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A proposed attempt at 'fixing' the ce problem (Warning: Block of text and math ahead!)

20 replies [Last post]
Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:18
Morryn

So rather than make another ce complaint thread, I thought I'd try and propose a solution. Right now, there are 3 main issues/barriers that people are facing regarding ce:

1. T1 players are finding it impossible to advance without paying due to mist energy (and the high price of CE)
2. T2/T3 players are stuck grinding one mission if they want to profit and advance their gear (RJP, FSC)
3. There is not another crown sink, meaning inflation is causing CE prices to rise.

So my solution is this: make a secondary mist tank possible, both temporary and permanent. I know that it says that you can't have more than 100 mist energy on the wiki, but why wouldn't it be possible for more advanced knights to attach a secondary tank to collect mist?

These would be the temporary items:
Secondary Mist Tank (30 days): 400 CE (price subject to change)

Mist Energy Amplifier (7days): 375 CE (1.5x mist energy collected)

[Math ahead]
Given a 30 day period, a regular knight generates 3272.72 ME under ideal conditions ((30 days *24 hours)/ 22 hours)) * 100.
Using the Mist Energy Amplifier would allow the knight to generate 4909.1 ME, creating a difference of 1636.38 ME for the month. This also breaks down to 54.546 ME per day. Over the course of 7 days, this works out to 381.822 ME generated by the amplifier.
These conditions do not account for overflow (i.e. 110 ME cannot be stored without second mist tank= 10 ME lost).

To make things clearer: the normal 22 hour period to generate 100 energy can be generated in 14.6 hours, and within the span of 24 hours, assuming no overflow, a knight will have 160 ME to work with.

Addressing these problems by tier:

T1: Perhaps as an additional award upon completion of a certain mission (rank 1-something), offer the secondary mist tank as well as the amplifier. Suddenly, things are a little bit more manageable, especially for more casual players. If every mission takes ~30 ME to complete, suddenly instead of 3 missions a day, they're able to do 5. This means they are able to advance through the earlier (and less profitable) missions quicker. While gear may be somewhat of a stopgap, within that week an average player may be able to reach 5-2 (RJP), and if not, then they will have more energy to work with for a month. Also, this could be included in the pay starter pack ($19.95? last I checked.)

T2: While this may not offer much at first to T2 knights (given that they've probably already used the free items), what it does offer is the ability to craft. Assuming that they reach T2 sometime within the month limit of the secondary spiral tank (I don't know if this is possible, I haven't done that in a while), then they have several new options available to them:
1. Craft a 3* item for almost free every 44 hours (200 mist energy). Doing this for the main slots (helm, armor, shield, and weapon) means that you can gain 3* clearance in a little more than a week (176 hours/168 hours a week = 1.05 weeks)
2. (taken from http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/57164) Grind out more energy on RJP runs.
100Mist = 3 full RJP runs
3 full runs = 8100cr + 9 tokens
1 token = ~270cr
Mist used = 30 per run + 10 for possible revives = 100mist
Profit = 100CE + a small bit left over

While the profit margins remain the same (per 100 ME), the addition of the secondary mist tank means you can space out your RJP runs to avoid overflow. Less straight grinding = less tedious.
3. Doing a combination of both for 4* gear. By grinding RJP with 200 ME's worth of energy for ~200 CE, and then waiting for 200 ME, you can craft 1 piece of 4* gear, meaning that 4* certification is possible in 2.10 weeks.

T3: While ME might be a nice bonus for T3 people, what does it offer besides maybe a free revive now and then? Well, this is where the permanent solution comes into play. Make it possible to upgrade towards 200 ME permanently. This is my idea on how it might be implemented:

NPC: Tank.
Description: After examining the atmosphere in-depth, the mad genius Tank has discovered a way to pack armor with more mist energy goodness. But be warned, he might ask you for weird things. There's a reason he's mad, after all.

Tank will add capacity to your mist tank, but not for free: he asks for 40k (EDIT: I messed up, see below) crowns (price explained below) per +1 capacity, and may give additional bonuses if you can give him certain materials.

Why 40000 (EDIT: value is wrong) crowns? Well, it's an arbitrary number, but I calculated it based on the difference of the mist energy amplifier. Given that most T3 knights can (and would have) the mist energy amplifier, I simply multiplied the difference (1636.38) * 3, which gives ~5000 energy. Given the current prices as well, 5k energy works out to be 40 million crowns, or 400k per +1 capacity. While that number seems ridiculous, take one look at the bazaar and you can see things selling for 5-6 times that price right now.

T3 knights would then get the benefit of having double Mist Energy for crafting or runs, and perhaps an achievement or a special mask could become unlocked.

This is getting to be a bit long, but I'd also like to offer solutions to possible problems with this:
1. The 2-3* market would crash: This would probably be true, but this definitely helps new players. Gear for advancement would be cheaper, and therefore the curve for new players would be a lot easier. Also, this wouldn't happen overnight: after all, even with the additional capacity, the maximum per week of 'free' items is still fairly low: 5.72 for 3* items (2* items can already be 'farmed', sorta.)

2. This makes rushing to 5* so much easier: It's true, I did list possible advancements to 4* in a very short amount of time (3 weeks + however long 2* takes). But that's basically if the players don't play at all, and not taking into account missions, revives, etc. This hardly breaks the game.

3. T3 knights are going to become even richer! It's also true., But it'll take a little while. Taking the difference (1636.38) and doing nothing but FSC runs (with an average payout of 8k, not including mats/tokens) yields only 2,617,600 crowns per month. It'll take investments, crafting, UV hunting, etc. to actually make the difference.

[Math is gone, don't be afraid]

Tl;dr Add greater mist capacity, stop overflow, temporary and permanent options for T1, 2, and 3 knights.

*edit: Yeah sorry, I did this in parts and forgot to check my math. 5k ce is indeed 425k, but I meant to put 50k CE (or 4.25m). Again, it seems like a lot, but this is an end-game goal.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:25
#1
Xcelestialneon's picture
Xcelestialneon
...

:T

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:29
#2
Thefirstgamer's picture
Thefirstgamer
This could actually work out well.

Now, I've been wanting extra mist (Who HASN'T?) for quite a while, but couldn't figure out a way to implement it without ruining the game.

You, my fine sir, have calculated and written your way to glory.

This simply MUST be implemented, no questions asked.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:30
#3
Mczeno's picture
Mczeno
:l

Submit to suggestions please

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:42
#4
Spectrumized's picture
Spectrumized
+1

As much I as I really hate to make energy ratios lower, I like the mist amplifier. A lot.

The mist storage tank as a CE item, I'm not sure about. It wouldn't really help CE:CR ratios either. I prefer the mist tank upgrades with crowns much more as it provides a large crown sink. Not many, if any, would make ME crafting mules that each are dumped with 40mil to craft 3* items once a day. Actually, I don't see anyone buying

40,000,000cr [For the full upgrade] divided by 950 cr/hour [Rate of crown gain from 100 extra energy from full FSC grinding at around 10500 cr a run; tokens included] = 42105 hours or 1754 days of straight grinding FSC without any overflow of energy to break even with max ME tank. 1169 days with amplifier. Someone might want to check my math though... that doesn't seem right.

Maybe a reduction on that price to something that would make sense to buy? O_O

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:53
#5
Spaghetiman's picture
Spaghetiman

5k ce is about 425k cr, unless i missed something in your math, not 40mil cr.

~Spag

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 16:58
#6
Spectrumized's picture
Spectrumized
@Spaghetiman

Yeah, it seems like OP missed that CE:CR ratios in the market work per 100 energy. Judging by his results, I think he looked at CE being 1:8000.

I think a 50k crown fee per slot would be reasonable. Would take a few months minimum to break even. 5k energy seems a bit low.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 17:05
#7
Morryn
Sorry, my mistake.

Yeah, I messed up my math, did this in three parts and forgot to check things out. It's supposed to be 40k per +1 upgrade, for a total of 50k CE or 4.25m crowns.

Also, I put this in general instead of suggestions because it's a framework for now, but if someone wants to move it to suggestions it's fine.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 17:58
#8
Spectrumized's picture
Spectrumized
Alright, that sounds

Alright, that sounds better.
Still +1 overall.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 18:05
#9
Flaame's picture
Flaame
Yes. Simply yes. Doesn't mean

Yes.

Simply yes.

Doesn't mean Three Rings will implement it though. :(

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 19:37
#10
The-Rawrcake's picture
The-Rawrcake
Dear OP, this is not a

Dear OP, this is not a general discussion, it is a suggestion.

Move this to the suggestion forums so we can clear out these "CE issues" that apparently aren't apparent.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 20:15
#11
Biooborg
The-Rawrcake

Wasnt your little "inflation" plan also a SUGGESTION! So how about you move that post :P
Dont be a hypocrite!

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 17:27
#12
Addisond's picture
Addisond
Wut?

I don't think OOO intends to implement something that damages their profits. This seems it would be beneficial to everyone... except them.

Wed, 06/20/2012 - 18:55
#13
Zephyrgon's picture
Zephyrgon
Works

Unfortunately you're now working for OOO, so we'll never see this idea implemented. Sad truth about the suggestions forums.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 06:42
#14
Delardino's picture
Delardino
Didnt even dare to read that

Didnt even dare to read that math too many words and numbers -_-

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 09:07
#15
Valorai's picture
Valorai
Tagtag!

+1 to the second mist tank and mist amplifier.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 10:32
#16
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
one thing you might have missed.

can this be implemented with the elevator pass. if it can, you will have to recalculate your values because i do not want to recalculate all that math for you lol, XD.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 13:04
#17
Morryn
@addisond: The secondary mist

@addisond: The secondary mist tank doesn't damage their profits at all, it only fixes overflow (i.e. 110 ME = 100 ME), and I said it would be sold in the store for CE (= money, basically). Likewise, the mist amplifier would basically be charging 375 CE for 381.822 ME. So they lose 6.822 CE, but it's CE (something you have to buy) vs. ME (which is basically free). Not really that damaging.

@blandaxt: the elevator pass doesn't really work with this. I mean, with the elevator pass you don't really pay for floors: your ME goes towards revives and crafting basically. But including in one of the pay packages (like the starter kit) may boost sales as well.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 20:16
#18
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
oh!

so elevator passes do not go with the purchase. The reason i said to include the elevator pass variable is that the player would be able to craft more armor and affect the economy base on both tanks. so that would create some sort of effect. i haven't really calculated what kind of effect, but if this effect is not dangerous, then i'm all for this cool new idea you have.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 21:09
#19
Morryn
I addressed this part in the

I addressed this part in the 'problems' section: it might cause the 2* and 3* market to crash a little on AH, but it won't happen overnight.

In a week, without the mist energy amplifier: a knight normally generates 763.63 ME (168 hours a week/22 hours for full 100 ME) * 100.
This translates to 15.27 2* items (which is the same as now) or 3.81 3* items (which the secondary tank allows with 200 ME).

With the mist energy amplifier, a knight instead would get 1145.445 ME (763.63*1.5).
This translates to 22.9 2* items or 5.72 3* items

So this secondary tank would add between 3-6 3* items which were not available before, or an additional 7 2* items per knight. But I'll take this a bit further: let's use Dusker Cap's as the 3* item, which on average go for ~18k on market right now. Subtract from that the cost of the craft (1k even if the 200 energy is free), the cost of a wolver cap (1k), and miscellaneous auction fees. Let's say it works out to be 15k pure profit. Multiply that by 5 (for # of 3* items per week), and that's 75k a week on 3* stuff. That sounds amazing, but that's best case scenario. More likely, the price is going to go down, and it'll be closer to maybe 50k, which is nice, but that can be made through running as well. Also consider that you have most likely have to pay CE for the stuff, which can range anywhere from 400-775 CE, or 32k-62k, so it's hardly as dramatic as it seems.

So it'll cause the market to dip a little, but this only benefits players that hardly play (in which case it's a neutral situation: Three Rings is probably not going to make money off of them regardless) and people with elevator passes (which means Three Rings is making money). So while things may need to be balanced a little bit, it won't create an unfair and unprofitable situation: the only two cases where Three Rings loses money is if no one is playing (in which case, there are probably bigger priorities than this) or everyone buys elevator passes (and they make a decent chunk of change).

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 00:59
#20
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
hehe!

your right that would be a weird scenario seeing everyone buying elevator passes. sorry about not noticing you had already done the calculations. it seems like a great idea, i'm all for it. :D

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