Spiral Knights - Unorthodox ways to balance a number of items (Now with more ways than ever!)

Unorthodox ways to balance a number of items (Now with more ways than ever!)

35 replies [Last post]

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 03:02

Gametrekker

I am fascinated by balance in games. It's my opinion that quality of balance is a much more important factor in the overall qualify of a game than most people seem to think. So far, most of my experience studying balance has been with fighting games. I watched intently as Capcom balanced and rebalanced the Street Fighter IV games. Also I spent a year modding Super Smash Bros. Brawl to try my hand at balancing a game myself. I learned a lot from these experiences, the latter in particular.

Spiral Knights is my latest obsession; as of this writing, I've sunk 489 hours of gameplay (and $98) into it. I could write a paragraph extolling the game's virtues, but that's not what we're here for. This post contains the potential fixes I've come up with for the balance issues with a number of the items in Spiral Knights, as well as explanations of my reasoning. Most of these suggestions are simple yet pretty out-of-the-box; properly balancing a crappy weapon is usually not as straightforward as increasing the damage it deals. Also it may be important to note that I have not spent any time lurking on these forums, and that this is my first post, meaning that if any of my suggestions have already been put forth by other posters, I have not been aware of it.

I'm a big believer in Sean Malstrom's philosophy that the best game developers treat their games as not a product, but a service. I think OOO is doing a phenomenal job with this in a lot of ways. Yet I have to say I'm impatient to see what they come out with for refining item balance! So without further ado, here are my suggestions for what they should try...

all Plate helms and armors
Change Attack Speed Decreased to Movement Speed Decreased.
Why? It's one thing to use the staggeringly slow Troika line; it's another to wear armor that makes it even slower. Players who want to use a good Heavy loadout in Spiral Knights are pretty much out of luck because of this. But if the speed decrease is moved to walk speed, suddenly these armors become suitable to players who prefer slow and steady over fragile and agile. I'm not sure whether the Ancient Plate set should remain Attack Speed Decreased: Low and Movement Speed Decreased: Low or if it should be changed to Movement Speed Decreased: Medium. That set is harder to think about, what with some attacks now dealing pure piercing/elemental/shadow damage in T3. Actually the Spiral Plate Helm and Spiral Plate Mail lines are tricky to balance for this same reason, but at least the change I'm proposing should better tailor them to the player type they were designed for.

Big Angry Bomb
Drastically shorten its fuse.
Why? This bomb must have been meant to be joke weapon of sorts. But for me it missed So Bad It's Funny territory and ended up So Bad It's Terrible. I know it says on the Wiki to not post about it, but that's probably just to prevent people from complaining, and I really think my solution here would make it a much more interesting and viable weapon. (...still not great but at least viable.) When I say its fuse should be drastically shortened, I mean its fuse should be changed to be the shortest of all the bombs in the game. As it is now, it has the longest fuse, the longest charge time, the slowest walk speed, and a significantly smaller blast radius than the Nitronome. Are all those penalties worth it doing a bit more damage than the Nitronome? Not even close! With a very short fuse, the weapon suddenly has applications, the most obvious of which being that it can be used defensively, since it explodes soon after being planted and blasts all the enemies around it far away. This is very different from the Nitronome, which the player can walk around with and plant at ease. Currently the Big Angry Bomb is only useful for trolling. Making this change to it would retain that use (which one could say is important), while also giving it a worthwhile tactical use for players who care to master using it. Lastly I have to say it makes sense for it to have a short fuse, as that's one way of describing someone who has a temper!

Irontech Destroyer
Change its blast radius and charge time to match those of the Nitronome.
Why? Currently this bomb is basically the Big Angry Bomb except with a slightly shorter charge time, slightly less damage and slightly less knockback. So really it's just as bad. The changes proposed here are quite simple, and would result in the differences between it and the Nitronome being reduced to the following: higher damage, higher knockback, slower walk speed, and longer fuse. Does that just about balance it out? Well it does a much better job of it than those plus the extra penalties of a longer charge time and a smaller explosion. Unlike with the Big Angry Bomb, I'm not trying to turn the Irontech Destroyer into an entirely different beast here; I just want it to be a viable alternative to the Nitronome that some players might favor and some might not. Wasn't that originally the purpose of the weapon anyway?

Catalyzer line
Enable chain reaction on the charges (meaning that one detonated charge can set off others if they're caught in the explosion). In addition, greatly increase the animation speed of the charge attack. It might also be a good idea to increase the time it takes for charges orbiting enemies to disappear, but that might not make much of a difference.
Why? The Catalyzer line needs a lot of help. Its concept is really cool, but in practice its slow bullets mean successfully landing charge shots and then setting them off is difficult to the point of impracticality, especially when players can get much better results from other guns. However, rather than simply give it faster bullets (which would make it no longer match the Pulsar line), it would make more sense to just modify its charge attack to be easier to use. Think about how the changes listed above would apply to fighting a big group enemies. The faster firing animation for the charge attack would make it easier to fire without being vulnerable, and the chain reaction would mean the player would no longer have to put all their charges on one enemy to maximize damage. This means that, rather than trying to single out an enemy to add charges to and then detonate, which is excessively difficult when fighting a big group, the player could just fire at will and then set them off when ready. The gun would still be tricky to use in a team (unless other players are also using Catalyzer line guns, as they can set off each other's charges!), but at least with these changes it should be more viable for getting worthwhile DPS.

Magnus line
Change the player's walk speed while charging its charge attack to match that of most guns.
Why? Does anyone ever use this charge attack? I have a Callahan that I use a lot against devilites, and the only time I ever start charging it is before I get to a spot where enemies spawn. And even then it's rarely that helpful because its damage isn't great. These guns are good, but the extra movement penalty for charging them is really unnecessary and prevents their charge attack from being at all practical in a fight.

Iron Slug
Increase its stopping power (so as to make every bullet always interrupt enemy attacks and knock down enemies that can be knocked down). If that's not enough, slightly increase its damage to compensate for the fact that it doesn't inflict a status. (Yes, this is all addition to the proposed Magnus line buff.)
Why? I'll be honest: I don't actually know if Spiral Knights' current engine allows for the programmers to increase a weapon's stopping power. If it doesn't... maybe some amount of knockback (possibly a lot) should be added to this gun's bullets instead. The Iron Slug needs something special and fitting to differentiate it from the Callahan. Right now the only advantage it has over its piercing counterpart is that it does more damage to slimes and constructs. But the Valiance is generally a better option for both of those. With increased stopping power, though, the gun would suddenly have a unique use that's much more tactical than it simply doing extra damage to some enemies. It'd stop polyps' attacks! ...halt kats in their tracks! ...and knock zombies and gremlins flat on their backs! Seriously it has applications against every monster type (including saving other players when they're about to be hit), which should make it worth using.

Pulsar line
Decrease the stopping power of its expanded shots so it can no longer stunlock enemies.
Why? This is the only true nerf I'm going to talk about in this post, and I have to say this line deserves it. The Polaris is considered by many to be the best gun in the game, and I very much agree. It was difficult to come up with a good way to make it less overpowered, though. The first thing I thought of was to take away the significant damage increase its shots receive when they expand. But that wouldn't make it any less defensively overpowered; it would just take longer to kill the enemies it's keeping at bay. The next thing I thought of was to decrease the knockback on its expanded shots. But that would actually make it more noob-friendly, as then it would be easier to land consecutive shots. It was when I came up with the stopping power buff I'm proposing for the Iron Slug that I realized decreasing the Pulsar line's stopping power could be the best option available for making it take a bit more skill to use. The Polaris would probably still be the best gun in the game, but it would be slightly harder to use in a team environment, and wouldn't be as exploitable against certain monsters like kats and particularly turret enemies. Also Vanaduke; he has... problems dealing with a full team of Polaris users. One last thing worth considering for this line is to slightly decrease the damage of its elemental guns (assuming their displayed stats correctly show they do identical damage to the normal ones) to compensate for the fact that they can inflict shock. It's worth considering because there are far more Polaris users than Supernova users, which is the case because, apart from the decreased damage to beasts and gremlins (which both like to dodge the slow moving projectiles), Polaris better in every way.

Cautery Sword
Increase its base damage to match that of the Tempered Calibur. Also increase its damage bonus versus slimes to Maximum!.
Why? This is literally the only way to make it outperform the Nightblade against slimes (and even with these changes it would still be outperformed by the Silent Nightblade). The fact that the player either bought or alchemized a weapon that can't be upgraded past 3* should be penalty enough for using this sword. Right now, the sword is a trap for players who don't read the Wiki, and that's kind of awful. Wasn't it originally designed to help with the Royal Jelly Palace? It really needs to be changed so it actually does that. If it is insisted that these changes I'm proposing are too much, either its damage bonus can be increased to Maximum! without the base damage increase or its damage bonus can be increased to Ultra with it also receiving the base damage increase, as implementing either of those would improve it to be on par with the Nightblade against slimes (and admittedly better than the Nightblade against the silkwings that appear in the Royal Jelly Palace).

Other items I've been thinking about
Omega Shell: This shield is basically the Volcanic Plate Shield without status resistances, which means it's bad. I think it would be interesting if it were changed to have decent-but-not-great defense against all four damage types. Then it could be more of an all-purpose shield, a role that defensive items that only protect against normal damage can no longer fill properly in T3.
Dark Retribution: It needs a damage increase. Just a little one. Just five or maybe ten percent. Its damage is so pitiful right now. It doesn't have to be great like it was originally, but there's no reason to keep it from being worth using. Also it's worth mentioning that a friend of mine who plays Lockdown a lot says that that it would be much improved if the speed of its projectiles were increased to what it used to be, as that would make it much harder for opponents to run through the ring without taking damage.
Pepperbox and Toxic Needle lines: I'm sure more players would use them if their chances of inflicting a status were changed from Slight to Fair. I really doubt that would make them overpowered.
Silversix and Argent Peacemaker: Change them back to split piercing/elemental damage and increase their damage bonuses versus undead to Medium and High respectively. This will make them effective against fiends and Vanaduke again, which makes more sense than them doing extra damage to constructs, since they're supposed to be holy guns! Plus, the only piercing guns out there right now are all really slow and lock the player in place when firing, which are problems against devilites. Oh and I should mention that if these are changed back to split damage, the Blackhawk and the Sentenza should not follow suit, as they're much more useful the way they are now. The only problem with this change is that it goes against the concept of the twin guns: light and dark. Maybe this could be reconciled by making the dark guns deal split normal/shadow damage and increasing their damage bonuses like I've suggested for the light guns. Though this would constitute a bit of a nerf to the dark guns. It could also potentially be reconciled by not increasing the damage bonuses of the light guns, but then that would probably nerf them too much against undead. I may need to ponder this further.
Troika line: I have more to say about this line than any other. In fact I have so much to say about it, I'm going to make a separate post all about it later on in this thread. I just need to finish some damage comparison tests before I'll be ready to do the rest of my writing about it.

So that's that! I'm very interested in feedback about all this, and will answer any questions I receive. I want to learn as much as I can. Game design, particularly refinement, is the profession I'm intent on moving into, and it has been my passion since I was six years old!

I want to finish by saying that it would be so cool if this post is read by any developers responsible for balancing Spiral Knights' items. If you the reader are one of these developers, what I'd truly love would be to have a chance to speak with you myself. I don't know how possible this would be, and yet it would be an amazing learning opportunity for me, and I think that, with my forte for problem solving and thinking outside the box, I might have something to contribute.

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 05:08

Juances

Volcanic has lots of normal defense. Omega shell has lots of health.

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 10:18

Luguiru

Honk

Plate
Movement buffs are supposed to be a major bonus, counterbalanced in Ancient by its enormous health. The lack of specialized defense is assumably compensated by having over ten bars of normal, seeing as there is no visible end to its defense before the full ten bars. It could have twenty normal bars of defense for all we know. The same goes for Volcanic and Ironmight lines. Regardless, my take at this goes for party utility over freelance tactics which nearly everyone uses.

Big Angry and Irontech
Blast lines in general are supposed to be offense based through damage and/or knockback. Nitronome has more area coverage and speed in movement and charge time, though a little less damage than Big Angry and Irontech against a single target per bomb. Big Angry takes a different approach, giving up basically everything except damage and knockback for a little more damage per hit on a single target (blast radius is shorter, less area coverage to damage) and hilarious knockback to blast targets to Russia. The shorter radius and longer fuse time are to prevent abuse of the knockback. Apparently having a slight damage per hit advantage contributes rather than allowing more rapid assaults.

Catalyzer
Yes.

Magnus lines
Similar to Plate and Troika lines, Magnus is supposed to be tank-esque; solid, skull splitting smashes of squishing. Boolit shoot good. Magnus lines in general should have significant attack interruption.

Pulsar
Changing its clip to two shots would also contribute.

Cautery
Matching its damage to Calibur line may be pushing it seeing as it would have a massive family bonus, a bonus which is necessary for the weapon to stay consistent.

Omega
This shield is supposed to be the melee tanking shield. I also have something for this item though giving it multiple defenses would turn it into the ultimate general use shield.

Seerus bombs
They halved speed and damage when they nerfed these. The original speed caused significant lag if three or more of these were set at once, but giving some of its speed back would make it more useful again.

Plague and Pepperbox lines
Plague is more support reliant while Pepperbox depends entirely on strategic use.

Antigua lines
They are meant to be counterparts, not independent of each other.

Troika
This is probably getting predictable at this point.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 05:51

Kraanx

Catalyzer: i likie your idea,

Catalyzer: i likie your idea, may i add something i though up? bullets should be traded for pulsar ones in speed, i believe. it would make the gun a bit more usable.

and, no offense, plate lines having MSD would pretty much screw up troika charge attack movement, and would make the player too slow, moving like a rock and taking more time to run through levels, and might get kicked by an impatient team. i would go for a rebalance in dmg bonus, or a bigger hp bonus, and keeping ASD.

oh, and can you also put a link for your troika suggestion thread when you make it? itll be fun to do it all again.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 21:54

Gametrekker

Some replies!

Juances
I'm aware of this. Actually I probably should have said something about it in my post. I even HAVE an Omega Shell specifically because of this distinction. It was my first 5* shield because its health-over-defense made it more versatile than the Volcanic Plate Shield in T3. More specifically, I had been using Plate shields until I realized getting a Stone Tortoise would be a better investment than getting a Heavy Plate Shield. That being said, it was when I got a Grey Owlite Shield much later that I realized just how much better shields like it are than the Omega Shell when used in areas appropriate to what they defend against.

Luguiru
Okay, I took a look at your thread and you've done some excellent work. I'd like to talk with you outside of these forums. I've sent you a message in Spiral Knights with more details.

Kraanx
Catalyzer: Catalyzer and Pulsar line bullets are identical in speed, as far as I know. Or is that not what you were talking about? Thanks for the compliment, though.
Plate: MSD messes up Troika charge attack movement? I didn't know that. I'd test this, but I honestly don't have an Ancient Plate set yet! As for it making the player too slow... I have to say that's unlikely. Movement speed bonuses and penalties each alter the player's movement by about 4%, which I really doubt will be enough to cause any significant delay even if the player is wearing a full Ancient Plate set with its ASDs removed and MSDs both changed to medium.
Troika: I'll be making that post in this thread.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 22:53

Luguiru

Sniff

Considering I only log in to do a few quick floors or craft something, it would be far easier to communicate through the forums. We can still chat in game, but we would either have to meet by chance if we happen to be logged in at the same time or plan ahead. This sounds like the first time I asked someone on a date. Needless to say I was slapped. I have nothing against communication outside the forum but try not to get your hopes up for story time around the fire pit every day.

Yes, Catalyzer and Pulsar boolits both travel at the same speed. I have a Biohazard and Polaris to vouch for myself. Herp.

I have Ancient Plate to test whether the movement penalty interferes with Troika somehow. We can meet tomorrow some time to derp around the training hall or something.

If you would not mind having other users attend our campfire story time feel free to post a rendezvous time and place. It would not be the first time a few regulars show up for the barbeque. I can grill snipe burgers for everyone.

Tue, 07/17/2012 - 20:40

Gametrekker

TROIKA

Okay, it's been a few weeks but I'm finally back. Let's dive right into...

Balancing the Troika line

First let's look at why this line is bad. To illustrate this, I'm going to tell you the story of how I found out about its badness. I consider myself a bit of a Troika line specialty user; the vast majority of my playtime in Spiral Knights has been with a Troika line sword as Weapon 1, and I had a Level 10 Sudaruska before buying my first Sealed Sword.

So, those of you who know the differences between the two lines, what do you imagine happened when I first tried a Sealed Sword? Well the first thing I noticed was of course the speed difference. The Sealed Sword line is significantly faster than the Troika line, even though the speed bars in their stats appear identical. So I did some tests; there had to be a reason the Sealed Sword is faster.

Actually, to make a long story short, every aspect of the Sudaruska and Triglav is either equal or inferior to the Divine Avenger and Gran Faust.

So which are equal?
1: The first hits of their combos all do the same damage (against enemies they're neutral against).
2: Their charge attacks all do about the same amount of damage (again against enemies they're neutral against).
3: They all have the same hitbox sizes on the swings of their combos.
4: They all have the same knockback on the swings of their combos.

Then which are inferior?
1: The Troika line swords are significantly slower than the Sealed Sword line swords. I haven't been able to test exactly how much slower (I mean in a quantifiable way), but it's enough to make it practically suicidal to fight Darkfang Thwackers without using charge attacks almost exclusively.
2: The second hits of the Troika line swords' combos do LESS DAMAGE than the second hits of the Sealed Sword line swords' combos. To be specific, at Depth 24, the Sudaruska's second swing does 297 damage and the Divine Avenger's does 338 (both tested at Level 10 and against slimes).

So why? Why the obvious discrepancy? Well there is an explanation for the damage difference on the second hit: The Triglav can inflict Freeze with that hit, and the Sudaruska used to be able to inflict Stun with it, so they did lower damage to compensate. (Yes, the Faust and the Gran Faust can inflict Curse on the second hit, but their trade off is the chance of the player being inflicted with Curse if they use a charge attack.) As for the speed difference... from a gameplay standpoint, I have no idea.

But I don't think the speed should be changed, because from a realistic (so to speak) standpoint, the Troika line swords are considerably bigger and heavier.

What should be changed then? That is the question!

I could just give my singular suggestion regarding what OOO should try in order to balance the Troika line, but I think it would be best to give more detail than that. I have quite a lot to say about this line, and I think that, much like the Catalyzer line, it needs a lot of help. The possibilities below may all be needed in order to properly balance the line. Or maybe only one is needed. Balance is a tricky thing and the solutions are frequently counterintuitive. (An argument could be made for nerfing the Sealed Sword line instead, for instance, but I'll stick with buffs in this post.)

First possibility: The damage buff. Okay I'm saying this one first to get it out of the way. Everyone reading this who cares at all about the Troika line has probably thought of this solution. ...or partial solution depending on what one is trying to accomplish with it. The most obviously partial solution would be to buff the damage of the Troika line's second swing so that it's on par with that of the Sealed Sword line. The line would still be inferior due to its slowness, but at least its damage wouldn't be handicapped for no (good) reason. Yet maybe the first swing should get a damage buff too so that the sword's damage is buffed more overall. Currently the Sealed Sword line's second swing does about 15% more damage than the Troika line's, so perhaps both of the Troika line's swings should get a 15% damage increase. Like I said, this is a possibility, as in it might be a good idea.

Second possibility: The extra stopping power. To be specific, what I'm proposing here is to maximize the stopping power on both the second swing of the combo and the second hit of the charge attack. (Consult my first post in this thread for more information about stopping power.) While this is a smaller buff than the one above, it is, in my opinion, the most important one to include (assuming it's possible to program in). The buff has noteworthy defensive uses, but I say it's important because it prevents enemies from hitting the player due purely to bad luck. What do I mean? Well it's because of the status conditions of Freeze and Stun, though it affects them in different ways. For Freeze: If a player lands the second swing of the Triglav's combo against, say, a zombie that's winding up to attack, in most scenarios the zombie will be pushed away and its attack will miss. However, if the zombie is randomly frozen by the swing, it will remain stationary and its attack will hit the player. For Stun: If a player lands the Sudaruska's charge attack against, say, a lumber that's winding up to attack, in most scenarios the lumber will be pushed away and its attack will miss. However, if the lumber is randomly stunned by the second hit of the charge attack, the glitchy nature of Stun in Spiral Knights will cause the hitbox of its attack to come out before it moves, clobbering the player. But, neither of these scenarios are problematic on depths closer to the surface, specifically depths where the enemy's attack will be stopped by the hit that inflicts them with a status. The stopping power buff I'm proposing here will prevent it from being an unfair issue on any depth. In addition, it will allow OOO to reapply the chance of inflicting Stun to the second swings of the swords that can inflict it with their charge attacks, as Stun's glitchiness frequently causing players to get hit was the reason they removed it in the first place.

Third possibility: The bigger swing. Remember what I said about how, from one perspective, it makes sense for the Troika line to be slower than the Sealed Sword line, since its swords are literally much larger? Well, that largeness doesn't just apply to width; it applies to length as well. Yes, I think it might be a good idea for the hitboxes on the swords' combos to be increased in size. This is finally something that I could consider an interesting trade off for the slower speed. It would make the Troika line better for dealing with groups of enemies. Slow swords in Spiral Knights are already good at crowd control, but this buff would emphasize that aspect. This would differentiate the Troika line from the Sealed Sword line in a good way, providing a more useful incentive for players to use the line.

So those are the possibilities I see. As for what I think would probably be the best course of action, my suggestion is the following: Buff the damage of the combo's second swing so it matches that of the Sealed Sword line, maximize the stopping power of the combo's second swing and the charge attack's second hit, and increase the range of both of the combo's swings to some degree. Oh and reapply the chance of Stun to the combo's second swing on the Kamarin, Khorovod and Sudaruska (not the Troika because I like it when weapons improve a bit in a way other than damage when upgraded).

Alright, here's a big thank you to anyone who read all that! This post and my first post were written mostly just so I could get my ideas out there, but I definitely hope some people found them interesting. (If you've read this far, it must have kept your interest in some way.) Of course I will respond to any questions, concerns and/or recommendations anyone replies to this with. As for me posting anything beyond that, well, if I have any more ideas that I feel would be worth sharing in this format, I'll do so.

Tue, 07/17/2012 - 21:00

Nechrome

YES. As a user of both Troika

YES. As a user of both Troika lines and the Catalyzer, I have to see these are very good ideas for how to make them better. :3

Tue, 07/17/2012 - 21:52

Hmmnm

Great post...

Catalyser: In addition to chain reaction, the charges should explode after 20 sec instead of dissapearing. Why? The chan reaction helps rehitting enemies and setting off charges, but it will be very annoying keep track of when and which charge will dissapear.

Note: PvE soloers actually like using the Supernova over the Polaris because of a more reliable knickback.

There has been talk that Magnus charge attacks should pierce through multiple enemies and/or knickback.

Two more weapons that need rebalancing: Cutter and 5* Winmillion.
Cutters:
Regular combo: The third swing should have reliable stopping power (not counting ghost strikes). It is rather pointless to make a sword with 5 swing combo, if that combo is unusable without being hit.
Charge attack: Way too slow. I would suggest making the cutter charge attack be made of ghost swings, so that the knight can run away while the charge attack continues hitting the enemy. Alternatively, just make the animation half as long.
Dread venom striker's poison needs to be raised to fair. It is much too unreliable right now.

Note: You can edit your original post. The edit button is just inconveniently located at the top.

Tue, 07/17/2012 - 21:57

Hmmnm

Great post...

Note: PvE soloers actually like using the Supernova over the Polaris because of a more reliable knickback.

There has been talk that Magnus charge attacks should pierce through multiple enemies and/or knickback.

Two more weapons that need rebalancing: Cutter's charge attack and 5* Winmillion.

Note: You can edit your original post. The edit button is just inconveniently located at the top.

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 09:11

#10

Magnicth

All hail the infernal beast Vog!!!

Yes!I agree 100% with the catalyzer suggestion and definitely the troike suggestion. My poor triglav is always getting made fun of as a bad weapon,when it really isnt and has potential to be alot better,and the catalyzer idea would be very useful,since it can be a bit hard to set off charges in a huge mob.

~Magnicth the Dragon Mage

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 23:13

#11

Gametrekker

Stuff!

Catalyzer: The chain reaction would already make it less important to keep track of how much time is remaining before each charge wears off, as they can all be set off at once with some skill. The charges eventually exploding automatically instead of disappearing is an interesting idea, but it doesn't make sense, since the whole concept behind the Catalyzer line is that the primary shot and charge shot are two different chemicals that explode when combined. However, it might still be a good idea for a tagged enemy to be dealt minor damage when the charge wears off, probably 1.5 times the damage of a regular shot, since that's the multiplier Pulsar line shots receive when they expand. Either that or maybe the charges shouldn't wear off at all, since I don't actually see a reason for the inclusion of that drawback to the charge attack.

Magnus: Since talking with Luguiru in-game, it's become clear to me that all damage values for this line probably need retooling. And if that's the case, then the suggestions for buffing the line that I presented in my first post may not be appropriate. The possibility of the charge attack piercing through enemies... may have potential and may not; you have to keep in mind that multi-hit projectiles in Spiral Knights can all hit the same enemy multiple times, which can ruin the concept behind the "piercing" shot. An alternate possibility that I've thought of is for the charge shot to explode upon contact with an enemy. (Of course it would also explode upon hitting a wall, its flight path ending, etc.) I mean a huge explosion for a projectile, like with a radius of at least two tiles. That would certainly make it more useful!

Cutter: I can't comment on this line because, well, I don't use it! The only swords I'm good at using are the slow ones; all others make me sad (especially the Cautery Sword)! It doesn't matter if a line needs buffs; if I don't, from my own observations, understand why it needs buffs, I can't in good conscience work on a solution.

Spur: Yes, a 5* addition to this line needs to happen.

Edit button: Haha yeah I know about it. In fact I even used it to add the "(Troika update!)" to the title of the thread. I didn't put my thoughts on the Troika line in my original post because it would have made the post too long, and it's in a different format anyway so it's fine for it to be separate.

Thu, 07/19/2012 - 01:34

#12

Likal

Food for thought

Huzzah for another Sudaruska enthusiast!
Stupid question, but are you sure the Troika-line swords are slower than Sealed? My personal experience disagrees, but I haven't examined it in depth.
Also, if you're to rebalance the Troika-swords, I'd be interested in seeing their charge-attack damage compared to that of bombs, as I've found that the blade does a good bomb impression in crowded situations.

Thu, 07/19/2012 - 01:56

#13

Armyunit

@ the Catalyzer being hard to use.

The catalyzer isn't all that difficult to use, it just take lots of practice. I totally understand why you would say that though, since it plays so very different from any other gun in the game.

I agree with your chain reaction idea, that would be an interesting mechanic, and I think it would make the gun more viable in parties.
I'd rather not have the charge animation increased at all though. All charge attacks need some sort of drawback, and removing that drawback would essentially be turning on "easy mode". And we reeeeally don't need things any easier kthx.

Thu, 07/19/2012 - 02:09

#14

Asukalan

So... its that season again?

So... its that season again? Time for topics "Bufffza mah stuff and nerf stuffz of otherz but ya know its for the greater good, not for my personal gain"

Fri, 07/20/2012 - 10:02

#15

Doctorspacebar

SUNSHAAAAAAAAARDS

@Asu: Oh yes, those people who want Iron Slug to be boosted are all greedy noobs, and the Irontech Destroyer certainly is even with the Nitronome, and the Neutralizer CERTAINLY isn't inferior to every other normal-damage gun. And Winmillion? It should stay at 4* and anyone who disagrees is stupid.

(sarcasm off after this point)

Please, Asukalan. Get real. Some of these weapons really aren't very useful, and could use an addition or two. This guy gave more than "buffz mah stuff and nerf stuffz of otherz"- he actually suggested HOW they should do it, and the methods aren't even that game-breaking, they just give them an actual use that is apart from the other weapons of its damage type.

For example, let's look at the Normal-Damage Guns. Valiance for straight damage, Iron Slug for stopping power, Supernova for Knockback, or Neutralizer for trolling Menders (and, of course, for the sheer fun of it)? It's an actual decision should these fixes be implemented!

Fri, 07/20/2012 - 12:09

#16

Serell

oh wow...

Asu has said some really stupid stuff before, but man.... this is the wosrt.

You're very smart Gametrekker. You have some nifty ideas. I personally think giving the Suda a bigger swing would be the best for it. It is obviously bigger than the Sealed Sword line.

Fri, 07/20/2012 - 14:06

#17

Gametrekker

Due considerations!

Doctorspacebar, thanks for explaining that stuff so I didn't have to! Yeah, the reason buffs are warranted for some weapons is the same reason so few people use them: They're not as good. Still, to dispel any concern that I might be wanting to make things easier, let me state the following...
Wolvers should have shorter telegraphs for their attacks so players have to at least pay attention when fighting them; they're way too brain dead right now.
Zombies should have a faster walk speed so they have more potential for mobbing players; they're not intimidating, nor do they feel like zombies without that threat.
Scorchers should have more health so they aren't such pushovers compared to Thwackers.
(Disclaimer: These suggestions do not take into account the effects that these changes could have on danger missions.)
I could talk a lot more about this (and a bunch of other things that could be improved about SK despite how much I like it), but that would be getting off-topic.

Also... I think I should probably address some possible elephants in the room regarding two particular weapon lines.

What about the Troika line's charge attack? As problematic as the slower swing speed is on the Troika line (Likal: yes, it's definitely slower), I must admit I definitely prefer its charge attack to any of the ones on the Sealed Sword line. At Depth 24, it does 818 damage; eight hundred and eighteen normal damage in an explosion that can hit a whole bunch of enemies at once. This sort of damage instantly kills most enemies if you're adventuring solo, and on some depths even if you're not. (My record for simultaneous kills with it is nine, though that's not so surprising when you consider I do this every time I go through a Jelly Farm II because of that 3x3 square where jellies spawn.) It's also easier to use than, for instance, the Divine Avenger's charge attack because it starts with a lunge forward instead of a step back and creates an explosion instead of projectiles. The Divine Avenger's charge can actually do more damage because, again at Depth 24, the initial swing does 545 and the projectiles do 133 with each hit, but... you have to be close to the enemy during the long startup and you have to aim properly and even then its hitboxes aren't as good. Anyway, the Sudaruska's charge attack is the reason I still use the sword; I even find it more efficient for getting through Wolver Dens than the Dark Briar Barrage! However, this just isn't enough to make the weapon good, especially in the chaos that can ensue in full parties. And before I had any 5* shadow weapons, I had to rely on my Sudaruska's charge attack when fighting Darkfang Thwackers, which was a pretty frustrating experience because their movements aren't entirely predictable and could make the slow charge attack miss or glance off their shields. (Oh, one last thing to mention, responding to a concern from earlier in the thread: Movement Speed alterations have no effect on this charge attack.)

Don't make the Catalyzer line's charge attack overpowered! I want to say first here that most of the people who've posted in this thread so far seem to agree with my proposed changes for the Catalyzer line. That being said, this is an interesting concern. It's interesting because the Catalyzer line was designed around the concept of its primary and charge shots working in tandem. Armyunit, you say all it takes is practice? In a sense, that's true; it does take practice. However the problem is that the line doesn't reward that practice. Almost no players master these guns because there's no way for their DPS to measure up to other options. Even with the chain reaction, the charge attack remains risky to use because you have to position yourself and the enemies in such a way as to make sure the slow bullet lands, and it leaves you wide open while you fire. Right now, the risk-versus-reward is much too far in favor of never using the charge attack, defeating the point of the weapon; if you don't fire just right (which is made harder when you're fighting enemies that can dodge), you waste precious seconds and might even take damage. Even with the chain reaction, it may still take a lot of practice to make the line worth using, practice that could be better spent on weapons with more reliable DPS. Because of this, I think the risk (time usage and standing still) should be reduced by speeding up the charge attack animation in addition to the potential for reward being increased by the addition of the chain reaction. The line would still take some getting used to, and it could finally have the potential to reward the practice.

Did I need to say all that?! I don't know! I said I'd respond to any concerns, though, so at least I'm keeping my word!

Lastly, to everyone who has expressed support thus far, thank you! It means a lot to me.

Fri, 07/20/2012 - 15:21

#18

Trollingyou

Most of these are good suggestions

Plate Lines - Trading attack speed for movement speed decrease may not be the best idea. The armors as they are do not provide enough defense to warrant choosing them over other armors with the penalties unless whatever attacks you is dealing pure normal damage. Even then, the bonuses from the offensive armors far outweigh that normal defense bonus. What these armors need in my opinion is an overall defense boost and health boost, to make tanking with them possible.

Big Angry Bomb - Shortening the fuse time certainly would help, but it's design is made to be "slow but strong". As mentioned before, it needs to hit significantly hard enough to make the labor and patience worth it. It needs the have that "Big Angry Blast" to it.

Irontech Destroyer - This is actually good, but the charge time should be longer than Nitronomes. The fuse time won't lower DPS, it only makes it longer to start it, suggesting the bomber continually puts bombs down in succession after the first one. Once it starts, it'll out DPS the Nitronome every time without question. Although the increased risk via decreased movement speed may help balance it out some.

Catalyzer Lines - Yes, yes, and yes. It, however, may not help it's use in a party all that much because the main problem there is that the mobs die before you get a chance to set off your explosions. It has been suggested many, many times to have the explosions go off when the mob dies, so all that charging won't go to waste.

Magnus line - I like this idea, it doesn't make sense that this gun gets a drastic movement speed penalty on the gun when Blitz Needle does not. It needs more than this in my opinion though, as even the valiance can out damage this gun if used right. They said they are buffing this line though (albeit a good while back) so who knows what it will get.

Iron Slug - Should get both more stopping power and damage. It should hit mobs harder than a Callahan on neutral mobs, since the Callahan can stun.

Pulsar - No, this will make it easier to chain hits on people with it because people will just keep walking back into your shots. Keep in mind, it will still have it's knockback, and it's current downside vs other guns is that other guns out DPS it when used properly. A more proper nerf would simply be to reduce the size of the expanded shots, since they compare to some bombs in size when expanded.

Cautery Sword - This idea would not be a good idea unless family bonuses were made to stack separately from universal bonuses. Reason being is because while this sword will have much higher damage vs slimes, it would be capped and unable to increase under the current system. Nightblade, however, would simply be able to increase itself from no damage bonus and once again vastly outperform the Cautery Sword. My opinion is to have the family bonuses reworked.

Omega Shell - Sounds good, would certainly give it a purpose. Also would not be OP since it has no resistances.

Dark Retribution - From what I hear from other bombers around here is that the DR is fine as it is in PVE. However, it does need help in PVP, but speed will not help it due to the invincibility frames mechanic. If they were taken away, the bomb would be MUCH better in PVP (so would 90 percent of the weapons in the game).

Pepperbox/Poison Needle Lines - Certainly would help, but they would still pale in comparison to the Blitz Needle. The main issues that if you hit a mob enough to proc a status effect, chances are if you used the Blitz Needle instead the target would already be dead. So, if you can just kill the target, why even worry about status effects? A dead mob is better for the party than a burning mob who can still hurt you. My idea for the Pepperbox lines is to reduce (not remove) the knockback on the charge to allow for more hits and add the same small knockback to the normal shots in addition to the increased fire chance. This would make it a safer, more defensive alternative to the Blitz Needle. Plague Needle just needs to hit harder (still not as hard as Blitz Needle), or Poison needs to be reworked to be a better status effect.

AP/Silversix - No. They were changed for a reason. While I do agree they should be guns that slay evil things, going about it this way is not the answer. Before, it you were attacking anything other than undead or fiend you were dealing less than the weapons base damage. How to go about this though would be tough, cause giving it a fiend bonus instead of undead would make it OP. Maybe if family bonuses were reworked this would be possible.

Troika - Funny, I'm not the only one who mentioned increasing the range on the Troika lines. I do agree they need a buff to put hem in line with the Sealed Lines, any of these would be good from what I can see.

Fri, 07/20/2012 - 23:56

#19

Gametrekker

Oh man we got text wall dialogue going on now.

Plate: My biggest beef with these items is how they clash with weapons like the Troika line. Even if enemies still never dealt pure non-normal damage, I would personally still avoid all Plate items that aren't shields because the extra defense is just not worth their current penalty. It's not worth the lower DPS and the increased chance of getting hit due to slower attacks. They need to have really substantial extra defense to make them worth using with a Sudaruska, but then they'll be overpowered when paired with some other weapons (particularly bombs). Yes, their defenses need to be fixed, but I still favor a decrease to movement speed over attack speed. That way the player won't be able to dodge as well, and will have to rely more on shielding or even tanking. Bombs won't be overpowered because the player will move even slower while charging them. ACTUALLY... while writing this, I just realized something: The reason the items decrease attack speed is because the concept behind them is to trade offense for defense. But OOO went about it the wrong way (in my opinion); they should lower attack damage, not speed, to accomplish this. This way, slow sword lines will actually be good to use with Plate helms and armors, as they'll still do good damage and they have good knockback so they can be used defensively (which is important because Plate items focus on defense). Wow. So hooray I think I just figured out something big about these items! DISCUSS.

Big Angry Bomb: Hmm. The slow-but-strong aspect really is diminished by greatly shortening the fuse, I have to admit. But I still think it makes the most sense for the weapon! Maybe a different bomb should be introduced that's more of a slow-but-powerful type. Maybe the Irontech Bomb and Irontech Destroyer should be changed to be like that instead. These options are the ones that make the most sense, in my opinion, and create more diverse normal-damge bombing options. Speaking of Irontech, though...

Irontech Destroyer: "Once it starts, it'll out DPS the Nitronome every time without question." Well... hmm... Yeah, the walk speed was basically intended to balance this out, but that balance wouldn't just come from "increased risk." It would come from handicapped positioning when trying to use the bombs as quickly as possible, because the slower movement speed means the player can't walk nearly as far as they could with a Nitronome before placing the next bomb. Combine this with the bomb's extra knockback, and enemies won't be so easy to efficiently catch in explosions over and over. At least that's the theory. Also, heh, this is of course all assuming that this bomb and its little brother aren't going to be changed to be the heavy-duty normal-damage bombs as I talked about in the paragraph above.

Catalyzer line: Now that's an interesting idea. It doesn't quite make sense when it comes to the two-chemicals concept behind the guns, but the charges being set off upon enemy death would definitely help the line a lot. I wish I'd thought of that! Though the line would probably still need a little more than that one change to be good.

Magnus line: I've learned a lot more about this line since making my initial post in this thread, so much so that I'm considering adding a disclaimer about it to that post. The Iron Slug's badness shows that this line is flawed at a basic level; it needs more damage. The reason the charge attack has a slow walk speed attached to it is because that was supposed to balance its extra damage. Yet the extra damage isn't enough to warrant a penalty like that. But it should be! Also, I think the slower walk speed should be added to the Autogun line's charge attacks because there it is appropriate. (Specifically it was made appropriate by the universal gun buffs that happened a bit ago.) It should probably be kept on the Magnus line while its charge attack damage is changed to make it appropriate.

Iron Slug: I touched on this gun in the previous paragraph, but I'll add a couple things here. Yes, it should do a little more damage than the Callahan. And yes, I still like the stopping power buff, but I think it may be good to add to all Magnus line guns, not just this one.

Pulsar line: Okay... yeah... I'll be honest: I thought of the possibility of nerfing the hitbox on the explosion ages ago, but I didn't think it was a good idea because I wasn't sure how big the hitbox actually was, and I also didn't want to make the hitbox smaller than the visual blast. Well all I can say now is MY BAD to both those things, as I should have done my research before posting about the line and I should have realized that, well, OOO can make the expanded bullets and visual blasts smaller if they want to! WHOOPS. Yeah, I have to say your suggestion of making the expanded shots/explosions smaller is probably the best possible way to nerf this line. The charge shot staying the same size would also help differentiate it from the expanded regular shots.

Cautery Sword: Yeah... there has to be a better option. And maybe there is! Perhaps it would be best to change the sword from normal damage to split elemental-shadow, and keep the bonus to slimes as-is. That way it'll be super-effective against both constructs and slimes, the main population of the Royal Jelly Palace. And then its base damage could even be changed to match that of the other 3* Brandish line swords, as then it will still do less damage than the Tempered Calibur to all enemies that aren't constructs and slimes. How about that for a solution?

Omega Shell: Thanks.

Dark Retribution: Yeah, PvP is kind of... broken right now. So I'll just focus on PvE and say... well... it just seems to me like the player has to try overly hard to make the bomb good. I still think it could use maybe a ten percent damage buff.

Pepperbox and Poison Needle lines: I honestly don't have enough experience with Autogun line guns to determine if what you're suggesting here is a good idea. You did agree with my suggestion, though, so that's cool at least!

Silversix and Argent Peacemaker: When I wrote my first post, I actually didn't know that split non-normal damage meant doing less-than-base damage to enemies the weapon isn't super-effective against. I know, I know, I apologize for the research fail. This is all a learning process! But anyway... this new knowledge makes me realize a potentially perfect solution for balancing these guns with split damage: Increase their base damage! That way changing them to split damage could be not so much of a nerf compared to how they are now, as they could still do damages to undead and fiends that are relatively similar to what they do now to undead and constructs. If this works, it would also allow all family bonuses on Antigua line guns to stay the same, keeping the parallel between the light and dark guns intact.

Troika line: Yeah, get on this, OOO! (I mean get on it if you're not already on it!) Also please fix the displayed speed stats on slow swords. It was because these stats are identical on all of them that I didn't buy a Sealed Sword for so long.

Thanks very much for your awesome contribution to the thread, Trollingyou!

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 01:26

#20

Tsubasa-No-Me

I was using the Troika Charge before it was good. Lulz.

This is a good thread, and as a matter of fact, I simply love balance too. Though People seem to not think I do, or that I'm "Just some hipster". :\ Lucky me.

Responses! \o/

"Yes, Catalyzer and Pulsar boolits both travel at the same speed. I have a Biohazard and Polaris to vouch for myself. Herp." ~Lugu

Interesting, the Neutralizer gains more speed to it's boolets on reaching 5*

Also to note, Lug, That the DPS VS sealds is Outrageous. Not the damage per hit, but the amount of damage that can be dealt in a set amount of time.

" MSD messes up Troika charge attack movement?"

Err.... Not at all. I have Ancient Plate, and MSD does not affect the movement given by Swords. Neither does a Swarm seed. I think it has something to do with the movement actiing somewhat like knockback, if not BEING Aimed knockback its self. In that regard, ASI max WHB in Full plate lets you waltz through Seeds like there were not there. Ask Incoherrant, I've done it before :D

"On that troika Post"
Most of What I see is a good thing, in fact, the only thing I'm iffy about is the damage. I don't know why, it seems like if it's slower, it should be hitting harder. But if you increase the size of the hit box, say by about 10-15%, then I'd expect the damage to be increased by only a bit.

I ABSOLUTELY agree on the stopping power... though, from What I've tested, Stopping power comes from multiple sources, and some may be more effective on one weapon then another. For example, Damage easily lets most weapons interrupt more often when applied to most weapons, But less so when on fast weapons.

Where as Fast weapons, like My WHB, get more of a boost from ASI.

But one of the most interesting thing's Ive noted, is that while I am in Full ancient plate (In FSC as I'm writing this :P ) That I interrupt more often. I don't think that it is relating to the Total health that much, or else Vita's would be fought over more often.

It may be Due to either having a Large amount of Normal defense, or just a crap load of defense total. (Each Piece of Ancient has just a Little over 2x the max that can be shown) Or it might be because of the slower swing speed, or the movement speed. Sometimes I wish the dev's would come in and comment on what actually goes down. That'd make Balancing sooo much easier.

"Stupid question, but are you sure the Troika-line swords are slower than Sealed? My personal experience disagrees, but I haven't examined it in depth."

The answer is Yes. Lancer knight data suggests that it is about a 10% difference in speed. And combined with the damage difference, it comes out to about 19.2% (Or .7, I forget) more DAMAGE PER SECOND. (not just damage) That's harsh.

I have actually gone and Mathed it all out, But I'm too tired to find the Page... It's in there...

"On the BAB"

Well, It feels like it's suppodes to be a Hit and Run type weapon, but the slow walking speed kinda negates that... And Short fuse goes well with hit and run, as does a fast walk speed... so MAAAAYBE not the best Idea for it. I'd help if we knew what the heck it was supposed to be used for.

Maybe it should be a nuke.

"My idea for the Pepperbox lines is to reduce (not remove) the knockback on the charge to allow for more hits and add the same small knockback to the normal shots in addition to the increased fire chance."

Errrm, Let me say, that from a user of a Pepperbox, that would be Crap. There goes the Shotgunning, and the safety that you get from that knockback. Even if you hit with more of the shots, it'd still suck compered to a Blitz, or even a Plague. It needs to fire moar boolets (:3)

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 20:44

#21

Trollingyou

Text walls make better, stronger buildings

@Gametrekker

Plate Lines - This is actually an interesting idea. Speed in this game not only helps offensively but also defensively (probably more so defensively too), meaning losing speed means you loose out on both offense and defense. Damage, on the other hand, just helps with offense. However, even if this change were to occur they still would not see much use because of how much specialized damage there is past T1. I has massive normal defense, but it gives the same health bonuses as any other armor and the same amount of specialized defense as any other armor. In other words, Volcanic plate is no better against pure elemental attacks than Vog, Nameless, or any other armor with elemental defense. In fact, the Seerus Mask gives more elemental defense than the Volcanic Plate Helm (I mean, seerusly...). If the Plate lines are gonna have a penalty, they should have the defenses and health to make up for it.

AP/Silversix - This could indeed make it so they slay evil things and still deal appropriate damage. Will it actually happen is the question, as I doubt they'd undo a change that brought about good. Nonetheless, it is an excellent suggestion.

Catalyzer - The logic behind the idea was that if you successfully land a shot on something, damage should be done. However, in the case of catalyzer charges, if they stayed on the mobs while they died nothing would happen, meaning your successful shots brought about nothing but wasted time and effort. Yes, it does not completely match the description, but it would solve a much bigger problem.

@Tsubasa-No-Me

Pepperbox Line - My idea behind the knockback reduction/addition was not to make shotgunning impossible or safety moot. I envisioned it having about half the knockback it does now on the charge, because it fires so many shots. Mobs would still get pushed back from the sheer number of bullets it fires, and if more shots land that means more chances of fire. As for regular shots, it should be low enough to allow all the shots to land if fired when the mob is right in front of you. If not, they could simply have enough low enough knockback to simply keep a target from walking forward to you, but not enough to push them back too far.

As it stands right now, as I said before, if you land enough shots with a VP to light an enemy on fire chances are if you used the Blitz instead the target would have died. Remember, the VP competed fine with the Blitz before the patched the suction, when it could land most of it's shots, even if it was on a single target. It also performs excellently when it's up against large sized mobs, like lumbers and bosses, because it's possible to land more shots on them. As it is now you fire of a charge shot and the target is pushed out of range after only being hit 4-5 times. Why increase the number of bullets on a gun that can't even hit with the ones it currently fires?

Also, the Volcanic Pepperbox was the first 5* weapon ever I crafted, and it got a ton of use back when it had suction. I still use it often now, just because it's fun to use.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 20:35

#22

Realnight

I'd like to see the catalyzer

I'd like to see the catalyzer charge shot orbs explode upon expire (instead of just disappear). This would give the weapon much better kiting potential and overall make it worth using.

It'll probably still be much slower at killing things than anything else but at least it'll be the most entertaining way.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 21:52

#23

Gametrekker

More replies!

Tsubasa-No-Me

The Neutralizer's bullets are faster than the Biohazard's?! I must test that.

Wow, stopping power sure is confusing! Sounds like we really do need more data on it from OOO.

The reduced fuse time on the Big Angry Bomb is basically me trying to give it a use, as you may have already figured out. What you say is true: We don't really know right now what use the weapon was intended to have. Though even if it was supposed to be like a nuke, maybe its design should change.

Trollingyou

Plate - Oh definitely. I guess I should have clarified this in my last post. By no means do I think changing the Attack Speed Decreased to Attack Damage Penalty will fix these items. They also very much need changes to their defenses.

Silversix and Argent Peacemaker - All I can say is thanks!

Catalyzer line - This won't entirely work, though, since enemies can still be killed away from other enemies. Also it could be unpopular for other party members (unless of course they all use Catalyzer line guns) due to its potential for making things more chaotic. Perhaps a better idea would be for the orbiting charge to freeze in place if the enemy is killed, and then detonate if shot by a regular shot or caught in an explosion. This assumes chain reactions are enabled, but it seems pretty clear at this point that they should be. Would the charge attack animation still need to be shortened if both those buffs were put in? What about the possible extension to the time it takes for the charges to wear off? There seem to be quite a few possibilities for this weapon now and I'm not sure how many need to be implemented. I'd really like to see on the preview server what the weapon would be like with all the buffs listed in this paragraph: the charge that stays after death, the chain reaction, the shorter charge attack animation, and the charge never wearing off (though probably disappearing after a while of sitting there after the enemy dies).

Realnight

Honestly I don't see that idea contributing much to improving the line. The charges not wearing off in the first place would be more practical and less chaotic.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 22:48

#24

Autofire

Ah hah hah hah hah!

Ah hah hah hah hee hoo... I dunno why this is funny

Yes, a massive wall of dialogue. So much, in fact, that I read the first 10 posts about than skimmed the rest. Also, Army(my bro, btw), I think speeding up the charge a tad would still be safe. For one thing, though, I noticed that most guns tend to make no effect if the target moves as the bullet hits them. This causes large problems, especially for the slower guns. I think this is why the Polaris is so popular: the explosions can still hit moving targets flawlessly. If this glitch was fixed, guns would become more viable, and some of the ones in the black hole would become more powerful.

On the BAB, I was also thinking, how about if it cursed? Not saying it would be a shadow bomb, (although we DO need a shadow bomb that goes boom and doesn't just leave a vortex thing.) that could balance it some, and it would be a funny joke. It's angry, so of course it would shout at least ONE curse.

Lastly, did you work on any of the massive brawl hacks, such as Balanced Brawl?

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 17:38

#25

Gametrekker

SK is the new SSBB. (Well, no. It's more like the new Zelda.)

That "glitch" with guns isn't something I've really thought about because it's hard to tell if it's a glitch or if devilites (for instance) are just supposed to be invincible when they dodge.

The Big Angry Bomb having a chance of inflicting Curse would be hilarious and great!

Yes, I was the sole developer behind Unstoppabrawl (which definitely qualifies as massive, though isn't as well known). I'd link to it, but it was my first big foray into balancing and has a lot of problems. (It's easy to find via Google if you really want to see it.) Still I'd like to go back and finish it someday. Actually I would have already continued work on it, but unrelated technical issues and real life got in the way after the last update. Hopefully I'll be able to resurrect it... yeah, someday.

Tue, 07/24/2012 - 07:14

#26

Trollingyou

Gun "Glitch"

The "glitch" is not actually a glitch, it's a product of lag to the server. You see, what happens is your bullet hits the enemy while they are moving and on your side it appeared to successfully hit them. However, on the server the target moved from that location you're seeing him at already, so he's not really there. Because of the that, you hit the mob and nothing happens because in reality you didn't. The bullet's image vanishes because it hit the image of the monster, but in reality it's still there, you just cannot see it. Yes, this is probably one of the reasons why people like using the Polaris (though most do not know of this problem) in addition to the fact that it's best qualities do not come from damage, speed, or it's charge attack (meaning you don't have to use bonuses to make the gun shine).

Yes, it is a rather messed up way of hit detection. I have even proposed in the past of making the bullets faster for all guns, except a few special cases (Polaris being one of them, for obvious reasons), because if you used the Magnus line you'll quickly notice they do not suffer as much from this either.

Wed, 07/25/2012 - 15:20

#27

Gametrekker

Laaaaag

Huh. Oh? Is that what Autofire was talking about? Interesting. My connection is usually two-or-three bars, but this is something I rarely see, except involving opening gates. (I mean, the bullet disappears on my screen upon hitting the opening gate, but actually still exists and can hit enemies beyond it.)

Would modifying bullet speeds be appropriate for compensating for this? I personally doubt it, since it's a problem with how the game handles latency, not the balance between the guns.

Wed, 07/25/2012 - 18:32

#28

Trollingyou

Lag: The Troll of the Interwebs

I tend to have full bars and still experience this. Even those with the best connections can't escape from it.

My reasoning behind the bullet speed increase was that a faster bullet would be less affected by lag since it's, well, faster. Faster bullets hit things better since there is a smaller time frame to move out of the way, providing aim is right. Reason why i though some guns did not deserve this (*cough*Polaris*cough*) was because they work just fine in this environment as they are. It wasn't so much for balance, but more to help compensate for lag.

That is not to say it's better than your idea. Of course, improving how the game handles connection lag would be a much better choice and help not only gun's hit detection, but many other things that lag affects in this game.

Wed, 07/25/2012 - 19:29

#29

Phaseburst

I just had the perfect Idea

In addition to chain reaction and faster charging, maybe something to get the Neutralizer line equality w/ its cousin Polaris, so maybe Neutralizer bullets should slow the target down by 20% when hit for 3-5 seconds, charges should also slow the target down by 33% when in orbit, then 33% of 66%(22%) for the second charge and so on, Supernova also deserves something to match it up w/ its cousin Biohazard so maybe it should leave a damaging aura for like 4 seconds at where the bullet explodes, this will create diversity for all 4 guns in 2 lines

Supernova= Damaging after-effect
Neutralizer=Slowing shots/charges
Polaris=Shock/Elemental
Biohazard=Underestimated Poison/Shadow

Might not be the best idea for equal DPS but its true that some weapons depend on others to do its job properly eg; Electron Vortex and Graviton Vortex

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 13:20

#30

Gametrekker

Even more replies!

Tsubasa-No-Me

Neutralizer's bullets ARE faster than Biohazard's! Wow. Interesting.

Trollingyou

I wouldn't say it's really "my idea" to improve how the game handles latency. I'm not a programmer; I don't know what OOO could actually do to fix this problem. I still don't think the bullets (from most guns) should just be sped up, though, as that's basically buffing guns in a way that they don't actually need. Guns are already really good in Spiral Knights.

Toaster-Overload

Hmm... To be completely honest I'm not sure you understand what factors actually contribute to the imbalance between all these guns, as you didn't address them in your suggestions. There's been a long discussion about the Catalyzer line in this thread; did you read it? Also why are you saying these guns are cousins? Neutralizer and Polaris have completely different designs and uses, yet you say they're cousins that need to be balanced against each other. I don't see your reasoning. I mean, it's like saying all guns need knockback so they'll be balanced in comparison to swords. Sorry but that's not how balance works.

Biohazard's combination of poison and shadow is underestimated? Not in the slightest; that's one of the best things about the gun. It's just that its mechanics make it utterly impractical to use. Supernova needs to be buffed to match up with Biohazard? They're not supposed to match! And even if we were to compare their general usefulness, Supernova is better.

Sorry to shut you down like this. It just seems clear to me that you didn't do your research before posting your suggestions.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:37

#31

Firock

I like most of these ideas.

I don't actually use any of these items except for Supernova, but I have a friend with Triglav and another with Divine Avenger and even I can tell that the difference is ridiculous. Now, it did occur to me a while back that since the whole Sealed Sword line is a boss token line that theoretically it takes more effort to get and therefore in the end kinda makes sense to be better than the alternatives. But not that much better.

To touch a little on Toaster's post, I think he considers the Pulsar and Catalyzer lines to be "cousins" because they're both obtained via boss tokens from the same boss at the same cost. Plus they're both based around being a gun that causes explosions, just in different ways.

Now, I mentioned I have a Supernova and have used it a lot so I will also talk a little about your balance suggestion to it. Frankly, I don't think Supernova should have less stopping power; if anything, I think it should have more stopping power than Polaris. I understand Polaris being OP as hell, but Supernova has issues... I dunno, maybe it's just the way my friends and I play, but the way Supernova flings enemies around became a really, really big problem in our group. As in, we have a running joke now about the "flying lumber" scenario, where Supernova would fling a lumber into perfect hitting distance of one of my friends, and already be in the middle of its swinging animation when it got there, giving said friend less than half a second to block. (Dodging at that point was basically impossible.) And no, this wasn't some one-in-a-million scenario; this happened to us almost every single time we went up against lumbers and I had it.

As for this statement:
"It's worth considering because there are far more Polaris users than Supernova users, which is the case because, apart from the decreased damage to beasts and gremlins (which both like to dodge the slow moving projectiles), Polaris better in every way."

All I will say is that I've learned that a simple staggering of my aim with Supernova from one side to the other makes it really hard for enemies to dodge, since if done just right the explosion of the first shot will overlap with the second slightly, which will overlap with the third slightly. Meaning that even with its slow projectiles I've seen it do wonders against dodgy enemies. I've only seen T3 wolvers with their glitchy burrow-dodge reliably get away from it.

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 23:40

#32

Gametrekker

More Pulsar stuff

He didn't say those lines were cousins. He said specific weapons were. I can see the lines being cousins because they're both acquired using Bark Modules and have a number of similarities (such as initial visual design, clip size and bullet speed). But their uses are so different... Well I've already said everything else there is for me to say about this.

Anyway... Your running joke about the "flying Lumber"... It's part of why I wanted to reduce the Pulsar line's stopping power; it makes the guns more chaotic and therefore more of a liability unless used competently.

That being said, if this nerf were going to be implemented, I have to say you're probably right that it should only be applied to the elemental damage guns, not the normal damage ones. Actually I really like this suggestion; it's a clever way of making the Supernova comparatively better.

Now, I did approve of an alternative to this nerf later on in the thread, specifically the idea of making the expanded shots/explosions smaller. However, there was something I wasn't being mindful of when I wrote that post: The Polaris is actually considered to be underpowered by the best of the best players. For them, its DPS doesn't match up to other guns like the Nova Driver.

So currently it's overpowered for normal players and underpowered for highly skilled players. Things like this are notoriously difficult to balance. There are many possibilities for changing it. I'll have to get back to you on this one.

Thu, 08/02/2012 - 12:12

#33

Gametrekker

Another reply!

Yeah I've been rethinking my suggestion about the Omega Shell. I need data on exactly how much HP it has compared to other shields. When I made my initial suggestion, I hadn't realized how big of a difference there might actually be.

As for the Big Angry Bomb and Irontech Destroyer being updated... I'm still a bit concerned. I could be wrong about this, but the changes that were recently shown on the preview server smell like a quick fix to me. I hope OOO has more in store for these bombs, as removing one of their weaknesses and adding still-glitchy Stun is not going to make them worth using. Not remotely.

Thu, 08/02/2012 - 13:52

#34

Zeddy

For the Catalyzer line, I'd

For the Catalyzer line, I'd like to see one of two things be done:

-Let the charge attach to an enemy even if you hit their shield or at a shielded area of them
-Let the charge damage them even if the bullet is not hovering next to a weak spot or the enemy is shielding

Don't do both, obviously, but having to aim a bullet twice is just ridiculous. Right now there's just way too many complications using this shadow gun on gremlins.

I'd prefer the first one.

Thu, 08/02/2012 - 16:38

#35

Gametrekker

Catalyzing sure is popular.

Interesting thought! That would indeed help counteract some of the line's problems against enemies like Darkfang Thwackers.

This thread's list of possible ways to improve the Catalyzer line is getting extraordinarily long!

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Unorthodox ways to balance a number of items (Now with more ways than ever!)