Damage Collection Spreadsheet
After reading the discussions here and here, I've started a Google Docs spreadsheet for collecting weapon damage information.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkzK0t1pboRAdDQ4ZkgxajhpWE11bDB...
Shortened URL for your convenience: http://tinyurl.com/skdmg
Each weapon has its own sheet (I've only added weapons I'm using currently, thus far). The depth goes down the page, then the monster type if applicable goes across the spreadsheet.
I've added the data from divaliant's records to show how that would look in this spreadsheet.
Damage Types
Different damage types should be groupable by monster type. A divine avenger does Normal/Elemental so the monsters that should share the same damage at a depth should be Slime/Fiend, Construct/Undead, Gremlin/Beast. Whereas a Vile Striker does Normal damage only and should be consistent across all monsters in a depth. The only caveat is that some monsters have higher/lower defense than normal such as menders, royal mini, rock jelly, etc. So only record data for monsters that have a normal defense.
Dealing with UVs
Not elegant, but might work... check out the sheet for Final Flourish. I've added an additional column for UV Beast High to track that damage. Others with UVs can add their columns too then see how the damage affects that creature.
I would believe that a UV Beast High on a Final Flourish would result in the same damage as a UV Fiend High on the respective monster type. Once someone else can confirm maybe it would just become UV Beast/Fiend High. I'm hoping that weapons with straight Normal damage could just have columns with Low, Medium, High, Very High, etc. and that it would be consistent across all types, we'll see.
Status-afflicting Weapons
So some weapons such as the haze bomb line, alchemers, and the brandish line will inflict a status along with the typical damage. For fire/shock it is ticks, freeze has thaw, poison is the defense debuff... it would be nice to track these effects at different depths too. Ticks and thaw are easy enough to track, as you can see in my Ash of Agni sheet. Not sure about poison though since I don't know how the debuff is calculated, any ideas?
I'll be adding my own Cold Iron Cutter stats to there as often as possible, as well as once I upgrade it to a Vanq.
Wohoo! This is great! Good job Culture and everyone else =D.
I'll be adding the Heavy Deconstructor and Shadowtech Alchemer up there within a few days.
Remember that if you use the wolver series it modifies your dmg. UVs give about 7% extra dmg per tier and weaknesses give 32% extra dmg... this is based on depth 15 and only depth 15 data though.
I've added the data for Khorovod from depth 24-28, after doing a few straight runs. It seemed odd to me that my numbers would go down slightly after a certain point, but then I remembered that it's only a four-star weapon, and might not be at its best in the lower half of the tier.
Also, excellent work on this gentlefolk!
Glad to see more data coming in :D Thanks Ceyne for filling out that missing tier on the Khorovod data. I've been tracking data for DA and Ash the last few days. Ash is turning out to be really complex due to different monsters having various fire resistances.
One note on gathering the data, weapons like Cold Iron Carver only do normal damage. So for any given slime, construct, undead, etc. the damage dealt should be exactly the same. The exceptions would only be mobs like menders or rock jelly which have higher or lower than normal defense. Also, danger rooms and monsters that spawn in treasure rooms sometimes are not reliable either. So I consolidated the columns on the CIC/CIV pages.
Weapons like the Divine Avenger has three separate monster columns since it does Normal/Elemental damage and thus needs to take into account monsters that are weak, neutral or strong against elemental.
I think I'm going to remove the Boss columns. There are only two big bosses, and the damage numbers could be put in the notes for that depth rather than taking up so much horizontal space.
"One note on gathering the data, weapons like Cold Iron Carver only do normal damage. So for any given slime, construct, undead, etc. the damage dealt should be exactly the same."
Not QUITE true; the Cold Iron series has an innate damage bonus vs undead, so you'd definitely want to separate that column out.
Oh, right, I always forget that on that weapon >_< There are undead columns now on the CIV/CIC pages.

Just wanted to pop in and say that this is a great initiative, and I hope to see it continue.
As you collect the data, it should be possible to answer some basic questions, and if someone crunches the numbers we can get some solid info on bonuses for the wiki. On my userpage, my wishlist is:
Measure damage dealt as a function of depth, star level, damage type, and bonuses applied. Ideally, a few "standard" weapons will be used (pure damage of only one type, level 10, and a whole range of star levels in the same upgrade tree)
- How big is a "low" bonus? And "high"?
- How much bonus damage do you get if a monster is "weak against" a damage type? Compare to how much less damage is done if a monster is "strongly resistant". (suggestion: weapons with mixed damage
- How effective is poison at reducing monster attack power? Likewise, how much more damage do monsters take when poisoned?
My strong hunch is that damage bonuses are a percentage of base weapon power, but how they stack with elemental resistance, for example, is unclear. What conclusions can we draw so far? (sorry that I don't have time to do more than cut/paste, but someone out here may be able to do better)
I am planning on starting to add damage information to the wiki using the template from the graviton bomb page.
I have a question for you guys first though: For swords, would it be acceptable to simply show the damage from a basic first blow? That would seem to fit the existing template the best.
I will be using the information I have gathered myself and information from the table culture has so generously set up.
Actually you know what? scratch that, it's not too much data! (hint: it's never too much data)
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/RxRenesis8/Screenshot_2011-05-23a...
Looks like an appropriate format to me! I'll get to cracking.
That looks excellent, I like it! Thanks for starting to put the data in the wiki.
So, I have some suggestions (guidelines?) in three easy to read bullet points. This is what I'm going to be telling people I'm testing with:
Also: Brute jellies are not on the wiki, wtf.
@RXrenesis8 that is a great description. Is that in the wiki somewhere? Maybe we need a Damage Collection page that gives instructions and also lists which weapons have damage tables and which do not. (Or is there some search function in the wiki that'll show this?)
I added the damage for Master Blast Bomb, but I'm not sure how to remove the "Versus" row. It is unnecessary since the bomb only does normal damage. Could someone with mad wiki skillz update that table to remove the row? When I tried to remove it, there was a big gap in the table, then further efforts destroyed the formatting >_< So I went back to just having the row in there for now...
Nope, just was thinking about it and figured I should write it down somewhere.
Yes, a page with that list and these instructions would be beneficial. It could be like the page that's set up for needed images.
Also, a note for resistant mobs: all mobs that take differing amounts of damage appear to come from different tiers! the jellies I thought were Brute Jellies, are actually just T3 jellies, the mobs in danger rooms often come from deeper depths, and alpha wolvers... OK I dunno about this one, I was doing testing on depth 28 and they were still taking less piercing damage than the normal wolvers. Perhaps alphas come from the core!
To whoever that added Mega Magnus numbers; each tier consists of 2 stratums, they are divided by Basil. There is three tiers in the game and six stratums. Current numbers represent the not too precise outcome in Tier 1 / 2 / 3 (relatively to the table Stratum 1 / 2 / 3).
I don't have a Level 10 Mega Magnus so can't confirm these numbers myself. But I went ahead and separated the data into the presumed strata, at least until we can get someone to verify the data.
Ooooh... It was separated by stratum... I didn't even notice that! I had been separating them by Tier.

I have Callahan, Fiery Atomizer and Leviathan up to lv 10, I can test for you guys.
I'm not too savy with Google docs (and afraid I'll probably mess it up somehow), so I'll probably just post the information I get here if that's ok? I just need to get a new helm first before I can report anything on the leviathan blade. (the damage bonus on ashtail only applies to swords right?)
Data added as I get it
Leviathan Blade, some one put the data in the wiki so I'm no longer tracking it here.
Callahan (normal/charged)
Stratum 1 Weak (29/46)-(34/54) Neutral (24/41)(-25/46) Resist (5/7)-(6/8)
Stratum 2 Weak (41/67)-(46/69) Neutral (29/55)-(31/61) Resist (7/10)(8/12)
Stratum 3 Weak (79/128)-(82/135) Neutral* (59/108)-(???) Resist (13/19)-(14/22)
Stratum 4 Weak (87/145)-(94/160) Neutral* (55/114)-(57/???) Resist (15/23)-(17/26)
Stratum 5 Weak (141/???)-(178/296) Neutral (96/189)-(121/238) Resist (24/37)-(???/???)
Stratum 6 No data
*This appears to be normal, either both my friend and I noted stuff wrong, or the defenses are ramping up alot in stratum 4 compared to 3 so as to cause damage numbers to go down instead of up
That's great! You can add the data to your post, or even put it directly in the wiki.
You are correct, Ash Tail is only going to affect sword damage. If you up upgrade to Vog Cub then it'll be IAS instead of Damage bonus which would make testing the Levi possible also.
Now if we can just find someone with a CIV we'll have hard data for Levi vs CIV.
In the Levi data, what does "dead" indicate? Also, does the Levi's charge attack do higher damage on the third strike? I don't have one but I thought all the strikes of the charge attack did the same damage.
Many times in T1 with OP weapons, you'll need to hit air with the first two swings so that the final swing connects and you get the data. Very difficult with some weapons and combos.
As for Callahan's neutral damage - as one progresses through a tier the damage depth nerf is reduced but also the monster's defense increases (I think) so it is sometimes possible for damage to only increase by 1-2 points or even go down through a tier.

Oh I have the data for all three of Levis attacks in T1, it's just that the first two attacks of a combo do the same damage so I just listed it once.
I couldn't remember if the charged attack does the same damage all three times as I haven't really payed attention to numbers in about a month until now. If it does do the same damage for all three strikes than I'll poke it to reflect that. (the dead was me showing I couldn't land a third charged hit on anything before it had died so I couldn't be sure).
I'll poke at my post to make it more sensible though, I wasn't quite sure how to express some things.
Edit: I've noticed a few strange things tonight, first I started testing my firey atomizer and I noticed floor five against some jellies the fire tick on them is higher than the tick on anything else (I've also noticed the tick sometimes does different damage depending on the monsters resistance level to the explosion). I've also noticed Kats don't always take the same damage from the same weapon, ex on the same floor, my weapons would sometimes deal only 43 or46 on the initial swing, and then later against the same kat I just hit it'll do 50 on the initial swing. (where the damage for this floor is 50-50-60, it's a little weird to see something like (wiff-43-60), (46-50- ) [upon further looking at it, it seems this happens when they are on fire...)
Can someone confirm for me that I'm not going crazy, or that Jellies and kats have some variables in what their defense is doing beyond what we'd normally see? For the time being I'm going to note the damage against jellies from my bomb separately.
I've seen T2 kats in groups of T1 kats. Sort of like the T3 jellies in T2 right before JK. These higher tier mobs will take less damage accordingly.
(Look at the eyes, they should be more cracked/glowey?)

That doesn't really explain why attacking the exact same mob will do different damages though.
Fire might be the most complicated status effect. There are at least 6 different fire resistances depending on the specific monster that is on fire. So the ticks values vary greatly from monster to monster. When I was testing the Fiery Vaporizer Mk II, I noticed that the fire ticks was exactly the same as Ash of Agni's fire ticks up till around Tier 3 when they dropped significantly. So might check the see if the Fiery Atomizer ticks match those on the Ash of Agni sheet in the google doc.
Like RXrenesis8 said, monsters can appear from different tiers which will throw off your numbers sometimes. This is particularly true of the Cravat Hall levels, which frequently pull in jellies and kats from elsewhere. They might not even look different. If you are in the first half of a Tier, Strata 3 for example, then it can pull in Strata 4 monsters which look exactly like Strata 3 monsters since they are still in the same tier. But these deeper monsters have the boosted defenses representative of their strata. Annoying for sure. When I see the numbers suddenly drop for no reason (especially in Cravat Hall), I know that is why and disregard the data.
I was in T1 doing Snarby and another party member had a Flamberge 3*. The fire ticks it was doing matched the fire ticks from the Ash exactly on all the creatures that caught fire. Would be great to see if someone could confirm more numbers, maybe from the 5* version to see if all the fire ticks match up.
Just from my experience with fire ticks in the haze series - the star level, heat and UVs won't change the fire tick. Only exception is using a bomb in a tier deeper than its intended use. For example, a Fiery Vaporizer Mark II 3* does less much lower fire damage than Ash in Tier 3 but it matches exactly in Tier 1.

I've decided to document stuff from the fiery atomizer after my other weapons, since the fire ticks may as well differ for me based on the current dew point and wind direction. It'll be easier to do later when I can focus on collecting only the data for it.
So I'll be working on just the leviathan blade and callahan for the time being.
Edit: Also, I don't think you guys are understanding when I say the SAME Katt. I'm not saying two different mobs that look the same, I mean I will smack the exact same mob and get two different numbers.

I noticed the final flourish data there lists a single damage point for the charged attack. I know the grand flourish's charged attack does additional damage (roughly 8%) on the third strike. Is there any reason not to collect this data?
I just didn't keep track of the final hit. It was almost done gathering final flourish data when I first noticed that a final hit occurred (the creature usually died long before a final hit). If you'd like, feel free to gather the data points and add it to the wiki.

Alright, the fire ticks for the firey atomizer are not the same as they are for ash of agni, here's what I've got so far. (I'm just posting all the floors here rather than just the min and max, so that the tick can possibly be studied a bit closer by anyone who may want to.)
Stratum 1 Dmg
Floor 1 Weak: 31 Neutral: ??? Resist: 5
Floor 2 Weak: ??? Neutral: 28 Resist: ???
Floor 3 Weak: 37 Neutral: ??? Resist: 6
Stratum 1 Fire Tick
Floor 1: 4 (Mecha) , 3 (any gremlin)
Floor 2: 5 (any fiend)
Floor 3: 11 (skelly), 8 (wolver), 7 (any chroma)
Stratum 2 Dmg
Floor 5 Weak: 44 Neutral: ??? Resist: ???
Floor 6 Weak: 47 Neutral: 34 Resist 8
Floor 7- no info (server rebooted)
Stratum 2 tick
Floor 5: 16 (skelly)
Floor 6: 13 (rocket puppy) 10 (silkwing), 15 (pink jelly), 18 (Lichen), 20 (Ice Jelly), 10 (Mender), 11 (any chroma), 13 (ice wolver)
Floor 7:
Stratum 3 Dmg
Floor 9 Weak: 83 neutral: 63 Resist: 13
Floor 10 Weak: 86 Neutral: 64 Resist: 14
Floor 11 Weak: ??? Neutral: ??? Resist: 15
Floor 12 Weak: 91 neutral: 64 Resist: 15
Stratum 3 Tick
Floor 9: Lumbar 19, Chroma 15, Jelly 19, Wolver 17
Floor 10: Jelly 22, lumbar 22, wolver 19, Gremlin 14
Floor 11: Gremlin 16
Floor 12: Scuttlbot/Retrode/Gunpup/Quicksilver 24, Gremlin 17
stratum 4 information is unavailable at this time
Stratum 5 Dmg
Floor 19: Weak: ??? Neutral: 102 Resist: 25
FLoor 20: Weak: ??? Neutral: ??? Resist: 27
Floor 21: Weak: ??? Neutral: ??? Resist: 29
Floor 22: no data
Stratum 5 tick
Floor 19: Lumbar/Jelly 49. Chroma/wolver 43, Gremling, 31
Floor 20: Lumbar/Jelly 54, Wolver 47, Chroma 41
Floor 21: Lumbar 58, Wolver 51, Chroma 44
Floor 22: no data
So far all the fire tick damage matches up with the Ash of Agni perfectly. Except for Floor 12, I would have thought that Quicksilver would be 27 instead of 24, but might be a mistake in the Ash's data table.
Also of note, all the blast damage is matching the Freezing Atomizer 4* perfectly, so maybe haze bombs of the same star have the same blast values? Guess it makes sense to have them all be the same.
When I was testing the Freezing Atomizer, the thaw damage matched the Shivermist up until Tier 3 when it dropped off significantly. Might be the same for Fiery Atomizer, will be good to see.

I guess I have trouble reading the spread sheet is all, lots of rows of things confuse my eyes. I'll just keep collecting samples, and we'll see what happens for the damage and ticks.
It makes a sort of sense that they all have the same blast value, I haven't been making it into the second half of T3 lately, but I'll try to get there, cause I haven't gone to the core since the achievement update!
At some point I'll get some data for the Volt Driver, so you can compare to the alchemer data you already have.

I've done preliminary data analysis on the damage decay after weapons reach their peak. So far things seem consistent with an exponential decay towards an asymptotic value. The data is more or less consistent with a universal decay constant and a final damage value equal to the depth 1 damage. The sample size is very small however. To do proper fits, I need long tails, which means low star items, at high depth. Currently that restrict data to mostly calibur and tempered calibur.
To better test this hypothesis, I need some full data on 0* and 1* weapons. Anybody feel like testing proto gear in tier 3?

I'd actually considered doing this at some point.
Added a sheet for Proto Sword with damage in T2 and T3.
I'll get around to testing some other weapons tomorrow.

Just wanted to check in with you damage table aficionados with a few questions/suggestions for the damage tables' visuals:
- I've noticed that the different monster type sections are not in consistent order among all the pages. This makes it harder to compare between pages. Is there a reason for this or would it be okay for me to edit 'em all to be the same order.
- With all the rounded corners, the tables are larger than they need to be with a lot of empty space. This makes it more difficult to easily parse the data for me at least. I would like to shrink down the cell padding and remove the rounded edges from the cells inside of the still rounded edges outer table. It would look something like my proposed sources table here. Objections?
- While I am at it, should I put them all into show/hide boxes like on http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Gran_Faust#Damage? Also, I feel like we don't need the header at all really that says X's Damage Table since it's under a "Damage" header on that equipment's specific page.
Thoughts on all this?
I'm not sure the types can be ordered consistently. Gran Faust has "Beasts and Constructs" in the middle but those would be on opposite sides of the table for Final Flourish, and paired with different types. Right now I think they are all listed from weak -> strong, should probably be strong -> weak... but yeah.
I'm not a fan or rounded corners for grid layouts, it causes annoying optical illusions at the vertices. Feel free to change it up :D
I like your show/hide buttons. I agree that the header is quite redundant.

Ah, I didn't know they were different as I haven't looked at them too carefully. I will change my question to cover things that are in the same line so you can compare them more easily. Like these two have different orders for the tables despite being in the same alchemy path:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Dark_Thorn_Blade#Damage
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Barbarous_Thorn_Blade#Damage

@equinox
- Getting the order to be consistent would be a good thing. The only caveat here is to keep a watch for weapons with a bonus vs. a specific enemy type. An alternative would be to label them as "Weak ()", "Moderate ()". This will make the ordering more apparent.
-Square/rounded corners. I don't care either way. I guess square corners are more compact so that is a good thing. We would need to figure out a good way to globally implement the change. (The cell formatting is currently controlled by the SKCell template. Changing that would change ALL tables on the wiki. We let the damage table cells use a different template. This would require manually changing a lot of pages.)
-I'm not a big fan of using the hide/show boxes. One issue is accessibility since, the operation of these boxes requires javascript to be enabled in the browser (I think). Secondly, they are not formatted consistently with the rest of the page. It should however be possible to integrate the hide show button in the table header. Infoboxes on other wiki's do this all the time. I can look into this if necessary.
-The header is indeed redundant with a section header. I think however that the solution here is to remove the section header instead of table header. The damage table should simply appear in the "Attacks" section, possibly as a float. (this would only really be any option if the table can be collapsed)

I've switched the damage tables and the CTR tables to use a more compacted table. However, the "Versus Fiends and Undead" style cells were not templated, so as you go through editing pages with those, just add in a "2" to make it SKCell2 instead and that will take care of it.
Also, due to the wiki issues, the template changes might not propagate to a page until that page is edited, so there may still be some longer rounded corner tables still being seen for a bit.
Edit: Took care of the handguns & swords, so for those keep an eye out for stragglers that I missed. Do the bombs if you want an easy project.

Also, due to the wiki issues, the template changes might not propagate to a page until that page is edited, so there may still be some longer rounded corner tables still being seen for a bit.
Just so you know. You do not have to edit the page in order for the template to update. All that is needed is a purge of the page cache on the wiki server. You can purge a page by adding "&action=purge" to the end of the url.

I've actually tried purge and it doesn't always work with whatever the wiki server issue is.

How does one add Irontech Destroyer? i couldn't see it there.

I assume you are talking about the spreadsheet. Use the following steps:
-Select the sheet of a weapon you want to use as a template. (in this case probably another bomb)
-Right click on the tab of that sheet and select "duplicate".
-A new sheet will be created called "copy of [the sheet you selected]".
-Right click on the tab of the new sheet and select rename. (Enter the name of the new weapon, in this case "irontech destroyer".
-Select that sheet. Clear out the old data, and change the header to "irontech destroyer".
-You are now good to enter the new data.

Ok, thanks - I'll collect some data later after i finish playing blast network.
Sounds like a useful contribution to the over-arching plan, culture. :)
In regards to UVs: For random UV's that are not an inherent feature of a specific weapon, i don't think specific damage numbers will need to be recorded because A: it is very unlikely, with the exception of Low bonuses (which only make a couple points of difference), that there will be enough people with a specific weapon with a very specific possible random UV for there to be any purpose in recording the difference and B: I'm fairly certain that the various strengths of damage bonus work on a specific percentile amount, which we should be able to calculate once and for all after we've got our charts developed for non-UV'd weapons, by using the data on that chart for comparison. At that point, someone can simply make an addendum to the page on UV bonuses stating how much difference each level makes.
In regards to Status-afflicting weapons: My suggestion is to implement charts exactly like the ones we're planning for the weapons' individual pages, on the pages of status effects that do damage.
So on the fire page we'd have a chart each for Minor Fire, Moderate Fire, and Strong Fire, and each of those charts would have columns sorted by Stratum Level and Rows sorted by the monster type it is used against... When applicable. A curious note: Only shocked-status damage seems to actually do elemental damage. Fire and Freeze thaw-out seem to actually do normal damage, at least based on the damage number text color in-game, though I suppose proper testing will determine if, say, fire actually does more damage to zombies than it does to wolvers.
Also you might be happy to know I've started working on an actual final template design, for when we've gotten the data ready to record into the wiki itself. I'm using my own user talk page for the testing: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User_talk:CrashFu