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Speculation on Flourish

38 replies [Last post]
Fri, 04/29/2011 - 05:49
Splinter's picture
Splinter

"Lastly, you may want to especially get your hands on a nice Flourish as a little snipe told me that something is coming that should complement them nicely."

This alone intrigued me into grabbing myself up a flourish.

Currently wielding a Final Flourish (rushed to get this 5 star all day yesterday) to be exact, and its pretty amazing. gremlins and Beasts which had become my weak spot due to my use of the avenger, are now dropping like flies. For what it does, I've kinda fallen in love with this sword style.

This had me thinking what this message at the end of the update had to say, the little teaser. I for one have two thoughts, its either gear that is coming, new armor sets that compliment the rapier build. Or what I think more and more, new bosses, possibly gremlin, but what I have been hoping for more, is a giant wolver.

What does everyone else think, anyone have any insight into this snippet of what is to come?

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 06:05
#1
Splinter's picture
Splinter
And so the search begins...

Takes away a bit of the fun now doesn't it?

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 06:16
#2
Soulwax
Legacy Username
there is a lot hidden in the

there is a lot hidden in the game files.

PvP and Auction house are both in UI files.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 06:46
#3
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
I don't know how I feel about

I don't know how I feel about the next update, honestly.
Part of me understands what they're doing, but the other part is extremely annoyed.

It depends entirely on what they do with what they're planning.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 07:05
#4
Splinter's picture
Splinter
You've really started

You've really started something here Shoebox. Not quite my intention with this thread, but oh well. BTW I have a pretty good idea what that sentence has to do with now.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 07:14
#5
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
I swear to god if it's like a

I swear to god if it's like a monthly thing I'll quit right now.
There's a better way they could do this without punishing people.

Because there's no doubt in my mind that stuff is going to be bound.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 07:41
#6
Splinter's picture
Splinter
Monthly? Ok so maybe I'm not

Monthly?
Ok so maybe I'm not 100% sure anymore what is going on...

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 07:50
#7
zazabar
Legacy Username
Okay, now I'm curious. Can

Okay, now I'm curious. Can you give some kind of hint shoebox? Or maybe send me something offsite?

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 07:54
#8
Dilmun
Legacy Username
Heh, I thought Shoebox was

Heh, I thought Shoebox was referring to a certain weapon which raised my eyebrow.

Guess I'm missing something here.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 07:54
#9
jooozek
Legacy Username
I guess its the thing that

I guess its the thing that resolves around 995 and the keyword is timed.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 08:11
#10
Pupu
Legacy Username
Eh

I expect it to be just a better looking fencing armor.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 08:47
#11
Stardrinker
Legacy Username
Well, since this whole thread

Well, since this whole thread is about speculation...

We know that Flourishes all do pierce damage.
We all know that it's probably going to be a boss (because why build up hype over just a new type of normal trash mob).
We know that this boss is going to be weak to pierce damage.
There are only 2 types of enemies weak to piercing: Fiends and Beasts.

Current bosses:
Jelly King: Slime type.
Vanaduke: Fiend type.

So, purely speculation...

We are going to get a new boss.
It's going to be weak to piercing.
Only Beasts and Fiends are weak to piercing.
We already have a Fiend boss.

New boss will be a Beast type.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 08:52
#12
Alexandriea
Oh my..I don't know if I like

Oh my..I don't know if I like this new development.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 08:56
#13
AndroidHub
Legacy Username
nope.jpg

Sorry but Vanaduke is not a fiend, he is not in any of the enemy categories and takes neutral damage from all damage types.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 09:06
#14
Abhorsen55
Legacy Username
That's just not true.

Vanaduke is actually weak to piercing, as he is a fiend type. The new flourish weapons have the "super effective" damage text, meaning he is weak to it.

His mask is not.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 09:22
#15
Merethif's picture
Merethif
Gremlins

@Paska: I know it's a bit off topic, but there are Gremlins, not Goblins, in Cradle :-D

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 10:31
#16
Splinter's picture
Splinter
You know, I think I have been

You know, I think I have been saying Goblins all day today too, getting my G's mixed up. That kind of Friday.

On that note I have a question. I have noticed that Gremlin's are neutral to piercing, which is great. Except Menders, they have resistance to it...why is this so?

More on topic, I have heard this Vanaduke debate before, with a bunch of people fighting him, how has no one come up with a definitive answer / video on this?

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 10:41
#17
kakelgis
Legacy Username
Menders aren't resistant to

Menders aren't resistant to piercing; It simply displays that because of a bug. The actual damage they take from piercing is neutral.

As for Vanaduke: I have explained this myself on some other thread, forgot which... Maybe FossaFerox's thread about guns. But anyway, Vanaduke's body is only SLIGHTLY weak to piercing - He takes 20 damage more than normal from Final Flourish, and just 4 damage more from Blitz Needle. He's not a fiend, he has no actual "race". His mask/head appears to be slightly resistant to everything. Although that might also be a display bug - I never got to test exactly on his mask, or elemental/shadow damage. But I'm pretty sure about piercing.

I find it silly how everyone likes to say he's fiend, weak to piercing, blahblahblah without actually testing the damage to confirm that. Considering the damage bonus is so minimal, and his mask is actually resistant, it's better to just say he's neutral to everything.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 10:41
#18
Jalok's picture
Jalok
I tried out the Flourish 2* .

I tried out the Flourish 2* . I didn't really like it honestly. I would rather stick with my ol' trusty Winmillion.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 11:02
#19
FlashbackJon
Legacy Username
@Paska

Note the title: http://threepanelsoul.com/2011/04/11/on-ironclaw-menders/

So speculation includes:

  • New Piercing-vulnerable boss (Beast?)
  • New Flourish-related gear set (Fencing or "Rose"?)
  • PVP or duel-oriented mechanics

Good to know.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 12:21
#20
Stardrinker
Legacy Username
As for Vanaduke: I have
    As for Vanaduke: I have explained this myself on some other thread, forgot which... Maybe FossaFerox's thread about guns. But anyway, Vanaduke's body is only SLIGHTLY weak to piercing - He takes 20 damage more than normal from Final Flourish, and just 4 damage more from Blitz Needle. He's not a fiend, he has no actual "race". His mask/head appears to be slightly resistant to everything. Although that might also be a display bug - I never got to test exactly on his mask, or elemental/shadow damage. But I'm pretty sure about piercing.

    I find it silly how everyone likes to say he's fiend, weak to piercing, blahblahblah without actually testing the damage to confirm that. Considering the damage bonus is so minimal, and his mask is actually resistant, it's better to just say he's neutral to everything.

Based on that same logic, Jelly King isn't a slime either then.

FYI, Bosses have their strengths and weaknesses drastically reduced so that no weapon is very strong or very weak against them. Slimes are strong against piercing. Go to Jelly King using a Flourish, hit a normal jelly and look at the damage, then hit Jelly King and look at the damage. The number is gray for both but you hit for much more on Jelly King.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 12:35
#21
Abhorsen55
Legacy Username
In addition..

In addition, if you look at the story behind Vanaduke, he was once an aspiring duke ruling over his dukedom, when he was invaded by foreign powers. Driven mad by the loss of his people, he went into the mountains and eventually found a cave and gave himself to an old God of Fire in order to get revenge on those who invaded him.

Therefore, like devilites and trojans, he is more or less hellspawn, and is a fiend.
As Stardrinker pointed out, much like JK, he will have lowered resistances/weaknesses, but that does not mean he's not of the race that he is.

And he is slightly weaker to piercing "blahblahblah".

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 14:12
#22
kakelgis
Legacy Username
There aren't enough bosses

There aren't enough bosses currently to consider this a basic boss aspect. It's probably correct, although this does not relate to Vanaduke being a fiend; I think it's pretty obvious Royal Jelly is a slime. But Vanaduke has no actual indication of his race; His story is kind of inclined to fiend, although this would be just another random guess. Considering his stratum can be undead, his summons are always undead, and mobs in his levels are also undead, it'd make more sense if he was undead - Though I tested this myself and he is not undead.

Resistances and weaknesses aren't big enough to guess bosses' races; And besides, Vanaduke's body is only slightly weak to piercing, and has no resist to elemental or shadow (To be honest, I never actually tested elemental or shadow very well to know if there's a resistance or not; It's just a random guess from what I observe in the damage. But I'm completely sure elemental and shadow weapons deal the same damage) - if he was a fiend, he'd have some resist to shadow.

As for Jelly King: He is resistant to piercing, although not as much as normal mobs, yes. But on the trade, he's not weak to anything; Grab a DA and a GF for example. They will have the same damage output on JK, although normal slimes will be taking more from GF. (Normal ones, not the tiny ones... The mini jellos seem to be neutral, aswell)

For checking if they actually have a race, one would have to take a weapon or armor set with VS Slime for JK, or VS Fiend for Vanaduke. Although what I'm talking about is the resistances and weaknesses on attack types - Considering JK is only strong to piercing, and neutral to everything else, and Vanaduke is only slightly weak to piercing and neutral to the rest, it doens't seem their "race" behaves like races of normal mobs.

I've got an Ascended Calibur with a High Fiend UV myself; Great for testing this. I'll take it down with me for my next Vanaduke run, and actually confirm this instead of just speculating.

Edit: Just ran Vanaduke. I'm fairly sure that his body, at the least, is not fiend; I was dealing 102 damage or so to his body with a lv6 Ascended Calibur with High Fiend Bonus, while Zombies would take 122 from the very same weapon. It seems he's a bit resistant to normal aswell. Maybe his weakness to piercing is a normal one, but he simply takes less damage, like if he was considered a T4 mob or something. (If you notice - The bigger jellies on RJP take less damage than normal ones. Those are T3 jellies. Additionally, the Jelly King ends up taking the same damage as those big ones.)

I have no clue on his mask/head - I was dealing 142. The mask however, is resistant to piercing.

This requires a bit of further testing - Once I get a Leviathan at level 10, I'll be testing this with Magnus. But yeah, it's more likely that he is not fiend and simply has an unique race with a weakness to piercing, and a weird resistance table on his mask.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 14:33
#23
Ddog
One thing I have noticed

One thing I have noticed about Vanaduke which I find strange is that he seems to change his resistance on his last stage. I use a sentenza and a storm driver (yeah I know, too cheap to get an argent, not having any trouble with vanaduke now so why bother). On the first two body stages, he takes 76 damage from my sentenza, but on the 3rd body stage he takes 41 per hit. That's when I have to switch to my storm driver full time. The storm driver does the same damage each stage.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 15:11
#24
jooozek
Legacy Username
I see, 995 came to life.

I see, 995 came to life.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 15:17
#25
Glotz
Compliment Nicely

Guys. Are we sure they're not just referring to the new Rose Regalia costumes, which appear to look nice with the flourishes in their pics?

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 15:19
#26
Pupu
Legacy Username
Yay

I was right, what do I win?

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 22:03
#27
Stardrinker
Legacy Username
For checking if they actually
    For checking if they actually have a race, one would have to take a weapon or armor set with VS Slime for JK, or VS Fiend for Vanaduke. Although what I'm talking about is the resistances and weaknesses on attack types - Considering JK is only strong to piercing, and neutral to everything else, and Vanaduke is only slightly weak to piercing and neutral to the rest, it doens't seem their "race" behaves like races of normal mobs.

You realise that was my point? You originally stated that Vanaduke isn't a fiend because he doesn't have a high enough weakness to piercing damage. I countered by saying bosses have weaknesses and strengths reduced so that damage is normalised somewhat.

    There aren't enough bosses currently to consider this a basic boss aspect. It's probably correct, although this does not relate to Vanaduke being a fiend; I think it's pretty obvious Royal Jelly is a slime. But Vanaduke has no actual indication of his race; His story is kind of inclined to fiend, although this would be just another random guess. Considering his stratum can be undead, his summons are always undead, and mobs in his levels are also undead, it'd make more sense if he was undead - Though I tested this myself and he is not undead.

Yes, I agree that Royal Jelly is obviously a slime, but following your logic, he isn't a slime. Also what makes you think one boss can be a certain type (slime) but another boss surprisingly has no type at all, which is a much larger assumption considering nearly everything in the game has a certain type.
You also realise saying he's Undead is also a random guess, with even less proof backing it up. Even if you later say he isn't, there is much more proof to say he is a Fiend to begin with. He does summon undead, yes, but he also summons fiends (Trojans). His citadel also has Trojans. His attacks are very similar to Trojans. He acts very much like a Trojan sans shield.

    Edit: Just ran Vanaduke. I'm fairly sure that his body, at the least, is not fiend; I was dealing 102 damage or so to his body with a lv6 Ascended Calibur with High Fiend Bonus, while Zombies would take 122 from the very same weapon. It seems he's a bit resistant to normal aswell. Maybe his weakness to piercing is a normal one, but he simply takes less damage, like if he was considered a T4 mob or something. (If you notice - The bigger jellies on RJP take less damage than normal ones. Those are T3 jellies. Additionally, the Jelly King ends up taking the same damage as those big ones.)

Yes this would be a good way to test it (UV vs Fiend), but not by comparing damage on a zombie with damage on Vanaduke. You would have to compare damage on identical swords except one having the UV and one not. If you have a friend with you to run with that has a non-UV sword, you can compare damage with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they reduced the effectiveness of the Fiend bonus as well but there should at least be some damage difference.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 22:34
#28
kakelgis
Legacy Username
You realise that was my

You realise that was my point? You originally stated that Vanaduke isn't a fiend because he doesn't have a high enough weakness to piercing damage. I countered by saying bosses have weaknesses and strengths reduced so that damage is normalised somewhat.

And my point here is that if they were really just reduced but keeping their race, it'd be a bit different than this. :l

Yes, I agree that Royal Jelly is obviously a slime, but following your logic, he isn't a slime. Also what makes you think one boss can be a certain type (slime) but another boss surprisingly has no type at all, which is a much larger assumption considering nearly everything in the game has a certain type.
You also realise saying he's Undead is also a random guess, with even less proof backing it up. Even if you later say he isn't, there is much more proof to say he is a Fiend to begin with. He does summon undead, yes, but he also summons fiends (Trojans). His citadel also has Trojans. His attacks are very similar to Trojans. He acts very much like a Trojan sans shield.

The thing is, on appearance, backstory (Monstrous Profile) and etc, you can easily guess Jelly King's race. (Besides, his name is Royal Jelly!) For Vanaduke, most of the backstory information on him doens't tell much about his actual race, even though it might seem like it's inclined to fiend. (I usually don't trust backstory or stats much on Spiral Knights for those things - There's quite a few 'false' descriptions, attack/defense/resist meters are sometimes pretty wrong, etc; Usually, only actual testing can tell about those things.) His appearance doens't tell much either - If anything, he looks like some bizarre giant Spiral Knight. (I also don't understand how undead being pretty much everywhere around him and his Citadel would have less backing up than fiend?)

His Slag Guards (The Trojans) aren't fiends, they count as undead. I guess he does act like a trojan, but that's not much.

Yes this would be a good way to test it (UV vs Fiend), but not by comparing damage on a zombie with damage on Vanaduke. You would have to compare damage on identical swords except one having the UV and one not. If you have a friend with you to run with that has a non-UV sword, you can compare damage with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they reduced the effectiveness of the Fiend bonus as well but there should at least be some damage difference.

As I said a bit below in the edit, I am working on leveling the Leviathan and will later compare.
Using a zombie for a basic comparison isn't really a problem - It's not like he has tons of resist to normal. (...To confirm this, no, he doens't: Magnus' Leviathan Blade at lv10 deals about 185 to his body. Around 210 on zombies, I believe - The difference is about the same as Ascended Calibur's)

On either case, this argument is pretty silly and off-topic; Should probably be kept for some other thread, that is actually about Vanaduke or whatever. But in general, there's no proof he is a fiend, and there's no proof he isn't either.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 22:37
#29
Raspberry's picture
Raspberry
Vanaduke would enjoy

Hawaii. He sounds hybrid like me and most of the population of Hawaii. There are even active volcanoes and where he and his minions can vacation in.

(Hides high attack speed UV Final Flourish...) No really Mr. Vanaduke, that's just a toothpick, nothing to worry about sweetie. Just staying on topic. (Muahahaha...)

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 22:48
#30
antidakoda
Legacy Username
New boss is undead. Why you

New boss is undead. Why you ask? Look at the last gate.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 23:01
#31
Stardrinker
Legacy Username
And my point here is that if
    And my point here is that if they were really just reduced but keeping their race, it'd be a bit different than this. :l

How so? The devs can increase or reduce the bonuses and penalties on bosses as much as they like, even remove them altogether. The fact that he actually does take extra damage from pierce (even though it's small) is not something you just ignore.

    The thing is, on appearance, backstory (Monstrous Profile) and etc, you can easily guess Jelly King's race. (Besides, his name is Royal Jelly!) For Vanaduke, most of the backstory information on him doens't tell much about his actual race, even though it might seem like it's inclined to fiend. (I usually don't trust backstory or stats much on Spiral Knights for those things - There's quite a few 'false' descriptions, attack/defense/resist meters are sometimes pretty wrong, etc; Usually, only actual testing can tell about those things.) His appearance doens't tell much either - If anything, he looks like some bizarre giant Spiral Knight. (I also don't understand how undead being pretty much everywhere around him and his Citadel would have less backing up than fiend?)

When I first fought Jelly King I thought "Oh, it's a giant Jelly". When I first fought Vanaduke I thought "Oh, it's a giant Trojan".

    His Slag Guards (The Trojans) aren't fiends, they count as undead. I guess he does act like a trojan, but that's not much.

He acts like a Trojan but that's not much? He acts like a Trojan (Fiend), he takes extra damage from pierce (Fiend) he probably takes less damage from shadow although this has to be tested (because who goes into FC with a pure shadow weapon) although you take this as meaning 'not much'? It's the only proof we have so far and it points to Fiend.

    On either case, this argument is pretty silly and off-topic; Should probably be kept for some other thread, that is actually about Vanaduke or whatever. But in general, there's no proof he is a fiend, and there's no proof he isn't either.

Agreed. We now know what he meant by 'complement them nicely' so this thread has lost it's purpose. In general, we have solid proof he is probably a Fiend but no proof he isn't a Fiend, only your opinions so far. If you find that a plain level 10 Leviathan blade does exactly the same damage as a level 10 Leviathan blade with Fiend UV I will, however, concede that he isn't a Fiend.

Sat, 04/30/2011 - 02:12
#32
Raspberry's picture
Raspberry
Going back on topic...sort of

I wanted to look more like a musketeer with Rose Chapeau and Final Flourish line so I have been hunting all day for recipes. The first flourish I crafted UVed at High Attack Speed, so I thought cool, fast new toy. That was until I actually had to raise the Swift Flourish to make into Grand Flourish. Gawd this thing is way too fast for me.

I am currently raising 2 Swift Flourishes, 1 with High Attack Speed UV and 1 non UV. The non UV is just the right speed for someone who uses a mouse to play. I am debating on either making the Final Flourish high attack speed UV for my associate Thebadger or selling it. My associate prefers fast blades over slower blades and really shines on combining both high speed blades with Argent Peacemaker.

Swift Flourish tears through beasts amazingly fast. I think I'll try it on a Robo arena with Trojan boss. What you say? Constructs are highly resistant to piercing damage! Yes, but it's fun to watch the Trojan boss bash a Mecha Knight. The Mecha Knight takes big damage from the Trojan then malfunctions close to the Trojan boss which in turn causes shock damage to the Trojan. Hmmm, on second thought, a high UV attack speed Final Flourish will make shoving robots into the path of rockets and Trojans faster and funnier.

One of these days I'm going to play this game as intended!

Sat, 04/30/2011 - 03:58
#33
Aquilus
No

Yeah, this is way off topic by now. I guess those silly costumes where what's being referred to, which is a bit of a letdown in my opinion, as I was hoping for some actual content.

Sat, 04/30/2011 - 04:54
#34
Splinter's picture
Splinter
$10 for some energy and a new

$10 for some energy and a new costume item. honestly I think I might do it just because of how good this game has been. $20 for a lot of good game time and play to me is no big deal.

This has potential to get everyone to have a little more CE, might bring the CE market down a bit as an influx of CE comes in.

Tue, 05/03/2011 - 13:13
#35
Poseidon's picture
Poseidon
Game Master
Moderation

Removed a number of posts here discussing inappropriate use of game files. These should not be shared with the public clearly, but reported directly to us.
Abuse of these are considered a violation of the Terms of Service which will get accounts banned permanently.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 14:19
#36
netmask
Legacy Username
....

....

Tue, 05/03/2011 - 14:51
#37
FlashbackJon
Legacy Username
Weeeeeeeeell...

...the simplest answer is because it's against the Terms of Service?
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Terms_of_Service#6._Restrictions

6.1, 6.13, and finally 20.

If you sign a contract with me not to read a book, and then you read a book, you're still in violation of the contract, even if I personally leave my books laying around your house.

Tue, 05/03/2011 - 17:26
#38
adrian783
Legacy Username
eh, i guess thats that. good

eh, i guess thats that. good work still thougt, netmask.

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