Spiral Knights - What do you think about the energy system

What do you think about the energy system

26 replies [Last post]

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 22:05

Zaffy-Laffy

This is not a complaint thread, rather a simple discussion thread. The forums were going slow :3

Question of the day : What do you think about the energy system?

My point being, is the energy system very flawed for new players joining the game? As new comers come in, they could easily settle in. But as they continue, they realize energy is pushing them behind. Many new players would rather not spend money on a game they haven't even play for 2 hours.

At first glance, newcomers will spend about 90 energy (getting from rank 1 to rank 3) and earn not more than 500 crowns. With energy prices today (6-7k per 100), the newcomers realize they can do no more than wait. At this point people would rather quit the game.

Even as you wait, you advanced to the Tier 2, you soon realize you NEED crystal energy for 3star crafting and above. This complicates free to play players a lot as they find out they have to spend a lot of effort even to craft a 3 star. People who want to sink their money may not even seem to think that it is a good opportunity to spend their money unwisely.

A lot of hardcore players seem to think that if they were restricted by this "energy system" to play as much as they could, they won't even bother playing.

Sure it takes time to settle and understand how the game mechanics work, but is it really that flawed to the point where new players could not be integrated into the system easily (at least for the free to play)?

What do you think?

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 22:09

Mk-Vl

The mission payouts suck. If

The mission payouts suck. If they can find a way to restart the arcade it becomes a lot easier for new people (payouts, working with experienced knights, fun elements etc)

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 22:13

Hexzyle

Mist tanks need to be given

Mist tanks need to be given out a little bit more frequently for new players, methinks. Won't hurt much because new players don't really contribute to the economy at all.

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 23:14

Acid-Snow

I don't.

I don't really think about it, now that I know how it generally works (and how to survive with it in place). As for new players, well... if they aren't spending on energy, then they won't be buying the silly promo accessories. They might continue playing for the challenge or just happily accept that they will have to (heaven forbid) take a break every now and then.

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 23:17

Toksyuryel

I think the energy system is

I think the energy system is fine. It's very fair, which is extraordinarily unusual as far as energy systems go and is part of the reason why I chose to stick with this game and eventually give OOO some of my money for making such a great game that I can enjoy playing so much. And new players have it so much easier today than they used to, you can get into tier 2 on your very first day just with the energy you start with and the free mist tank you get for reaching haven. Before you had to spend 200 energy just to craft your first 2* set, on top of what you spend earning the crowns to make all of it. Nowadays you get that first set for free, and it's very cheap to buy better 2* gear from the auction house (as bad as missions pay out, they still pay out enough for that to be viable before you ever reach tier 2).

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 23:38

Oatmonster

Lick Number 58425

The energy system is a fantastic way to run a F2P game. People who don't want to spend real money don't, but all the CE in the game was bought at some point so OOO still makes money.

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 23:44

Zaffy-Laffy

Zaffy is Laffy

Okay sure, the mission system gives standardized gear. That is what many players can achieve, but till they reach 3 star and realize you need 200 energy to craft, you get all like "How am I suppose to win?". Crystal energy is a must have and players just don't know how to comprehend with the free market.

I started out way before missions were implemented. Though energy prices were cheap back then (3-4k per 100), I had no problem promoting myself to 4s star gear, then I hit a full stop because I could not comprehend with the energy market. Upon returning (after missions were implemented), I find out energy prices hit 8k per 100 and realize, wow, it was easier last time :3

Even if new comers do receive 2 star gear as they make it through the missions, energy is what's stopping them from making it past that level. Of course what's a game without a challenge. But a game with such restrictions to the amount of grinding you can do can really make people rage.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 01:06

Fradow

"Even if new comers do

"Even if new comers do receive 2 star gear as they make it through the missions, energy is what's stopping them from making it past that level."

There you have to ask yourself the question : is that a bad thing ? Obviously, I don't have first hand experience since it has been so long since I started, but I would bet they struggle a little in Tier 2. Making them stay here a little instead of rushing them to T3 may not be a bad thing. It's part of every MMO to slowly take your way up. It makes them learn how the game works and the mechanism to not have to energy revive.

I have to say I like the energy system. It's a great freemium model in my eyes : players who can pay are incentivized to do so, those who can't have to grind, and thus make the game lively, as well as providing a commodity (converting CE to Cr).

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 01:50

Zeddy

I very much like the mist system. It restricts playing to about a fairly healthy two hours each day, and maybe take a break a day in a while to craft something.

CE system I'm less enthusiastic about but I can see why it has to be there. It held me for a while in T2, but that was before missions and Hall of Heroes which made recipes and all kinds of stuff a lot easier to access. Of course, it was back when energy was a bit cheaper, too. Playing T2 for a while isn't particularly less fun than playing T3 for a while.

Hell, T1 is loads of fun as it lets me use Cold Snap and Firecracker without abandon!

I had as much fun with the game back then as I do now. What decides how long I'll stick with the game isn't the price of CE or anything else that determines how fast I progress. It's whether or not my friends are still playing, and how fun the game mechanics are. You'd never see me hop over to some other MMO because no other MMO I've tried, and I've tried a few, have had mechanics as solid and crunchy as this one.

Spiral Knights is the only MMO I've played which doesn't feel like one, and I can deal with some energy system if that means letting me have four player co-op Zelda Bomberman.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 04:09

Arquebus

Brilliant

I think the energy system and the structure of the game around it is pure genius.

However, it's a genius that's very hard to see, because it's a SYSTEM or mechanics that players perceive piece by piece rather than all at once, and each particular piece isn't particularly pleasant to look at. Energy is profoundly unsexy to new players because it only presents them with limitations, and it does so very early in the game (often on your first session), whereas other MMOs that put their "walls" at the top or center of their content instead of throughout the game have a chance to draw players in. EVE Online is similar: training times in days and weeks look tremendously tedious to newbies, but once you're in the game and understand the balance, those start to seem much more fair.

If an improvement is needed to the energy system, it's in the way it's articulated to new players. Older players (and mathier newbies) are OK with energy because they know the math behind it: the exchange rate of crowns to CE, the value of a run, the value of a piece of equipment, and all of these things relative to one another. Without that perspective, all that new players have to go on is the size of their mist tank, which is a pretty grim outlook. If it were up to me, I'd add a little tracker that shows your average crown take per floor traversed across your last run, and a gadget that compares that number with the price of CE in the market. That awfully big 200 will seem much less awfully big when it's easy to reduce it to two days' work.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 07:51

#10

Shamanalah

I think...

I think it's fine. Although it could use some tweak to benefit new players...

What I've been thinking is it should cost 2 mist/ce to go down whenever you are in T1... Depth 1 to 7

5 Mist/ce to go down in T2, Depth 8 to 17 (making JK and Roar only 5 ce)

and T3 stays at 10 ce... So it would encourage people to play more when they are in lower Tier

But... I've been a SK player before the missions started. So I had to craft my own set of items and get my own damn vog cub and skolver recipe at basil. Nowaday SK is mouth feeding the new players with decent gear and the hall of heroes to buy (mostly) all god **** recipe. So much time and effort that nowaday is considered ludacris.

So IDK if the new players should get even more advantage than what they already got from older players...

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 08:40

#11

Raisinfist

Well, the GH update %%%%ed that.

I will say two words: MIST WELLS

That lets anyone, now, play for as long as they want provided that they make a 83. 333...% profit in the Arcade, ie. enough CR to make 83.333...% of that Mist tank's worth in CE.

It goes like this:
-> Have a Mist Well with 600 ME
-> Use that Mist Well to go on runs totalling enough profit for 500CE
-> Put 500CE (+20%) = 600ME
-> Repeat.

In other words, the JK (including tokens) could actually become viable. Then you have too many Sealed Swords in the market, and goodness only knows what would happen if every second person in T3 LD had a GF.

@Shamanala
That means that, to be balanced, T3 would have to pay out over 5x more than T1, which won't happen. This shoves everyone into T1 in the Arcade as it is both easier and has the best CR/CE rate.

~Dried Grape

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 09:21

#12

Juances

With all it's flaws, the game is still up and running. 'nuff said.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 10:05

#13

Severage

...

Any game that has a system that works in a free market, with the only influence being promotional sales, and keeps both P2P and F2P player satisfied...

That's a successful system imo.

Over 9000 times better than the normal "Cash Shop" or "Item Mall"-esque games, where P2P players own the world and F2P players don't exist...

That's the stuff that I don't like.

This coming from a relatively happy F2P player who has played upwards of 10 MMOs.

~Sev

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 10:36

#14

Spold

Honestly, I'm not much of a

Honestly, I'm not much of a fan of the energy system but it seems like a good idea to balance playtime on Spiral Knights and you'll eventually get used to it.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 10:57

#15

Aumir

Well, maybe I am mistaken but...

I already am settled in this game, but I think we should get rid of crafting CE costs and turn them into sort of their crown equivalent. I am fine with limiting gameplay time (as said, 100 mist gives for 1 to 2 hours easily) but the problem with the current energy system its not on the prices-payout, it is in the "player dependant" issue: if supporter vets were to leave and get tired of the game, we wouldn't have CE anymore, so unless new players also gave their wallet away, they wouldn't get their new weapons and as so, progress in the game.

I mean, this game is certainly loved, but how much money could people afford to support the game and how much more time? It would turn into a "pay to try" type of game then if promo-loving people would go.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 11:08

#16

Fradow

"we should get rid of

"we should get rid of crafting CE costs and turn them into sort of their crown equivalent"
Thus getting ride of most of the need for CE, and the need for players, at some point, to buy CE, which is how OOO profit from the game. Understand that OOO HAVE to profit from the game, else it will simply close (maintaining the game is not a small cost).

"if supporter vets were to leave and get tired of the game, we wouldn't have CE anymore"
If too much of the persons who actually pay leave the game, that means the game will close, plain and simple, so players getting their new weapons would be the least of their worry.

"how much money could people afford to support the game and how much more time"
Good news is the game is still up and running, and there are still quite a lot of players (though the peak is probably in the past). All MMOs eventually come to an end.

"It would turn into a "pay to try" type of game then if promo-loving people would go."
I can't see OOO changing their business model. If the profit isn't enough, the game will close, plain and simple. The switch from paying to free to play is frequent, but the other way around is unheard of. I mean, if you had to pay to play, most of the population would disappear overnight, and no one likes to play an empty MMO.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 11:47

#17

Traevelliath

Admittedly, the mist systems seems REALLY restrictive... unless you are either experienced enough to farm the Royal Jelly Palace, or have a $6 Elevator Pass.

It's amazing what that little $6 purchase can do for the game. Absolutely FANTASTIC!

As for the actual topic, I do really like the energy system of the game. My only complaint is how expensive it is to go from 3* to 4* and 4* to 5*. That's when the grind really kicks in. I can make ~8000 crowns by going from Moorcroft through the Ironclaw Munitions factory. Sure that's all my mist for the day, but that's 100 CE (and ~2500 crowns with today's prices). 2* to 3* isn't that bad, for it begins taking some work to get your gear and crafting with mist halves the price. But getting 800 CE to craft a 5* is a REALLY long and grindy process, especially without a magical Elevator Pass of awesome.

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 21:47

#18

Zaffy-Laffy

Zaffy is Laffy

Bump

My new question is that new comers seem to stop playing because of this restrictive game play. Sure, you can play till 3-1 with 90 energy, then you realize you will have to wait a day to play again. Not only this, you don't have enough crowns to buy more energy, and the only other way is to buy energy with real life cash, which some players do not have. The older players will know how to overcome this energy system, even the free to play can do it. But how can we help new comers play more without waiting too long for energy?

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 22:56

#19

Acid-Snow-Wiki

Hmm

Considering that although promos lower the price of CE (newbie friendly), their main showcased stuff is aimed at P2P experienced players with nothing left to do, the fact that the game is not very newbie-friendly is not particularly important. This is somewhat unfortunate, but judging by the amount of new-mid level players I see around, the game is still bringing them in and keeping them in decent amounts.

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 23:30

#20

Shycoboy

Give this thread a bump.

I suggest we should start having the ability to sell mist tanks.

Sat, 12/29/2012 - 10:55

#21

Burntsouls

1-Create new accounts
2-Get free mist tanks from new accounts
3-Trade the mist tanks to your main account
4-Unlimited mist energy
Flawed idea.

Sat, 12/29/2012 - 11:03

#22

Shycoboy

Give this thread a bump.

@Above,

1-Okay..
2-Okay..
3-You can't trade mist tanks
4-Not unlimited mist energy

Terrible idea.

Sat, 12/29/2012 - 12:36

#23

Traevelliath

Erm... Shycoboy... he was responding to your idea... If you can sell mist tanks, you can potentially funnel and endless amount of mist-tanks to one character. If you mean buy them with $$$, I believe they are included in the Battle Pack. Buy them with crowns? Well why not just buy CE?

Also, don't forget about mist wells!

Sat, 12/29/2012 - 20:37

#24

Shycoboy

I give this thread a bump.

I give this thread a bump like always.

@Traevelliath,

I didn't know he was responding to my idea, and I was just making a quick little suggestion.

Roses are Red
Violets are blue
I hate my idea now
So do you

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 07:57

#25

Korakc

Well, energy... I love the

Well, energy...
I love the idea, I just think up to tier two you should have 5 energy elevators. For the newbies.

Sun, 02/10/2013 - 08:20

#26

Klipik

yes this.

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What do you think about the energy system