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Fri, 08/31/2012 - 04:23
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt

Monster habitats:

i was thinkng that when ever i go down to the clockworks, i always feel like im not really in the monsters habitat just because the monsters do not really have anykind of behavior. i do not mean battle behavior, i mean other behaviors that would distinguish the monsters as being alive or have artificial life. im not trying to say to make an ai or make a huge program just to show this, i mean to just program some actions the monsters do when the knights are not attacking them before the battle start or after the knights have aboned the battle and the monsters are no longer chasing the knights.
Here is one example: i come to the clockworks around the beast family area and see a couple wolvers that are fighting the hell out of each other for a piece of meat. not that theres actually a piece of meat there, thats just the reason there fighting and not that there actually gonna kill each other, u just see them biting, and mauling each other. i think just coming upon that scene, i would feel that the wolvers are not just waiting there for me to come to give them a good wacking, which would feel like thats all there made for. well it is all there made for (lol), but still giving them other behavior would make it feel i actually entered there habitat instead of just coming to an area where i dont feel they really fit there. i think it would give them a better purpose then to just apear then be killed by our might.

another example:
would have to be coming to one of the gremlin family and see one of the gremlin thwackers working on a bridge. not that he would be actually working on the bridge or even be doing anything to the bridge, but it would seem like he belongs there. he would not be just sitting there doing nothing and waiting for me to come and give him a bullet of my blackhawk into his head. i mean, these small behaviors would give the monsters life and they would not just be just enemies, they would be enemies with that have style (that have more purpose then for me to kill them). when i mean style, i mean they would not only be made for fighting, but they would seem like they can also do other things. not that they can of course. we already have some small examples in emberlight, where we can see some gremlin working on a bridge or having conversations with each other.

one big example of individual monster behavior that seperates the families and i dont know if anyone noticed this, but if u create two giant linchen colonies next to each other, they would start to try to attack each other. This was before a couple patches around 3 months ago so i dont know if it is still the same way. when ever i would reach a linchen theme base level, i would create giant linchen colonies for fun (hoping a beeter item payout). odly after i created two next to each other, after i have vacated the premises, they would start to try to attack each other as if trying to absorb each other. i thought that was a great monster behavior that indicated there apetite for absorbing other linchens. i do not see this kind of behavior with any other monsters. An example of monster behaviors that could be implemented is two alpha wolvers debating who should be leader of the pack or something along those lines.

Infiltrating there habitat:

Heres the thing about doing a run into the clockworks, once u have done it a few hundred times, u notice everything is predictable. im not saying that because there predictable, u can easily swurve around enemy attacks and give them a one two three and take em down. what im saying is you know where each monster is going to apear, u know what each of their attack paterns are and what their next moves are about to be and this makes the exploration of the clockworks more of a (chore) homework to get crowns then an adventure to reach the core. i know this is what we call grinding in games and we also know most people hate that part in the games and of course i do too. grinding is like u have this new toy when u were 3 years old, and u keep playing with it the same way u did sense u were three without ever briging it outside and bringing it to new places with u to see if its more fun there. thats more torture to me. anyway back to spiral knights.

so about how the monsters appear. why not make it that there are already monsters there also from the post that i posted above have their own natural behaviors. and after we start to attack them, then they go into this alert mode, and when their in this mode they call some back up after we start to kill a few of them.

so for example:
we dive into the clockworks and fell into the gremlin family level theme. right after we meet a few gremlin knocker (after we took a sec to notice their unique behaviors while running towards them) we start to fight them and take 2 of them out (notice that we met them, and noticed them from a distance, they did not appear out of nowhere). usually theres about 4 to 3 of the that are summoned, so theres this one guy left all by himself against 4 knigts. so he goes into this alert mode and calls for help ( using his stylish radio comlink :p). he calls for 1 mender and lets say about 3 to 4 lumbers. now the knights are met by a suprise attack and are completely surrounded by 4 lumbers and a healer backing them up ( cause thats all healers can do, back monsters up). this small scene would add a bit more variaty in the game and the fact that the monsters we met at the begining did not appear out of thin air makes it seem like were actually invading their territory and not just passing through an unhabited area and getting ambush by teleporting monsters.

another example woul be:
going down into the clockworks and meeting a pack of wolvers (who did not appear out of thin air or randomly pop from the ground) they did not notice us cause they were facing away and have bad hearing (lol) and we start to slash at em. they get alerted and start to bark furious ( which would mean calling for help). so unexpectedly 4 to 5 silkwings pop from some bushes and 3 alpha wolvers pop intoaction. also notice from the moment they appear they start to attack, they do not have to notice where the knight is sense they are back up for those wolvers that were calling for help. so now the knights have to deal with three angry alpha wolvers and a flock of 5 silkwings backing them up ( cause thats whay healers do wish they did something else). i only say to leave the monsters out in the field for the knights to notice so as to increase the difficulty of being swarmed by monsters. Also the alert mode is not a frequent event, and because of that, it is not predictable to knights that does the clockworks 5 to 6 times a day using elevator passes or ce.

for example:
if u ever went into a level that was named deconstruction in it, once you entered the level via the party button, u would notice all the monsters are all outside waiting for you. besides the ones that are locked in a cage and the ones that teleport to u after activating and item from mission, there all there. What increases the dificulty about them being all there is that if you are fighting one of them, another would come to join the fray. and if you are backing away, you woud attract more attention until a whole swarm of monsters are chasing you. this increases the number of monsters you have to deal with and gives you the feeling you are actually being pushed by the inhabitants of that teritory which would be the gremlins. if this were aplied in other levels (maybe not all levels) and monsters had the ability to call for help, it would increase the feeling that were invading there teritory and give the feeling that the monsters have connections with another ( that they work together to push away the opposing threat). the only monsters so far i see have a deep connection is the devilite and the gremlins. when a Pit Boss devil comes to an (unemployed) Devilite forces him to be a (worker) Devilite Overtimer. why not create these kinds of connections with the wolver. where if a silkwing was about to die, the wolvers would all rush to attack the player attacking that silkwing or something similar to that.

this next sugestion is a bit off topic but ill mention it anyway.

Healers:

we all know healers do what they do best and cant do nothing else which is heal and heal and sometimes give a knight a little knockback. But for me, i think that is just a bit too underpowered sense they also are suppose to be a part of the fighting force that the knights are trying to eradicate. One aspect of being a healer which i am not sugesting from the game logic is that that a healer must know how the body of the patient functions and what to do to heal there ailment. So just using some basic logic, sense the healers knows how the body of that patient functions, they should also know how to manipulate it. so now if we were to aply this to the game, the menders ability to heal i think is still in debate wether it is magic or science. so assuming it is which ever one of those two, the menders should have an ability to enhance monsters that are near death instead of healing them.

for example:
a turret is shooting 3 volleys of energy bullets at a knight, 3 knights start to shoot at it and the damage done to it exceeds the menders healing ability. So instead of healing it, the mender gives it a temporary 4 to 5 second heightened damage ouput. so now the bullets take about 10 %to 15% more damage then it could have before. not that the knights cant dodge the bullets, but if it were to hit a knight with low health, it would have taken on of them out out of the three opposing shooters.

another example:
the enhancements do not always have to be damage output or a defensive increase. it can also be some actuall physical implementations. for example. an alpha wolver is close to being killed by a knight with barborous thorn as his weapon. theres one silkwing there trying to heal the alpha, but the alpha is close to death. so instead of healing, the silkwing enhances the alpha ability to follow a player during the time it is attacking for 3 seconds. this would give the wolver the ability to home in on that player and give him an unexpected challenge.

Last but not least:

I think the devs do not want to give healers the ability to heal so that they can just be in the healing catogory an not be able to inflict anykind of offensive damage. then why not create alternate forms of healers that sway away from the crowd healing objective.

for example:
we do not have to actually create a new family of monsters, but give a monster the ability to heal for himself only. here is a deadly combo witch would be overpowered (op) but definetly a good challenge. Give greavers the ability to heal base on 25% of the damage they took out of one knights health. this would give greavers a vampiric like appearance. It would seem that they're sucking the life away from the knights that it attacks. I only say it would be op if a flock of greavers attacked you from all sides. that would mean any health that is lost from that knigt while fighting them would heal that greavers health. i do not know how much health a greaver has sense the information about the amount of health a monster has is not given to us, but i think that ability would heal a greavers health pretty quickly. this ability is kind of like a healers ability to heal but solely for that monster alone.

well thats all i have to say. hope i get some good comments.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 15:10
#1
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
okay

i have just reread my post and polished it up a bit. any comments that reflects on my post would be greatly apreciated. :)

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 19:21
#2
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances
The habitat details are

The habitat details are relative.
One could argue monsters smell/hear/feel knigths while they take the elevator and hide, to attempt to ambush us.

Makes as much sense as your logic.

Or we can argue that the clockworks are more like a zoo than something natural. Monsters are under stress, or being brainwashed (overexposure to energy form core? swarm mind-controlling them?). This excuses their lack of... life.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 19:22
#3
Yttriu's picture
Yttriu
But Clockworks isn't a

But Clockworks isn't a habitat. It was something constructed to kill us, pretty much.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 19:51
#4
Skyguarder's picture
Skyguarder
The clockworks was built in

The clockworks was built in cradle by the gremlins. Inside the clockworks, somewhere in the middle, you will see the core of it.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 17:41
#5
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
no way!

i have to argue against you. you can not say the clock works were built to kill us ( even if it were by the devs lol :p). in the story of sk, it says the knight crashed here from escape pods and is now trying toget energy to go back home or just leave the planet. it does not say, they were built exaclty for the purpose to destroy the knights.

- towards benight: gremlins did not build the clockworks, if you check the story, it says no mater how mechanical ingenuous they are, there was no way they have the capacity to build cradle. it says they suspect an even greater powerful being built the clockworks.

- another point, why have themes. why decorate the surroundings with bushes in the beast area or missels in the demolition construct areas, becasue the monsters have habitat. it was meant to feel like the monsters belong there. so why not make them act the part, why not make them seem like they have more purpose then to be destroyed by us. would it not give the game a litttle more flavor?

- another discussion: can u please anyone respond to my point about setting monsters in field like the deconstruction levels instead of having them appear of of thin air ( if their is normal air in sk, besides the mist energized air.). also, please cover the point about giving healers further abilities and creating a monster that focuses on healing itself rather then focusing on healing a group of its comerades.

- please i would really like to hear ur thoughts on those subjects. pleeeeeaaaaaaaaaasseeee? im dying to hear what u have to say. :(

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 19:23
#6
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

The echo stones actually indicate that the clockworks are a death trap. The fact that someone suspects that gremlins didn't build the clockworks is a theory, though it's likely that the core (the being, not the prison) played a part.

You are very long winded, so I'm not actually reading this whole thing. I see in one place you suggest that monsters call for help. This should not be an attack, but I think it makes a much better spawn method than magically making monsters appear.

Healers -

I like the idea of making support monsters.

Habitats -

It's not actually their habitat, so custom habitats don't make sense. But seeing behaviors would be cute.

Overall, I think there are more important things to do, but I like most of these.

Wed, 09/26/2012 - 20:20
#7
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
ty

@addisond:
ty for the comment, and i do agree with u that it should not be an attack. it should just be a function that monsters use when they are low in numbers and on health.

maybe u are right about there being more important things to do, but changing the method of the game like monsters appearing out of thin air i think should be changed to something that can be more easily explained. lol

Fri, 10/05/2012 - 05:32
#8
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
hmm

anymore thoughts?
cause this is game changing suggestion, at least towards the monsters. it should at least be thought about a little deeper.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 15:09
#9
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Tl;Dr

But what I will say of what I did read (there are limits, I don't go on forums to read a book) is that monster habitats absolutely should be in the game. The monsters may have been forced onto Cradle, that part is true BUT that doesn't mean they can't have come to live on Cradle by now. Surely if they are able to survive living on Cradle then they have adapted to their environments. Speaking of adapting to environment, of course the Wolver will be used to being on Cradle by now.
Using scent or brainwashing is just a poor excuse (except maybe for beasts and fiends). Need I point out there ARE friendly Jelly (the lil' blue things). Not only that but Love Puppies help the knight. Also; why do some seemingly stupid monsters spawn behind you?

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 21:24
#10
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
lol...

@Chaos-Mist:

Hehehe, thanks for commenting chaos-Mist. I created this thread a while ago, and i'm glad you feel interested in it. I don't think it's a necessary to have this suggestion in the game, but i think having it would create a more immerse atmosphere for players as they are grinding away cause these events i described won't always be happening, but happen more by chance and would be from my perspective a marvel to gaze upon.

By the way, i'm not sure how the developers will take bringing back an old post into the front page. I did that before and got a warning sent to my character in game because a forum-er reported me. So just a warning to be careful sense i'm not sure how they will react.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 15:47
#11
Fangel's picture
Fangel
That sounds like a rude thing to do

If you're replying to a post with good words, then it's not bad to "necro" a thread. However if you just "bump" a thread with nothing to add, then it's frowned upon.

Actually, necroing threads in general is frowned upon by the community unless it's an old thread that is relevant again. If you have a similar suggestion, link to it in a new thread if you can, but add onto it.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 16:33
#12
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

@Fangel "However if you just "bump" a thread with nothing to add, then it's frowned upon." - I did have comments to make regarding it. People's responses to the idea had flaws which (as-well as making relevant, because it is a good idea) I wanted to point out. This is a "game changing suggestion" and people have pulled it apart with some really odd logic such as , the Clockworks existing to kill Knights (which makes no sense since the CWs were there first).

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 18:28
#13
Fangel's picture
Fangel
That was a blanket statement.

I was saying that as a sort of blanket to all players, not targeting you. You added something. I was talking more in line to Blandaxt's comment about getting an in-game warning for necro'ing a thread.

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