Spiral Knights - about those "Danger Missions" ...

about those "Danger Missions" ...

35 replies [Last post]

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 16:11

The-Rawrcake

More Missions and Levels to Explore!

New Missions and levels are on the way for everyone to experience. And for those that want a serious challenge, look out for the new 'Danger Missions' addition.
____________

It would be nice to know if this is another of those Shadow Lair type things. This is the last hope for there to be even a shred of a challenge in this game for PvE. Of course, not including Shadow Lairs for reasons below.

This game was not made to farm, which is why I liked playing this game. I could get on for an hour just to have fun, since I can't play this video game 24/7 (not that I would want to with any video game, that just sounds not fun at all). Even then, I maintained an elevator pass regardless of the little time played just so it felt less farm-y and devs need $$$ to develop.

Shadow Lairs require the farm. You can do the math, yeah yeah split it between 4 people and sell the material and... come on... I have better things to do than worry about wether or not I will be able to play the last challenging thing in this game. I can't just get on and play, it requires waiting (getting together the 4 people to split the cost, just the worst part of it all) or even worse, shelling out the money for the key by myself since nobody else is "up for it". NO THANKS.

So regular missions are extremely easy and everything keeps getting nerfed, then our weapons get buffed. Shadow Lairs are nice when you can do them, but it's just simply not fun and worth the time in the end (since there isn't a benefit to doing them once you have your costume / artifacts. It's made for fun from that point on).

SO if you skipped the boring parts of me explaining why I don't like shadow lairs and would never come back to this game unless this is implemented how it should be...

Will this be another Shadow Lair must-pay-every-freaking-time thing, or will it be like... an OCH mission that is ACTUALLY DIFFICULT?

This might seem like a dumb question but seriously I don't want to waste my time checking every now and then to see where this game is at -.-

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 17:25

Doctorspacebar

I hope it's the latter. I

I hope it's the latter. I really do think Shadow Lairs are more than a little ridiculous- not in difficulty, but in pricey-ness. Honestly, with the way the CE market is going, lowering the price would be a huge help. I went down the elevator in the Test Server recently, just to see if they'd let me in, because I wanted to try the SL so bad.

Of course, they didn't let me past the mist gate. Oh, the humanity. Devs, SLs are ridiculously expensive and I know there's a lot of crowns in them, but... take a look at CE prices. A decrease in cost would be much appreciated. And failing that, PLEASE don't make Danger Missions a Pay-Obscene-Amount-Of-Crowns-To-Play deal.

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 17:45

Eltia

Let's look at why Shadow Lairs fail

Not much can be said about the new "danger" missions since very few description are given. So until Nick tells us, it's all speculation.

But we can still look back to how Shadow Lairs fail, so the danger missions won't repeat these mistakes.

1. Accessibility. SL started with lottery Shadow Key from Locked Box (which requires a silver key that costs CE). After that, it went on sales from NPC for at least 1k CE each. (Prices fluctuated a bit, but it hovers from mid to high 1k CE.)

Why this fails. Lottery over lottery is bad. Charging over almost 2k CE for a key to a map that you can only play for around 90 minutes is too much.

What Danger Missions can do better. If it costs an disproportional amount of CE to access it, there better be something to justify the price. And that justification should go beyond pretty costumes (I'm referring to Almirian set) and peer recognition.

2. Incentives. The story about the Swarm and the origin of Cradle are nice. Lag is not, and same to lust-buster rewards. Almirian set is a nice costume and does explain why Almirian died out (they deserved the OH FIREEEEEEEE NOOOOOOOOOO). Other sets are mediocre (all except Snarby set don't seem to have a well defined role).

Why this fails. When people paid almost 500 CE per person to access SL and realized it lags and the rewards are not that great (some would say totally useless). You can't blame people for being disappointed. Compounding the lack of economical incentives (it's very hard to make money out of SL runs) and the fact that you have to spend even more CE to get the rewards (via crafting). The unpopularity of SL isn't unfounded.

What Danger Missions can do better. Nick and crews need to take a down to earth, no bs look at the value of these challenging contents. Does it take a ridiculous amount of time, CE or organization to access these contents. Are the rewards justified for the effort / hassles? Do they have replay values? Does it stimulate user driven economical activities (aside from people buying more and more accessories bundled with CE packages)?

One more thing. When you guys look at the cost to access Danger missions, please factor in "lags". Lags kill people and it won't matter how skillful or how many max UVs you have on your gears. (If you are thinking how meteo driving T-Rex to extinction, you are on the right track.)

3. Fun. It's very simple but very important. SL, overall, isn't fun. It has it's shining moment (like first time people reached Unknown Passage). But these shining moments wouldn't last long because of video sharing services. That's why FUN factor has to be there, so people who watched Youtube would want to actually experience it.

Why this fails. It's not fun, it feels like work. I will watch it on Youtube and forget.

What Danger Missions can do better. Make it fun (or at least look fun on Youtube), so people will ask their significant others, friends, relatives, guildmates, and their dogs, to experience them together.

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 18:46

Jaroche

This game was not made to

This game was not made to farm

95% of my friends all they do is play FSC, so yeah....

Anyway, I do hope 3 Rings doesn't go the the Shadow Liar or OCH route again, the former is expensive to farm/play and the later got nerfed on its rewards, there is no point on playing OCH over and over if everything is bound to your account (unlike FSC). They have the numbers on people playing the content, so i hope they make a proper decision this time.

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 18:53

Aumir

But, why?

Am I the only one who thinks Danger Missions will be just a really hard daily mission? Why do you think it will be so complicated? o_o

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 20:06

Realnight

Honestly I think it will just

Honestly I think it will just be Danger Rooms brought to the mission interface - because right now the only way to really get to danger rooms is through the arcade.

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 21:21

Capt-Chopper

I wish they had not changed

I wish they had not changed danger rooms, now they give so little reward no one wants to do them when I have the small opportunity to find one. They are actually challenging compared to everything else.

Fri, 05/18/2012 - 22:09

Rommil

p.s.

game is too easy..weapons keep getting buffed.

yes. and. yes.

But, i'll ask a few pointed questions, and make a pointed point.

Have you solo'd all the cool arena, mini-boss style missions? I mean, game is ever easier, but solo'ing the gauntlet is a challenge (at least until you get proficient at it. idk, i've tried a few times and failed)

Have you solo'd vana yet? (its hard at first, but easy after that. still a fun challenge!)

Have you solo'd jk and jk palace? (its easy, but its fun--the first time. Do it, advance to vana, then the mission where u fight the special trojan in stages, than the gauntlet).

So there are some little challenges to perk your own interest. i understand, this all kinda sucks as an answer, given we'd all rather play with friends, than go off and do our own thing all lonely like, b/c thats all the challenge that remains. but still, they are fun, challenging, and certainly things you should at least try, if not do, before you move on in life.

WEAPON BALANCES!!!!

Well, truth be told, i'm sure the game developers would love to do a total rebalance of weapons: as in--this weapon is too strong this not enough that too fast, this too slow, yadda yadda yadda. Ideally, they could dumb some down, smart some up, slow some down, speed some up, etc.....

But they can't. nor should they. thats relatively unfair. people paid hard earned high end CE for an item b/c of what it could do. Thus, we live in a world where its technically unfair to those who spent exhorbanently to gain that item. Rather than screw every single player with a vh asi GF or FF (even tho it'd be the easiest fix for various game components) they are better served to speed up ever subsequent weapon to bring them in line for what they were meant to be vs other weapons. Its just not right to create one world, where something is worth one thing, then after 100s buy that thing, change the world and make their investment bottom out.

This is why we see only buffs, and no nerfs, and rightfully (altho not logically) so. Dark retribution notwithstanding. Which is BS. too many knight spent millions and millions and millions of crowns to get vh ctr on such an amazing bomb.........only to see it made useless a month later.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 08:07

The-Rawrcake

If anyone was wondering what

If anyone was wondering what I meant by saying "this game is not about farming" because I don't think I was explaining this enough:

In one of the beginning trailers etc. it even says that this game is not a farm. The devs didn't intend this game to be about farming.

It isn't. I can jump into FSC right away and have fun, not worrying about costs or wether or not I will make enough in the end and think "oooooh, I have to do this a GABILLION times to get x"

We are given gear by the token. Tokens drop all the time, at least 3+. We are going to get gear eventually, there is no "chance" to get gear, and we can worry about things other than farming. We just have fun and stuff comes naturally :3

It's really a sweet part of this game, but sadly things keep getting buffed and nerfed for out benefit. I quit this game after the gun buff, and have been checking back every now and then to see what "difficult" thing was added to this game.

Shadow Lairs COMPLETELY goes against what the devs had intended. I would be MORE than glad to pay them x amount of $$$ to play the shadow lairs (because devs do in fact need $$$ to develop). Instead, it is a giant farm for everyone just to attempt one shadow lair.

If they were to add a "shadow lair pass", I have a feeling many players would have double their "subscription" including me :) and by this I mean keeping both an elevator + shadow lair pass active every month.

Just to clear things up if anyone didn't understand what I was saying, my fault for not being clear enough about the "this game is not for farming" thing.

EDIT: @Rommil

I completely agree with you.

Devs should keep every weapon and gun etc. in the state it is in (no nerfs, no buffs) and just focus on tweaking CONTENT to be more difficult.

Unless of course there is something like Iron Slug / Wild Hunting Blade, I am sure nobody would complain about those getting a buff.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 09:41

Canozo

I hope they are free because paying a shadow key just to get a real challenge, not worth it unless you are crafting something.

EDIT: @Rommil

True, true, since they buffed guns damage AND buffed its charge attack, Blitz is lame OP on vanaduke, I can solo vanaduke now in 1 minute or 2.

Last time I tried to solo a T3 Danger zone with gunner gear and my FF, easy stuff.

It would be nice if we had other good money sources other than Vanaduke (Wich is the only good one if you ask me), I hope this Danger Zones turn to be a good money source too.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 10:05

#10

Spectrumized

I'm excited for challenging

I'm excited for challenging PvE content, but all that excitement will quickly vanish into an obsolete pool of emptiness if it takes a one-time use item (CE, cr, materials, tokens, w/e).

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 15:43

#11

Nick

Developer

A few things to chew on: -

A few things to chew on:

- Danger Missions will cost the same as any other mission, there is no other up front cost save for the standard price of elevators.
- They will have a pretty clear risk/reward to them and are intended to be 'worth it' for skillful players.
- They will be clearly labeled as 'Dangerous' in the same way we try to do so with a Danger Room.
- Their challenge level are intended to be 'hard but fair' and not something a more casual player would otherwise seek out.

We've got a wealth of crazy ideas for where we can take this feature should we see a positive response. Our intention is to start out with a more limited spec and build out from there if there's enough interest. Obviously, this feature won't be for everyone, but if there is enough interest from the minority of players we are targeting with it, we'll make more.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:01

#12

Damienfoxy

WHOOOO!!!! Go nick! Any

WHOOOO!!!! Go nick!

Any projected release date? Like the next week or so?

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:04

#13

Tsubasa-No-Me

HAH

Don't ask for the release date, He already Said they're gonna do it, and they have Ideas...

I love these posts nick!

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:09

#14

Damienfoxy

Tuba, i will bite, don't test

Tuba, i will bite, don't test me.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:21

#15

Tsubasa-No-Me

And I will Smash.

Suda + CTR = Yes.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:26

#16

Psychodestroyer

....

/crosses fingers.

/Accidentally snaps one off.

...Crud.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:41

#17

Damienfoxy

I'll turn your suda into bits

I'll turn your suda into bits with my rocket hammer.

IT IS OOOOOOOONNNNN!!!!!

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 16:59

#18

Tsubasa-No-Me

So long...

So long as you don't Use the Noob Auto aim.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 17:00

#19

Atacii

Yes please.

Danger Missions. I want.

There's only so many times you can solo The Gauntlet.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 17:05

#20

Damienfoxy

I never touch autoaim!

I never touch autoaim! MWAHAHA-SILENCE!...we shall have... War...

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 17:10

#21

Rangerwillx

I doubt I'll get a response, but Nick, is the payout going to be better then boss levels?
Probably classified, but if not, I'm curious.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 18:28

#22

Doctorspacebar

Who needs Auto-Aim when

Who needs Auto-Aim when you've got RSS?

And Nick, thanks for clarifying. I'm glad I can get a really tough challenge.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 19:26

#23

Serell

Yay! Nick posted :D

Sounds great :3

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 19:33

#24

Spectrumized

Damn, now I'm excited

Damn, now I'm excited :\

Hopefully these really are hard, and thanks for the information. I'm sure if they are at least as difficult as some of the shadow lair rooms you'll get a large amount of positive feedback from the community that has cleared out the Shadow Lairs, and definitely those grinding FSC but can't afford the key prices.

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 19:35

#25

Toastnaut

I haven't even read the whole thread....

and I'm getting excited for this. XD

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 20:41

#26

Riicecake

Die.

Methinks that the Danger missions are suicide missions that have a 0.1% chance of succeeding

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 21:09

#27

Psychodestroyer

.....

The Japanese dub version sounded better, but this will have to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lnIrXDmK7c&feature=youtu.be&t=14m57s

Sat, 05/19/2012 - 22:24

#28

Spectrumized

@Riicecake

Considering the energy price will be extremely low, based on what Nick said, compared to Shadow Lairs, the low chance of success would just make it that much more fun. Besides, any special rewards this missions may or may not give wouldn't be obsolete within a few days after the patch.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 06:35

#29

Leafblader

moo

YES!
The test server is open again.
You know what that means:)

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 12:00

#30

Mickmane

I play for fun.

@Nick: Yay! Looking forward to it.

Concerning fun in the game...

I found I really like the ruined city missions/levels (the zombie/slime and the undead/fiend ones - Concret Jungle and Dark City?).

Maybe it's the atmosphere or the scenery.

Or maybe - it occurs to me just now - it's also the quick succession of stuff happening. I was never fond of the long stretches of empty corridors in normal clockwork.

Probably both. (Too bad these levels/missions don't even pay back the elevator cost.)

Also, the new arena levels in the missions. Nifty to see something new, but too easy to beat and they don't pay off. (8-1, Weight of Darkness, 3 levels, 1716cr?)

I'm not looking for riches (not by 'farming'), a couple of friends and I go to all sorts of missions just to see something different. It's just a downer to not even get the cost back from a t3 mission.

On a positive note, The Gauntlet is fun (and scary), and is worth it going there. :)

@Rommil: Going somewhere alone takes the fun out of it for me. It feels like labour just to get the cr. I don't farm, I play for fun.

I've done JK solo - that's what I made the skolver coat for in the first place, to be able to do him alone without dying all the time - and a few times helping underequipped new players so they could tick the mission. But now even JK isn't all that appealing anymore even with friends; seen him too often.

I've done Twins solo - biggest wohoo as I couldn't even play the switch levels before I got a new computer (old one was just laaaaaag there). I still like going to twins at the moment, with friends, to get better at doing the switches in the last level. That's fun.

I'm not even wondering about trying Vanaduke alone. I don't think I can do it, but the main reason that keeps me from trying is that fsc is too long to always be the same; seen it too often. I go there with the occasional special team/friends, slowly collecting tokens to complete ancient set (cashed in a couple of items a while back, but farming for cr and tokens would just feel like labour, not fun).

@The-Rawrcake: Um, no, I don't farm to go to shadowlair. I went there once to make the crown I wanted since before I knew it couldn't be made that easily, and was lucky in that a friend gifted me a key. He and an expert friend I asked for help did the rabid doggies while I was back to lying around dead (and scared out of my wits). I got my crown, yay! (With candle and blow out!)

I see no point at all to go there beyond getting certain equipment, losing at least 300ce for that (if I'd find a team of four I want to play with) would just take all fun out of it. I don't mind losing a little in doing t1 (to save fee going to t2, and then t3). In fact, just today a friend and I had a ton of fun going mad with hammer (including charge) doing the new gate t1 and t2. (I actually died in the haunted arena, and not for lack of pills - we were showered in them the entire t2 run.)

Summary; I play for fun. I like doing silly things like playing zombie ball (shield bumping anyone?) and going wild with the hammer where it isn't insta-kill. I like fun places to go and fight the monsters. I prefer not to lose too much ce while doing so, though.

(Data point: Gifted OCH notwithstanding, on my side of the keyboard I'm ftp. With a great big lot of respect for the ptp players, but knowing silly me has a point too - buying your ce. :) I also think you deserve to get an overblown price for it now and then, like right now.)

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 15:03

#31

Ranick

I rather liked Kid Icarus:

I rather liked Kid Icarus: Uprising's way of determining difficulty and profit. Betting your money to raise or lower the difficulty (and likewise, the payout) just seemed to work well. I wonder how well it would work for SK? Pay crowns to breeze through, but negative profit in the process; bet a good sum to create a difficult challenge that rewards your bet, or be a crazy fool and blow the wad to be smothered with kaizo difficulty.

On second thought, really good players could wind up getting infinitely plentiful in the pocket, and that might be bad.

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 15:44

#32

The-Rawrcake

Okay sweet this is progress I

Okay sweet this is progress

I might seem a bit biased on the whole anti-shadow key thing as it ruins gameplay, so i'm 'a use mickmane's post

Wish me luck I hope I get the message across on the reason they're so hindering, this should help a lot

"Um, no, I don't farm to go to shadowlair. I went there once to make the crown I wanted since before I knew it couldn't be made that easily, and was lucky in that a friend gifted me a key. He and an expert friend I asked for help did the rabid doggies while I was back to lying around dead (and scared out of my wits). I got my crown, yay! (With candle and blow out!)"

So he wanted to go to the Shadow Lairs for one reason: to get a crown. Same deal with me, I just went for one reason: to get the echo stone.

My story is similar. Shadow Lairs are not about progression, in fact, the whole design just ruthlessly slaughters the idea of progression in a video game. We both didn't want to waste a ton of our CE to get what we wanted, so each of us got people with experience from the shadow lair already so we did not fail. This can make this even more of a hassle and even shut out the option of inviting certain people to the shadow lairs. Nobody wants to waste their money, which is why you will not (or hardly ever) hear someone going "LFM Shadow lair" in trade chat.

As he said, he was dead a lot. I died as well. This is normal, considering we were entirely new our first runs and had no goal of learning what was there since progression does not exist, only one different goal: getting what we wanted in the end so we didn't waste our time and CE.

To summarize: Shadow Lairs themselves might not be that difficult after you get the hang of it. The reason they are so difficult at first is because there is no progression because of the costs. You get in there, and you try and get something.

"I see no point at all to go there beyond getting certain equipment, losing at least 300ce for that (if I'd find a team of four I want to play with)"

Big things here: "no point at all to go there beyond ...." and "if I'd find a team of four I want to play with"

Then he mentioned some stuff about a hammer in which I am completely lost on

"Summary; I play for fun. I like doing silly things like playing zombie ball (shield bumping anyone?) and .............. I prefer not to lose too much ce while doing so, though.

He plays for fun. As he hinted, that would not be the Shadow Lairs.

Did he say because it is difficult? Did he say because it is "rehashed"? No. He said because of the cost, and earlier in his post, the hassle.

For those that have an organized way of doing Shadow Lairs (wether it be a certain active x amount of players or a guild), great, I am aware that there are many ways that you can get in there and have fun. For most, however, it IS a hassle.

Finally, for all of you "oh, OOO is using this to make money" people, they have other ways to make money. A shadow lair pass (with changed up crown payouts for SL) could possily end up making them more money than it costed to implement etc. Second, what is it that you "this makes OOO money + helps economy even if it makes this game less desirable" people play this game for? The economy? To play the dumbed-down, super-nerfed simple regular content which is giving you a good enough crown payout so you can make your character look stupid with non-matching expensive accessories? Jeez'm.

I hope that these danger missions are a good substitute for the mess of shadow lairs. Maybe I can consider this game fun soon. Maybe...

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 03:06

#33

Mickmane

About the Hammer (and some other points).

@The-Rawrcake

"Then he mentioned some stuff about a hammer in which I am completely lost on"

Warmaster Rocket Hammer, you get that from OCH (the expansion). A bit slow, and lands you all over the map with multiple hits and even worse with charge. (I guess it can be used effectively if you get the hang of it, I'm told it's great in lockdown.)

We, we were just silly charging the thing and laughing at what that got us. (By the time it hits, most monsters are somewhere else and you on the spikes. :) I can do that in t1 and some t2, or in graveyards, but elsewhere it'd just kill me.)

It's also useful in 2 player parties; double hit takes down turrets like they were porcellain, down to at least t2, and I think some t3 as well.

Sad bit about the 5* hammer; does more damage to undead in single hit than my Glacius Undead Med does in a single hit.

"He plays for fun. As he hinted, that would not be the Shadow Lairs."

If I got out the cost, I'd go there for the scary fun. :)

As it is, I just blow my ce on silver keys, in between upgrading/making something from the ever smaller list of equipment I want, that way at least I have a CHANCE of getting out more than it cost. (And a laugh at the maid headband.)

"make your character look stupid with non-matching expensive accessories"

If it makes the wearer happy, it's great, no matter what it is. Not your place to proclaim yourself judge and be mean, spoiling other's fun. That makes only you look bad.

Yay to individuality! :)

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 08:24

#34

Eltia

@Blitzwingoo

I guess a common criticism of SL is that it is reused contents (or the existing boss levels done right and repackage as new contents).

Surprisingly, I'm ok with reusing contents (well, they got to cut corners somewhere). I'm not ok with it when the contents have a disproportional risk / reward ratio, or lags can wipe out weeks of preparation within minutes. Let's face it, it's not fun and no sane person should buy this type of content under a free market model.

@Nick. I can see all the buzz words there. As I said in my earlier post, with the description given right now (including the latest information given in this thread), ultimately only you (and a handful of developers) know what exactly are going to be delivered and so everything else posted are at best speculation.

However, I like to take this opportunity to urge you and your team to rethink about what attract people to SK in the first place. Some of these values come to mind: cute (the April fool's GM forum is a good one), free, fun, refreshing and "it is going to get better". But let's not forget some of the common criticism of SK as well: lack of new contents, 100 CE costs 9001 CR, Shadow Keys, Lags and Chris.

I know it's easy to say "Users first" but hard to do. But really, what SK needs now is go back to that "Users first" root, make it fun, make it cute, make it into a hub to meet different kinds of people.

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 14:54

#35

Leafblader

moo

Make a danger mission with Jelly Green Giants.

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about those "Danger Missions" ...