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The nitty-gritty of "Make SK a game again" aka "monsters need to be just a bit harder"

24 replies [Last post]
Wed, 05/23/2012 - 14:08
Thimol's picture
Thimol

As some people might recall, I basically whined about how SK had lost most of its appeal as a game because the monsters being nerfed screwed the difficulty over.

I'm not going to ask for Touhou or anything, but I do expect that the game have something that at least tries to be a challenge.

That said, I think the following changes go without saying:
-Zombie/retrode swipe attacks should be sped up
-Retrode beam attack should take a bit less time to explode
-Retrode HP needs to return to normal
-Wolvers (maybe Alpha Wolvers) should follow the direction of their target when they attack
-Gremlin Menders should be able to defend themselves somehow

There are also some other changes that I would like to suggest that aren't "necessary", but I think would add a nice touch:
-Since Gremlin Menders should be able to defend themselves, I think Silkwings should be buffed similarly, maybe with a status haze, or if not, then improve their healing capabilities because they suck at healing
-The old zombie lunge attack seemed a bit iffy, but was interesting. I'd like to see that improved.
-Bring Gun Puppies up to par with Howlitzers and Polyps somehow
-Gremlin Scorchers should be able to walk in real time, not in slow-mo
-I had made a thread once suggesting that Chromalisks should be buffed, where regular Chromalisks got an additional elemental loogie attack that could stun, and the status-themed Chromalisks got an additional piercing tongue attack.

Discuss please?

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 14:18
#1
Niichi's picture
Niichi
~

No real complaints about most of the stuff you raised and I agree that a few monster buffs here and there would be nice, if only because the gap in difficulty between fighting fiends and fighting any other monster group is huge. I do, however, have a few thing to mention.

Regarding the attacks of Wolvers, it definitely needs to be done in a manner where they don't teleport and attack instantly. That used to be so annoying. But other than that some tracking during an attack wouldn't hurt.

Gremlin menders is the one thing I completely disagree with. They do their jobs pretty damn well in tier 3. AoE healing and resurrecting fallen gremlins is pretty big stuff. They also already have some form of defence in that shield they throw up. They're one of the only non-fiend monsters in the game that I honestly think are fine as they are.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 14:36
#2
Schattentag's picture
Schattentag
Regarding Menders...

Are you referring to the occasional chain of batting/swinging their wands at Knights? I haven't had that happen to me in a long time, but I don't remember reading anything about its removal...

Man, this Knight is gettin' old...

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 16:24
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
I think that gun puppies are

I think that gun puppies are fine in terms of difficulty, the rest I agree with. Especially the zombies. They were fine, and then they got changed for some reason. Now they knee you in the face... what?

This is pretty much exactly what I meant in my book (http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53465) when I wrote about monster balances, except that I think that devilites should receive a nerf. A small nerf.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 18:33
#4
Alpha-Stevo's picture
Alpha-Stevo
Wolver tracking should work

Wolver tracking should work in a way that will allow them to track like this:

http://gyazo.com/1af70b352f1ab970dfe5f20054dd9876

The Wolver will continue to attack if the Knight is within that 90 degree cone of vision. If they move out, the attack stops.

The graph is now a manta ray.

http://gyazo.com/3fdd8d1ce00f67c953780aa6592c8168

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 18:59
#5
Quotefanboy's picture
Quotefanboy
Why don't we add a difficulty mode.

Before you enter the elevator you get "Recruit, Veteran, Alpha" which is basically Easy normal and hard.

All of these can apply to anything, tier 1 2 or 3.
The benefit of doing Alpha over Recruit is the obvious more money and more heat for a trade-off of being more difficult.
Recruit would be exactly what it is now, maybe with a bit of a crown nerf as of what it is now.
Veteran is what is was BEFORE all of these nerfs happened, with a crown buff compared to what it is now
Finally, Alpha, which is basically doubling all of those buffs, but for a massive crown and heat upgrade. Also: The drop rate for vitapods and potions would nearly get cut into 25% out of what it is now.

2 cents applied.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:01
#6
Mzculet's picture
Mzculet
plz i beg you..

plz no i beg you we noobs are suffering enough >.< i think all sk needs are new monster

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:04
#7
Thimol's picture
Thimol
-----

plz no i beg you we noobs are suffering enough

No. You go and practice.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:14
#8
Quotefanboy's picture
Quotefanboy
This is why I said My idea.

Newer players can still play with weaker monsters and not get their butts handed to them so easily, such as we had to painfully go through. (It was still fun though.)

Yet if they want a challenge they can upgrade, and us older players not only get our challenge back, but a bit of a reward for doing so.

This also removes the "Going back on their word" idea that people have where if you take away something that was given, whos to say that won't happen everywhere else?

Now they wont have to remove the nerfs, and people who think that can keep their traps shut.
While people who want the challenge can get the challenge.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:18
#9
Thimol's picture
Thimol
-----

The problem with that is (could be) that the little mewlings will start to feel marginalized, and they'll ask for a boost in payout for the easier difficulties.

It sounds unbelievable, but look how far the nerfing of the monsters has gone (ok, ignore that, not a good analogue).

Also, I just feel a bit iffy about letting 99% of the playerbase breeze through everything and then calling everyone they come across a scrub. Not that I care for their opinion, but it does irk me.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:25
#10
Kive's picture
Kive
-1

the monsters were nerfed for a reason. Most of them got nerfed because they were unfairly hard ( alpha wolvers in particular ). Its not that OOO likes the game super easy but they want to make things fair. If you remember before retrodes health got cut they took a long time to kill. OOO would really reverse all these descisions they made to make the game more fair and accesible to rookies would just be a waste. OOO has made difficult things such a the shadow gates. Just wait until the danger rooms come out then bring back this forum if youre not satisfyed.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:31
#11
Quotefanboy's picture
Quotefanboy
Thing is

Don't get me wrong, people WILL complain, but that really doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Just because people will go my easy has less payout why not fix this doesn't mean it should be done.

Plus, define breeze through everything? You think people would breeze through Alpha so easily while getting all of the money in lightning speeds and laughing at people who can't?

When I said make Alpha hard, I mean like making everything harder then devilites are now. No warning on attack animations, attack animations are sped up, nearly no health or vitapod drops, plus monsters would have nearly double health.

You know how you said "I don't want to make it Touhou?" Well Alpha is Touhou difficulty.
If you can speed run through that without a problem, then good for you man.

Also: > OOO has made difficult things such a the shadow gates.
I wouldn't complain about that, if it didn't cost money to do.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:31
#12
Thimol's picture
Thimol
-----

Plus, define breeze through everything? You think people would breeze through Alpha so easily while getting all of the money in lightning speeds and laughing at people who can't?

I'm talking about the 99% who'd only play on the easiest difficulty.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 19:37
#13
Quotefanboy's picture
Quotefanboy
Well.

You're gonna get those kinds of people forever. If they want to brag about only beating it on Recruit, then put up a "Counter" of sorts on how many times they beat a gate on what difficulty.

If this guy in Cut my wrist Snarby beat Recruit calls you a "Scrub" and has beaten recruit 500 times, and you beat alpha 127 and Veteran 153 and Recruit 250 times, let him call you whatever he wants, he's obviously is too afraid to do anything challenging.

Only problem that may cause the "I beat alpha ten billion times I am da bes no one gonna get me down bes master race I am bes you scrubz olo ^//^" but at least it'll probably happen a lot less.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 20:01
#14
Draycos's picture
Draycos
This pretty much sums up all

This pretty much sums up all the complaints I have about weak enemies. If anything about the Devilites should be changed, just make them unable to attack for a second after receiving sword or gun damage (but not status or bomb damage).

I'd like to see the Ice Queen get some sort of buff as well; as of now it's probably the easiest boss in all of the Shadow Lairs. Like I mentioned in a past thread about monster balance, perhaps give it some sort of minor movement speed debuff mist? Not to the same degree as the Swarm Seeds do, but just a slight decrease, to make it a little less of a Jelly King recolor and something genuinely different, I don't know.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 20:15
#15
Zyborg's picture
Zyborg
@Quotefanboy I wouldn't mind

@Quotefanboy I wouldn't mind different difficulty options at all, but I'm not sure that higher difficulties should give out more money. Player selling prices and Crown->CE prices could end up rising a point where Alpha players could afford them, but Recruit (or possibly even Veteran) players could not without putting in a lot of work. This could cause a lot of new players to quit unless they immediately start at Veteran or Alpha (or buy energy). I guess whether that would happen or not depends on how much the pay increases for each difficulty level and how many people can succeed in Alpha reliably.

Wed, 05/23/2012 - 20:18
#16
Draycos's picture
Draycos
On the concept of higher

On the concept of higher difficulties leading to higher payouts, why not just increase the chances of finding unbound equipment and heavily increase heat payouts? That way, you take crowns out of the system by selling said equipment (if you put in on the Auction House), and get some indirect profit that has nothing to do with currency with heat?

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 05:17
#17
Quotefanboy's picture
Quotefanboy
-Clap. Clap. Clap.-

This guy man. Draycos knows his stuff.

Even if it was a massive heat overload I would do it, because we all know how annoying it is to level your items.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 09:20
#18
Luxuryknight's picture
Luxuryknight
Hmmm

Not sure about the Mender and zombie part. Mender can already do invulnerable orb around them when they're low in health(Plus some times they whack you with their wand D:). Zombie now have a new move, I call it:" The jumping in the air falcon kick move" So the zombie is pretty powerful now.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 09:30
#19
Draycos's picture
Draycos
Disagree. Menders are

Disagree. Menders are typically idle when using the shield, and I haven't been whacked by one since it was supposedly patched out.

Skellies' knees of justice jumps have a high startup; the only real harm is having them hit your shield twice. That being said, they NEED faster swings (but without bringing back the homing)- it's easier to get closer and make them use their old grandma slap because of how utterly open and harmless it makes them.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 09:36
#20
Niichi's picture
Niichi
~

Disagree. Menders are typically idle when using the shield, and I haven't been whacked by one since it was supposedly patched out.

They still heal when in their shield. It's just not quite as effective since there does appear to be a range cap on their healing spells and they can't move to within range until the shield shatters.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 09:40
#21
Draycos's picture
Draycos
Yes, they can still heal, but

Yes, they can still heal, but I've had situations where they pop it during their 'low health run away into spikes' AI and don't heal. Other times they've just sat there doing absolutely nothing... even when in healing range.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 11:03
#22
Niichi's picture
Niichi
~

Could be a case of luck then. I've never had an instance of a gremlin mender doing absolutely nothing inside its protective shield unless I'd literally killed anything else in range.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 11:20
#23
Schattentag's picture
Schattentag
@Niichi, Draycos

For what it's worth, I think I've had instances where all they do inside their shield is try to dodge guns, meaning no healing even if other things are around.

Thu, 05/24/2012 - 17:59
#24
Serell's picture
Serell
Zombies defintly need a buff.

FSC is usually hard for me.
Then I tried it on my brothers computer, which is waaaaaaaaay better then what I have.
I could easily predict and dodge the zombies, and didn't find it as difficult.
Its so easy to tell when they're going to lunge, and I usually just take a step to the right or left and just wait for them to come so I can smack them.
It would be great if it didn't take so long for them to jump.

I would like to be able to choose the difficulty, because the difficulty for players with lag or crappy computers is just fine.
I do not think they should give increased payouts.
But what Draycos said would be interesting, just having a rarer chance for items to drop from box's.

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