Suggestion for Guardian Archetype, a neato Mechanic (Should be simple), and it might be balance.
Vie, 10/19/2012 - 21:11
It's been a while...
Here's what I'm gonna talk about: my ideas for improving the 'Guardian' archetype. Mostly because I'd play all day as one.
It was pointed out to me that generally, the tradeoff in most games is speed for power. But since speed and power have already been thrown together, that option is taken. So, I have another path for these guardians: to make other team members safe, and save their butts when they fall down.
The question is then: how in the world could this be done? How can a knight keep people safe, and save other knights when they stumble? How are 'ya gonna make a tank-medic?
The first part is easy, the second is not -too- easy... Well, that depends actually.
First off, we accept that guardians are gonna get hit a lot, and not do very much damage at all. Then we make it so that they can still attack even when hit. After that, because we know that they're gonna be hurting badly, we give them a TON of defender. And I mean enough to be taking a half a pip of damage any average source.
Weapons that are defensive oriented should also have a health, or defensive bonus to compensate the low damage or speed.
Then we have to help them to be able to revive anyone that falls down, and give them the endurance to be taking the heat from hoards of zombies after it's team mates. That means health. I'd suggest that the plate armors have a base health bonus of 12, each piece. Ancient having 18 and the same defense as a plate line. That combined with the defense would make a guardian someone that forgoes survival by the blade, for survival by the shield.
Now the problem is that even if you -have- the defenses to survive, eventually you will fall. Not to mention that I said that a guardian would be taking the heat off, and Saving the butts of your team members. This next bit is the simple in thought, possibly
hard to code and debug bit.
I suggest introducing a 'threat level' to all weapons, and a 'threat level bonus' to some armors. Think about it: firing off an Antigua is not as flashy or downright scary as an Iron Slug. Putting this into the game would not only aid the Guardian archetype, (I'll tell you why, and explain the basics of the mechanic in a moment.) But would let players choose whether they want to use a high threat nitonome, or a lower threat SSS. You can also have it scale with the stratum like weapon damage.
I think that extra level of gameplay would be simple enough to new players, but complex enough to make a difference for veterans.
Now, as to how it would actually work. Each time a weapon connects with a foe, a counter goes up, and monsters within a certain area of the impact would have their counters go up by half that amount. Each monster would keep track of the Damage dealt by each source-including other monsters. It doesn't have to take up much coding space, infact I don't think it would. Have the monsters either start with a point on their counters for each knight, or with none... For monsters like jelly cubes. I'm sure you could deduce that the knight or monster with the highest number on their counter would be the one to attack.
I would suggest starting with low threat weapons. Let's take one of the sneaky vile strikers, for example. Each hit would raise the target's counter by 2, and the surrounding monster's counters by 1. And a flashy, defense oriented blade like the sudaruska would raise it by 20 per for every for it hits. Where-as the striker can only hit two at best.
Wearing different armors can also give a bonus (I'd suggest a multiplier) to the threat made. A Virulisk suit giving a negative bonus to the threat, while a plate line gives a positive bonus.
There are sure to be consequences to these things... Like zombies getting fed up with trojans and betraying it. But I think that overall, this would be a near thing to have in the game.
~Tsu
Vie, 10/19/2012 - 21:51
#2
Plates need to be credit to team
Complete support to buffing "Guardian"/Plate lines, no support to this massive buff:
"plate armors have a base health bonus of 12, each piece. Ancient having 18 and the same defense as a plate line"
This would be okay for Lockdown, where everyone needs like ten more health to take one extra hit, but where balance matters first this is too enormous of an advantage. It can have, say, one or two more bars of defense than stuff like Wolver/Gunslinger/SDemo/etc., but to have more than double and nearly triple is excessive. Before getting into rebalancing Plate lines, how about some Lockdown rules:
In Lockdown, while wearing any of the following armor (helmet or torso):
- Wolver lines
- Gunslinger lines
- SDemo lines
- Chroma lines
- Chaos line
- Drake lines
- Angelic lines
- Seerus masks
- Fencing Jacket
- Cyclops Cap
You may not equip any trinkets with the following effects:
- Health
- Defense (against damage)
- Resistance (against statuses)
Also, while wearing any of the following helmets or torsos:
- Vitasuit (and all variants)
- Emberbreak line
- Frostbreaker line
- Circuit Breaker line
- Plate lines (including Ancient)
- Jelly line
- Skelly line
- Divine and Grey Feather lines
- Cobalt lines
You may not use trinkets with the following effects:
- Bomb damage or charge time reduction
- Gun damage, attack speed, or charge time reduction
- Sword damage, attack speed, or charge time reduction
Defense is defense and offense is offense.
Outside of Lockdown a little more health would be nice, but I would prefer something more helpful for your team. Sure, if you have more health you can share more when you revive someone, but that goes back to the whole "medic" playstyle no one uses.
Troika seems to be the only weapon appropriate for a Plate-heavy-weapons-knight kind of player. Iron Slug is there, but not all that impressive and apparently will be buffed sometime. I tried rereading the threat system several times and I still have no idea what you want it to do. Is it just making Troikas and Magnuses get a bonus for being Troikas and Magnuses? Does having a higher threat level on your weapon make you a prioritized target? Are enemies attacking each other because they have their own levels? I think it says being more threatening means being targeted over your teammates, but that would lead to bait and switch tactics which bombers tend to use to their advantage already. Why should everyone else get one of the few advantages bombers have, even if not all bombers know about it? How about we just give Troikas a little normal defense for the user while active (2* gives 1 bar normal, 3* gives 1.5 bars, 4* gives 2 bars, 5* gives 2.5 bars)?
And now back to sleep. Unless I have more nightmares about flying porcupines speaking Italian while tickling those innocent heptagons into vomiting their internal organs.
Vie, 10/19/2012 - 23:27
#3
Heh...
Well, I thought you'd say that's too much health, An I'll state: all numbers are not final, they ALL need to be tested and balanced.
The reason Why I said you need alot of health and defense on these, is because they have such harsh repercussions. You all but give up the ability to deal damage, or avoid taking damage. Insane UVs aside. And the Ancient? Well, OOO has stated that Speed boosts are insanely powerful. And they are. So speed detriments are insanely, well, detrimental.
No, this is not Based around Troika and Slugs, surprisingly. The intent here was to give another look into the shieldbearer bit... and make it worth while. Like I said, it would affect all weapons, like a Bar under Speed showing it's threat level. Sneaky weapons would have less, flashier and more Defencive weapons'd have more. Like, you could choose between a DA and a GF... the DA would be a Bit flashyer and has a Much more threatening charge, because it hits more.
As to the actual implementation, Think of each monster having a Little box with Numbers above it's head. Everytime you hit a monster, the Number goes up. when the other monsters see that, their numbers go up as well, though not as much as the One being hit. If you have a Higher number then what your friend has, then it will target you. Basically, if you scare the Living crap out of something, it, and all of the other monsters will want to get rid of you... or run, if they're a mender.
Also, Normal defense is useful? since when?
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 10:29
#4
I don't want classes.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 11:19
#5
Tsubasa - A little snipe told
Tsubasa - A little snipe told me that you should be pretty happy with something that Spiral HQ is developing :)
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 11:34
#6
^WHHHHAAAAA????!!!!!
Another one?
he must just be bored.
note: he can talk to birds! right?
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 12:05
#7
YESSSSSSS
This is extremely wonderful.... >:3
I shall do my best to help! ...by derping around with Ideas! ^-^; Heheh.
But thanks, Nick. This is some fun news!
------
Addison D, I'm not trying to make them into set classes. You still can mix and match things... You'd just be combining benefits to an extreme, like a Wolver clone. Instead of DAMAGEDAMAGEDAMAGE, you can Scare the living daylights out of things. Throw a Plate line in with a Merc suit, and you can threaten better then normal, and still be nimble, still deal damage.
also, Incoming Ideas for existing gear! Basically throwing Threat levels that might work, as well as Putting modifiers on things... Maybe changing weapons mechanics for more threat generation.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 12:36
#8
Nick
You are a tease.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 13:22
#9
I think I can guess.
It's threat, isn't it? It's got to be threat. There is no other explanation.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 13:27
#10
Wouldn't this turn love puppies into masochists?
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 13:31
#11
Ghret, the game already has
Ghret, the game already has malice mechanics. Unless you mean malice mods on armour in which case...well, seems more complicated than just making them better by..say, adding more hp or somethin' simple.
But then again, they are known for takin' a long time to make small changes...
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 13:35
#12
I is want.
And @Ghret I made this thread a while ago. It's not the same thing but I still would like it to happen.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 14:16
#13
Let me refine what I have said.
By "threat", I mean the mechanic of aggro i.e. hit a monster hard enough and the others will come for your hide.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 14:18
#14
Derp
Yay! I've been wanting something defensive. I don't want to be a wolver derp anymore.
I'm a bit confused on the threat thing. I'm not sure if I missed something but what does it do? Is it aggro?
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 15:31
#15
Group aggro isn't in all
Group aggro isn't in all games. In fact, I don't see too many games with a well-done aoe/group aggro mechanic, but SK does have individual aggro mechanics.
@Toxic: aggro is when there's, say 4 people attacking the one monster; typically whoever deals the most damage develops the most aggro, which directs that monsters attacks to that player. This is most noticeable when you have a group of people attacking Vana. Typically the fastest CTR blitz will get his aggro first and he'll spend his time chasing them.
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 16:03
#16
When I say "classes" I am referring to alternative behaviors for defense (class mods in LD) - if players are incapable of dodging hits, they will be forced into taking damage because the shield can break. And that takes some of the skill out of it, putting more reliance on gear.
As for the "threat level" thing, I have no clue what you want the counter to do. Yes, it's counter goes up. But what in the world is the effect of the counter?
Sáb, 10/20/2012 - 16:38
#17
Derp
@Brady I knew what aggro is, but thanks. I didn't understand what the counter meant and was wondering if it was a new aggro system.
Dom, 10/21/2012 - 12:18
#18
Well, when the counter goes up...
the monster goes after you. If you have a higher number than the other knights. Or they'll run away and attack the Weakest knight. Or something else, It's up to the Developers to decide what happens.
And yeah, this is more about Threatening a Whole Group, instead of one monster at a time, like it is now.
Dom, 10/21/2012 - 18:34
#19
Hmm. More complex aggro and intelligence would certainly spice things up, but take away a lot of existing tactics and mechanics for the game. IDK if it's really such a good idea...
Lun, 10/22/2012 - 04:05
#20
That bird....I like that
That bird....I like that bird.
Lun, 10/22/2012 - 17:16
#21
i like the idea.
i think this idea should be combined with a miniboss idea. like a commander of a small group taht we could meet randomly in an arena or somewhere else in the clock works. if the mini boss had some kind of control over the mob while fighting the knights in live battle. i dont meant ai, i mean preset orders that were pregramed. there could be severeal that way it could confuse the knights whats is hapening. meeting the mini - boss would be set to random and not be set to meet it at the end of the elevator or in an actual set field. it could bevery intresting if this could be done.
Mar, 10/23/2012 - 03:59
#22
The unsung plate line lullaby.
The 'monsters goes for the weakest player' idea sounds interesting, might make things very unstable, or it might not. Enemies might become a lot easier targets for the stronger players, and the weak ones can just kite them wherever they want (just right off the top of my head).
Intricate/better AI is fancy stuff though, so I'm all for it in that sense.
Luguirus team-shield is also a pretty cool idea, but should be kept very experimental if anyone was to try and implement something like that I think. More or less like the speed sets I guess.
Not sure what I think about the whole threat-thing though. Seems like a very big change, game-mechanic wise, but wouldn't add much more than teaching enemies to fear certain things, which is used in many games already.
As for Nicks comment; it's nice to know that you guys are working on more technicalities in the game, and not just fancy furniture, promotionals and whatnot. Plate lines could use a little update on certain points (still 'rocking' with the sleep weakness for example), and the ancient plate armour would have to have a real overhaul before I, personally, would consider it useful in any way. So yea, thanks for that.
Vie, 10/26/2012 - 08:12
#23
N-N-N-NECROOOO B-BUMPO!
not necessarily aggro.
more like wits over brawl. even thou they have both.
well what happened was a fluke.
We were doing a T3 Graveyard and when we reach the elevators, a squadron of Phantoms ambushed us.
like seriously ambushed us, we didnt see it coming, they were hiding in the walls and they took half our HP off.
now as annoying as that was, we need more of it. They were playing smart. We actually gave up and made a beeline to elevators.
Lun, 10/29/2012 - 21:50
#24
hum-buggery
So, I said I'd do something Here...
Also, If you increase the defenses... (Which I strongly Recommend) It would be a wise Idea to increase the Amount of defense seen.
Armor & Helms
Plate Lines:
-Sleep Weakness? Errr, no more please.
-Automatic resist to knockback if you can...
-Attack Speed Decrease: Med per piece
-Threatening: Med per piece (Would increase the Threat Generated by... 25%?)
-Health bonus + 10 Per piece (I am trying to make a Ballpark Balance here...)
-Ironmight Covers all Defenses. Normal and Piercing Have the same value... Somewhere at about 1.5 times the max you can currently See. The other three would have about the same "75% ish of a Full bar of defense" that Wolvers and the like have.
-Ironmight Resists Stun by 5 Units per piece (So maximum with both) It also resists Shock by the same amount. Weak to fire by the same amount.
-Volcanic Plate Covers all defenses, Similarly to the Ironmight. But with Elemental Mirroring the Normal defense.
-Volcanic resists Fire and stun by 5 Per piece... But is weak to cold by the same amount.
Ancient Plate:
-Erm... again with the Sleep please? It's funny, but I wanna make room for the Weakness I'll tack on it... Tsu gives a quick shrug.
-pl0x have KB Resist?
-Attack speed Decrease: Med per piece
-Movement Speed Decrease: Low per piece (Maybe Med, I have NO CLUE how a Med decrease would afect the Gameplay)
-Threataning: Med per Piece
-Health Bonus +16 Per Piece (You have to take into account that by the Easily available Penta Heart Trinkets that have been introduced, the Health bonus is pretty Moot. Not to mention that you have to rely on heart drops and the like to replenish health, unlike Defense... Which never goes down)
-Ancient Plate Covers all defenses, Keeping it's massive Amount of Normal defense while all of the other 4 get about 80-85% of a Full Defense bar.
Ancient Plate resists Stun, Cold, and Poison by 5 Units, But is weak to Curse and Shock by the same amount.
Almirian Crusader Armor:
-Bring the Shadow defense up to where the Normal is at, and Throw piercing in there too; at the Shadow's old value.
-Fire resist is Dropped more, but the Curse Raises by the same... I'm thinking to -4/4, respectively. Add some Cold resist at those old levels (3 units? O.o)
-Threatening: Low per piece
-Health Bonus +6
Arcane Salamander:
-The damage bonuses are now Med
-Sneaky: High Per Piece (Lowers threat Generation by ~37.5% :P )
-The fire resist drops to +3 (Instead of +4) and Freeze and Shock resist are boosted to +3 as well
Armor (And Helm!) Of The Fallen:
-Sneaky: Low per piece
-ASI: Med per piece
-Fiend Damage Penalty: High (Ya mang! Yu trad Speed against errything fur maaaad penalty 'ta those Blimy sukers!)
Azure Guardian:
-Copy it's Piercing defense for the other Defenses and leave it.
Bomber Line:
-Bombastic: Threatening: Low Per Piece
-Bombastic: Fire resist -4 Units
-Volcanic: No change
-Volcanic: Freeze resist -4 Units
-Mad Bomber: Threatening: Med per piece (Crazies Do tend to gather attention....)
-Mercurial Demo: Sneaky: Low per piece (Run so fast they won't eve know what hit 'em!)
Chroma Line:
-Salamander Gains Piercing Mirroring it's Elemental.
-Virulisk Gains Shadow Mirroring It's Piercing.
-All get High Damage Bonus per piece
-All get Their Respective Status resist raised to +5 per piece
-All get Sneaky: High per piece
Cloak Line:
-Divine Mantle: Threatening: Low per piece
-Divine mantle: Fiend Damage Bonus: med per piece
-Grey Feather: Gains Freeze resist. All resists are at +5 units.
-Grey Feather: Add Shadow mirroring it's Elemental
-Grey Feather: Health Bonus +6
-Grey Feather: Threatening: Med per Piece
-Chaos Cloak: No change
Dragon Scale:
-Max out the Elemental, Piercing, and add Shadow to mirror.
-Shock resist is added. All resists are at +5 units.
-WARNING, attempting to melee can hurt. A LOT.
Radiant Silvermail:
-I'd Loooove to see a Helm to match it... So would many others.
-The Elemental and Piercing defense should be set to x2 the Currently seen max.
-Add Shock resist. Boosts resists to +5
Heavenly Iron Armor:
-Fiend damage: Med per piece
-Shadow and Normal are set to current seen Max.
-Freeze resist +4
Ice Queen Armor:
-Piercing at x2 the Currently seen max
-Stun and freeze set to +5 units
-More jiggly, PLEASE! :O
Gunslinger Line:
-Deadshot: Sneaky: Low per Piece
-Deadshot: Undead Damage: High per piece
-Justifier: Sneaky: Low per piece
-Justifier: Shock weakness -4 units
-Nameless: Threatening: Low per piece
-Nameless: Stun Weakness -4
-Shadowsun: Threatening: Low per Piece
-Shadowsun: Freeze Weakness -4
Mercurial Mail:
-Sneaky: Med per piece
-MSI Med? Again, NO CLUUUUUE How that'd work.
-Elemental defense is gained, and all defenses are matched to the Current Piercing
Royal Jelly:
-Normal defense and Piercing is raised to 1.5 the visible max
-Sleep... lololol, replaced with Shock resist... Both resists Raised to +5 units
-Threatening: Med per Piece
-Health Bonus +6
Wolver Line:
-Skolver: Threatening: Low
-Skolver: Fire resist -4 units
-Vog: Sneaky: Low per piece
-Vog: Freeze resist -4 units
-Snarby: Threatening: Low per piece
-Snarby: Stun resist -4 Units
Valkyrie:
-Shadow defense and Normal defense are raised by a Bit
-Fiend Damage: High Per piece
-Freeze resist +4
Dread Skelly:
-Defenses are raised to 1.5 the visible Max
-Threatening: Med per Piece
-Resists are set to +5
And that's all for the Armors...
Mar, 10/30/2012 - 07:29
#25
Woah woah waoh
Triple and quadruple damage reisistances? I think that should be a unique thing for the iron might.
I think I would go along with only some of these resistance changes. Shadow on Dragon scale? Even if it has no normal, it's no glass cannon. I think it is really good, to tell the truth.
Mar, 10/30/2012 - 11:58
#26
Perhaps unrelated...
Am I the only who thinks that, out of anything, Sleep resistance should be on armors that are supposed to be uncomfortable, while Sleep weakness should be on armors that more comfortable? I think Jelly and Plate are sort of mixed up.
Mar, 10/30/2012 - 17:23
#27
Sooo...
Add sleep to Grey Feather?
>:3
Mar, 10/30/2012 - 22:13
#28
Mhmmm...
I'm thinking maybe something kinda...
What if having over-the-top normal defense value causes a knight to have boosted defense when using a broken shield? (take less damage while using a broken shield)
This would be incentive for people to use normal equipment.
--Off topic--
Why can't I smack an enemy with my shield and do damage .-. What is my giant shield for? being passive? Especially the Barbarous Thorn Shield, why can't one apply the pointy edge to the enemy instead of just bouncing the enemy away at no damage. The Trojans have the pushy ability+damage .-.
--/Off topic--
Uhhh I stop thinking because I probably go more off topic.
Lun, 11/05/2012 - 01:09
#29
Wait, hold on a moment here...
One of the biggest reasons why I like Spiral Knights despite not liking other MMOs is because it's a more skill-based game. My concern with both the addition of the Guardian Archetype and the threat system is that they could turn SK into more of a numbers game. I really don't want it to go down that route. I want the game to stay more about skill in combat than loadouts or numbers. Also, as far as I can tell, SK's uniqueness in this regard is part of why it's successful.
Is there anyone in this thread who agrees with me here?
Lun, 11/05/2012 - 01:30
#30
I agree with you in
I agree with you in principle, Gametrekker, that skill should remain the key factor here, but I disagree that aggro will affect it. SK does already have an aggro system implemented; it's just very basic is all. All Tsubasa is suggesting is to expand that system and allow it to be tweaked with by the player via stat bonuses, to improve and encourage the very underwhelming tank-themed sets we have, as right now offensive sets can tank as much as the tank sets and draw all the aggro from the higher damage. With malice manipulation and a tank buff (or an offensive set debuff, which I prefer tbh) then we can have the tanks attacking and defending, while keeping aggro with low defence, while letting the flimsy dps'rs survive.
Currently we just have "the dps'rs who are also the tanks and support classes" which isn't a very good dynamic for an MMO, skill-based or otherwise. There's a reason the classes system is so popular in games, and although SK is classless in the sense that you can freely switch, there are still definitely classes in SK to be considered, and one of them has been heavily neglected to the point of notifying the authorities.
Lun, 11/05/2012 - 01:45
#31
I am
Excited
..
..
..
...and back
Lun, 11/05/2012 - 14:56
#32
+1
I absolutely love your threat level idea. It kind of sounds like the same thing as momentum. But either way I like the idea, your little list and the buff to guardian. Honestly, I would love to see the same thing happen with the recon class. I was thinking some speed increase boost to be used as if an assasin type class. Ah well, all we can do is keep helping out OOO come up with some ideas that arent completely overpowering in any way.
Lun, 11/05/2012 - 20:04
#33
!
"a tank buff (or an offensive set debuff, which I prefer tbh)"
Yeah, me too, But NOOOO... Not what all them clones what... Y-Y
and Dirt maker... I have added a Bit of a Recon class... THEM CHROMAS! If you look, just wearing a Full set Gives you a Maximum Sneaky Bonus... Meaning that even in a Group, where they're all wearing Wolver, Madbomber, and Gunner Gear (I forgot the "LULZ OMG MAX DMG AN ERRYTHING" Gunner armor.) You can smack anything as hard as you want, with out being singled out... (Unless some NICE Threat tweaking makes Greivers and Kats or something Go after the Least threat, and avoid the Greater threat.) THAT is sneaaaaky!
Mar, 11/06/2012 - 09:45
#34
+1
I agree with this entire idea!
Would make my Troika fun-times 20% more awesome.