Fix Operation Crimson Hammer, or how not to fail with DLC (+general game difficulty/reward rants)

11 replies [Last post]
Heatsurge's picture
Heatsurge

Okay, so there's my rant:

I purchased the OCH DLC for the weapons and the novelty, sure, but also to actually have an alternative to doing Vana runs. I thought "oh, finally a tier 3 boss where I don't have to pay 450CE for an entrance (shadow lairs) and an alternative to the endless Vana runs in the game."

That didn't happen. Hardly anyone plays OCH nowadays consistently. Sure, "fun runs" happen, but not very often. You don't have to be a statistician to notice that out of the people on my friend list, 5+ are doing the Vana mission at any time of the day, and I notice an OCH run once every 3-4 days, if at all lately.

In general, I don't understand why the development team doesn't understand that content which is difficult or expensive won't be played unless there's an appropriate reward.

OCH takes longer (~1 hour as opposed to a ~40min Vana run), costs the same energy, and is arguably the same difficulty, or I would even say a little MORE difficult than FSC - the ninjas are a pain, and the arena with the machine and the constantly respawning small/large gremlins where you choose which ones to release can be tricky for some people.

So....... if OCH is at least the same if not more difficult than FSC, is on the same depth (24-28) as FSC.... why does it pay ~4000cr when FSC pays ~8000cr (+the 3 tokens which are 1k cr each guaranteed - buy armor for 30 sell to vendor for 30k cr)?

OCH should immediately be adjusted to pay a little more than 11000cr per run (or a little more than 8000cr per run + the mask fragments need to be tradable for 1k each to vendor). Nothing else "makes sense," period.

If there are future T3 bosses of the same difficulty as Vanaduke, I surely hope they will also pay according to the time/effort spent to beat them - otherwise there will just be more "dead" content like OCH is right now.

On a larger scale, the same pattern of thought should be applied to other areas of the game (i.e. fiends are INSANELY more difficult compared to jellies but jelly levels on average pay MUCH more than fiend levels? What??). Also, even T3 danger rooms generally aren't "worth it." I could go on and on.

I think instead of making the next useless accessory, someone on the development team should take a good look at some data, play the game, and observe which content is being played and which content is not being played - and make adjustments so all content of the game is viable and "makes economic sense" to play. A lot of people, me included, like playing "for fun" sometimes, but I also do look at profit intensely, so it really bugs me when I'm finishing difficult things to be paid less than someone who isn't (in crowns mostly, although heat needs to be adjusted too imo).

TL;DR. Nobody plays OCH, because it takes longer than Vana, and pays less than half of what Vana pays (tokens at 1k cr each considered). Fix it nao. I'd love to see 50% of the people in the game playing OCH, and the other 50% Vana. That would be the ideal split. I don't have data, but right now it feels like 99%/1%.

Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
"I purchased the OCH

"I purchased the OCH expansion mission pack for the weapons and the novelty, sure...."
Here i fixed it for you.

Heatsurge's picture
Heatsurge
It's unfortunate that they

It's unfortunate that they spent so much time on it, designing a couple of exclusive new enemies, only to have people play it 3 times and never again. Meanwhile, the n-th Vana run is being started.

I don't get it though. Was that really the intention of the DLC? To be played 3 times? I really don't believe how it would hurt them to adjust the crown payout to be on the same/slightly higher level as Vana. What's the drawback? People will run the most profitable run anyway, why not make this one competitive with it?

Softhead's picture
Softhead
"I don't get it though. Was

"I don't get it though. Was that really the intention of the Expansion?"

Fixed.

Xedma's picture
Xedma
>Nobody plays OCH

I play nothing BUT OCH now-a-days as a guide charging each person 175ce or 15k crowns. I've done 60 runs so far. I agree it should make more than FSC, but do NOT touch this place's difficulty! I LOVE the challenge of those lil' buggers! Those ghostmane stalkers are a joy to hunt down and fight! Almost everything has been dumbed down but gremlins (aside from menders) and I like my gremlins challenging! This game would be boring otherwise!

The only change I would willingly accept is a nerf to thwacker's spin-attack. That is OP as hell! Hardly any warning and deals more damage than most anything else.

Effrul's picture
Effrul
I think the difficulty is

I think the difficulty is pretty well-pitched, but the payout could certainly be better. I bought the expansion a couple of months back and have thus far done maybe five? Total? Successful runs, largely for want of a party (did T1 three times to get the mask for use as a costume item, T2 as warmup, T3 a couple of times to work towards the Perfect Mask), and I can only assume that this is down to the lack of repeat rewards.

"Repeat" is the important thing here. There are obviously weapon rewards, and the Mask is pretty good, but once you've got them there's simply no merit in replaying the mission. Three runs on each Tier and you've got everything there is to get; maybe there are some lunatics getting duplicate Masks so they can get Punch to put different UV sets on them, but come on.

Dando-Real-Ita's picture
Dando-Real-Ita
Actually, I guess vana is

Actually, I guess vana is preferred because you can fight a lot of eniemes at once.

I personally like to place a vortex in the zombies crowd, and unleash a suda charge in the middle. The 26th end is the best part.
I don't care about the payout, at all. So for example a simple payout switch won't change anything for me. And I know others who play for fun, not rewards.

There is no place in OCH where you can get the same "crowd"

It would be interesting instead some kind of last-stand game, where the number of enemies grows more and more, that would be funnier than any kind of new boss.

Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

I'd post something here, but all I can do is agree. I'm glad the cr pulls are still broken, though, because I still can't get.. that.. stupid... DLC....

For free, that is.

Edit: I'm not fixing this.

Softhead's picture
Softhead
"because I still can't get..

"because I still can't get.. that.. stupid... EXPANSION...."

FIXED.

Juances's picture
Juances
~

FSC is easier, everyone has acces to it and gives a lot of money.

But OCH is 'fine', in terms of rewards. This is the wrong side of the problem.
As if elevator passes arent enough, I dont want OOO to sell pay-only farmable gold mines.

Heatsurge's picture
Heatsurge
How is OCH "fine" in terms of

How is OCH "fine" in terms of rewards? Are you talking about the 3 initial runs? If so, maybe.

But after you've ran it three times and gotten the mask and weapons, it's not "fine" at all. It's a stupid waste of time and effort (economically speaking).

You spend the same energy, and MORE time than FSC and you get 4500-5000 crowns or whatever it is, instead of 8K crowns from a Vana run + 3 tokens, 1k CR guaranteed each = 11k cr total. That's NOT fine.

Being a "guide" is just ridiculous. I'm not going to look for noobs to take through OCH every time I play just to make enough as I do from FSC. That's just an insane idea to me. It should pay the same if not more than FSC by itself. There is no logical reason why it shouldn't. I'm not talking about a slight increase either, I'm talking about 11k cr clear minimum. Any lower number won't be enough to cause me or others to consider a choice between a FSC and OCH run.

Alternatively, they could decrease FSC runs to 1500-2000 cr, so with the 3 tokens which are 3000cr, it pays the same as OCH. That'd be a laugh.

In general, crown/heat payouts need some MAJOR/DRAMATIC rethinking in this game. There's FAR too many situations where difficult levels or rooms pay much less than easy levels or rooms. It makes zero sense and causes certain parts of the game to not be played at all. Why should I do a fiend stratum which is at least 2x more difficult than a jelly stratum which is 2x easier and pays more in heat/cr... This is something that's been bugging me since I started playing the game when it came to Steam.

Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

He's not suggesting it be a gold mine, he's suggesting it be competitive. These are completely different.