Spiral Knights - RE: Proposed Shields and new shielding mechanic. (New implementation of wings as shields and new form of defensive gunplay)

RE: Proposed Shields and new shielding mechanic. (New implementation of wings as shields and new form of defensive gunplay)

33 replies [Last post]

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 21:25

Evning

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NEW TYPES OF SHIELDS - 60% chance that it has been proposed before
=============================================================================

Our implementation of a shield is not really a physical shield, it is a shielding aura.
On that thought, our shields does not actually have to be actual shields.

What if our shields looked like wings?
The shield would attach without the slight skew that current shields have.
They could also be stowed folded to be aesthetically different from its in use animation.
When not in use in the clockworks, the shields would stay on our back, unfolded.
When in used, the shield would wrap around our knights.

The other animations, the shield aura and hand raising action, could remain unaffected.

The current wing accessories be changed a "costume" shields whenever a Wing Shield is equipped.
They might be scaled up to match the vision of a Wing shield.

I believe this is not very code intensive, but art intensive.

Thinking along that lines, Why stop at wings?
Capes could offer similar protection.
In the case of capes, they shielding hand would pull on the cape during shielding.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR
Wings and capes utilized as shields.

=============================================================================

=============================================================================
NEW TYPE OF SHIELDING MECHANIC - 55% chance that it has been proposed before
=============================================================================

What if projectiles were able to collide with each other, cancelling each other out
Weapons like the spur and flourish series, as well as most guns, would be able to "shield" against ranged attacks
by shooting them down in mid air.

The biggest problem i see would be that autogun would become the defacto shielding gun.
In that case, maybe only projectiles of the appropriate type is able to cancel each other.
Energy orbs by energy orbs
Physical projectiles by physical projectiles.
However this seem a little too messy and would make combat messier then it already is.
It would seem easier to just prevent the autogun series from shielding on the grounds that their projectile is too small =p

The reason for this is to make ranged play(read: guns XD ) fundamentally different from melee play; by adding a new mechanic.
Ranged players would not only be worried about dealing damage, they would also have to think about how they would like to use their projectiles.
Either to deal damage or to prevent taking damage.
Keep in mind this means that guns will be considered to be an even weaker DPS option,
but what it sacrifices in damage, it gains in defense.
Hopefully this would be a good reason to slightly buff gun damages.

Again i worry about further making a mess of combat.
(things popping, flying, magically appearing, behind you, tripping you, preventing your retreat, is quite a mess in my opinion.)
In addition, adding collision may not be a trivial thing, This could require code work.

As i am not a regular Lockdown player, I am not able to comment on how it would affect Lockdown.
It might be very bad in a way that all gunners would be neutralized by Winmillions.
Or it might be fine in a way that slow projectiles like Polaris no longer pose a threat.

Further pondering on this idea would be done in the back of my head.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR
Bullets hit Bullets.

=============================================================================

I hope you enjoyed reading my suggestions and that i have piqued your interest and sparked your imagination.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 22:37

Evning

Updated

Initial Draft Completed

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 23:48

Tsubasa-No-Me

LOL

I am actually very amused by this thread, Not only can I be Dracula, but I can have an ASI fight with other Antigua users! hehehe...

But actually, I think you bring up some important things...

~Tsu

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 07:48

Evning

I am glad

you are able to see the possibilities offered =]

Dracula Cape, add a chaos, grey feather or even a phantom hood, would be so nice =p

An Antigua Shoot out, I seriously did not think of that.
1 on 1 gunner duels would be so awesome =p

Thanks for finding them important =]

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 08:48

Juances

Dark retribution = immortality circle :p

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 09:38

Evning

Dark retribution

I do not think those orbiting orbs count as projectiles.

They are like floating sledge hammers.

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 10:03

Demonicsothe

Rubber mallets. Slow rubber

Rubber mallets. Slow rubber mallets.

I'm kinda worried though. The projectile cancellation could be bad for gunners. Especially alchemer users. They depend on each bullet hitting in the right spot for dps. Antigua line can spam bullets and still have enough to do damage. Loss of one shot is nothing huge. But alchemers, if used to destroy other bullets, lose out on half their dps right there. And even if you do shoot between to hit an enemy, the ricochet effect will be, in all likeliness, reduced.

And allowing swords to "bat" gunshots out of the air is an unnecessary sword buff.

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 12:56

Juances

The game is pertty offensive based. Many may hate such defensive approach for guns.

Make a poll in general discussion and see how many haters can spawn in 1 day.

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 15:30

Severage

lol.

AP/Sentenza = Invincible to Gun Puppies and Polyps.

~Sev

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 05:13

Evning

@Demonicsothe, Juance, Sev

First off, swords cannot "bat" a shot out of the air,
I did think of this, but nah, swords dun need the buff.
Those swords i mentioned happen to be projectile swords. and only their projectiles will interact with other projectiles.

With regards to loss of DPS, playing defensively and gun puppies and polyps.

Shooting down another projectile is not an easy task. In this game, other then gun puppies and polyps(they form the bulk of projectiles, i know)
The other projectiles flies at a pretty fast rate, Horned slimes for example.

For the slower projectiles, you can shoot them down, but why would you?
If I am faced with a single turret, I usually side step their projectile and walk, unshielded or shielded, towards the source(so it will be in my range) and gun it down.
If you unfortunately find yourself forced near these sources, shielding would serve you better.

A better application of projectile cancelling would probably be against devilite's projectiles, horned slime projectiles, missiles from missile puppies and howlitzers.
Although i admit, maybe the missile and howlitzers should be invincible to being shot down.

(Addendum 1 :: howlitzer heads can be shot down)

Because these projectiles are fast and irregular, and these monsters move fast,
Defensive play is unavoidable, yet shielding may provide a disadvantage.
shielding and retreating while viable, i often find myself backed against a wall after a while.
When faced with these situations, projectile cancellation could provide an advantage.
you would be able to stay on the offensive yet not be completely defenseless.
However projectile cancellation is not easy to perform on fast moving projectiles, due to human reaction and lag.
You will not be able to 100% cancel all their projectiles, but at least you will not take 100% of the damage.

On the other hand, some of you argued that you would do less damage target.
Yes that is true. but if all your projectiles hit, but you still die from the damage taken, that is not much fun anyhow =[
I would sacrifice some damage, be a little patient, if that means that i survive.

Another scenario is bullet hell scenario. When the whole screen is filled with things that prevents your projectiles from reaching their target.
With regards to this aspect, i must confess i have yet to invest much thought into it.
As i said, i have yet to fully developed and debug the idea.

Projectile cancellation would make bullet hell harder then it is now for gunners
Shielding may not last as long as needed, and players would have a hard time landing shots.

However think of it in another perspective, This is bullet hell.
Lets assume that players only play swords, bombs or guns, and that players don't usually pack a gun for gun puppies.
This would make bullet hell a truly challenging scenario for all players as every player would have to inch towards each turret to take it down.
Then gunners would complain that they would be saddled by an unnecessary disadvantage.
I like to think having the option to shoot out a small path and running at full speed towards a turret counts as an advantage.
And keep in mind that if you are using an Alchemer in a bullet hell, you would still have your ricochets to boost your damage.

Next let me tackle ricochets. if your shots land in a monster group, i think the ricochets would connect too quickly to be disrupted by an errand projectile from another monster.
Also not all monsters would suddenly gain the ability to actively aim at player projectiles.
(when i said not all, i meant, that it could be interesting to have, but would require new coding.)
In addition, if an Alchemer shot hit another projectile, i would think the Alchemer shot would not lose its ricochets.
The ricochet system would gain a certain degree of randomness due to this.

I hope this will be able to satisfy the 3 of you.
In short,
@Sev
gun puppies and polyps projectiles are not really worth cancelling, unless it is a bullet hell, in which case, read above.

@Juances
Defense is just an integral part of the game as offence, especially so for gunners.
I hope that projectile cancelling would be able to offer gunners a halfway point between complete offence, or complete defense during sticky situations.

@Demonicsothe
Swords would not bat down projectiles, only projectiles(from swords or guns or bombs that shoot stuff outwards.... not sure if any exist)
would be able to interact with other projectiles.
Also Spamming shots would not benefit a gunner, It is my hope that projectile cancelling, would reinforce the importance of shot placement, as projectiles would offer an added dynamic.

I believe i can summarize what i said by this:
Keep in mind projectile cancellation is not designed to be a total replacement for shielding.
It is meant to complement a gunner's defensive play when faced with hordes of shooty enemies.

Lastly, I like to offer up some other benefits i see in projectile cancelling.
This are my thought on Lockdown based on reading forum post, i am not qualified for Lockdown at present.
What this means for sword users would be that the Polaris would no longer keep them from capturing points.
However, toothpick weapons will no longer benefit swordies.
I really enjoy the image of gun showdowns offered by Tsu. Its like a tennis rally where the first person to slip up loses the game.
I am not sure how Lockdown is, but I would like it to be dominated by precise make or break moments when just the right move will decide life and death, instead of spamming stuff.

P.S Hey what about the Wings and Capes as shields? XD
Give me some of your thoughts on that.
I really enjoyed thinking about the scenarios offered by you all =]

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 04:35

#10

Severage

@Evning:

lol. Plenty of post there.

While that's true, Rocket Puppies would be useless. Their firing rate is slooww, they just do a lot of damage. They'd have to be invulnerable (The rockets themselves, that is).

Also, did you think about Polaris? Can you imagine trying to use a Polaris/Supernova? Everything would block it. It'd just disappear by hitting a tiny bullet accidentally.

@Shields:

If it isn't broken, don't fix it imho.

~Sev

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 04:51

#11

Evning

@Sev

Yes, i did, i know they would automatically be blocked, this would count as a nerf to them in Lockdown.
Using them in clockworks would be significantly harder because of their speed, but it would still be usable.

I wasn't fixing the shields... D=
Its a brand new art direction for shields, which does nothing to the mechanics of shielding...

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 05:08

#12

Tapproot

Howlitizers can already have

Howlitizers can already have their heads gone by projectiles. I do it all the time. Kill a howlitizer, pull out a fast moving gun like AP or bomb like RSS (i prefer RSS for the extra accuracy, and because it's a bomb.) Then you shoot the head while it's flying, then it will explode away from you, but if a friend is beside the head the head will explode and hit him/her.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 05:11

#13

Evning

@Zasher

Thanks for telling me, i never bothered because i take them out ahead of other monsters.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 12:05

#14

Severage

@Evning:

Mm...then it's kinda flashy for no good reason. Seems like unnecessary work, not that it wouldn't be cool. Just seems like the Devs have better things to do than make a whole new set of animations that does nothing different. *shrug*

I kinda fail to see how Polaris would be usable at all in PvP. I mean, yes, it needs a nerf, but people will rage all day if a single, tiny, AP shot will obliterate the massive electronic rocket that comes out of the Polaris. Not that I really mind it being useless in PvP...but rage would definitely happen, since so many people rely solely on the ability of their Polaris to win LD.

Zasher is also correct, I usually shoot 'em down with my AP pretty quick so I don't have to shield and stand there for 5 seconds waiting to get hit...or walk in circles to evade it.

Anyway...if you really want to bat down some projectiles, throw some vials. They block most projectiles, just not elemental bullets. lol

~Sev

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 12:16

#15

Fehzor

I don't know about this......

I don't know about this...... I can see maybe one new weapon that shoots projectiles down, or does something with that, but changes the entirety of the game like this? Can't see it happening.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 20:55

#16

Evning

@Severage, Fehzor

Flashyness is very popular and important, a fact proven by the accessories lately =]

It depends on which department needs to work on the ideas, with regards to a new art direction for the wings,
It would require, creating new models for the new shields,
Creating new animations,
All these are the responsibility of the Art department.
On the programming side, there is very little to do,
Depending on the engine, it might require some coding to recognize the type of shield used, and place them in the correct position.

The bulk of the work falls to the Art Department, i know they are busy with new accessories, and maybe new gear, but i hope they can fit this in somewhere.

As for Relying solely on Polaris to win LD.
Some see it as a problem, some do not, it depends on who you are, but major changes are fine,
if everyone uses this as the "I win!" gear, then things definitely need a stir in LD =]
Major changes keep things refreshing and different.

once something dies, or is sure to die, i usually move on to the next monster that is more of a threat =p
and since Howlitzers are high threat, i always take them down, and quickly move to the others, like spookats or greavers.

@Fehzor, Read the post again please and try to picture it in your mind.

Since Vials can take down some projectiles, maybe the coding required is already pretty much in place.
Thats good to know =]

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 21:02

#17

Demonicsothe

I support the shield

I support the shield animations. Imagine a bright wing unfold in front of you like some sort of angel. Or a clawed hand interlaced in the same area.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 21:15

#18

Evning

Ooo Claws!

Nice!

That would look really frightful.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 01:22

#19

Evning

Bump

I believe this is fine since theres a lot of post today.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 04:03

#20

Severage

@Evning:

Flashiness.

And apparently you don't do a lot of LD. There are *counts*...3 sets of gear to use for swordies, two for Gunners, and I'm gonna say two for bombers as well. Maybe 6 or 7 weapons, including guns/bombs. Anything else and you're at an automatic disadvantage. Not that you can't win without it, just at an automatic disadvantage. This is all for Tier 3.

Just saying, Polaris isn't the only "I win!" button, it's just one of the more annoying ones.

I also tend to take out Greavers before Howlitzers, because they obstruct my shooting anyway. I do take out howlitzers before Spookats though. I solo CSKs a lot...stupid prestige missions. :p

You are correct in saying that cosmetic things are (apparently) important to the player-base...

Although you should realize what you're asking from the art department. I mean, look at the armors. The last new sets of armor that came out were in Oct. (Even some pieces of them were re-textures.) All the other artwork since has been for accessories, events, etc. Just look at how many re-textured armor pieces there are. There are just a handful or two of unique textures. Not to mention only a handful of color schemes. It's pretty clear they want to make it look nice without overhauling the work scale.

So, yeah, it would be really neat if a Grey Owlite's wings folded around you, a BTS sprouted a spiky wall from beneath that created a perimeter around you, or a Crest of Almire created a shadow veil around you. I'm not disagreeing there. I just find it highly unlikely, considering the workload:reward ratio for OOO. Since it's just upgrading something that already exists, there's not really any incentive for them to do it...at best, it will make people love the shield's "aura" so much that they'd get one just for that.

Anyway, you've got my support (For the shields at least), though I think it'll be low priority for 6 months or something.

~Sev

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 04:59

#21

Evning

@ Severage

You are right, in fact i just went, so i take back all i said about polaris, its not an i win button.

That said, i still believe that lockdown would be fun with projectile cancellation. would be harder but it could really be interesting.
also, i probably won't be playing lockdown much for now,
I realized i die before seeing the opponent do anything, they walk up to me and i died, after which, i see a sword swing.

As for the art department wanting the game to look nice without overhauling the work scale,
I can't help but feel thats because something big and art intensive is coming.

Even if it takes 6 mths, would be nice if my suggestion eventually gets adopted.
If only there was a surefire way to know right from the horses mouth =d

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 06:13

#22

Evning

Bump

I like to give my idea more air-time.

on a side note, how would we know if our suggestions have been noted?

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 07:21

#23

Sacrontine

Why wings?

Sorry, wings are stupid. The game is called Spiral KNIGHTS. Knights carry shields. Using shields for blocking just makes so much more sense than a pair of wings or a cape. Do you have anything in particular against shields? Can't see why you'd want to replace them otherwise.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 11:10

#24

Evning

@sacrontine

See I dun agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it.
Thanks for the feedback

Knights didnt do a lot of things that we do in the game. But we still do it anyhow.
Knights would not use energy, knights would not dress like cowboys, or musketeers, or use weapons with bad CG.
Knights would not have suffered a women amidst their ranks so the Valkyrie sets would have to be torched.
As well as pony tailed helms.
Let's also take out those wings accessories going by your argument.
Actually, in my opinion, if u asked a medival knight if they would want angelic wings, they would either say that's blasphemy or it would be a great honor to be closer to god.

But by your argument, knights wore capes. So I guess that's ok in your book right?

We are not the knights from the age of crusades, nor even in real life.
The game world is what we make of it =]

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 11:22

#25

Diamondshreddie

O_O

yes...

i want to pull my magic cape before my face, while wearing my big clunky bulky mercurial demo suit XD seriously!!

+1 to capes

i think the autoguns should be able to cancel projectiles, this would make them unique. also note that they do hinder your movement, so more defendability is perfect.

AND ALSO IMPORTANT NOTE: try throwing a vial at a puppy bullet next run ... you will be amazed XD

+1 to projectile cancelling

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 12:26

#26

Evning

@diamondshreddie

Thanks for the support on capes.

Yes It has been mentioned. But I don't prefer to block that way.

For 1. It's a 2 button action. I.e slow.
Next, it's limited by my stockpile of vials.
I know vials are plenty, but it's still a limit, but that is just me being picky. Heh..

I do see your point that auto gun is already disadvantaged by being unable to move,
and it does sound logical setting up an impenetrable and immovable wall against projectiles,
But i would hate for it to be the only gun that can cancel projectiles.
Also, it's the only line of gun I see that could deal damage and cancel projectile at the same time due to its sheer number.
If this ever gets implemented, we should totally test it thoroughly in the test server.

Thanks =]

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 12:57

#27

Sacrontine

I'm just saying, using wings

I'm just saying, using wings as defence seems like something a more supernatural creature might do, like maybe if the game were about vampires or angels. The basic idea of spiral knights is that they are some kind of sci-fi magitech warriors (with some other stuff thrown in, as you mention). Their stuff is powered by some futuristic energy technology, but it's still armour, swords and shields, and I just think outright replacing shields with wings seem unnecessary, and clashes too much with the basic concept.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 14:46

#28

Severage

@Evning:

o.o...

Knights would dress like musketeers... ._.

But, who says the angel wings have to be god-infused magic? I mean, we have energy and all sorts of technology, can't we just say they're expanding nano-tech emergency devices or something?

Just saying.

EDIT: " that could deal damage and cancel projectile at the same time due to its sheer number."

*cough*Antigua*cough*

~Sev

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 21:32

#29

Evning

@ Sev

That is essentially What the rose regalia is about =p
I like the plume.

I used that as a period example. It was in reply to Sacrontine.
But yes, when i say wings, its just an attractive banner for shielding back equipments, it can be anything that fit the current armor lines.

I know antigua has a large capacity, equal to one shot of the autogun

And it is a mobile gun, but i see it as less of an issue compared to autogun because you need to click 6 times as opposed to 1 time for the autogun
maybe i should try to make a table.

Normal Attack(spamming attack button)
Specs----------------Shots-------Speed-------------------------------------------Spread (for 6 shots)
Autogun--------------2*6----------2 clicks to put out 12 shots------------a small arc of fire would not block as much but the small arc would be well covered
Antigua(spam)-----1*6----------6 clicks to put out 6 shots-------------360 degrees
(EDIT: i will analyse what if a user camly fires the antigua so it would not reload later in the day)

In this case, both can potentially can eliminate up to 6 incoming in a best case scenario, but antigua has a better ideal case coverage.

Charged Attack
Autogun------------->7(tbc)-----takes a longer time to finish attack----a really wide spread
Antigua--------------7-------------duration not as long as autogun---------a straight line

Autogun wins hands down here, as a wall, as well as being able to take out more incoming projectiles, and then some.

So in my opinion, comparing both guns best scenario, Antigua is prone to failure under duress, but the Autogun, not so much.
Antigua's mobility may make up for not being able to clear out a flood of projectiles, but in the case of latency, thats not so clear cut.
personally, i see the automatic nature of the autogun as a bigger problem when contrasted with the slightly less automatic nature of using antigua to shoot projectiles.

I think its safe to say that if this is ever implemented, both guns need to be well tested.

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 02:12

#30

Severage

@Evning:

lol.

You went through a lot of trouble for that.

What I'm saying is, Autoguns aren't 100% Accurate. In fact, unless you use the charge attack, they're likely <70% accurate.

Antiguas won't waste bullets by unintentionally batting targets out of the air. Antiguas will hit their mark every time, while an autogun will likely waste bullets by hitting extra projectiles, not to mention missing some of them.

Unless you're using an autogun to only block projectiles, and not do any damage, Antiguas win. I don't know why you'd need to clear out more than what's immediately in front of you to protect yourself, so there's no point in wasting bullets on it.

Also, would the Eagle from the charge attack of the AP/Sentenza bat all projectiles? Cause that'd be a bit OP as well.

~Sev

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 04:15

#31

Evning

Huh?

Yea. I thought it would be good to lay down all my opinions.

I think we might be on different pages here. How are u able to say u will definitely be able to not miss shooting a small moving target?

In fact I would think the autogun would be the one that would take down at least 90% of what it aims at, because all 6 shot rely on one aim point and one chance the aim point would miss the target. However that chance to miss is further reduced by the spread of the 6 bullets.
The Antigua would be less effective because each shot is independent of the group and is prone to missing individually, and it is not compensated by a wide spread per shot.

Also I am saying projectile cancellation is not helped by autoaim.

Right now let's just work under the assumption all projectiles count as 1shot. Regardless of size.

So are we misunderstanding each other? @_@

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 10:41

#32

Severage

@Evning:

...

If you miss as many antigua shots as you miss with an Autogun....

You really shouldn't be using guns..

At all...

~Sev

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 10:48

#33

Dougknight

ice queen

there should B a matching shield for the ice queen set

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RE: Proposed Shields and new shielding mechanic. (New implementation of wings as shields and new form of defensive gunplay)