Spiral Knights - Buff the Plague Needle

Buff the Plague Needle

67 replies [Last post]

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 08:28

Veacon

Just as forum title says, I think that the plague needle is in a severe need of a buff.
Not a serious buff, mind you, but a minor buff which can make it comparable to its counterpart blitz needle.

As it is functionally identical to the blitz needle with the added bonus of poison, what it trades in for this poison is a huge lack in offensive capability, mainly a (roughly) 33% decrease in damage.

Here are some numbers, each level of gun damage penalty/bonus = 7%.

My own plague needle(level 9) does about slightly over a hundred with each charged needle in D27 to a trojan. This is when I equip my crown of the fallen so when I add back that 14% damage loss it rounds up to about 120.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJ3ab8JZEY&feature=related
At 13:27, it is visible that a max damage blitz needle is doing 260 per charged needle, which amounts to 260 /142 * 100 = 183 damage with 0 damage bonus.

A 63 damage difference per needle, about a 33% difference, amounting to almost 1000 damage difference in a charged shot is very significant indeed when trying to oneshot trojans in FSC.

Suggestion: Increase the current damage output of plague needle such that it is less than blitz needle, but not by such a significant amount. Preferably about 15-20% less damage than blitz only, so that the poison it causes can allow for roughly equal damage. Already poison does not occur all the time, so even then the plague will be doing less damage than the blitz on average.

It should be more comparable to the blitz as it is so difficult to get the plague as a PvP reward already. In fact, I don't even know why they are called rewards anymore since so many of the krogmo rewards suck in comparison to their counterparts. (HELLO TRIGLAV I'M LOOKING AT YOU)

Any suggestions are welcome,
Thanks!

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 08:48

Kentard

Hi again~

I'm really not sure what trinkets he owns in the video, though. Two Damage Med trinkets could really bump up Blitz's dps, and it's highly probable that he could have those given that he's using Nova and Blitz.

I digress though. According to wiki statistics for Blitz, it does an average of 215 per charged bullet to fiends and beasts, without any bonuses.

That being said, I was comparing some statistics between Blitz and Plague; apparently the former's charge shot does about 120 to Slags whereas the latter dishes out a mere 72-78. There is a pretty obvious rift in DPS, and the poison doesn't really account for anything.

Sure, maybe poison justifies a plunge in damage since it mitigates healing altogether; but 33% is surely a little too much.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 09:17

Luguiru

On an unrelated note

I want to know why Stone Tortoise, 4*, is bigger than its upgrade Omega Shell, 5*.

On a relevant note, I do not have a notepad to write these notes on; I must find one at an office supply store and headbutt the employees until their faces show the world map.

What do you mean that is not how to purchase something from a store? How would you do it?

See the post by Kent.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 17:06

Hexzyle

@Veacon

The issue here is not the plague needle's base damage, it's the poison damage.

Poison is in need of a buff, both to knights and monsters.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:17

Kentard

Nonetheless,

It is a bit ridiculous.
I've played FSC with Veacon before, and I can safely say that my Strike Needle easily outdamaged his Blight Needle back then.
Bit unclear about the actual statistics, but I'm estimating 99/60 (without any damage bonus/penalty) on charge hits to Slags.

Poison is in need of a buff, both to knights and monsters.
The main use of poison is to mitigate healing; that being said its secondary function is definitely underpowered - possibly there were concerns that the fall in defences were too high, and if you're swarmed and poisoned there really is little you can do once your shield is broken.

Nonetheless, there should be ample compensation for the fall in damage.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:16

Veacon

Triglav and Sudaraska share the same damage

Although if either of them traded status for 33% extra damage I'm pretty sure everyone would immediately change to using it.

@Hexzyle
By buffing poison, do you mean that it should deal damage as long as enemies are poisoned? It seems like a welcome change and fits the "poisoned" status in other games, like Pokemon.

Still, the damage difference is way too ridiculous. Even the volcanic pepperbox does the same damage and fire (almost) compensates for the lack in damage as compared to the blitz.
As a side note, does anyone know if a max damage plague needle can also OS a trojan?

PS In the video he has max damage, as seen in video description.
PPS Luguiru I have no idea what you just said.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:39

Toastnaut

@Veacon

I recently acquired a toxic needle with Fiend High with the express purpose of doing it up for support for other blitzers for FSC runs.

I only have it at 4* so far, but already with a high UV tagged on it doesn't even kill trojans in two charges in the back, if all shots hit. It is definitely a 1-shot kill in tier 2, but so is an unbuffed 4* flourish in their backs.

It's a very useful gun, while the damage is underwhelming, the utility of having poison that can be inflicted from a range safely is a good tradeoff. You wouldn't find me blitzing mechaknights, but in some levels I have been using the blight needle to poison them and let healers take care of em.

I agree it could use a bit of a buff, or poison could. Problem is, if poison got a buff, the VV would need a nerf very badly.
Probably would be better to just up the damage a bit on the poison needle guns, for how much work it is to get one (unless you are a habitual PVPer) they could use a little love.

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 22:34

Aplauses

=.=

Please note that the Poison is not just for blocking healing. But, it also decrease your attack by 3/4 and Your defence by 1/4 . So I think it is just same and fair. The Poison is really has effect 3 of our main knight status. So the plague needle doesn't need to buff. It is FAIR!

Sat, 04/21/2012 - 23:35

Kentard

@Aplauses:

Caps-locking 'fair' doesn't prove your point, mate.

But, it also decrease your attack by 3/4 and Your defence by 1/4.
Correction: it reduces attack power by approximently 1/3, not 3/4. This is according to wiki statistics; though if you can provide evidence of the contrary you're welcome to. So far I've also experienced an approximate 33% reduction in damage.

The Poison is really has effect 3 of our main knight status.
Yes, but to what extent? 1/4 defence, 1/3 attack and stopping healing isn't a very good tradeoff for 33% reduced damage.

As for PvP, this argument is irrelevant given that very few needles can land before the temporary invulnerability after taking damage sets in. If this was about the DVS, I'm inclined to support your argument, but this is about the Needle.

Primarily the Blitz Needle is a DPS weapon; no point arguing over that. Plague; not so much, but the utility from poison does make it more advantageous under certain situations.
That being said, since it is based off a DPS weapon, it should retain some aspect of DPS as well.

@Toastnaut:
Problem is, if poison got a buff, the VV would need a nerf very badly.
Hence buff the weapon's damage, not the poison.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 02:50

Veacon

@Aplauses This suggestion concerns the PVE part of the needles, not PVP. Very few people use needles in PvP anyway.

@Toastnaut I agree. The plague needle is an excellent utility weapon, even solo, that serves the function of spreading mass poison, just as its description says. I have no issue with taking it with me to the Royal Jelly Palace just so that I can spread massive poison and one shot wings (if I'm lucky and aim right)
Its real niche lies in the 2nd and 3rd waves of the party buttons in the wolver den levels which allow it to deal massive damage to the spawned wolvers and also stop their healing by the wings which spawn with them.

Its a bit strange, I distinctly remember being able to 2hko trojans with plague charges even with my fiend penalty but I have to test that again when I have time. I think it will serve well in Vanaduke to nerf the damage taken by Vanaduke. I am not too sure if shadow fire spawned by vanaduke takes a reduction in damage by poison though.

Off topic: I have this hypothesis that a team of plague + blitz can take down Vanaduke even faster if they water his balls (ha ha innuendo) and abuse the plague poison to ensure that they don't spawn back, or at least, not spawn back quicker. If in phase 5 he is ball-less (ha ha yet more innuendo) then more needles can hit him as opposed to all of them being blocked by his balls, increasing overall dps much more than just by inflicting poison.

On topic: Yes, I still think base damage of plague should be increased significantly.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 03:46

#10

Kentard

@Veacon:

Hmm. We could get a plague/blitz for Heroine and try it out. I have a feeling his balls will grow back too quickly though.

Its real niche lies in the 2nd and 3rd waves of the party buttons in the wolver den levels which allow it to deal massive damage to the spawned wolvers and also stop their healing by the wings which spawn with them.
Pretty much any poison weapon's niche lies in mitigating wings' healing. That and Gremlin Menders; personally I find it easier to one-shot Gremlins 'cos they're larger though. On the other hand I am using a Blitz.

I am not too sure if shadow fire spawned by vanaduke takes a reduction in damage by poison though.
Shadow fire should deal constant damage regardless of poison. It's an environmental object; technically it deals the same damage in the levels preceding Vana and during the Vana bossfight itself.

Very few people use needles in PvP anyway.
I've written a guide about gunning in PvP a long time ago; there's a section specifically for Needles. Not recommended since there is a very short time period of invulnerability after getting hit by anything once; you're better off with a one-hit, slow weapon than a fast weapon like Needles.

Although, you could consider the applications in PvP as well - whatever little there is.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 08:46

#11

Hexzyle

@Kentard

"We could get a plague/blitz for Herobrine and try it out"
He's scary enough WITHOUT guns

Sorry, that's all I saw when I read that XD

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 09:32

#12

Rangerwillx

Just as a note, in that video he has Ultra damage bonus, not max.
It was before deadshot was changed to med damage bonus.

Also, I do think Plague Needle is in need of a buff.

Sun, 04/22/2012 - 10:03

#13

Jmsa

It definatly needs a buff.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 01:12

#14

Veacon

Whoa

"Just as a note, in that video he has Ultra damage bonus, not max.
It was before deadshot was changed to med damage bonus."

Well this throws my calculation off a bit.
But if this is truly the case, then the difference between the base damage of the blitz and the plague is even larger.

Thanks for all the support guys! We need to give some underpowered weapons their chance to shine.

Next up, buffing iron slug and callahan

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 09:11

#15

Trollingyou

More support is here

Yes, plague needle needs a buff and the base damage is an issue. When the Blitz outclasses the plague's damage even with poison, then we know something is wrong. Doing less damage is OK, but being outclassed is not.

Maybe if I stop being lazy, I'll find some exact numbers. I thought someone already found them a while back.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 10:06

#16

Kentard

More test statistics.

Did a run with St-Leone today, here are some results:

Level 2 Blitz Needle in FSC (Depth 26-ish):
Charge Shot vs Trojans: 180 each with Gun Damage Med
Charge Shot vs Slags: 88 each with Gun Damage Med

Mind you, my weapon's at Level 2.

Comparing this with Veacon's Level 9 Plague Needle, there is a pretty obvious rift here.
i.e. This is ridiculous.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 10:26

#17

Fallconn

FALCON PUNCH!

1- because of this, the plague needle does poison right? well since it does poison, it'll increase the damage when you hit a poisoned enemy, and also increase someone else's damage as well

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 10:39

#18

Serell

I don't have those weapons,

I don't have those weapons, but looking at your statistics, the Plague Needle definitely needs a buff.

And next up iron slug and callahan? I don't know about the iron slug, but i love my callahan. Sure the callahan isn't as great on vana then the blitz, but i love using it with recon in LD. Blitz beats Callahan in PvE, and Callahan beats Blitz in PvP.

Oh well, maybe the Callahan does need a buff, though I'm pretty satisfied with the way it is now.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 12:13

#19

Tsubasa-No-Me

...

Volcanic Pepperbox too.

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:00

#20

Severage

...

You'd think that the more difficult weapon to get would be on the same level, if not better, than the Blitz.

According to some friends of mine, if you poison Vanaduke with a Plague and you have two Blitzers, 3 Blitz' do more damage.

Poison causes you to take more like 10% more damage...not sure why Plague has 33% less than Blitz.

The only up-side is that I like to use my Plague because I don't do Vanaduke with a shivermist. It can be useful when he does 1/2 his normal damage to you. DPS gap should be more around ~20% imo.

@Serell:

I'm almost 100% positive that Nick said the Iron Slug was going to be fixed in the future. Wish I knew where the link was, but I'm pretty sure I saw that in Arsenal before.

@Falcon:

Refer to my second sentence.

~Sev

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:03

#21

Serell

@Severage :

o.O
I said nothing about the Iron Slug.
I was just saying i don't know if it needs a buff or not.

P.S. Why you almost never post on the forums? D:
I luvvy your posts because you make complete sense of everything 3:

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:17

#22

Severage

@Serell:

lol, Didn't see that?

Most people who even relate to the Iron Slug complain about it needing a buff, I just assumed that's what you were getting to. Trust me the Callahan is far better.

It's similar to the Sudaruska pre-buff...only, it's a gun.

~Sev

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:41

#23

Serell

Aw.... I miss you q_q Well

Aw.... I miss you q_q
Well you better make a good game if you're ditching us all for it >.>

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:05

#24

Luguiru

Time for math

Assuming previous posts (Kent) are correct with their figures, the Plague line does 33% less damage but inflicts poison which reduces enemy defense by one fourth, prevents healing, and lowers the enemy damage output by one third. Also assuming the damage figures are correct (Blitz 120, Plague averagely 75) Blitz gives 1.6 times the damage output over Plague; assuming the 75 was not affected by the poison debuff, poisoning the target would result in the following:

(75 * 0.25) / 2 = 9.375 damage, which adds up to 84.375 per bullet, which is still far less than 120

Now, that missing 35.625 damage (assumed to be from a single bullet, and Autogun us known for rapid fire meaning this adds up with every bullet fired) which Blitz has, compare it to what else poison does: it reduces enemy damage output by a fourth and prevents healing.

On a different basis:

Blitz full charge (all bullets make contact) on a neutral target: 1815*
Plague full charge (all bullets make contact) on a neutral target: 1170*
Assuming the target was poisoned before any bullet made contact (the user fired a regular series which inflicted) and poison decreases enemy defense by a fourth, Plague would do 1462.5; then it prevents healing and decreases enemy attack. Due to enemy damage on knights not indicated with a numeric value the attack debuff is not identifiable and healing is situational; there must be something able to heal for this to be applicable.

* These figures are taken from the Wiki.

For normal bullets, Blitz has 1.422... times the damage of Plague accounting for the poison defense debuff and the charge attack for Blitz has 1.24 times as much damage as Plague, also accounting for the poison debuff.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:39

#25

Nova-Royal

The Royal is Absolute

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 17:50

#26

Toastnaut

To throw this into the mix:

When I was finding that my Blight Needle (NOT Plague, mine is still 4*) was not even killing trojans with two charges to the back, this was with at least two party members in FSC. I don't expect it to one-shot things in those conditions, I was just mentioning it because it was asked.

Solo, I'm certain that the 4* poison needle with fiend high or better will at worst kill trojans in two charges. In terms of being a good trojan killer, the Plague needle is alright. Overall it just does... a lot less damage than the obvious alternative.

A few things to add to be clear:
Speaking solely about using the Plague needle for Vana with other blitz users, the poison doesn't make your damage as high as a normal blitz, nor should it. The status more than makes up for the decrease in damage if you are using it to support other players who are also doing damage to enemies. Using vana as the obvious example, if a blitz user is doing 150+ damage times 15 shots, and gets a 10% damage buff from him being poisoned, that is a pretty fair trade-off for the damage the plague needle user isn't doing. You can multiply the bonus by two if you have a second blitz going as well.
In THAT regard, it's an incredibly useful weapon.
That said, you could reason that a lot of other underpowered weapons are quite good in the right circumstances. Looking at the weapon in terms of overall utility, it's a bit underwhelming, more so if you are playing solo or with less than three party members.

Regarding Vana's fire balls - Contrary to what the wiki says, poisoning him does not keep him from respawning them. I've tried that with the VV and with the Blight Needle and watched him respawn fireballs while poisoned numerous times.
Basically poisoning him just gives you the extra damage, and (presumably) weakens his attacks, though it doesn't amount to much because it's still fire, stun, and environmental effects that make that fight dangerous, not Vana's mace.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 20:34

#27

Trollingyou

Some numbaz

EDIT: brought both weapons to depth 24 for some better comparisons, here's what I got:

Using max gun damage on a zombie:

Blitz did 180 per shot with the charge
Plague did 107 per shot with the charge, 132 when poisoned

Same setup on a Trolljan:

Blitz did 246 damage per shot
Plague did 178 damage per shot without poison. Will have to test later with poison (Trolljan died in one charge sadly, I was alone), but I'm too tired right now.

With 15 shots the blitz does 1020 more damage than the plague needle without poison. That is a pretty big difference if you ask me.

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 23:48

#28

Fehzor

I want a plague needle so

I want a plague needle so that I can bring it with my blitz needle. Then I can just switch weapons. :]

But yes, buff it or buff poison. +1 on that regard.

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 02:06

#29

Veacon

The damage difference

IS TOO DAMN HIGH

With all the numbers I'm starting to guess that its not possible to OHKO a trojan in a 4 man party with a plague.
Man that sucks.

Vana's balls respawn even after being poisoned? Well that's something the wiki has to change I guess.

But with input from everyone I'm starting to feel like the plague needle is really a very underpowered option as compared to the blitz, and even more so taking into account the number of LD games I had to play to get it.

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 03:38

#30

Kentard

@Toastnut:

Speaking solely about using the Plague needle for Vana with other blitz users, the poison doesn't make your damage as high as a normal blitz, nor should it. The status more than makes up for the decrease in damage if you are using it to support other players who are also doing damage to enemies.
We established this consensus quite awhile ago. Question is, is the poison really worth a 33% difference in damage?

That said, you could reason that a lot of other underpowered weapons are quite good in the right circumstances. Looking at the weapon in terms of overall utility, it's a bit underwhelming, more so if you are playing solo or with less than three party members.
More often than not, the Plague Needle is a very niched weapon that excels at reducing the attack power of Vana and his minions (though I daresay not very much), or to mitigate the healing of Wings.

Simply put, I'm not for damage parity with the Blitz; if anything it should deal less damage. But 33% is a bit too much, don't you think?

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 16:30

#31

Toastnaut

@Kentard

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Just like above when you replied and it seemed like you thought you were saying something contradictory to what I was saying about not buffing poison because it would affect other weapons, but your suggestion was exactly what I'd said, essentially.

I'm saying that the weapon is pretty balanced, but it needs a bit of a damage buff.
Poison is good how it is, and the Plague needle should do a bit less damage than the Blitz, but it does too much less, in my opinion.
So while it looks like you think that you're arguing with what I posted, you're repeating what I said in a paraphrase. Not sure why my posts seem to cause so much confusion for some people. I know they're verbose, but they're not exactly complex...

On-topic with the general discussion:

As for one-shotting trojans, I don't think that the Plague needle should be able to in a full party. Even if ther WAS no plague needle, I think that it's not a good thing that the Blitz can in the first place. It's not a huge deal that there are one or maybe a few weapons that can do this, but a Trojan in a full party near the core should be a challenging enemy, not an obstacle that just requires a party to position a guy with ___ gun to open up when it spawns.
If Trojans got a health buff, I certainly wouldn't be complaining. Now obviously trojan health is a touch off topic, but my point put simply:
Basing the need for a weapon buff on the Plague Needle being able to kill a certain enemy in one hit is kind of lousy motivation.
I agree that it has far too much of a difference in damage compared to the Blitz (Especially in terms of charge damage, where it's a lot more than a 1/3 difference) but it shouldn't get so much of a buff that it's a super-weapon.

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 19:33

#32

Stane

Now if I remember right my

Now if I remember right my friends tell me that their blitz needle does 100 damage per shot against vana when charged. I own a level 10 plague needle and I can do 100 per shot only when my poison kicks in. I'm only hitting about 84 per shot without poison.

So basically having a plague needle is like being given a chance to do as much as a blitz if you just so happen to poison your enemy. It really is in need for some rebalancing.

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 21:07

#33

Trollingyou

@stane

What setup are your friends using vs. your setup? Cause my blitz does 216 on vana with max gun damage.

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 00:08

#34

Severage

@Stane:

"So basically having a plague needle is like being given a chance to do as much as a blitz if you just so happen to poison your enemy."

Um, no. Plague still does much less after poisoning. If it did just as much as Blitz after poisoning, it'd probably be overpowered...

It poisons like in two shots.

~Sev

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 06:50

#35

Veacon

@Trollingyou

I just noticed something very important about your damage numbers.

The plague needle does significantly less than the blitz needle when attacking enemies not weak to pierce.

I do not know if this is a bug or if you saw the numbers wrongly, but it should be fixed, and fast.

According to your numbers on a trojan, Blitz does 246, Plague does 178.

Hence the damage ratio is 246/178 = 1.38, meaning that the blitz does roughly 38% more damage on the trojan.

HOWEVER,

According to your numbers on a zombie, Blitz does 180, Plague does 107.

This means that the damage ratio of a blitz to a plague is 180/107 = 1.68, meaning that on a zombie the blitz does 1.68 times the damage the plague does.

I believe this is a bug and needs to be fixed, does anyone else have similar numbers to back this up?

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 11:05

#36

Hexzyle

@Veacon

This is not a bug, it's simply how the damage and defense mechanics work.

It's the same reason poison does really rubbish damage with some weapons.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 05:07

#37

Veacon

@Hexzyle

I'm sorry, I've never heard of this happening before.

Are you saying that the damage mechanism is inherently biased against weapons which can inflict poison? With the damage numbers that Trollingyou has listed, it seems like the plague needle sucks even more when attacking monsters who are neutral towards piercing, an even greater disincentive to have one at all.

I feel, strongly, that the damage difference done to pierce-neutral enemies should stay the same as the damage difference done to pierce-weak enemies and pierce-strong enemies, because, well, people do use their needles on slags and whatnot.

You also mention that poison does really rubbish damage with some weapons, which weapons are these?

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 06:43

#38

Zxze

-1

The pIague, in its charge, shoots 15 buIIets, each one having a chance to poison. That kinda makes poisoning sure if aII 15 go in.
One of the many reasons pIague is used at vanaduke.

If i wanna see a buff, its to the ap. Im sorry, pure eIementaI and dmg bonus just isint enough. bIitz overpowers it in a huge way.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 08:11

#39

Trollingyou

@Devil-Xtreme

Are you trolling my friend?

Blitz needle is a pierce DPS gun that immobilizes you,while the AP is a fast elemental DPS gun that does not. They are not comparable. If your talking about DPS on vana, or course the blitz wins out cause he's slightly weak to pierce. Also, the AP does not need a buff, it is very powerful now. Have you tried adding up the damage of a full clip? I've even seen some swordies complain on how strong it is.

Sure, plague can keep vana perma-poisoned, but while that is going on blitz will have killed him already. Would you rather have a dead vanaduke or a poisoned vanaduke? Same goes for other things like Trojans and Beasts, while plague needle will poisons them, blitz will have already killed them. A dead mob cannot hurt you, a poisoned one can.

As for my damage numbers, I am running the Trojan test again just to be sure that he wasn't poisoned. I am rather sure it wasn't though.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:42

#40

Serell

"The pIague, in its charge,

"The pIague, in its charge, shoots 15 buIIets, each one having a chance to poison. That kinda makes poisoning sure if aII 15 go in.
One of the many reasons pIague is used at vanaduke."

Actually, people only use it because they don't want to be like everyone else with a Blitz Needle. (That's what all my friends with a Plague Needle said)
Some people don't like to be like everyone else, even if that doesn't make them as effective.
Also, if you are really good at BN or LD, you can get the recipes a little bit cheaper.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:58

#41

Toastnaut

Urgh. Sorry for the wall of text...

So here goes. If you already are confident that you understand the game mechanics, just skip to the bottom...

Yeah, it does very significantly less damage against neutral monsters than the blitz, but that's not something that can be "fixed" on its own without changing how much damage it does or enemy defenses, it's not a bug even if it is an unintentional oversight.

The damage difference on normal attacks vs piercing-weak enemies isn't that much, but when it's compounded by charge attack damage, the difference is huge, and the same goes for neutral enemies.

As was described above, it's because of the game's damage mechanic.

It's not really different from how the Biohazard charge blasts are pretty good against things that are weak to shadow (169 for normal attack and 268 for charge at depth 28, which is about 1.6X for charging) but against neutral targets the ratio is way higher (88 for normal attack and 204 for charge - 2.13X damage on a charge!) Gran Faust has similar crazy ratios of normal attack vs charge on neutral enemies because it's a high damage weapon as well.
These things aren't a bug, it's just how the game calculates damage.
The rocket hammer does similar things in danger rooms against weak enemies. While other things will do far less damage against the stronger enemies that are buffed when they spawn in a danger room, the rocket hammer still does massive damage because it does loads of elemental damage plus a buff against enemies vulnerable to elemental damage.

Things having strong defenses or weak defenses against something isn't a linear calculation of dividing total max damage by a number. It seems to be more like a sort of threshold that figures out how much you BEAT the monster's defenses by before it adds a bonus for strong or neutral (or weak) damage.
Basically, since weapons never do 0 damage, and never do their ultimate max damage they would do against something with no defense at all, it works more like a bell curve for damage.
If a weapon's damage on a particular attack vs a monster's defenses against that damage are high enough, it does very effective damage, regardless of what colour/size the damage numbers come up at because of damage type. If it does still more damage than the basic minimum it would need to do effective damage, the numbers seem to go up quite a bit, but to a point. Basically, even if a monster is neutral to a damage type, if you do ENOUGH of that damage it still sort of acts like the monster is weak to that damage type even without the multiplier that you get for having a strong weapon.
UV's don't seem to affect this, as they ARE a linear ratio added to damage that seems to be added AFTER a weapon's damage is determined.

Consider each monster (except for drones and a few other exceptions, perhaps) has defenses like our knights against Normal, Shadow, Piercing, and Elemental. How the game mechanics seem to work is that when they are hit, the damage being done is compared to those defenses, and damage numbers pop out, then multipliers for damage bonuses and strong/neutral/weak damage vs enemy are added.
The damage doesn't seem to be a X minus Y calculation, though. It seems to act more like a sliding scale, where if you overcome something's defenses by a lot, MASSIVE damage gets through.
These defenses vary a bit by monster type and more importantly by depth and because of this mechanic, sometimes a weapon doing neutral damage can do TONS of damage at the right depth just because of how high that weapon's damage is.

In practical terms, what this means is that while most weapons do about 2X damage, or a bit less on a charge (though that is oversimplifying things,) some weapons against some enemies will do MUCH more than that because of how the increased damage from a charge acts at certain depths depending on enemy defenses. It also means that a damage bonus from armour or a UV won't make a weapon beat an enemies' defenses by more than it normally would, nor does the bonus from having a weapon that's strong against an enemy, since that just seems to multiply the damage done by a certain amount.
It also means that split normal/special damage weapons (like the brandish line) are very consistent and predictable, but weapons that deal very high pure damage (like the Blitz, Biohazard, and Rocket Hammer) or very high split damage (DA and GF) will sometimes do WAY more damage than you might expect for being neutral against something.

This mechanic is really most evident when dealing with danger rooms, where monsters have much higher defenses, or when comparing one weapon to a very similar weapon with very slightly different characteristics. The Blitz/Plague are one of the best examples of where this difference can be seen. (I don't know for sure, but I'd expect something similar comparing the Final Flourish and the Flamberge and Rigadoon lines.)

I know this is really complicated and long-winded, but what it means when looking at the plague/blitz is that the Blits DOES seem to overcome the threshold to do very effective damage against neutral monsters (and ones with a slight weakness, like vana) on a charge because of how high its damage is.
Meanwhile, the Plague needle's lower damage is just not enough to crest that hill, and it gets left in the dust.

This isn't a bug or a problem with poison. It's (most likely) an unintentional oversight for how the slightly reduced damage that the Plague Needle does because of the basic game mechanics.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 13:59

#42

Severage

@Devil-Xtreme:

o.o...

The AP shreds through Slags faster than a Blitz could ever hope to. It's my #1 favorite gun, definitely beating the Blitz/Plague. I use a plague for KoA only...an AP is good almost everywhere.

@Veacon:

The Plague is really contradictory to itself. It does more damage with poison...yet it has a damage nerf because it has poison.

The only reason I use a Plague is because I love to do Vanaduke runs without a Shivermist (Usually 2-man). The poison is good just in case you happen to get hit. Otherwise, I think Blitz is better in every way.

~Sev

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:26

#43

Hexzyle

@Veacon

Toastnaut's post covers how different defenses and damage is calculated. Some monsters poison will be effective, other places it will not.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:08

#44

Zxze

plague needle is kinda like

plague needle is kinda like one of the easiest way to poison vanaduke. In a 4 man party, if 3 people have blitz and 1 person has plague, he can keep poisoning vana and he will not only take more dmg, but his hits, if it hits a player, has a lesser chance of knocking his shield out.

Sure immobalisation is one of the major advantages of the AP as it does not immobalize you. What i meant was, it needing a buff for lockdown. right now, black hawk is the only good weapon which can deal good DPS in lockdown. ap is slowly draining away. YES, it is OP in FSC, but srsly guys? in lockdown lesser and lesser people are prefering it.

But im still gonna give this a -1 because poison guns poison. Asking them to deal damage and become equal to blitz is asking for more.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:13

#45

Serell

Ok... Then how do you suggest

Ok... Then how do you suggest we buff it to where its not UP in LD but not even more OP in FSC?
Also, AP is used in LD. More people use the Sentenza because less people have shadow defense, but AP is still good for anyone that's not a snarby.

Also, it has been proven you can deal more damage if all 4 people have a Bltiz Needle. Sure, you are making Vana's attacks a lil weaker, but his attacks aren't what kills ya. Its the dang shadow fire and slags.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 23:19

#46

Severage

@Devil:

Nobody said give it equal damage to Blitz. But it has 33% less damage. That's serious.

"Sure immobalisation is one of the major advantages of the AP as it does not immobalize you. What i meant was, it needing a buff for lockdown. right now, black hawk is the only good weapon which can deal good DPS in lockdown. ap is slowly draining away. YES, it is OP in FSC, but srsly guys? in lockdown lesser and lesser people are prefering it."

Black Hawk? You mean Sentenza. And no, Umbra Drivers are widely used by gunners for great DPS. Even Storm Drivers are used for their status.

Who cares about LD? You want to make the most uber gun for the final stages of the game more uber, just to make it powerful in LD? Out of your mind.

"plague needle is kinda like one of the easiest way to poison vanaduke. In a 4 man party, if 3 people have blitz and 1 person has plague, he can keep poisoning vana and he will not only take more dmg, but his hits, if it hits a player, has a lesser chance of knocking his shield out."

No...Venom Veiler is the easiest way to poison Vanaduke. And it keeps him posioned 24/7, unlike Plague which can only be used at the proper times without getting smashed in the face, due to immobility.

2 People with Blitz + 1 Plague < 3 Blitz'. 4 Blitzes do more damage, even with the poison debuff on Vanaduke. There's something really wrong here. It's a Lockdown item, which means it should at least be on-par with the Blitz, and 2 Blitz' + Plague doesn't do as much as 3 Blitz'.

Whether or not 3 Blitz + Plague is better than 4 Blitz, you could not possibly have 4 Blitzers. They'd get killed very quickly. The first round of slag guards would murder them. If you have 3 Blitz/Plague DPSers, the last person is almost ALWAYS a shivermist. Having 4 immobile DPSers is asking to get killed.

~Sev

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 06:17

#47

Veacon

I love walls of text

Really, it tells me so much about people.

@Toastnaut
Regarding your post about the biohazard, I went to test it out in RJP and it seems like its pretty obvious in its damage difference against shadow weak and non shadow weak monsters. Since its the way damage is calculated I guess its not too possible to increase this damage done to neutral monsters at all.

On the other hand, the biohazard has a really unique mechanic which is extremely fun to play with so I'm not complaining about anything. Huge explosions which inflict poison everywhere have been the best thing since brandish charge upgrades. The plague needle, however, having a counterpart which outclasses it in almost every way is very disappointing.

@Devil
Everyone else has said what there is to be said already. Please don't comment unless you have numbers, which everyone else does, sadly.

@ Sev
On a totally unrelated note, I have a volt driver with undead medium. Is that comparable to a no UV AP in FSC? It looks really fun and I own a blackhawk so I know the mechanics but I am not too sure how much carnage I can do with the AP.
" Shredding" through zombies sounds real fun.

On a related note, do you ever use the plague needle elsewhere?

I do hope OOO reads these threads often...

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 06:41

#48

Quotefanboy

While I see your points on the plagues

That gun is still relatively good. While I can see where you're getting at, and those numbers to crunch like nails in my mouth, I still believe the pepperbox is in more need of a buff.

While I'm not disagreeing on your statements, in fact I do agree, I'm simply going to say if the Volcanic Pepperbox doesn't get a buff, but the plague does, I'm going to rage. Hard.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 07:32

#49

Trollingyou

---

@Quotefanboy I do agree with you here (as many others would I imagine), though this is mainly focusing on the plague needle.

@Serell Did you mean vog?

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 08:25

#50

Serell

@Trollingyou

No, i believe vog gives normal/elemental defense, while snarby gives normal/shadow defense.
So Sentenza is good on skolver and vogs, and AP is good on skolver and snarby's :3

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