Spiral Knights - LD balance, timeout change, Bomb-UV interpretation change

LD balance, timeout change, Bomb-UV interpretation change

21 replies [Last post]

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 08:33

Autofire

Alright...now...I'm going to be making a somewhat long post, so keep your hat on. :P

Lockdown balance
No, this isn't Nerfing Trollaris and Toothpick 101, it's Class balancing. Let me point out that if you can kill a striker easily, that isn't balance. Classes should fit over preferred play style. I'm going to note that I may not be fair in some nerfs/buffs is being I usually use recons.

Striker
- Change the HP decrease number to removing half the max HP. (Rounded up)
  The reason for this is because you see strikers in T1 with just 2 HP, while in T3 they get 20+. This is really OP, IMO. With this in effect, strikers only get half their boost through heart pendents, and always get tier based scaling.
- Cause striker boost to break when attacked while dashing.
  Giving them non-breaking shields is a bit too much. (While I'll try to keep this out of my suggestion/argument, players with higher pings (Slower) won't be able to hit the strikers often enough to be able to kill them currently.)
Guardian
- Make health bonus be a percentage increase.
  Like before, the 9 HP bonus is too much in T1, while it is too little in T3. Maybe something like a 33% HP increase? Someone pointed out that this would make every point of HP better. (Causing players to want Ancient Plate mail, so why not?)
- Make the shield stats change based on the tier level.
  Shields are very strong in T1 while possessing little strength in higher tiers. If this is done, maybe we could have some cosmetic changes for the tier based shield versions, too?
- Increase HP regen for higher tiers.
  It's clear by now that balancing a class in T1 won't work when you are in T3.
Recon
- Make HP scale.
  Once again. What about 10% increase this time?
- Remove the footprint effect.
  I'm certain this is what has undermined recons. Someone told me about the footprint thing, and they're right. It let's you know where the recon is easily once you get good at looking for prints. The ping idea is so that you know they are close, but you shouldn't be able to tell exactly where.

Also, as a bonus idea, those rank points you get from lockdown should be based on how many caps, defends, and the damage given by the knight in question, but not the team's point count. Doing that would turn the rank points into a measure of skill rather than a measure of activity.

EDIT: this could also help make matchups be more precise. It would help keep a pro team from being put to a newbie team as often as it currently is, by making sure that the average of rank points is about equal on each team. (Allowing for some difference. If there couldn't be any difference, we would be in serious trouble!)

Timeout change
You know that idle timeout thing? My question is: why is it in the game? Right now I don't really see why it is needed. It just makes for a hassle to get around. I know it is to keep people from leaving the elevator when they are at less then 10 mist, and then come back when they have more, but it's easy just to stick an eraser on the spacebar and get around the idle-timeout. This ends up punishing those who don't hold a key down somehow while allowing those who have come up with the idea skip right by.

There are two ways I can see (as of writing this) to fix it: remove the timeout altogether, or make it smarter to prevent constant key-depression. (What I've decided to call it)

EDIT: Here is another way to possibly fix it: /afk

Currently, /afk just causes an auto response message to be setup, but what about changing it? What about making it so, while /afk it set, you can't timeout (or it takes much longer to do so), but then you also don't gain mist? I know I would definitely benefit from this, but what does everyone else think?

(I'll add more in a bit.)

While I know I make mistakes, (we all do) please point them out in a polite manner.

EDIT: Cleaned up some things. Made alterations based on feedback.
EDIT2: Removed striker length reducing idea. Fixed a list grouping issue. Added Timeout system change idea. Changed ranking idea.

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 08:39

Klipik

Are you sure about this

Guardian only gets +3 HP in T2 and T1. Striker gets -3, and Recon gets ±0. I was about to make one of these threads too, So I'll just put it here:

-edit pending-

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 13:25

Autofire

Really?

Look at the wiki.

It says Guardians get +9 HP, Strikers get +3 bonus, and Recons get a +7 bonus. Do these change from tier to tier?

EDIT: my bad. The wiki says -3 for strikers. Not +3!

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 09:31

Zeddy

Balance, in my view, is where people on an equal skill level will have about an equal amount of difficulty getting kills, no matter what class each person is using.

Stopped reading right here.

If Lockdown was a 1v1 fighter game such as Street Fighter, then this would hold true. It's not, however. Lockdown is a team game where getting kills isn't even included in the objective. The medic in Team Fortress 2 should not have an equal amount of difficulty getting kills to the heavy. His job is to support the heavy so that he can get kills or hold a capture point easier.

Right now, strikers have the easiest time getting kills, and this is how things should be. Their role is to strike, after all. Guardians are there to support teammates in fights, preferably in areas close to capture points. They shouldn't have an easy time getting kills, but they should be able to survive and help their teammates survive. If we think of the three classes as rock, paper and scissors, then strikers are scissors while guardians (should be) rock. Scissors cut, rocks endure, paper traps. This leaves us to recons. The point of the defense-nulling thing recons have is to reduce the biggest advantage of guardians, which is their endurance. Strikers are too mobile to sneak up on, so recons are supposed to be the counter to guardians. In practice, this doesn't work out so well because guardians will spam haze bombs around the area they defend, and you can't really sneak into haze bombs without specialized armours.

I'll keep reading now.

-Decreasing health based on a percentage that also includes health from armours and trinkets is a very good idea. If the same applied to the guardian health bufff, they would have a very good reason to equip heart trinkets and even something wacky like ancient plate. This is how things should be.

-Breaking striker shields when hit by dashing makes sense. Breaking it without them using it isn't. The shield should be used to get out of dangerous situations, so breaking it with any hit just wouldn't be fair.

-The guardian shield is currently very strong in T1 and weak in T3. It should scale by tier, just like health and possibly striker boost length.

In addition, I also think guardians should not just get a health increase, but also receive buffs to defence. This makes them more endurant in general and effectively turn recons into a greater foil against guardians due to the defence-nullifying.

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 09:39

Luguiru

Does that health bonus/penalty change in different tiers? T1 has base values, T2 doubles the base, T3 quadruples the base? I never play Lockdown but that seems more sensible than having it be the same when damage drastically increases in higher tiers. In fact, everything should scale up by tier. Why would things be the same in all tiers if all tiers are not the same?

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 16:08

Autofire

@Zeddy

Hmm, I guess I worded that wrong. Your right, but you came off as being a bit, um, I don't know, rude?

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 16:17

Addisond

Striker-
First thing is a derp, I have no clue why they make it -3 (which doesn't even take effect in t3), instead of by percentage.

Already thought of this and agree.

Uh, I don't really want this. I think it'd be easier on OOO if they just had to balance all three tiers at once.

Guardian-
Derp is derp.

I didn't know it worked that way o.O. I personally feel that shields need to have some other method for defending themselves, something like shield bumping, and less shield strength, because right now they're just not fun to fight.

Uh, I think you get a sixth of a heart for t1, a third in t2 and a half in t3 (1/6, 2/6, 3/6), but I'm not totally sure about this. However, I really don't like how the guardian shield works; it takes no skill to use. You have to press ONE button and you give all your allies support, but on the other hand, the other two classes have something similair, strikers get increased cap speed (since they can get around quick), and recons get death marking. So yeah, OOO should keep these three skilless traits balanced (I'm not implying that death-marking takes no skill to do properly, rather that doing it improperly in a large fight works).

Recon-
Derp is herp.

I had no idea that that existed.

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 22:54

Darkbrady

I'm with Zeddy; there should

I'm with Zeddy; there should be a lot more to LD than just kills, such as time-wasting, defending, capping, supporting etc.

However, most of your suggestions I can agree with, especially about Boosters being breakable, as I've mentioned that many times in other posts myself.

Also, I know it's not a "class" change, but I'd go for offensive armour sets being nerfed defensively, as it really affects LD more than CWs and it looks like they're never going to give tank sets a buff. Right now tehre's no reason for Skolvers to be outtanking [every tank set] and it would go a long way to affecting, and balancing (imo) every class, as offensive sets are used in all classes.

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 23:36

Severage

@Autofire:

Yay. Sensible LD balancing.

"Cause striker boost to break when attacked while dashing.
Giving them non-breaking shields is a bit too much. (While I'll try to keep this out of my suggestion/argument, players with higher pings (Slower) won't be able to hit the strikers often enough to be able to kill them currently.)"

I have a question here. Currently, Striker's shields don't break, and they recharge all at once. Since you want to change this to just like all the other equipment, shouldn't they recharge like the others too? Instantly begin recharging but slowly recharge. If they get ping'd by a haphazard AP bullet and are disabled for like 3 seconds, I feel that's a bit much.

"Make the striker boost last 1 second in T1, 2 in T2, and 3 in T3. (Or something like that.)
I'm not sure about this one. This is more a loose idea, and I'm willing to remove it if it's a bad idea."

You'd have to make the Recon cloak last 5 seconds in T1, 6 in T2, and 7 in T3, or something like that, as well. If you want to make the equipment that only affects the user dynamic, it needs to be across the board. But I don't see any sense in this suggestion to be honest, no real reason to have it.

"Also, as a bonus idea, those rank points you get from lockdown should be based on how many caps, defends, and the damage given by the knight in question, but not the team's point count. Doing that would turn the rank points into a measure of skill rather than a measure of activity."

I have what I believe is a really important addition to this suggestion. To change matchmaking. Currently rank points affect absolutely NOTHING except your ranking on the boards. I think your ranking should affect the matchmaking and who gets put on whose team.

The reason I say this is, in most cases, in a group of 7 mediocre players and 1 pro, whichever team the pro is on will likely win. He's the game decider. But, when you have 4 pros and 4 mediocre players, as I've had many times in the past, it inexplicably puts all 4 pros on one team and the 4 mediocres on the other. It makes for a massacre game, repeated massacre games, and quitting players. It's happened to me before.

So when you have 4 pros who have (random number) 5,000 rank points each, and 4 mediocre players which might have a collective rank of 5,000, matchmaking would split the teams evenly.

Sure, the first days of each month (when rank points reset) might be hectic, but they wouldn't be any worse than what it is already. I really don't like the fact that it's totally random, like on a dice-roll, which team wins or loses because of matchmaking. If each game is evenly matched, it'll always be a challenge and always be fun.

+1 to everything else, especially HP percentage scaling.

~Sev

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 01:09

Darkbrady

Currently, Striker's shields

Currently, Striker's shields don't break, and they recharge all at once.

A change in them breaking shouldn't affect a charge change. Currently the charges are balanced fairly enough:
Strikers recharges all at once, can't be used at all. Recharges the fastest of all three powers.
Recons recharge slowly, a bit longer than strikers, but can be used during recharge but slows the charging time to do so.
Guardians recharge the slowest and can be used while recharging, but also doesn't use up charge for usage.

Allowing the booster to be broken won't affect that at all, but it gives non-strikers a snowballs chance in hell to escape/survive, especially when it's so easy for them to break others' powers and leave them completely useless.

You'd have to make the Recon cloak

Never saw that in the OP actually, but agreed. Tiers shouldn't affect durations or strengths of powers (except guardian shield) since it'd fundamentally affect gameplay, when it's meant to just be the same game but with different gear restrictions.

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 07:16

#10

Dendios

I want to understand...and note

"Make the striker boost last 1 second in T1, 2 in T2, and 3 in T3. (Or something like that.)"

Striker's boost lasts for 3 seconds in T3 , so you are not changing anything except for other Tiers ? Or do you mean something else with this sentence ?

Note : In my opinion if you nerf the Striker Class VERY MUCH , I think you have to nerf other Classes too not with same amount , but in a small amount so you don't make another class OP as you stated . I don't really want to see in the future a :

A Holy Tank

: Guardian

Super Ninja

: Recon

Speedy Ant

: Striker

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 07:38

#11

Autofire

@Xxdragneel (And others)

Like I said, it was just a short, simple idea. I am willing to remove it if it's silly. This isn't a suggestion which I am trying to make only for myself. It's for the players, so I will be changing it depending on how opinion sways it.

Valid points, though. I'm going to remove that.

EDIT: alright, I'm going to change some other things too. I don't know how to keep from "Overbalancing", and I would like several opinions on that.

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 07:45

#12

Darkbrady

Also, recons should be immune

Also, recons should be immune to AA. This should be obvious enough but it was never done. I'm not against AA as a concept and don't mind when people use it normally, but it seems like an incredibly, incredibly unfair way to cheat recons who are trying to hide and have no way to defend when their cloak is broken by a magical backwards 85% angle mid-combo from a teethpick.

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 12:39

#13

Severage

@Darkbrady:

Fair enough.

Cloaked recons, yes, should be "immune" to AA, if they aren't already. I've heard mixed opinions on it.

@OP:

Oh, and on the footprint thing...I've played LD for a long time and actually have never even noticed them until I read this thread. While it's true you shouldn't really be able to tell where the Recon is exactly, the footprints are hardly noticeable.

~Sev

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 13:21

#14

Darkbrady

I've heard mixed opinions on

I've heard mixed opinions on it.

Personally, I've only heard the one opinion. From my experience, I can often tell which players are good and not using AA, which players are not using AA and the people who kill me from impossible angles with AA. When someone is FF attacking around to find you and ou've been cloaked for a couple of secs, then they decide to combo and throw the first two ahead then the 3rd spins around 160 degrees and nails perfectly into your face. Either they became omniscience or AA kicked in.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 01:20

#15

Severage

@Darkbrady:

lol.

Well, I don't play Recon, nor do I use AA, so I really wouldn't know. I only read discussions on it a while back.

Of course, people who like AA will say one thing, and those who hate it will say another, regardless of what happens so...if you want testing done right...

~Sev

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 02:06

#16

Darkbrady

Well I'm neither here nor

Well I'm neither here nor there on AA really, I feel it's a part of the game and no one can really decide why they think it's a bad thing. Some will say AA is noobish because it's cheaty and unfair, some say it's because it's a crutch and should be left behind, others say AA is nooby because you actually play worse with it; until someone can convince me of one single, fair reason I'll just be like "idc".

What I do oppose is any mechanism in a game that allows auto-targetting of invisible players (I've seen this in other games too; plenty of MMOs have inviso classses, and it's universally agreed upon that being able to target invisible players is a pretty scummy thing to do, because it just defeats the point of hiding if people don't need to look).

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 20:28

#17

Autofire

*burp*

I mean bump!

AA is something that I'm not sure about. Sometimes people magically turn around and smack me, but I've never used AA so I don't know.

Thu, 11/08/2012 - 22:12

#18

Bacon-Strip

Clearing facts up with AT.

Clearing facts up with AT. Yes, it's called auto target.

1. Only works on visible, targetable enemies. When recons are cloaked AT has absolutely no effect. However, the instant you release your shield key, AT will find you if you are in approximately 180 degree angle from the direction the player is facing.

2. AT does NOT work while anyone is moving in ANY way with guns, however, it does work while moving with swords because it is impossible to swing and move at the same time.

In summary, if you are not visible, you're not being targeted. If you are being hit by guns while invisible, that's your fault. If you're being hit constantly by sword swings, that's your fault.

Has anyone ever stop to think that the problems with the game play is not the fault of the other players, but the fault of their own?

Or is everyone so perfect, everything they do is right, so the enemy must be wrong.

*I'm not supporting AT in any manner, I would honestly rather have it removed completely from the game and/or lockdown. I just hate when people blame their own faults on game mechanics they do not fully understand.

Fri, 11/09/2012 - 10:46

#19

Darkbrady

Or is everyone so perfect,

Or is everyone so perfect, everything they do is right, so the enemy must be wrong.

I've stated before that I see a difference in players who use AA and who use pre-empting to catch recons. I know full well when I've been beaten by someone who thought ahead, ik I'm far from perfect, as recon isn't my primary class. Ahead thinkers pick out where you're likely to be, and attack. Some swing randomly in every direction. AAs start attacking in one direction where they think you might be then suddenly BAM they swing around the last combo hit lands perfectly on you. If they knew where you were, they'd have just gone right at you. instead of risking letting you escape by throwing the first two combo attacks in a completely wrong direction.

Who knows, maybe they're just lucky idiots, every single one of them who magically nails me w/ the third attack from nowhere, every one... idk~

Fri, 11/09/2012 - 10:57

#20

Addisond

Bacon, I am fairly certain that #2 is not true if you have a good enough ping and are working at close range, or if the player is moving straight towards you or at an angle that makes their degree movement around you negligible.

Brady, I am very doubtful that that is the case. When I used AA I didn't see it working like that.

Fri, 11/09/2012 - 11:22

#21

Darkbrady

It doesn't happen all the

It doesn't happen all the time, which is what leads me to question it. My current thinking is that it's not supposed to work on cloaked recons, but that sometimes it just gets bored and works on 'em anyways.

Like I said though, they could just be incredibly lucky, incredibly coincidentally in-sync and incredibly weird players who have no connection to each other other than the fact that they repeatedly magic me in ways that are drastically different than the ones utilised by players who I know don't use AA at all.

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LD balance, timeout change, Bomb-UV interpretation change