Vial-using weapon
Wed, 09/05/2012 - 12:39
>A quicksheet is available at the bottom of the opening post along with a few questions. However, it is recommended you read the entire post<
So, in a previous topic, the concept of using vials to empower weapons came up. This however becomes overpowered with certain weapons. So, then the idea of a weapon, oh say a gun, that has regular bullets and vial-powered bullets.
The suggested name was Vialance.
So about the gun:
I'm envisioning it being a branch from Master Blaster; having it be the 5* brother to Valiance. It would be a normal-typed weapon. It's speed would be equal to that of the Valiance, and having a level 10 power of half of the Valiance. The reason for this power deficiency is because of it's charge-mechanic:
Consuming the vial you have in the first, left-most slot, the Vialance's charge attack will have a good chance of inducing that status. The vial would be consumed in order to give the charge shot it's status. After a charge, the next normal bullet launched from the gun will have a Slight chance of inflicting that status. Pills, remedy, and mechaknight-kits would be ignored. The chance of inflicting a status with the charge attack would be Good, while the vial's *-level would increase potency.
0* status vials: Good chance of Minor
2* status vials: Good chance of Moderate
4* status vials: Good chance of Strong
The normal attack would take on the charge's status and the Tier you're in would determine how many shots will cause status.
Tier 1: one shot would have a slight chance of
Tier 2: two shots would have a slight chance of
Tier 3: three shots would have a slight chance of
When a vial is used to charge with, the charge would do significantly more power. Vial-powered shots part of the normal attack would also see a damage buff of doubled power. The power shots last depending on the Tier you are in, maxing out with one combo or three shots in Tier 3. I say or, as the programing may not allow one or the other. Without a vial, however, the Vialance performs as it does below:
Thus the non-vial-infused damage values would look similar to this:
---------|Stratum1|S2|S3|S4|S5|S6|
Basic Attack |19|24|34|44|64|84|
Charge Attack |40|50|65|75|105|120|
With a vial the values become:
---------|Stratum1|S2|S3|S4|S5|S6|
Basic Attack |38|48|68|88|128|168|
Charge Attack |50|63|130|150|289|330|
As you go through the Clockworks, you inevitably pick up many vials, most of which will either be dropped, used for some fan-fair on the elevator, or simply never used. With the Vialance as a usable weapon, it can make for both a use for vials, and a fun gun for players to use. With the charge attack draining vials and applying them to both charge and normal bullets, it can also fire a basic 3-bullet magazine and a statusless charge attack without the need of a vial. This would add a level of flexibility and unpredictability to an otherwise normal gun. Being based on the Valiance would also help to provide a solid base for implementing the gun's basic characteristics.
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There are a few things about the gun that should be worked out.
Sleep Vials.
There is no sleep-infliction weapon. While we have the vial, and with the Vialance, the weapon, the game may not be ready for a sleep weapon. This would result in having sleep vials not be usable with the gun, or finally remove sleep vials from the game. This point would be more for the Dev to decide. I'm rather impartial either way.
-Sleep being incompatible has been promoted.
Curse Vials.
If you did load up on 3 Ultra vials of Curse, you would, with the Vialance described above be able to inflict Gran Faust-level curse with a higher rate of infliction. Curse vials are, to my knowledge, not the least common vial-type, and a single player can only carry 3. Whereas the Gran Faust can spammed for eternity. Could a group stock up on vials and have one person shoot up to 12 Cursing-charge shots? Yes, that would be a possibility, but this is much less severe as that same group launching charged Gran Faust "swords". As it stands, Gran Faust (and it's downgrades) are the only cursing weapons, and while only the seal sword can inflict curse without also being cursed, it isn't anywhere near as reliable as the Vialance would be able to inflict it. I'm for the use of Curse vials in the Vialance's charge attack, but I will admit, if that makes the gun overpowered, it can be looked at further.
-Curse being incompatible has been promoted, though I am still ok with curse vials being able to be consumed.
Charge time.
The charge times for the Valiance have not been included onto the wiki, so I can't make an accurate say on the charge time, other than to make it comparable to the Valiance as it levels up. I would imagine, with the power already cut on the gun's basic and charge attack, having it charge it's vial-based status charge in a quick manner would be an okay feature. I'm impartial on this point in that it can be made longer or shorter, as balance sees fit.
-A short charge time has been promoted.
Knockback.
The valiance has knockback on all bullets, which I am not sure with being on the Vialance's basic shot or exist on the charge. It would seem even more of the valiance-gimick-clone than it already is. The removal of knockback on it's charge (status or otherwise) would help to underpower the overall gun. Flinching/knockdown, I'm less certain on. I would lean more against, however.
-Minor knockback has been promoted, though I am not for it.
Status Infliction.
Less of a point of contention, more a stating of it: The blast that would normally cause knockback on the Valiance, causes a status, instead, and does not knock back enemies. Those inflicted with damage from the blast have a good chance of the vial's status, if one was used.
-Making statuses more of a sure thing, and including them on the normal shot has been promoted.
Lockdown.
Don't care. Very simply, if vials are in lockdown, then I suppose the gun could be banned from pvp, if there is a problem. It is not possible for me to care less about this point. I would expect this gun to be used in the PVE areas of the game, and that is where I've concentrated my caring.
-Making the gun behave differently in Lockdown, by taking it's status-charge from the last status inflicted has been promoted, though I am not for it.
Aesthetics.
The charge blast would be colored based on the vial:
Orange: Fire
Blue: Shock
Yellow: Stun
Green: Poison
Maroon: Curse
White: Freeze
And Red would be the regular bullets.
The look of the gun would be like a paint gun,
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00KelEutjzsLcG/Spray-Paint-Gun-162A1-...
With the 'paint' container being a transparent vat.
-Paint/ball gun design promoted
Recipe
The Vialance can take advantage of the minor crownsink that are the vial-merchants in the Clockworks and Basil in the Mission lobby. If the recipe for this weapon were an exclusive to the Auction House, or Clockworks, or even as a boss reward, it could also serve to sink crowns. A player going into a mission or arriving at a Terminal could stock up on the vials they want, spending some crowns to not rely on enemy drops. My say on the matter is that I have no strong persuasion on how this weapon is acquired.
-Recipe not appearing in Hall of Heroes has been promoted, I am not inclined to disagree.
Backfire
Many top end and dangerous weapons have the possibility of inflicting the user with a status. As a 5* weapon, the Vialance could carry chance to inflict the user with that vial-powered charge. I can see logic in it, and while it would keep it behind or besides the Gran/Faust in terms of inflicting curse, I'm not sure if this would be a needed ordeal as it could make the weapon more of a liability than an asset. (though I don't expect this weapon to be the next Sealed Sword-line, either).
-Backfire on a 4* version has been promoted, I'm in a grey area with the idea of backfire, 4 or 5-star. It could help or hurt the usefulness of the weapon, as unlike the examples, the Vialance isn't a very strong gun.
4-star version
To make it more widely used and available, a 4-star version could implemented. There is nothing wrong with the idea. A power cut and scaling the possibility of status on the normal shots back a tier could a Vialance "Prototype" be. Though I also don't see a huge reason for it.
-4* version promoted, I'm not convinced of its necessity, but if it needed for spreading its' use, I guess.
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Quick Sheet
Vialance (5*) branches from Master Blaster (4*) and shoots 3 normal-damaging bullets with a normal-damaging charge attack.
The Vialance has little power without a vial:
---------|Stratum1|S2|S3|S4|S5|S6|
Basic Attack |19|24|34|44|64|84|
Charge Attack |40|50|65|75|105|120|
The Vialance utilizes a vial from your inventory (slot 1, then when empty, slot 2) with a charge attack. The vial is consumed in the charge and is gone from your inventory.
When a vial is used, it's status is applied to the charge attack and a tier-based number of subsequent combo-shots. (Tier 1 allows 1 shot after charge to carry a chance at status; Tier 2 allows 2 shots; Tier 3 allows 3 shots)
With a vial consumed, the Vialance does more damage:
---------|Stratum1|S2|S3|S4|S5|S6|
Basic Attack |38|48|68|88|128|168|
Charge Attack |50|63|130|150|289|330|
The chance of inflicting status is Good for all tiers of the Charge attack, the combo-shot only has a Slight chance.
Strength of the status is based on Vial star-rating (ranging from Minor to Strong)
Sleep vials are not compatible with the Vialance.
There is no knockback on the Vialance's shots
The Vialance has a faster charge than Valiance. This may change when data is collected on Valiance's charge time.
The Vialance takes its vials from Slot 1 of the inventory and moves through 2 through 4 as they become vacant. (run out of vials in Slot 1, Slot 2's vials will be used)
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So, that is the gun, I would like to know how /vial/able this would be to implement. I ask you, the reader to answer these question of:
-Would you use this weapon?
-What about the gun do you like/don't like?
-What about the gun should be changed so you would use it?
Thank you for reading.
(Updated 9/22/12)
Fri, 09/07/2012 - 13:01
#2
To Survive The Coming Food
"This would have reintroduced the sniping part of the old shard bombs, which would redeem the change for people who used it for that, while creating a new weapon which is not simply a reskin of something and has a lot of versatility and utility in general."
So your only comment on this weapon is that because it reskins the Valiance, it should be overlooked in-favor of a different suggestion that is no longer on the board (quite literally).
No word on what could, then, make it a more viable weapon, or even about the mechanic of vial-based charged attacks.
While sure, your gun is nice, a topic should be created for it. (or as you've done, mention it in your index).
Fri, 09/07/2012 - 13:21
#3
How about something like a paintball gun... except that isnetad of having paint it has a white (neutral) vial attahced.
Ratehr than unleashing a charge, charging shoudl 'reload' teh gun with a vial. After that, your next 2-6 (tier based) normal shots will cause status. (vial is slowly emptied, not used at all once)
I find too much trouble in wasting a vial for a chance of inflciting status with one shot.
My idea is to make it random and risky. You may try the gun, wich may either not cause any status at all or inflict the status on more monsters than a single vial.
Fri, 09/07/2012 - 18:46
#4
+1 Please OOO include this, might make the game much more fun.
awesome idea! I wanna add a few more ideas. Ok, please forgive me ( I skimmed through the OP) if this was already on it but the Vialance should be a non HoH- recipe and the damage it deals should be weaker than valiance's damage. I'm kinda sleepy right now.... Also, I think the Vialance should start at 4* instead of 5* cause it will make it a bit harder to obtain. 4* of Vialance: Vialance Protoype (not really original). Description: This prototype was made after a new recruit acidently loaded a vial into his blaster. It is known to inflict the vial's status to the user sometimes.
Yep, thats right, the 4* charge should have a chance to inflict the status of the vial to the user. When you upgrade it to the 5* it wont have to chance to inflict the status to yourslef.
Sorry for all the grammer and spelling mistakes
Fri, 09/07/2012 - 20:06
#5
ahh man
Soulstaker took the words right out of my mouth about this gun dealing less damage than Valiance.
This gun should also have knockback on the charge, but not as much as Valiance. So it would pretty much be be CIV, but without the bonus vs undead.
+1
Sat, 09/08/2012 - 07:35
#6
I would totally love to see something like this... +1
The details are a bit hazy, but I'm sure the devs could work them out fairly quickly. I personally would like to see the normal shots use one vial per combo, have 1.5X as much attack power as valiance and always inflict their statuses... unless you don't have a vial, in which case the normal shots would do around .5x as much as valiance. Charges would of course use a whole vial, and would be similar in terms of damage, but on a larger scale (twice if a vial is used, half if not).
Sat, 09/08/2012 - 09:59
#7
So Basically :
The
So Basically :
The "Vialance" - The Valiance's twin that utilizes vials in weaponry rather than continue their current shallow usage. (Also, only 1 is needed, so you can use the other 2 <- ?)
Usage : The Vial in the First (Leftmost) slot will determine the "Vialance"'s status, and the strength of status inflictions will be decided by the strength of the vials.
Curse & Sleep Vials : Probably need to be on the ignore list
Charge Attack : Seeing as the gun will be weaker than the usual Valiance, a faster charge time would do nicely indeed. :3
Knockback & Status Infliction : I think it will be better to keep the knockback, but just make it weaker, as status infliction all the time with only the disadvantage of no knock backs is Overpowered. :X
Lockdown : There are no vials in lockdown, so it would literally be useless :P. Maybe the "Vialance" could take the status of the attack it last took. This would make the "Vialance" very fluctuant, which might give an interesting LD experience :p. (This is probably a bad idea, though, since T3 LD has you dead in very few hits. :<.. Perhaps the gun could take its status with it even after death? :p, also this would require complicated coding to separate PvE from PvP. :<)
Aesthetics : I think that while the different colors are great, maybe it could be better. :O Perhaps we could have the bullets look like the bullets from Gun Puppies, Kats, and howitzers? :O It would save the need for extra blast designs, and maybe the gun could have the look of a Gun Puppy, instead of just being a gun looking identical to the Vialance. :p
Soulstaker and Goldarchh - I think he already thought about that in the charge time section ._. "I would imagine, with the power already cut on the gun's basic and charge attack, having it charge it's vial-based status charge in a quick manner would be an okay feature."
Fehzor - It doesn't guarantee a status infliction, but only a chance to inflict it. :p I do agree that the "Vialance" would be almost useless until you actually get a Vial. I don't think he mentioned that Charges would consume a whole vial :O, but it might be needed in case the "Vialance" is too overpowered.
I really like this idea and hope it gets implemented :3 I spent extra time on reading and making comments because I liked it so much. :D
+1!
Sun, 09/09/2012 - 01:57
#8
because successful traders do not shout about
@Little-Juances
"-How about something like a paintball gun... except that isnetad of having paint it has a white (neutral) vial attahced.
-Ratehr than unleashing a charge, charging shoudl 'reload' teh gun with a vial. After that, your next 2-6 (tier based) normal shots will cause status. (vial is slowly emptied, not used at all once)
-I find too much trouble in wasting a vial for a chance of inflciting status with one shot.
My idea is to make it random and risky. You may try the gun, wich may either not cause any status at all or inflict the status on more monsters than a single vial."
-Make it clear, and I think we have the Vialance's design.
-So, charging only selects the vial, adding status to the normal shots. This drains the used vial, which can be reloaded with another vial.
I am fine with the idea of it draining the vial, however, I'm not sure if I'm 100% on having the status put on normal shots. Partially because then you have (using 2 for Stratum 1, and increasing by 1 by stratum) 7 Cursing shots for 1 vial, and a max of 21 shots each causing Strong Curse. However, maybe that is acceptable.
-I can respect that. While not entirely on-board with the idea, making the normal shots cause the same Good chance of a status may be too much. Meeting halfway, having a Slight chance on X-many subsequent shots after the charge-shot may be possible. This would still give a random sense to the status-bullets, and give more chances for causing that status. I hope this is a good compromise.
Points noted: status on normal shots; 'draining' vials over multiple shots; Paintball design
@Soulstalker/ Goldarchh
"-The Vialance should be a non HoH- recipe
-I think the Vialance should start at 4* instead of 5* cause it will make it a bit harder to obtain. 4* of Vialance: Vialance Protoype (not really original). Description: This prototype was made after a new recruit acidently loaded a vial into his blaster. It is known to inflict the vial's status to the user sometimes.Yep, thats right, the 4* charge should have a chance to inflict the status of the vial to the user. When you upgrade it to the 5* it wont have to chance to inflict the status to yourslef. "
"-This gun should also have knockback on the charge, but not as much as Valiance. So it would pretty much be be CIV, but without the bonus vs undead."
-I see your non HoH- recipe, and raise you a Featured Auction Recipe. (not serious, I suppose as Token reward or Clockwork Exclusive would work too)
-A 4* that can backfire, but only at 4* can it backfire. The Gran/ Faust has a backfire chance on all charge-shots, the Fang of Vog has backfire on it's charge too. If a 4* would exist with backfire, I would be inclined to keep it on the 5*. However, I'm not sure if adding backfire on the gun is the way to go. 4* is an interesting point, though.
-I removed knockback originally in an attempt to distance it from the Valiance and limit it's overall power. Also this lack of knockback made up for the potential power of the Vialance.
Points noted: Recipe being exclusive; 4* star starting point; Backfire potential; addition of knockback
The "Vialance" - The Valiance's twin that utilizes vials in weaponry rather than continue their current shallow usage. (Also, only 1 is needed, so you can use the other 2 <- ?)
@Fehzor
"-I would totally love to see something like this... +1
-I personally would like to see the normal shots use one vial per combo, have 1.5X as much attack power as valiance and always inflict their statuses... unless you don't have a vial, in which case the normal shots would do around .5x as much as valiance. Charges would of course use a whole vial, and would be similar in terms of damage, but on a larger scale (twice if a vial is used, half if not)."
- :)
-So, slot 1's vial is used if 3 shots from the gun are fired. Then another vial is used if a charge shot occurs. While a damage buff for using the vial is nice, I wouldn't surpass the Valiance in power. From your description, this gun would power up on something easily found in the clockworks (and can be bought from Terminals and Mission lobbies) to render the Valiance trivial to use (though knockback would be it's claim to fame), in my opinion. Under your description, I feel you would user slot 1 vials too quickly. Resulting in having to migrate slots 2, 3, or 4 to 1. This would happen under the original suggested gun, but with that suggestion there is no power shift in the normal shots. However, this opens up points to consider.
Points noted: status on normal shots; more power to status-infused shots (charge and normal); using a vial on normal shots; using vials from slots 2-4
@Blishtar
"-The Valiance's twin that utilizes vials in weaponry rather than continue their current shallow usage. (Also, only 1 is needed, so you can use the other 2 <- ?)
-Curse & Sleep Vials : Probably need to be on the ignore list
-Charge Attack : Seeing as the gun will be weaker than the usual Valiance, a faster charge time would do nicely indeed. :3
-Knockback & Status Infliction : I think it will be better to keep the knockback, but just make it weaker, as status infliction all the time with only the disadvantage of no knock backs is Overpowered. :X
-Lockdown : There are no vials in lockdown, so it would literally be useless :P. Maybe the "Vialance" could take the status of the attack it last took. This would make the "Vialance" very fluctuant, which might give an interesting LD experience :p. (This is probably a bad idea, though, since T3 LD has you dead in very few hits. :<.. Perhaps the gun could take its status with it even after death? :p, also this would require complicated coding to separate PvE from PvP. :<)
-Aesthetics : I think that while the different colors are great, maybe it could be better. :O Perhaps we could have the bullets look like the bullets from Gun Puppies, Kats, and howitzers? :O It would save the need for extra blast designs, and maybe the gun could have the look of a Gun Puppy, instead of just being a gun looking identical to the Vialance.
- It doesn't guarantee a status infliction, but only a chance to inflict it. :p I do agree that the "Vialance" would be almost useless until you actually get a Vial. I don't think he mentioned that Charges would consume a whole vial :O, but it might be needed in case the "Vialance" is too overpowered."
-Spot on! Except vials are used 1:1 on Vial:Charge. For 1 vial, you can shoot 1 status-charge. That was the original intent.
-Sleep I put on because OOO may have some overhaul planned, also the taboo of Sleep being overpowered on knights; Curse, I'm not convinced should be banned entirely, as we have weapons with the power to curse. However, if curse if my original statements on its inclusion are riddled with falsehood, than ignore list it should be on.
-A faster charge I am not against. This would be when charge times would be nice for Valiance. Would give an idea for a comparison.
-Good Chance is still a chance for it to fail to inflict status. Although, wouldn't knockback and status make it even more overpowered? This was why I didn't include knockback on the original Vialance.
-I'm perfectly fine with Valiance being useless in lockdown. A path I would take before going into making it mirror statuses inflicted upon its user.
-Actually, Gun Puppy Gun (and armor) were another idea me and another came up with. But that is not for here. Having the bullets look like enemy strikes might make team-play a little too haphazard, as now your teammates are dodging your stray shots in a Candlestick Keep.
-I thought I did mention that, but maybe only had it in mind. The vial in a slot would be consumed to use on the charge attack. It does mean the Vialance is lackluster until you find a vial, but since vials can be purchased at terminals and lobbies, and are a relatively common drop, finding one in the clockworks is not a long challenge.
Points taken: Curse being rejected; faster charge; being clear on vials consumption.
Thank you all for the positive advice, I'm glad you like the idea! I'm going to update the first post with a 'quicksheet' so it isn't such a wall of text. I'll also update the gun itself with these new points. Once again thank you for your feedback. I too would like this gun, especially with the hundreds of vials that never get used (and the fact buying vials from Basil isn't practical).
Sun, 09/09/2012 - 08:22
#9
@Toxic
I listed it should start at 4* right? Making it harder to obtain cause these days alot of the popular recipes are in HoH. The reason why I want the 4* to have a chance to backfire because it will encoruage you to get the 5*. people could just charge spam all day with the 4* if it did not backfire.
Wed, 09/12/2012 - 11:40
#10
think you can make 50 gallons of pure wine in your
@Soulstaker
"I listed it should start at 4* right?
-Making it harder to obtain cause these days alot of the popular recipes are in HoH.
-The reason why I want the 4* to have a chance to backfire because it will encoruage you to get the 5*.
-people could just charge spam all day with the 4* if it did not backfire."
-I'm not sure if you believe these things are related, it being 4* and harder to obtain. I still don't why making it harder to obtain is of any benefit to anyone. This before knowing just how it should be more difficult to have. Will it be Voltaic Tempest difficult (requiring both boss-recipes and boss tokens), or make it auction-only; these questions come after knowing why making it harder to obtain is of help to players. Popular recipes are in the Hall of Heroes, isn't a satisfactory reason for me, as it doesn't carry much weight, or prove there is any problem to it. Please elaborate.
-Most weapons encourage you to upgrade weapons because the 5* is stronger, more potent, or carries added abilities. As I outlined with Gran/Faust, the chance of backfire is still present from 4* to its 5* form, I would meet the idea of backfiring half-way, as having it on both 4 and 5* Vialance.
-But the point of the weapon is to spam charges and use vials. I see the logic, a 4* that is less favorable than its upgrade to promote players to upgrade to 5*. However, why even have a 4* then? If the point is to get a weapon then immediately upgrade it, as using it as-is could hinder more than help, why not skip that step?
A 4* version should have a point, and if that point is to be a foil for the 5* version, I disagree and say that the 5* does not need a foil to be an interesting weapon. The potential to backfire, while an interesting mechanic, should have a point other than making a weapon inferior. As a means to offset the chance of Curse, I am fine with. As a means to offset the high damage it can do (with the multiplier on vial-infused attacks), I am also okay with. But if it amounts to getting players to drop 800 CE and about 30kCr in upgrading, I am going to have to decline.
Wed, 09/12/2012 - 12:38
#11
+1
I think this sounds like a good idea but I could just be biased because I think I've had a similar idea at some point.
Tue, 09/18/2012 - 17:43
#12
i like it.
this is kinda funny because this would be the first gun on the whole spiral knights that actually use bullets that has to be found. all guns for spiral knights dont have to get their bullets bought or found. they already come with it. but this gun would actually use vials as load status change. we could also stock on vials at the begining of the level from a vendor just to be ready for the level. hope its implemented.
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 21:58
#13
Praise the sun! \o/
I like the idea and the name is clever, but it would be the bane of dyslexics everywhere.
Sat, 09/22/2012 - 20:23
#14
let you steal my secrets, let me paint the picture of what they
@Blandaxt
"-we could also stock on vials at the begining of the level from a vendor just to be ready for the level. hope its implemented."
-The vendors were a thought about when this was still a fledgling of an idea.
@Knight-Solaire
"-I like the idea and the name is clever, but it would be the bane of dyslexics everywhere."
-Yeah, that is one downside to it. Though if a punnier name is out there, I'd be receptive to it!
@
"-I think this sounds like a good idea but I could just be biased because I think I've had a similar idea at some point."
-Great minds think alike, perhaps?
Glad you all like it, but I do wonder what could be made different for it. While the addition of 4* and backfire are possible, what would provoke someone to craft up this gun? I'll add a couple questions to the O.Post, as a means to better develop this idea.
Damage values added!
There was a thread like this but it seems to have vanished.
The idea was to have a sort of flare/pop gun that fires what was essentially a single shard from the old shard bomb mechanic, but only one in a controlled direction. This shard would inflict a random status (amongst fire, freeze, shock, poison, and stun) but the status could be locked for around ten seconds by using the charge. The projectiles had the same distant ranging ability but not particularly high damage, making it excel at sniping while being an actual gun. This would have reintroduced the sniping part of the old shard bombs, which would redeem the change for people who used it for that, while creating a new weapon which is not simply a reskin of something and has a lot of versatility and utility in general. It had a one or two shot clip and the charge attack was only to change the status setting.
I thought I had it in my index or bookmarks but it seems to be missing. It was probably deleted for trying to make Three Rings seem sympathetic to its player base while making something original when they could make new accessories or sell discounted energy packs.