they choose proper equipment, they play with players they know, they talk before fighting, they listen to advice, they give advices to teammates they dont know/not sure if they know how to fight, they know when to fight and when to fall back to regroup....

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:01

#36

Ulmyr

@Asukalanforum

Let me ask you this, Asuka: since you are apparently a guru to be looked up to by your own admission...

- How can you have any surefire way of avoiding Fiend levels when many strata (Fire, Shock, Poison, Freeze, Fiend, Undead)... have many unavoidable Fiend depths, including usually the depths before Vanaduke?
- Even when being able to destroy them effortlessly, how do they stack up in terms of sheer entertainment value to other strata? And if you can't destroy them effortlessly, then would it not be expected and unsurprising for players to complain about them being too hard, thus nor warranting your current anger at my suggestion?
- What would be your suggestion for being able to avoid all of the Fiends that pop up in various strata completely? The area I got destroyed at before I came here was in fact an Undead Clockworks area, not a Fiend area. And if that answer is to stop playing and go home, would that advice not lead to a rather empty Spiral Knights with only a small handful of the best players and an OOO lacking in money due to the fact that I have heard so many people complain about Fiends before and I will not be the last?
- What would you feel about my previous suggestion to rework fiends instead of nerfing them, aka. nerf their speed (Devilites) and bite attacks range and unblockable mist (Greavers) and yet buff them in other areas so the challenge still remains?

Let us assume my chronic skillessness is a given and will not change, and that I will never ascend to the list of the top players of Spiral Knights. What must I do if I apparently cannot master the upper echelons of gameplay?

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:02

#37

Softhead

Dude, you took it serously.

But, the fact you have somthing that is suicide with fiend is making your viewpoint less valid.

I use bomber. BOMBER. And I rarely die.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:05

#38

Demonicsothe

Games all have a part of it

Games all have a part of it that requires effort. From your posts, it seems that you wish to be able to deal with them without getting any better. When presented with strategies on how to fight fiends, you hide behind the lag problem. Lag is not gameplay. If I lag when a lumber is hitting and I don't see it, I get hit. Lag makes everything harder. Lag does not make fiends specifically harder for the player.

There will always be tougher monsters. Why change that? Not everything has to be on equal. Fiends can be fun, as a challenge thing. Calling something "unfun" is not a good petition for nerfs.

After all, I could say that rjp is so easy, so why can't imf be easier. Less traps, less switches. And then when it does get easier than rjp, rjp needs a nerf.

Edit: You say you don't do fsc. Why would pre fsc strat bother you?

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:05

#39

Softhead

Look here,

We had already had enough nerfs. I like challenge. Alot of people like challenge. Infact, when I did work for Idle hand earlier, I liked the fact I died! More challenge compared to earlier missions.

If you don't want fiend, Try and cobvince anyone who hates fiends to change the stratum. Shock is harder than fiends compared.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:09

#40

Wuvvums

There's a difference between

There's a difference between challenge and cruelty, and there isn't really any other situation where being unprepared punishes you as much as fiends do, even in tier 2. A challenge should be gradually layered, so that you are constantly facing something a little harder than before but learning from it. In short, it should curve, that's why I mention the difficulty curve.

There's nothing that sort of trains you for fiends except for fighting fiends itself. And if you went from any other stratum to fighting fiends it does feel like hitting a brick wall. If fiends are meant to be the hardest to fight, then it should be a step above the other monsters, not a whole leap. That doesn't even begin to cover things like the stunlock, the dodginess, and how they manage to pick you apart and yet jump all over the place. Some people can say it's challenging but I find it -tedious- and tedious is not fun. As another note there should never be a situation that stun-locks you, regardless of skill, stunlocking is just not fair.

Do people who fight fiends have fun fighting fiends, and if the fiends were scaled down just a bit would the fun diminish? Was it always fun for you, and did it feel like a gradual scale in challenge the first or second time you came across them? Does the game present you with enough opportunities to fight and practice against fiends that you learn? And is it right that the rest of the monsters are manageable but fiends aren't?

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:52

#41

Ulmyr

@Demonicsothe, Atrumvindex

I've already answered these points. *sigh* I'll cut and paste one last time, just for you guys.

- Games must be designed with lag in mind. Let's say that a Devilite winds up an attack and throws it, then it hits you, all in the scope of 1.0 seconds. If your lag time is, say, a 0.3 second desynchronization with the server, that then gives you a 0.7 second time frame to respond to the windup of the Devilite, interrupt it if at all possible (if your reaction time is 0.2 seconds then you may end up missing the windup frame entirely), and if that's impossible block. In a crowded firefight with multiple Devilites, which usually happens due to their love for businesslike project collaboration, this becomes a fight of reflexes, in stark contrast to every other enemy in the game. While my lag may not totally eclipse their attacks and I can still block if I am quick, it's still nerve-wracking in a bad way.

- I am not against the game being challenging. See also my points about Devilites being reworked instead of nerfed, with their strengths being shifted away from their quick attack speeds and fast projectiles to make them easier to dodge, but (say) giving them a health buff. I also dislike the current state of Zombies, Alpha Wolvers, and Retrodes, and would prefer to see them buffed. I enjoy Candlestick Keep levels and am against nerfing their difficulty, at least in solo play.

- I've been able to handle most strata ingame, before or after the monster nerfs. Fiends have always been an exception that stands out amidst all of the strata that I can do, and they're rather unavoidable, especially when many players richer than I am have fun changing areas into Fiends.

- The FSC example was not one that I was bothered with personally, but is another example of why Fiend strata can often be hard to avoid.

This is not incredibly hard to understand and I've reiterated on most of these points previously, but here's a newer one:

Assuming that all mistakes can be traced back to the player, challenge is a) how hard it is to end up not making mistakes, and b) how much the game punishes you for making mistakes. Candlestick Keep is an example of good, albeit cruel, level design. The Devilish Drudgery areas don't end up following this at all, since they actively go outside of the simple formula and punish you for mistakes you didn't make (or make the entire game into a battle of reflexes) in the form of extremely fast attack speeds. That is an example of fake difficulty and bad level design.

And please, no more comments about my lack of skill or me "buying my way up to Tier 3." As amusing and gratifying as it is it doesn't lend well to good discussion, especially with how hard it is to actually verify that it's true, and in any case I've already said that the game should accomodate for players who are good in tier 3 and not amazing, since good enough should be good enough. That holds true for every single stratum for me. Except Fiends.

Please, just please, if you're going to make a convincing argument, respond to my points instead of how much I apparently suck, a fact which is new to me, as well as the fact that I have apparently spent a multitude of USD that never actually existed on CE purchases that never happened. While relevant to the debate and thus not an ad hominem attack, nobody has anything on anyone else in this regard and instead of turning it into a huge "no u" argument it'd be best to just let this point drop, especially due to the fact that I've already said at least three times that the game should accomodate for those less skilled than the top-tier players.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:51

#42

Demonicsothe

I still think you can

I still think you can overcome the problem you currently have with fiends by gameplay alone. I really do.

And I believe a lag related nerf should not apply, unless everyone in the game is suffering from the same amount of lag at a minimum. In fact, they already did this, by increasing time between monster spawn and action.

After all, if everything was nerfed for all but the laggiest players, this game would get too easy.

Personally, I don't see the difference between a csk fight and drudgery fight. In csk, you are forced to play in a small lit area, all the while dodging howlitzer bullet hell, kat bites, and kat bullets. In drudgery areas, you can dictate the area to fight in, since you can always kite backwards.

Dark city is probably the harder of fiend strats, barring shock greavers. From what I can remember off the top of my head, the harder rooms can be won with a bit of positioning.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:55

#43

Asukalan

@Wuvvums Fiends are cruelity?

@Wuvvums
Fiends are cruelity? This is cruelity
@Ulmyr
Nerf, tweak, rework same thing.

How to surefire avoid fiend lvls, avoid them all ... etc tc - You know there is always a button called "Return to Haven" and look at #30.

Also it was pointed out multiple times that your bad gear is source of your problems.
Also you said it by yourself, you made this topic after being pwned by them, to cry out your pain. As i suggested before take a lesson from it, be prepared next time instead of crying in forum about how bad in killng them you are.

"I've been able to handle most strata ingame, before or after the monster nerfs." So proud of you :3

"Fiends have always been an exception that stands out amidst all of the strata that I can do" Back to post #30. Who cares? You dont have to be best at everything, deal with it. Also if you have no problem with all other monster families, it seems you grow a bit overconfident and fiends have brough you back on earth.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:01

#44

Wuvvums

Don't let Asuka get to you.

Don't let Asuka get to you. He's been very rude to a lot of people in their suggestion topics and tries to make most of the arguments personal.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:08

#45

Asukalan

Resistance is futile, you

Resistance is futile, you know its true, im already in ur mind.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:13

#46

Ulmyr

@Wuvvums

It would be more bothersome if he actually had clear points that touched on any of the issues that are going on. As it stands he's throwing points out there (most of which I've already countered in previous posts) but it's more depressingly amusing than anything else, because the reason I went to the forums and complained about this issue was a bit bigger than a single failed session. The personal attacks are once again funny in a sad sort of way and don't really mean much, so it's easier just to laugh and shrug it off.

Also, his typos are hilarious and make me laugh.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:21

#47

Asukalan

@Ulmyr

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:24

#48

Neodasus

I thought this was going to

I thought this was going to say, "need a buff"

was gonna come in here with a +1 but it's just another scrub

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:34

#49

Ulmyr

@Asukalanforum

I would just like to point out how much I love you for making my day a little brighter.

I've yet to see anything from you other than ranting on about my skill level, throwing around personal attacks, and issuing out some rather terrible advice. If in your mind that makes you think you won the argument, as you were more filled with divine fury than I was, more power to you, I... guess. Kind of a weird position to take, but okay.

But yeah, I'm not turning to you for any serious argumentative points and even some of the people who have posted before you have been far, far more coherent and difficult to respond to than your admittedly amusing points.

I'm not sure what definition of winning you subscribe to, but let me point out two things that I thought were too obvious to need addressing: telling players to avoid fiend strata by simply giving up whenever they run into a single Fiend-capable level is a laughably bad suggestion which is wrong in so many ways that doesn't make the game more fun for anybody (and you know that), your points about my psychological issues have missed the mark, and I can go into a tier 3 gremlin area and kill them even post-buff with a Shadow Driver and a full set of Ironmight armor, meaning that the game is designed so that you don't in fact need the best gear ever to win in most levels (barring Fiend areas). A bit more than two points, but oh well.

So yeah - keep deluding yourself and I'm all for that, but you do realize that throwing out image macros and resorting to personal attacks isn't going to win you any debates, right? Just making sure, though the image macros are sort of funny and clever.

Also, to the poster before me, I'm not sure that even warrants responding to, but okay. Must have struck a nerve.

Sun, 02/26/2012 - 12:50

#50

Dafsh

Ah yes. Fiends.OK, right off

Ah yes. Fiends.

OK, right off the bat I'll admit that Fiends give me trouble. Lots of trouble. My party of 3 just got wiped by shock fiends before FSC yesterday, after which I spent the better part of the next 5 minutes cursing shock fiends gratuitiously. That said, I'm not entirely sure I'd change it -- if only because every other monster type has gotten nerfed and badly. IF the other mons got a boost, I'd say sure, you might want some balance, but as it is, I can breeze through almost every other monster type in this game without too much thought, so a little challenge is appreciated, despite the aforementioned five minutes of swearing gratuitously.

Firstly, I think that with fiend levels, a dose of extreme caution helps a lot. You want to try and lure a few individuals back, and then deal with them using your shielding to avoid their attacks, with a quick weapon so that you can sneak in a hit and then get back to shielding. I know for a fact that we died because we were in a hurry as it was late, and we wanted to get it over with more quickly. That didn't work out so hot for us.

As far as lag goes -- I'm not sure how the game could compensate for lag without being demonstrably easy to cheese and/or speedhack. I think that its reasonably fine except during a spike, and perhaps if you have lots of issues with lag, you might want to play as cautiously as if you had Proto Gear. Also, what they said about a VH penalty to fiends is kinda...true. Why don't you just carry a second set of equip to deal with Fiends? Yes, you don't have to for any other monster type, but seriously, being able to run through a T3 fiend level while wearing armor which gives penalties to Fiends is...yeah, just ridiculous.

And to answer someone's question above, changing it from Java -> Another language like C++ would be a tremendous amount of work and require ludicrous amounts of work to keep the game cross-platform. Especially if OOO has plans to appletize or port this to a Dalvik environment...

Also, Asukalan, why don't you practice trolling some more? You're very bad at it. I'd recommend hanging around some better trolls more, they can give you a few pointers.

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Fiends need a nerf. Badly.