Forums › English Language Forums › General › The Arsenal

Search

The concept of dominant weapons and the most applicable set of weapons

23 replies [Last post]
Mon, 10/15/2012 - 10:52
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

So I had an observation- weapons like brandishes, electron vortex, and status bombs tend to make other weapons redundant. Why use catalyzers when you can just suck all of the slags up and beat them with glacius in 2 seconds? Sure, catalyzers can be better over all in terms of damage if your party uses and practices with them enough, but its much easier to plan your strategy around others using anything.

What I'm getting at is:
-Players are lazy and don't want to create custom loadouts every level that are perfect; they use loadouts
-Players must choose gear that is optimal for a large number of situations
-Some weapons will cut off the damage of other weapons by killing specific weapons, while others will "work" to deal damage regardless of a strategy.
-Knights are NEVER challenged to work together unless faced with new content, or "mysterious challenges" where they don't know what they're fighting.

This translates roughly into a stag hunt game, with little incentive to branch out and reach for the stag, even while communicating with your friends... though depending on how you view success may fall more in line with the prisoner's dilenma in that some players view their own success over their friend's as a bonus... that is to say that a mentality of "I killed the most; thus I am the greatest" takes hold over "We dealt the most damage as a party; we are the greatest."

Examples of collusion between players-
-Ice strategy which includes: Biohazard, Neutralizer, Glacius, Triglav, shivermist buster, blitz needle (and friends), dread venom striker, wild hunting blade, warmaster rocket hammer, and hail driver (Freeze+Repeatedly charge attack; control crowds to control menders)
-Knockback strategy which includes: Polaris, Supernova, Biohazard, Neutralizer, Nitronome (and friends), volcanic pepperbox, valiance, leviathan blade (Focus on controlled knockback; stick together using blast bombs to shield while pushing away with other things, be courteous)
-Poison strategy which includes: Venom veilor, Ash of Agni, Voltaic tempest, stagger storm, your party knowing the effects of poison and acting on that knowledge (Leave menders alive. No menders? Use ash of agni/VT)
-Vortex+charge strategy, which includes: Graviton/Electron vortex, 5* brandishes, 5* troikas, blitz needle (will override other strategies and clash with them)

Examples of failed collusion between players-
-Fire/Shock during ice strategy; usually fire.
-Lack of knowledge regarding poison (killing menders)
-Bringing items that don't fit into the strategy used

So given these things, the most logical choice is to go for a strategy- specifically vortex strategy. Why vortex strategy? Because its unrealistic to expect your party to always have things for a particular strategy, or even to say "lets use ice" or to look at your gear and plan for it. So you go for gear that fits into the strategy known as "Me versus the world", which has a relatively low payoff.

Me versus the world strategy:
-Brandishes
-Autoguns
-Ash of Agni
-Warmaster Rocket Hammer
-Nitronome and co
-Dark retribution
-Voltaic tempest
-Polaris
-Argent peacemaker/Sentenza

Of those, we can eliminate the ones that people will get mad at you for using due to how obstructive they are to the other party member's "me vs the world strategy"-
-Brandishes
-Autoguns
-Ash of Agni
-Warmaster Rocket Hammer
-Dark retribution
-Voltaic tempest
-Argent peacemaker/Sentenza

Then, if one party member decides to collude while the others don't, she will be forced to use weapons that collaborate with other's me vs the world strategy-
-Electron vortex
-Shivermist buster
-Haze bombs

But lets go a step further- we can eliminate most of the strategies, as your party is using things that go against them. So we arrive at a dominant and forced strategy- being vortex+charge, or, in some cases we are left with no decision but to use our own "me vs the world strategy". And that is why bringing the item "electron vortex" is at what I see to be the nash equilibrium of what to bring.

To design a loadout around it, we'll start with things that boost the stats that we'll be using most. This is referring of course, to chaos cloak+hood. For more specific levels, we'll want to boost our defenses up for fighting specific enemies. This usually only happens in danger missions however.

For weapons, we'll need to start with electron vortex, and then build up from there. We'll want things that are good for killing things in the vortex, as well as things that are alone, all very quickly. Graviton vortex will also be needed for shock levels. So we'll want to add on two brandishes- one being acheron, the other being elemental. These are best for taking on things that are alone as well as in the vortex. Vortex fails at fighting fiends, so we'll want to make a piercing sword or gun of our choice for fighting those. This is preference... although we'll want to lean toward blitz due to its nature in regards to FSC and the vortex bomb in question. We'll also want a bomb for fiends, if we have slots for it. For our last slot, we'll ant something that we can strafe with through bullet hell.. this of course, would be an alchemer. Why an alchemer? Because it gets a boost from ctr, while argent peacemaker does not. We'll want to go for magma driver for fiend levels, and another for FSC/fire levels.

For a shield, we'll want to get something strong and durable. This doesn't matter so much, as long as we choose one that makes sense for the occasion, and make a few to defend against various things. Preferably, we'll want to start with a plate shield and go for volcanic plate first, and then wait until we're done to make others.

For trinkets, we'll want to first max out our strategy regarding charge time reduction, when we've got time we'll craft additional ones for our blitz needle if applicable.

-Chaos cloak
-Chaos hoodie

-Volcanic plate shield (Eventually others too)

-Electron vortex/Graviton vortex/Scintillating sun shards (Electron vortex fist)
-Acheron/Blitz (Acheron first)
-Elemental brandish (glacius first; would be voltedge, but we'll need our k coins for e- vortex recipe first)
-An elemental alchemer (magma first)

-Bomb charge time reduction (Later handgun CTR)
-Sword charge time reduction (Later handgun Damage/ASI)

So you may be wondering "Why don't people use this if it is what game theory dictates?", and this is for a number of reasons.
-Chaos set appears risky on the front, and is in fact, risky. People don't like this, and so hold back.
-Searching for defense, players find their way to vog and skolver sets for the obvious reasons.
-Vog/Skolver (or other armor sets) dictate using different weapons- vog for gran faust/da/toothpics, and skolver for brandishes... in both occasions, argent peacemaker/sentenza will prove useful... obviously, different trinkets will follow.
-The misconception that specialization is greater than hybridization (Though specialization in an area can be effective if colluding)
-The setup above is not generated for use by all players; it is generated for use by those of us skilled enough to use it. Lag reduces "skill" in this case.

So what do you guys think?

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 12:22
#1
Aureate's picture
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

tl;dr

But yeah, I get what you mean. There are the fun weapons, which are decent to use and have a decent damage output, like Dread Venom Striker, and then there are the weapons with the ridiculously high damage output, which are the ones that actually get used, like Combuster. I don't see an awful lot of people packing Vortices in general clockworks play, though, although I admit I don't see an awful lot of people in general clockworks play full stop.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 12:31
#2
Bopp's picture
Bopp
try a simpler version

This problem is complicated for a number of reasons. For one thing, it's hard to know the payoffs in such a game, due to "noise" such as personal preference, skill, lag/latency, etc. In your argument, you make many logical leaps. So I think that you should attempt a simpler problem.

Your argument would be simpler and easier to understand if you focused only on weapons. These are the major controllers of play style. Armor and UVs are secondary issues, so consider omitting them.

The game is actually in multiple stages: selecting weapons to craft/buy, selecting a weapon loadout at the start of the level, and selecting which of those weapons to use at any given instant during a fight. You're focused on the second stage? But the payoffs are more naturally described in terms of the third stage, where the tactics happen. So how do the two stages relate? For simplicity, you might want to start with just two players.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 19:29
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I still cannot help but feel that I am inevitably correct.

Mon, 10/15/2012 - 20:58
#4
Bella-Donna's picture
Bella-Donna
Support

I tried being support, bringing shiv, Callahan for it's attack cancel, WRH for when my party dies and Polaris for the turrets. I found Callahan works great for supporting other players, unfortunately my support was not appreciated. I was even told "stop using shiv!" Despite the fact that it kept that person from not during every two seconds. After this, getting end game items and basically having FSC ruined by it's overly awesome sl counterpart... I have decided, screw helping others, i am going to have fun. If they won't appreciate my help, why should I try to go out of my way. I'll bring what I enjoy using. Biohazards, Callahans, WRH and whatever I feel like everywhere!

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 04:37
#5
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
Support is great fun, but you

Support is great fun, but you can't just rely solely on shiver. Try taking a full haze support loadout with a mix of VV, Shiv, AoA, VT, AoA, vortexes etc and play around with that. Don't aim to kill, just aim to make it easier for everyone else to kill. Works great and the team loves it. But then again, what Fehz says still applies, as (unless you're with a team you know, such as a guild team) folk still don't think to work with you or appreciate what you're doing, and just aim to kill and tend to be blind to the assist.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 05:50
#6
Bopp's picture
Bopp
nope

I still cannot help but feel that I am inevitably correct.

I can't determine whether you're correct or not, because you haven't stated the problem clearly. Here are some questions, to entice you:

1. Is "everybody uses Brandishes" a strategy profile? (I ask this because I don't exactly understand what the game is, that you're analyzing.)

2. If so, is "everybody uses Brandishes" an equilibrium?

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 06:38
#7
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Like you said, there are multiple stages to weapon selection- first which loadouts you will create, and second which weapons you'll actually bring. Brandishes are an equilibrium in that they will allow you to succeed regardless of which strategy your friends are using, even if it steps on your friends' strategy. Brandishes are not the only equilibrium, its a chunk of weapons... I left some out, but I named most of them. That would refer to the "Me vs the world" strategy.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 07:20
#8
Derpules's picture
Derpules
Problem

Stag Hunt problems (and Prisoner's Dilemmas) involve a measurably better outcome if parties co-operate.

Vortex + charge is not a measurably better outcome than four Brandishes.

Is it better in some respects? Yes: when things go right, it leads to the fastest completion time.

Is it measurably better, overall? No. Optimal completion time is not the only measure of outcome desirability. Another obvious measure is safety/likelihood of success. A party set-up which leads to a slower completion time, on average, is not evidently superior to a party set-up which leads to the fewest party wipes, on average.

Where you have multiple measures of desirability, a simple SH/PD analysis is insufficient. You need a more complex model.

And yes, you do address these (and other) reasons in the last part of your post, but you frame them as answers to the question, "Why don't people use this if it is what game theory dictates?" This is a misapprehension. They are really reasons in support of the conclusion that your proposed loadout isn't what game theory dictates at all.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 07:21
#9
Poopsie's picture
Poopsie
just my 2 cent

Been playing alt at KoA with this loadout: blazebrand, blitz needle, chaos cowl, chaos cloak, swiftstrike buckler (no/not significant uv mostly). Sometimes, I switched blazebrand to silly 1 star weapon for heat. When people asked, I usually answered only use blitz needle anyway.
I've experienced either getting kicked or people just leave after seeing me on some occasions.
Though some other people would treat me just as like any other player with more appropiate gears, only one or two persons praises me like whoa man you got vh ctr (well, duh, I think they are being silly and didn't notice the negative fire resistance). Glad that I don't disappoint them.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 11:30
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

And perhaps we could develop a more complex model? This was intended to be a starting point; being my initial thoughts.

After all, I'm aware that there is some kind of urge to move beyond the now classic arguments regarding "which brandish" and "why does winmillion suck" type topics within the arsenal.

I'm looking to develop, with help, a near perfect guide to weapons with things like this. But there is so much complexity, and so many opinions and so many other factors.

The reason why vortex+brandish is the best is because it is the most likely scenario leading to a strategy that involves your party working as a unit rather than as a mob of angry players... and strategies are for the most part superior to individuals, like I said.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 11:46
#11
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
Double-post~

*hug*

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 11:45
#12
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
The problem is just everyone

The problem is just everyone rushing for the same styles. If you've got 4 swordies in there, they'll all have likely similar weapons (to suit the theme) and be trying to do their own things, which results in mob mentality. What goes an extraordinarily long way to helping create group effort is division of classes; actually having people with different styles.
Swordy, gunner, bomber and hybrid = perfect.

When everyone doesn't have a sword, everyone's forced to work alongside with their personal roles and from there teamwork comes naturally. Some of the best runs I've had are with a bomb/sword hybrid dropping vortexes while I drop hazes, another runnin' around stabbing everything and a gunner taking care of anything far away or trojan-shaped~

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 00:15
#13
Lukehandkooler's picture
Lukehandkooler
Enter the 28 chambers of the

Enter the 28 chambers of the SK. over 3 million knights and very few styles purely the same.

~Luke

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 05:09
#14
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
very few styles purely the

very few styles purely the same.

Ever heard the term "Wolver/Skolver Clone"? I think you'll find a vast number of people have very similar styles, certainly similar enough to cause my aforementioned problem.

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 16:13
#15
Lukehandkooler's picture
Lukehandkooler
Brady

This is very true. I had neglected to consider LD where itwould hold its truest I guess because I rarely play.

~Luke

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 17:20
#16
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

This thread seeks to find an ultimate for the clockworks. Pvp is another matter, but still a good example of what we're looking for.

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 17:34
#17
Il-Mono-Il's picture
Il-Mono-Il
When i run with my

When i run with my guildmates, we rock w/ 2 vortex + 2 brandishes. Works very well, but sometimes we go for vortex + 3 brandishes. Is faster, IMO...

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 13:48
#18
Seiei's picture
Seiei
Funny I read this Fehzor, I

Funny I read this Fehzor, I have been in a similar train of thought. You closely described my ideal run equipment. A note though, WRH is a great weapon, has the highest dps of all swords (using shield cancelling after second swing) and the second swing lunge is invaluable to avoid damage. As a bonus it leaves a third swing as an option. I love this weapon, invaluable.

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 14:21
#19
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

WRH does not work with electron vortex nearly as well as brandish charges do though... it is still usable, but it isn't as optimal when used with vortex compared to brandishes.

Sat, 10/20/2012 - 15:28
#20
Darkbrady's picture
Darkbrady
I still think that Suda is a

I still think that Suda is a beast with vortexes~

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 12:06
#21
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Suda is a beast with vortexes, but brandishes are still better in that they can be used to take down turrets. The elemental alchemer could be used to this end as well, although there are situations in which you would want to take out turrets with a sword, albeit rarely. Brandishes also synergize with each other, even if it is combuster/glacius. No, you can't stack ice/fire, but yes, you can get better crowd control by having one person burn half the enemies while you freeze others. You can also freeze a mender and then leave it for the fire brandish guy to charge on... lots of possibilities.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 12:45
#22
Bopp's picture
Bopp
some of us

there are situations in which you would want to take out turrets with a sword, albeit rarely

Some of us take out turrets with swords (usually Combuster, Acheron, or WRH) extremely frequently. Often I'm not carrying a gun. Sometimes I'm carrying a gun, but the approach is safe enough that I don't bother switching away from my sword. When eight rocket puppies spawn in an arena, I try to mow them down with a sword before they wake up.

However, I must admit that a Nova Driver with huge CTR and damage bonus is also great fun against turrets. Pop. Pop. Pop.

Sun, 10/21/2012 - 15:05
#23
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Most of the time, taking out turrets is best done with a gun... however, if there are many turrets, it is best to have a sword, like you said. Most situations it won't matter too much whether you gun them or not, but it is nice to have a good sword to take out turrets with, hence the brandish.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system