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About the client, OOO please, answer us

77 replies [Last post]
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:37
Aumir's picture
Aumir

As you can see, rage and quitting is filling the forum up. This is just for a reason: We don't have yet a definite answer about us getting a gifting/trading client for the new Expansion Missions. You said you were "trying to" put it in, but many people are taking it as corporate talk for "never".

You know that if you answer with it this will stop, we don't care that you are giving it first to other users. But please, give us a date, a something. This way, all chaos in the forum (which is increasing and forumers even are arguing between themselves) will most likely cease at once.

It sort of sounds bad my post, maybe. But I am doing it so we can all be quiet and you, OOO, don't lose more players which ragequit. Many may be f2pers, but there have been some p2pers already which went off.... so, there, please answer.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:42
#1
Nick's picture
Nick
Developer
I cannot give you a date as I

I cannot give you a date as I do not even know if it's possible. We are are only investigating the possibility of implementing the feature at this time.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:45
#2
Canozo's picture
Canozo
Well...

Lets hope that the rage and all that stuff is gone now that Nick talked. Back to normal days!

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:49
#3
Alynn's picture
Alynn
......

I guess this means the rage will go on

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:09
#4
Vescrit's picture
Vescrit
@Nick

Why not make the expansion pack like a physical pass in your arsenal? Much like the elevator pass, only tradeable.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:23
#5
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
The dev of a game dont knows

The dev of a game dont knows if its possible to implement it? It sounds as awkward as it is, how ppl who created a game dont know if something is possible to implement? Impossible is nothing.

Both elevator pass (an item that just activates upon purchase and is not tradeable) and heat booster (item that is tradeable and user activates it) affect game more than normal items, yet expansion missions cannot be implemented ingame as buyable item? It just had to be put as item (same way as heat booster, elevator pass), make it avaliable in vendor, set a CE price and just make it unlock expansion missions on activation. It dont differs from heat booster much, heat booster upon activation triggers heat boost (shows extra graphic, gives you more heat) while expansion mission item would just trigger on expansion missions. Make that item last forever or put it as artifact or even for god sake, fine make it expire after 30+ days but make it avaliable with CE

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:24
#6
Hasturhasturhastur's picture
Hasturhasturhastur
@Nick

Or make it similar to the Starter Kit, which (I believe, at least) can be gifted to other players if they don't already own it.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:29
#7
Vescrit's picture
Vescrit
Oh Asukalan u so funneh!

Oh Asukalan u so funneh!

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:50
#8
Acck's picture
Acck
Edit?????

So, why did my comment get deleted?

I was merely pointing out that OOO is giving the impression that f2p features are no longer possible to implement, due to technical constraints.

Nick, if you are a real person, your above comment is an obvious example of corporate doublespeak as defined by George Orwell.
If you do not like my comment, comment back, do not be petty and summarily delete it.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:53
#9
Hmmnm's picture
Hmmnm
Nick, SK has already

Nick, SK has already implemented an expansion pack before Crimson Hammer that was purchasable with CE. It's the Shadow Lairs.

Your vague answer is exactly why people are raging.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:58
#10
Eurydice's picture
Eurydice
Community Manager
Nick didn't delete your

Nick didn't delete your comment, Acck. I did, because it violates the forum guidelines about personal attacks. Go ahead and ask your question about implementation, or debate this release as you please, but do it without getting personal.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:05
#11
Tengu's picture
Tengu
I think we'll have a round of

I think we'll have a round of diet pepsis and tinfoil hats, please. Can you also make the arguments half-baked? Logic makes my tummy wobbly <:P"""

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:05
#12
Eurydice's picture
Eurydice
Community Manager
@Asukalanforum: I take it

@Asukalanforum: I take it you're not an engineer. Yes, there are circumstances under which software engineers have to research something before they can decide whether it is possible to implement. Just because you, looking at it as a user, think something should be easy, does not mean it is that way internally.

The expectation that everything should be instant and easy for the devs to do falls under the category of complaints known as "It should just take a couple lines of code, right?" and includes such demands as "Just roll back all your code until there are no bugs," and "Just do 'set bugs = none'". (Both of which we've had suggested to OOO devs in the past.)

If Nick says he's looking into something, he's genuinely investigating it with the rest of the SK team. Lay off.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:08
#13
Rangerwillx's picture
Rangerwillx
They are looking into it, no need for rage.

Eurydice = Awesome.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:11
#14
Skold-The-Drac's picture
Skold-The-Drac
Brownnosing? No...

Eurydice's post = answer I wanted.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:13
#15
Exileddread's picture
Exileddread
This is good to hear.

This is good to hear.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:19
#16
Tengu's picture
Tengu
Eurydice, your post makes me

Eurydice, your post makes me mad, because it needed to be said...AGAIN.

Can you just, I dunno, script up something on this board that will automatically post your response when someone starts a post about how horribly OOO is mistreating their players?

I swear it's like playing a game with 2500 toddlers with communication skills.

WHO LETS A TODDLER POST ON A FORUM?

WHO?????

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:21
#17
Jamoo's picture
Jamoo
Tengu.

You've obviously never met G-who-must-not-be-named.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:23
#18
Slayzz's picture
Slayzz
Hold on a sec.... "I cannot

Hold on a sec....
"I cannot give you date as I do not even know if it's possible."

Does this mean Nick is no longer in full control of SK?

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:25
#19
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
Could be that he doesn't work

Could be that he doesn't work on all the codes, and so he has to communicate with other developers to see if they can add this without breaking the rest of the game.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:31
#20
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
Im not saying its easy. Im

Im not saying its easy. Im just pointing out that it seem the system that allows a certain item, that is buyable with CE and tradeable, upon activation affect certain part of gameplay.

And shadow key is perfect example. We pay CE for it it opens an elevator. It should be same with Expansion missions. You can go down to a lobby but you cant use elvator untill you have expansion pack key/trigger item.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:34
#21
Psychodestroyer's picture
Psychodestroyer
Hi Eury!

/wave

Can someone give me a new tinfoil hat? I disposed of mine the last time it went out of fashion, and I seem to need it for the same reasons again.

Tinfoil hat plz? plox?

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:35
#22
Acck's picture
Acck
My apologies

I would like to apologize for any personal attack.

It is however a bit difficult to comment on someone's doublespoken statement without it being viewed as a personal attack.

Personal attack was not the purpose of my comment on someone towing the company line.

I will now sit back and wait to see if OOO and Sega can find a way to implement changes that keep the integrity of a f2p game.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:54
#23
Dukeplatypus's picture
Dukeplatypus
Honestly, I just can't get

Honestly, I just can't get mad at the forum-active GMs. They're just such awesome people.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 12:57
#24
Tengu's picture
Tengu
I know, right? Eurydice and

I know, right?

Eurydice and Nick have many a cat to herd.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 13:56
#25
Tantarian's picture
Tantarian
Tigthen up the graphics on level 3

@Eurydice
The problem is that OOO is doing the whole DLC deal, which is troublesome.
Something like this could have been implemented easily if it was part of the usual game parameters.
For example, missions access could be gained via a usable item, received on purchase.
Then item trading would be an already supported method for trading.
It wouldn't be "as fancy", but people would be happy. And the programmers too I guess.
DLC for an MMO is "bad design" in my opinion.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 14:02
#26
Nordlead's picture
Nordlead
As a software engineer

As a software engineer myself, I know exactly how it goes. Just like Eurydice said, everyone thinks it is just a couple lines of code and should only take a few days. The best schedule I ever got was 2 man-weeks to change a programs communication protocol from USB to ethernet. If they had actually talked to me before they created the schedule, they would have realized it was over a 6 man-month effort and a complete software rewrite.

Part of the problem may be that they need to interface with steam (since you can buy it as a steam DLC). OOO would need some way of telling steam that the DLC was traded (since the DLC isn't in your Spiral Knights inventory). If Steam doesn't allow that, then OOO would not be able to allow trading CE for DLC from steam users, but they might be able to do a system like that for non-steam users only. I don't know all the details, just what I observed while trading for the DLC on steam.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 14:03
#27
Neodasus's picture
Neodasus
Keep those delicious tears

Keep those delicious tears coming.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 14:26
#28
Tenbriastar's picture
Tenbriastar
I wouldn't want to be in

I wouldn't want to be in OOO's shoes right now. Darned if they do and darned if they don't. I won't say they didn't bring up this on themselves, though. But hopefully they'll be able to find a compromise for everyone. As a programmer, I can see how it might be difficult or even just not possible to make this expansion tradeable within the client in the way it's being handled right now (It's in the same category as elevator passes, they modify your account's status, but they never exist as an item within the game. They need to be like this in order to be tradeable.)

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 15:40
#29
Ubernerd's picture
Ubernerd
/applaud Eurydice

Thank you so much, Eurydice. He/she's needed his/her mouth forcibly closed for him/her many a time since this update. Bravo.

And she's right, people. Coding isn't easy and debugging is even harder. Try being grateful for having a game at all for once.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:02
#30
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
control

Slayzz:
Does this mean Nick is no longer in full control of SK?

Hands are tied a little bit by Steam, I believe. I'm not all too sure about SEGA / OOO's relation though, since I wasn't active when that all happened.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:10
#31
Komos's picture
Komos
"set bugs = none"

As a computer science student, I laughed so hard I cried at that. And then I read that people actually suggested that and died a little on the inside.

And honestly, unless you actively learn coding, you'll never be able to fully understand how difficult and time consuming things like this are. Nordlead made a good point that things that might "seem" simple can in reality be insanely complex.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:24
#32
Guyinshinyarmour
--

@Nordlead
As I understand, you can still buy the thing from OOO with a vanilla acct. As such, they got some kind of architecture in place that isn't intrinsically tied to Steam. They merely need to make a useable-class item that, once used, trips the same thing on *any* account, and have the item delivered on purchase to you in the manner promo items are. Just make sure said item is tradeable, make sure you can't use more than one on an account, etc.

Least that's what it looks like to me. Probably got things to iron out over it, but it still seems feasible (though it's mostly me talking out my bum :p).

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 18:53
#33
Tantarian's picture
Tantarian
Pfft

As a software engineering student myself, if things like these are overly complex it's OOO's fault for having or accepting bad software design into their game. Steam's DLC thingy most likely.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 05:03
#34
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
Or they just didnt planned on

Or they just didnt planned on making it tradeable/giftable within official client. And now they just say stuff like 'we are working on it' to keep us waiting for thing that wont come.

They could make it work just like shadow lairs from very beginning, make an item bought from vendor for CE that is bound on purchase, make you able to ride down to expansion mission lobby where elevators are locked. When you use that item you unlock elevator. Same result but it can be bought both with purchase and with CE.

And now they are working on it... I UNDERSTEAND IT CAN TAKE TIME, A LOT TIME, fine. But what ticks me off that they allow possibility that is IMPOSSIBLE to implement?!

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 05:17
#35
Kickthebucket's picture
Kickthebucket
not a programmer or something

not a programmer or something of the like but maybe you could make the DLC something like the elevator pass but tradable? don't know if it's hard for OOO to do this but think that would be the best way to handle it (and keep the dlc on steam for steam clients)

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 06:28
#36
Dukeplatypus's picture
Dukeplatypus
@Asukalanforum I think the

@Asukalanforum
I think the thought process was the steam DLC was much simpler to implement because it used the already existant steam trade, so they'd just release that first with an earlier launch of crimson hammer while they figured out how to do it client-side, rather than possibly releasing everything together up to a month later, with limited or no remaining appeal for missions, if they even figure out how to do client-side at all. The thing you have to realize is that programming isn't wizardry. There are limitations to what you can create, how to mesh in the new code with what you've already written, and there any possibilities at all to work them into 3rd party, say Valve's, code.

You GMs may be a clever bunch, but if all else fails you can always fall back on the plethora of programmers in your audience.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 06:54
#37
Nordlead's picture
Nordlead
@GuyinshinyarmourThe problem

@Guyinshinyarmour

The problem is the people who buy via steam have a steam coupon to redeem. You can't trade those ingame, but only through steam. Allowing people to trade that steam coupon in client may not be possible. They may have to rework it completely, but then steam may not consider it DLC and might not let them sell "in game items" on steam pages. I'm not a big steam user, but I can't say I've ever seen a page on steam that let's me buy a specific item in-game. I don't even know if this is an issue, it is just my guess since I can see it being something that OOO has to explore before doing anything in game.

I know they can do it like elevator passes, or other items, but how do you keep your current steam setup (which is desirable for advertising) and allow it to be traded in game is a different story.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 07:31
#38
Tenbriastar's picture
Tenbriastar
A compromise would be to

A compromise would be to allow for temporary passes at a reasonable CE cost that let you do CH, but then all those who paid for the DLC will feel a bit cheated out of it; maybe letting those who do own the DLC invite friends who don't have it with a few daily limitations, but even then I can see how it could be exploited. Perhaps just make the prizes craftable themselves with items from the missions or with bound recipes, if just to keep a somewhat limited supply.

I dunno if there's an easy answer to this. And thinking more thoroughly about it, I don't know either if OOO had much choice in that regard, with Sega breathing down their necks and the chance for major exposure through Steam that would bring them in more revenue. Let's see how all this develops in the next days.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:29
#39
Ufana
Is there a workaround of any

Is there a workaround of any sorts in planning? Or something?

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:31
#40
Argune
I have no idea what i'm

I have no idea what i'm talking about. but i am a programmer.

I wasnt aware of the dlc available on the vanilla client. but i do have some questions about it and the steam DLC.(i'm not expecting an answer)

example buy dlc from vanilla client then merge your account with steam. will steam show that you have purchased this DLC?
If the above works without question i see it as very possible.

however if there is some restrictions with steam/dlc deals ect. where the above is not so possible. i can see how its impossible.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:47
#41
Juances's picture
Juances
~

^ the 'issue' is that some simply hate steam, and this forces you to use it if you want to trade.

I'm not defending or attacking anyone, but why offer a standalone or kongregate client if it's gonna end like this?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 08:15
#42
Ufana
Sry, but it's really hard to

Sry for our stubborn scepticism, but it's really hard to believe, that there are really technical problems rather than "political reasons". Is there no kind of customer service or workaround you can offer to those that are affected by the problem?

Many of us might already have paid for that expansion one way or another and just can't justify paying for it again. I know I can't - especially since many details of the update seem to "fit together" so perfectly and make me feel used, manipulated, sold, betrayed and forced to purchase it again or bind myself to steam. To me the whole thing looks suspiciously like someone put a lot of thought into how to maximize pressure on the customers by any means possible and he did a pretty "good" job.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 08:38
#43
Paweu's picture
Paweu
The funniest thing is that

The funniest thing is that people have no problem spending $10 for a costume piece (that comes with energy that they don't really need because they have elevator passes and already all gears they wanted) but complain when they have to pay $4 to get quality content (because they previously bought tons of energy at the promos just to get the costume pieces) and now complain that their energy is worthless. Well duh, to me it seems that direct payment is the only way for OOO to directly earn on this content and honestly, if this worked for them and they will keep up the quality i'll most likely buy those expansions as they come out as long as they wil be of this quality.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:37
#44
Ravenevan's picture
Ravenevan
You know, he has a point...

@Paweu , You definitely have a good point.

Without money, OOO can't keep the game going at all, Let alone free.

So basically, remember this kids
Money=power, Power=camels, Camels=5 celery sticks.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:57
#45
Zinqf's picture
Zinqf
@Difficulty of implementation?

How hard is it to make an item that functions just like a Heat Amplifier. Tradable, Auctionable consumed on use item that provides a permanent benefit (In this case, unlocking these expansion missions) to the character that uses it?

Seriously.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 13:24
#46
Juances's picture
Juances
~

They want to maintain it as a dlc thingy that is accepted by steam. This is what makes it impossible to adapt.

Thats' the only reason i can find. I mean, why else would they implement a new system that overcomplicates things instead of making shadow lairs 2.0?

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 15:28
#47
Blackskies
There's been a lot of rage on here lately...

And so the user dev battle rages on. The players need to relax present their issues and let the devs decided how to implement solutions, and the devs need to assure the masses with reasonable certainty that they will address the issues and then do so in an intelligent fashion. Will this peaceful and cooperative existence ever actually come to be? Probably not... but we can try can't we? For those of you who don't even know what a coding language IS just keep in mind that the devs' job are far more complicated than you'd imagine. That being said users have certain expectations which are entirely understandable. I empathize with both ends of the equation. Likewise each side should consider the other's position. In the end we both need each other.

EDIT: So bassically ... @Nordlead - What he said.

Sun, 03/04/2012 - 19:02
#48
Guyinshinyarmour
--

@Nordlead
Who said anything about letting the *Steam* coupons be tradeable in the SK client?

Your concern about whether Valve would approve of this or not is valid, however. It might be easy to code and implement, but they're prevented from doing this by some agreement with Valve. That would most certainly make it impossible to do.

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 10:56
#49
Ufana
Those thoughts raise the

Those thoughts raise the question, why it's taking so long to find out if it's even possible though. I cant but imagine Nick being stuck on hold in the technical support hotline of valve or something like that... guess it's either that or this issue is way down on the priorities list at the moment D:

Mon, 03/05/2012 - 13:18
#50
Nova-Royal's picture
Nova-Royal
Is the game a f2p

Is the game a f2p anymore?

Some people may argue that one DLC will not change the type of the game, but its certain that they will be more DLC in the future.

The game is looking more and more like a p2p. Keep that in mind Devs.

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