Spiral Knights - Improving enemy AI

Improving enemy AI

44 replies [Last post]

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 17:59

Klipik

I'm not sure how feasible this is, or how much coding it would take. Regardless, I was wondering if it would be possible, if there's ever a coder laying around after finishing a big project and they're looking for another thing to work on, I suggest improving the monster AIs. As it stands, most monsters are dumb, slow, and methodical. For example basic Lichens, even if you stand right next to them, they sit right infront of you for a good few seconds before attacking. And they do the same attack. Every time. Make monsters more responsive and more unpredictable.

...Please? ;)

Fri, 01/18/2013 - 21:11

Klipik

Does anyone care?

Fri, 01/18/2013 - 23:34

Zaffy-Laffy

Zaffy is Laffy

So you are telling me, you come here asking for a new enemy AI without explaining or giving suggestions to how the AI should work?

For example, if you think lichens have delays in between attacks, you should explain that lichens should not have delays in attacks, so they can spam spikes forever blah blah blah blah blah.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 08:32

Klipik

I'm not talking about specifics here. As I said, general upgrades- faster reaction times, less monsters staring at you from across the room until you shoot them, enemies chaining attacks like Gremlin Thwackers, etc. You shouldn't be able to wait until the enemy attacks, then just rush in and unleash some charge because you know they won't attack for the next five seconds.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 13:24

Shotjeer

So, I agree

It depends on how the devs make them. If they make multiple trojans create a shield wall, so much the better. If they just shorten the delay in attacks, that's okay too. The retrodes and zombie slash attacks already have a very small delay. Maybe they should make shankles and wisps chase you XD.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 14:46

Klipik

"The retrodes and zombie slash attacks already have a very small delay."

They actually don't - ever since this patch. It seems like OOO dumbed down the Ai's on purpose. I say remove those AI changes, and then add in even more improvements.

Sat, 01/19/2013 - 15:14

Shotjeer

Looks. HOW DID I NOT NOTICE??!!

RAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGERAGE
Fudgesicles.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:38

Klipik

<_< >_>

*bumps thread*

Just played the new prestiege mission, Black Kats behave exactly like normal kats. I wasn't expecting them to be completely different, but exactly the same? come on.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:45

Quakeman

are you saying they make a

are you saying they make a bad job? because those "seconds before they attacks you" is what saving your life in t3 when your surrounded .. also fiends dosent have that delay

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:53

Klipik

If you get completely surrounded, you should die. And I'm saying the enemies' reactions are unrealistically slow, and they make charging into a big group much easier than it should be.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:13

#10

Quakeman

good for you .. time to

good for you .. time to upgrade to shadows lair now

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:25

#11

Klipik

lolwut?

That makes no difference, except for the fact that SL enemies break your shield and take down your health faster.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:45

#12

Quakeman

good , now try to solo dark

good , now try to solo dark vana in proto using only waterballs .. then you can say ai is very easy and need rework

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 19:49

#13

Klipik

...

That's not what I'm talking about. When you have the best gear for your situation, the game should still be challenging.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:21

#14

Iapnez

Quakeman: You're putting up a

Quakeman: You're putting up a fairly weak strawman. "Hurr go proto in UFSC. Your argument wrong." That doesn't work. Klipik's suggestion is valid because he's trying to get the NORMAL monsters to behave more unpredictably and more dangerously. I'm honestly of the opinion that T3 monsters are too easy. They should be hard, but not "cheap" in their tactics. What might help is having the monster difficulty split into six strata instead of three tiers.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:24

#15

Quakeman

@Malsvir-Branea look .. ive

@Malsvir-Branea look .. ive been bashed on just for askign for a gun boss idea because aparently the 3/4 of the people on the internet still use dial up and cant shield before 5 seconds of feedbacks .. so my point is if an enemy with a gun will piss peoples off ... making all the enemy exixting stronger would kill spiral knights laggers wich is an higer population than i tough

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:37

#16

Iapnez

The problem with a gun boss

The problem with a gun boss is that if the bullets were fast enough, it wouldn't give people enough time to reasonably react. About .3-.7 seconds are needed to react to an unexpected situation, less for an expected one. Having monsters to be buffed so they aren't so braindead and can attack more often would allow players to still react reasonably without there being a true "lag" excuse.

The problem with a gun boss: Unreasonable reaction time expectation. The bullets would have to be slow enough to dodge (barely). That and as you get closer to a gun boss, the less time you have to react. It'd basically render swordsmen moot, which isn't a good idea. As it stands currently, each weapon class can perform against the enemies to a fairly good degree of effect. Some more than others, but they all can perform nonetheless.

Recap: Faster attacking monsters = harder, but fair. Gun boss: Unfair period.

If you want the equivalent of what I think a gun boss would be like, look at the Darkfang gremlins with their spin attack. There is NO circle that appears within a reasonable amount of time. You're just slammed and missing half your health, despite having elemental resistance.

(Also: Raging on someone else's suggestion because you couldn't have your way in yours isn't cool.)

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 00:59

#17

Mookie-Cookie

Quakeman.. you don't

Quakeman.. you don't understand the concept between lag and latency, do you? I say that because you brought "dial-up" into this.

My Internet gives me a steady 100-300 kb/s (which is pretty decent), but due to the nature of my connection and my location, I get a horrible 300ms of latency.

When you develop online games, you do NOT develop in the mindset that your players have high-quality, stable connections; with very low ping. That's likely one reason why attack delays are so long, and the like. Of course, battles like Vana's masks are examples where you need a good connection to be effective, but it's not impossible to do.

A bullet hell would be insanely difficult for high ping players, which throws out a huge chunk of possible gamers. The exact opposite of what OOO probably wants.

Anyway, as for the AI, I feel its difficult enough for transitioning players; but it is somewhat easy to overcome as an endgame player. As I mentioned earlier about latency, making delays too short can prove problematic for high ping players. So, if it were shortened, it can't be "too short".

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 02:47

#18

Quakeman

nah , i saw the new mewkat

nah , i saw the new mewkat boss fight ... bullets hell WILL be used lag or not ... just watch the video and chec the bullets going down the world when he get to the middle elevator

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 06:43

#19

Klipik

So... Topic...

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 08:17

#20

Quakeman

nope :3

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 09:27

#21

Canine-Vladmir

p.s.

there working on it.

Sat, 02/02/2013 - 09:48

#22

Blandaxt

I agree!

This has been suggested many times and many ideas came up on how to buff the tier 3 monsters. So about your general buff, i think you need to go look at the threads that have already been maid and reiterate on those ideas instead of asining a general buff on all monsters.

About a bullet boss, he will have a reload time and will not be shooting bullets continuosly without a pause time (the pause time doesn't mean that it will be easy to strike him). So im thinking, the boss shoots, knight dodges or shields for 1 sec then dodge. Knight can shoot back to stun boss switch to mele hit, Boss uses gun like magnus charge, smacks knight back, knight retreats behind breakable block and waits for stun to get off. Boss starts to shoot fast pace antigua bullet, knight starts to run around the boss in circles and wait for the boss to shoot the magnus bullet again. knight dodges, then knight does combo with sword while boss reloads ect. This scenario i just provide is just an example how a boss pure gunner is viable and is possible to be implemented. It does not mean that the boss will be so varied in its attacks like i described, but it does mean there are options to make this possible. Personally, i would rather it be a mini-boss then a boss.

during the time the knights is dodging, the boss artificial inteligence will be aiming at the knights last know location and will have brief pause before the boss starts to attack base on teh gun it is using. So if a knights keeps moving in circles around the boss and pays attention to what weapon the boss is switching too, then it can be close to impossible to get hit. An example can be if the boss switches to an autogun and aims at the knight. The knights can choose to: A) try to doge the area of the autogun is aiming at and charge the boss with melee or B) run away behind breakable block for additional defense and attack during the boss reload time. So depending on the gun, the boss will have weaknesses that the knight can exploit.

Sat, 02/02/2013 - 10:18

#23

Klipik

Keep the gun boss discussion in your own thread, Quakeman.

Sat, 02/02/2013 - 10:18

#24

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

If you get completely surrounded, you should die

I must be playing the wrong way because I don't die?

You need to be more specific... Yes the AI is dumb, they always are. You are a human... they are coding lines... Personally I would love that mobs keep focusing on you...

*hit zombie*
*run 2 screen away*

half the time the zombol won't follow you...

I would love to see the "focus" being tweaked. Too much time I've been next to a zombol who was hugging the wall or another zombol. The worst case was with 2 trojan on depth 25 in FSC... left side, 2nd room on the left from above.

My friend start the room, die. I come in and rez him, he goes on to make the room with jelly (just above the double trojan room) and the 2 trojans kept on focusing him and ran into the upper most wall and kept hugging it even though I was bashing them with my Glacius. They never focused on me... Why?

I know how focus work with bosses: The one that does most damage in the shortest amount of time will get aggro'ed. But it seems bleh with normal mobs...

Sat, 02/02/2013 - 11:33

#25

Quakeman

no :3

no :3
vs margrel you clearly see that a massive of endless zombie spam (if you only focus on the boss instead of the black kat) are dangerous even if they are stupid AND tier 2

Sat, 02/02/2013 - 12:33

#26

Klipik

...Since when do Black Kats spawn during the boss fight?

Sat, 02/02/2013 - 21:58

#27

Howardfeng

Since always.

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 03:19

#28

Ewbte

Im in.

In current state game is totally boring for old players just because you know all moves of all enemies, and die mostly of bad luck or connection troubles or bored and play the fool. Sad, sad.

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 05:38

#29

Quakeman

-9 no otherwise just ask for

-9
no

otherwise just ask for a tier 4

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 09:20

#30

Klipik

"no"

Explanation please. Are you saying the AI isn't too easy and predictable?

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 09:27

#31

Fleet-Miss-Gun

The enemy must be unpredictable and hard!

Also devillites are too easy, please buff them by making them throw two projectiles in a frontal cone and make the projectiles fast and homing!

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 09:30

#32

Klipik

Devilites are fine. My only problem is that they're hard to hit because they can jump so far.

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 09:33

#33

Fleet-Miss-Gun

And 1 more buff.

Menders are too easy! They should have a weak three hit combo so they're challenging.

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 10:00

#34

Terra-Necro

I reject

I don't think this is really necessary. What t3 monsters make up for with stupidity is power in numbers. Plain and simple.

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 10:06

#35

Klipik

Brandish lines are a direct counter to numbers. The only counter to brains is better brains.

@fleet: mender rebalance

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 11:04

#36

Fleet-Miss-Gun

Also 1 more buff.

Wolvers should track you!

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 11:35

#37

Quakeman

enemies should all have

enemies should all have homing projectiles that MUST 1 hit kill you and your shield cant protect you from it .. you must dodge it till the end of the level

Sun, 02/03/2013 - 16:22

#38

Klipik

@Quake:They have that

@Quake:They have that already. It's called rocket puppies. And those orbs in the Margrel fight.

@Fleet: That's not a buff, that's a de-nerf.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 13:54

#39

Cloud-Shot

+ ∞

I think wolvers should at least stay looking at you when they attack if not track.

Same goes with most monsters. Monster that are plain stupid like zombies on the other hand could keep their current AI. Maybe this could add a new line of stronger zombies as well with better tracking into the fray of battle.

Just a few idea I like to add;

For co-operation among monsters:
Gremlins could maybe try to jump in front of the healers.
Fiends could probably try to lay down constant attack chain.
Construct are machine so unless they're wireless-ly connected, they should remain the same. If so, then they should merge together into a giant mecha drone! (sarcasm implied)
Maybe slimes could stick in group like a colony and they can all have increased when defense together.
Kat should try to attack the lowest health player if they're within 10 tiles or so.
Wolvers could take turn attacking like a wolf pack would and try to finish off low health player with them all attacking in unison.

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 16:56

#40

Klipik

Nice ideas, Cloud.

Also, I just remembered, Luguiru made a big thing about making all the monster abilities better.

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 17:28

#41

Softhead

Zombies should have a rush like tactic.

So they all charge jump and use their attacks on a victim.

Zombies, as they have no sense of self-preservation(enemies sometimes run on low health), should constantly hound the player.

Knockers should use their charge on a stunned player.

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 19:28

#42

Incendere

About Menders!

I have an idea in mind for them. When all other enemy around them is gone they should transform into a powerfull grimlin that attacks ( sorta like the divilites do )

Fri, 04/19/2013 - 17:46

#43

Houndoomwars

2nd healer opinion

Menders should buff constructs (definitely) and gremlins (maybe) when enemies have little need of healing, and when only menders are left, they build constucts ( nothing too dangerous)

Silkwings do the same thing with shadow based enemies,and turn into greavers when only they remain

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 06:57

#44

Dagunner

ZZzzzzz

the current AIs make things too easy, the only reason I die is coz of lag spikes and half the time the monsters still dont even hit me. They need to be buffed and de-nerfed. quake if u think the AI's are too hard then play in lower tiers until u have the ability to excel in higher tiers, thats what people used to do before missions and the nerfs

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Improving enemy AI