Spiral Knights - Royal Jelly Palace doesn't fit other Boss Levels

Royal Jelly Palace doesn't fit other Boss Levels

27 replies [Last post]

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:20

Zopyros-Il

*Once again, not a suggestion. Just trying to start up a discussion and continue my quest to critique the slag out of OOO.*

The Boss levels all have something unique in them that you use against or something that helps you to battle the boss. Usually these helpful features are presented during the levels preceding the boss.
Examples:

- Snarbolax: The Beast Bells
Throughout the Gloaming Wildwoods, new players can see the Beast Bells throughout. They make a cool noise when you hit them and usually by accident, they find out that it stuns the enemies.
When they get to the Snarbolax boss room, all they are greeted by is the Bell in the middle and Snarby himself. They'll quickly realize that they can't hurt Snarby, so the only option left is to try to hit him with the Bell.
BAM! Good level design! A+

- The Roarmulus Twins: Switch barricades, Missiles, and Lasers
All through the Ironclaw Munitions Factory, you're being shot at with Missiles. When you first enter, they're the first threat you have to deal with. You see that they're blocked by obstacles so you use those for cover. Oh what's this colored switch and door blocking my way? Oh! It opens and closes the doors! A few feet further and you realize that these wonderful switch barricades can stop the missiles! A level further and you realize that with proper timing, you can lead the missiles to destroy other obstacles! Genius!
Now let's fight the Twins! Oh wait! There's a giant laser wall blocking the elevator! Let's try that switch again... Whoa! It blocks missiles AND lasers?!
So you take the elevator down to fight the Twins, cower in terror of them, and maybe wet your pants before you realize that they are shooting at each other with missiles. Switch, switch, boom! You realize the key to the fight is to make them hurt each other! You also know that you're perfectly safe behind the barricades, so you also know how to deal with all of their attacks!
THE BEST LEVEL DESIGN. A++

- Lord Vanaduke: Nature Sprite Water
Technically the last boss, you already know what the Clockworks has to offer, so you go barreling in. The Wheel Launchers are kind of new but nothing that you can't handle. Next level. Oh hey there little green guy! Who cares about sprites, I'm going on ahea...... the path is blocked with fire. Fine, I'll help you find the other sprites. Six rooms later and you have a fountain with magic water. You throw it at the flames and realize you can extinguish them. OK.
A few levels later, you reach Vanaduke. He seems to need glasses because he thinks you're a wolf but you still keep your guard up because he is a boss afterall. First stage, you punch him full of holes. Second stage... SWEET SEERUS. Throw some water on that thing stat! Cooled him down, beat him up. Next stage! He starts dropping fire from the ceiling. Good thing you already know how to deal with that. You also find out you can extinguish those spinning orbs, which is good to note. So you battle through the next few stages. They get more annoying, not so much harder because you know how to dodge all the attacks and what to do. He's just annoyingly unpredictable sometimes and with those Slag Guards there, you're bound to get hit sometimes.
Not the best level design, but still gets the point across. B+

And now the problem child.

- Royal Jelly: ...........ummmmm
There is nothing in the Royal Jelly Palace levels that gives you any warning or foresight about the coming battle with the Royal Jelly. Nothing that warns you that all throughout the battle, the Royal Jelly is going to be healing from the Royal Minis and that the Royal Polyps are going to produce those. It shows the Royal Minis all over the place, but it gives no indication of their healing ability whatsoever. All you know from the level is that the boss is a Jelly and that he's royalty.
Terrible level design. D-

Fix the level by giving some indication that the Royal Minis heal the boss. Make the player realize that those things are a FAR greater threat than they realize. Include the Royal Polyps in the level as well, so players know to take those out if they want to stop the flow of Royal Minis.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY.
Make it so that the Royal Jelly can be "starved" to death again. Having a constantly healing boss, as a near beginning boss is an alright choice. Having an INFINITELY healing boss be near the start of the game, IS NOT. This makes is so that under-equipped players still have a chance to defeat the Royal Jelly without having to surpass his healing rate. It makes the battle a more strategic and thought-out one as well.

Thoughts?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:30

Little-Juances

Even with standard 3* weapons I don't think the healing is much of a threat. In fact some may say it's easier now.

Old jelly did have infinite healing without even touching the minis.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:33

Retequizzle

I think you're

I think you're overemphasizing the healing ability of the Royal Jelly, if anything. It's not that much of a detriment to the boss fight, especially given the 3* arsenal that you -can- acquire in the meantime (Nightblade packs a punch, Toxic Vaporizer Mk II I -do- believe would neutralize the healing thing anyway).

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:33

Sroell

I'm only T2 (4* gear is

I'm only T2 (4* gear is haaaard), but here's what I think.

I like your idea, but to me the main difference is that all the other bosses have something in their environment that you have to use against them. Beast bell, their own weapons, water. Jelly doesn't have anything.

And I love the Roarmulus Twins! The first time I fought them was in the arcade, with one other person, who had also never fought them. We wasted so much CE reviving ourselves, but man, the way I felt once I figured out the puzzle? Awesome.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:38

Klipik

"perfectly safe behind the barricades"

I have been killed through barricades by splash from rocket explosions. Just sayin~

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 13:09

Ghret

RE: Little-Juances,

RE: Little-Juances, Retequizzle, Sroell
I think his complaint is more to do with the fact that there is NOTHING AT ALL in the previous levels that tell you anything about the capability of the Royal Jelly to heal from absorbing Mini-Jellies, nor that Royal Polyps can spawn these Mini-Jellies, as opposed to the Royal Jelly itself.
What shklee is asking for is for a way to have the levels preceding the Boss to have a way to show that the Boss Battle will have the abilities it has, and how to counteract them.

Unfortunately that will require a complete re-design of the Royal Jelly levels, something that I doubt Three Rings will be willing to do.

And it is near-impossible to starve the Royal Jelly due to toughness of the Polyps and their propensity to revive so often. This makes Starvation a barely/non - viable form of killing the Jelly.

RE: Klipik
That sounds more like a bug to me. Might want report that. Or stick it in the Suggestion Forum. Basically the same thing for the effect they will produce.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 13:54

Qwez

How about...

All mini-jellies can sacrifice their lives to heal any monster. This would make them the "healers" from the jelly family.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 13:56

Gravelord-Caste

What Ghret said. I found the

What Ghret said.

I found the Royal Jelly a tad bit harsh on people who only just find their way into the level the first time. While it shouldn't be so bad with Nightblade spam and Poison, if the players are poorly equipped for the situation and without Curse Vials, then the battle can become a nightmare.

I don't think the level needs a redesign as such, however; just stick in some "Noble Slimes" - smaller versions of the RJ - and replace some of the gun pups with the Mini-chucking Polyps.

Will it help? I don't know. Is it worth a try? Maybe.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 19:02

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

@Retequizzle
But the thing about what you said is that the player has to have crafted those weapons. A new player who's just gotten to the Royal Jelly Palace who doesn't have the extra Crowns or CE to get specialized weapons for a single level.
That's why I want the "starvation" strategy back. New players who didn't foresee the problems they'd face at the Royal Jelly would still have a chance at the boss if that were the case.

@Sroell
If I was Nick or someone else at OOO, that comment you made about the Twins would make me feel so happy. Hell, I'm not in OOO and I'm happy someone had an experience like that!

@Klip
You know what I mean. :P

@Ghret
Thanks for being the first one to fully understand what I was talking about! /highfive
New players are going in absolutely blind into that fight and really getting beat there. We can't always rely on having a vet teach the newbies through each Mission, so making it so they gain the same knowledge for themselves is the best.

And it wouldn't require a total redesign of the Royal Jelly Palace, just switching out some of the enemy spawns. Basically what they did to make the Shadow Lairs. It honestly can't be the most difficult thing in the universe to do (if it is, then OOO needs to work on their coding skills). Plus making a new mini-Royal Jelly, like the idea below, would make the learning process even better for newer Knights.

I don't know why they removed the ability to starve the Royal Jelly in the first place. Having the Polyps respawn constantly instead of at each stage was a wrong move. Knowing that the boss is constantly healing and there's nothing you can do about it is the biggest blow to any player's confidence, especially new Knights.

@Qwez and Gravelord-Caste
That's pretty much what I want. For the players to realize what those Royal Minis are capable of before finding out in the middle of a boss fight.

And if they do make a "Noble Jelly" (replace the Lichens with them since they don't belong in the "cube" family) that would REALLY get the point across. They'd see the big Jelly, notice the purple colors, notice the little purple ones heal them, and know not to let them get close.
Definitely worth a shot in my opinion! Test server is there for a reason, OOO!

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:56

Fehzor

Yeah, royal jelly was poorly thought out. Basically, this happened:
-Royal Jelly was made harder
-Royal Jelly was way too hard, and when polyps came out, the fight "changed"
-Royal Jelly Palace was not designed for the "changed fight", and the levels leading up to the Royal Jelly do not, as you have said, give any indication that there will be an elaborate system of polyps healing the Royal Jelly.

And why the design doesn't matter:
-Royal Jelly is one of the most farmed levels in the game.
-New players want to go with guildies, or with randoms if they don't have that.
-New players run into people who eventually explain the mechanic to them.
-This isn't going to change unless the devs balance their game by making boss stratums pay out very little, and boss tokens pay out very much to players that have not already gotten past the boss, (with break even for those that have). The devs are not likely to do this.

Therefore, any change to the level is unnecessary. I'm all for them fixing the game up, but good luck convincing them that their game is flawed, for they are game designers.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:14

#10

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

@Fehzor
Yeesh. Royal Jelly has had a more colorful history than I realized. That kind of explains the rather messy nature of those levels.

Honestly, it doesn't matter that it's one of the most farmed levels or that veteran players can tell them what to do. The point of level design and game design in general is that players can find these important things out on their own. The fact that the boss was changed multiple times should have also led to the levels before him being changed since the message they were sending about the upcoming fight was completely different. I understand that OOO isn't exactly the most "active" developers, but this is something that should have seriously been considered.
The whole boss level vs. the rest of the Clockworks payout is and will most likely be an ongoing debate, so I'll leave that for other threads and focus more on the matter at hand.

Considering the number of threads cropping up telling OOO rather bluntly that their game is flawed, they really need to be completely ignoring us not to notice.
Plus, OOO needs to watch this. It's a pretty relevant video talking about taking feedback and criticism, especially from playtesting. Something that OOO doesn't seem to big on.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:45

#11

Hariender

i'm sick

bohuhoh

My failed forum was trying to know how many player learn the thing they pass through before boss fight.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:52

#12

Fehzor

Well you're looking at it as if you're trying to solve the problem, which is the logical thing to do. Obviously, doing something like putting royal polyps about and having them to attack some sort of a small miniboss or something would benefit the game in terms of design.

But what I'm trying to point out, is that the royal jelly functions just fine because of the way that the game is broken, and that for the developers, changing the game in such a way would likely take some small amount of time, and would thus not be entirely correct.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 12:40

#13

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

Well, as much as I know the game is broken, that's no reason why I'm going to let things like this slide. I still think they need to fix things up. Especially with an already increasing influx of new players (they're advertising the UI thing sadly) and should the Korean server thing be true, we'll be getting even more. They need to clean up their game lest they lose the chance to hook all of these potential customers. At that point, it's not just bad game design, it's terrible business choices.

So let's really start trying to make OOO hold to their promises (Iron Slug buff, Shard Bombs fix "fix", etc.) and make them clean up the other areas of their game (equipment balance, bugs, and things like this topic itself). Because if we don't, then we're letting down the players who are still trying to stick around and all the new players who would be coming in to see a broken mess that tries to call itself a game.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 12:55

#14

Fehzor

It isn't our job to make sure that Nick makes a good game unless we make it so. Do you really want to try to clean up after Nick as he does the things that he thinks are entirely necessary? I suppose it is nice of you to point these things out for them though, even if in all likelihood they aren't going to be willing to listen.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:34

#15

Klipik

Yes. I think that if we want the game to be better, we have to help it along in every way we can.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 17:48

#16

Zeddy

Royal Jelly Palace constantly keeps you swarmed with jellies and there's a lot of silkwings too. Scenes involving lumbers swarmed with jellies and with silkwings at their back do teach you to deal with healing elements first (or to spread poison). It also teaches you crowd control, which is crucial in the RJ fight.

There's also a fight just before the boss with a lot of lichens. Every time two lichens merge, the new entity is fully healed. This, too, is forewarning of the Royal Jelly's ability to heal itself.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 18:29

#17

Fehzor

The healing elements in the Royal Jelly fight are not self explanatory however. Those small slimes weren't healing anything before. You've never seen those strange dark purple polyps before, what do they do? The royal jelly is healing itself, but how? The butterflies that you were fighting aren't out there- so...

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:13

#18

Deathwlsh

It is part of the game to not

It is part of the game to not know what you are going to get. If you did then it wouldn't be fun. If you really didn't like that you didn't know what was going to be. Then you have a problem with google and youtube.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:23

#19

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

And also the revival rate of the Royal Polyps makes eliminating those healing elements impossible, especially in the Royal Jelly's last stage. So this fight basically hurts you for using what you learned through the stage (though you should have known to kill Silkwings first way before this) because there is no way to rid yourself of the healers. You either have to had known before hand to craft a Poison inflicting weapon or bring a really damaging weapon, things that an early Tier 2 player probably hasn't done and probably doesn't feel like doing even after getting beaten there.

Plus, what Fehzor said. There was never any implication that the Royal minis would be able to do anything beyond tickle your feet... err, pegs. So new players would have to figure out fast that those little buggers heal the Royal Jelly and that the key to stopping them is to take out the Polyps... which doesn't even work anymore due to their respawn rate.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:23

#20

Fehzor

You might not know, but you should be able to quickly figure it out. The game should teach you how to play it subtly, like it does most of the time. This is a commonly accepted idea in game design.

It is easy to just put the player down in front of something, give no explanation, and then have the player lose. It is hard to put the player down in front of something, and to have the player innately know vaguely how to fight that something. The latter is accomplished by having say, beast bells stun beasts in the gloaming wildwoods before having the player fight the Snarbolax. You get to the Snarbolax, find it invincible, and innately know that you have to strike the bell.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:33

#21

Zopyros-Il

Beep Beep Boop

@Deathwish
It isn't a problem about whether a player uses Google or YouTube. It's a problem of the game design where every other level and every other aspect of the game is told to you during gameplay, either via learning it through the game itself (like my examples above) or by Hahn telling you about them (enemy attacks types and their weaknesses, which makes the new enemy info in the top right redundant and implying that we're illiterate idiots).
The Royal Jelly Palace gives no information through the way of gameplay about what to expect from the boss aside from the fact that he's a Jelly and probably wearing a crown.

Some games are meant to be looked up first on those sites. Dark Souls and Minecraft are the best examples since a normal player wouldn't find or even understand half the content of the games without interacting with the community in some fashion. Spiral Knights wasn't meant for that. Everything is presented to you in-game, so you can focus on the game and interacting with the people in it.

Mon, 02/22/2016 - 05:13

#22

Jenovasforumchar

necro, because it is still up to date

first things off: I got directed to this Topic by this thread:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/de/node/113089

@OP:
I remembered when I started the game and when I did hit the jelly for my very first time. And just as an occassion I helped yesterday someone with the jelly Boss who encountered it the first time yesterday...

The truth is that a new Player can kill all other bosses if he just spends enough sparks, but the royal jelly is simply un-doable if you can't out-dps him. When I remember my first few solo attempts, I remember Fails because that Thing did just heal faster than my newly gained blaster could deliver - and my calibur would just get me killed in close combat. Then I did some Research and did read about 'starvation'. To be honest, I see it as a past thing that got changed and isn't up-to-date. When I tried it, These purple heal-minny-throwers just respawned faster than I could cut them down.

Also, poisioning is only possible for a limited time. Either counting by the number of vials you bring or counting the poisioned seconds from your maskeraith; and in the cooldown between, he heals up again.

Let us face it: a Player who fights this Boss when this Boss is unlocked can't beat it. He Needs to go back and get better gear, get more experience and then maybe come back and bring him down.

Fun Thing is: I got 2 fresh noobs into the vana fight and they did do a better Job there than at jelly Palace. The fight is more obvious and once you know that pattern, you can stay alive and eventually bring it down with your trusty protogun.

The Problem with jelly is: a player in its respective gear who sees the jelly the first time is not possible be able to kill it alone even with all sparks and bayond he can find - differently from each other Boss.

Otherwise give each new Player a free tortoshield!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuHqxzPM0g

Mon, 02/22/2016 - 06:13

#23

Bopp

as long as we're necroing

Yes, poison works for a limited time, but I have certainly soloed the Royal Jelly right when he was unlocked (on one of my alts). My strategy has always been to use lots of vials, to keep him suffering from some combination of poison, fire, shock, curse, and maybe stun. I ignore the minis.

Keep in mind that high-star weapons are nerfed when used in shallow parts of the dungeon. Leviathan Blade does only 6% more damage against RJ than the 3-star Tempered Calibur does. In this way it's not surprising for a 3-star player to beat him, right?

In case you joined the game after fall 2011 (I don't know), the Royal Jelly was even harder to beat before then, but we did it with one or two revivals anyway. Cheers.

Mon, 02/22/2016 - 08:40

#24

Sir-Pandabear

Royal Jelly Palace is filled with crowds, silkwings and lichen colonies, I don't understand how you think it doesn't make you use crowd control and deal with healing/regenerating slimes on the way there.

Edit: Oh this is a necro and I said the exact same thing back then.

Mon, 02/22/2016 - 12:37

#25

Jenovasforumchar

@Bopp

You missed the point. right now I did a run against the jelly without any weapons, that is not the idea of this topic. Of course skilled players can epquip with low gear and weapons (or even with no weapons at all) and kill it. But the topic is focusing on a new player. Speaking of a player who does not know what he is facing.

For this have a look on post #3 of this topic:
Vs other bosses you fight, eventually you learn the way the boss works and then you are able to kill it in the end. In the learning phase you are very likely to lose all your throwables and you will also probably have no poisions read (maybe not even from the beginning) when you finally understood the boss.

But differently from other bosses, it is simply not doable after the 'aha'-effect to still be able to kill it. You need a high burst peak damage or you need high overall dps to kill it.

You might have killed it on your first attempt after creating a new alt. But think back: I highly doubt that you killed it the first time you encountered it without experts help.

As someone already said: at one moment you understood the boss and just realize that you can not out-damage it, however hard you may try. The only thing that is left to do is run into a hazard and die or return to haven directly. And that is frustration.

Mon, 02/22/2016 - 13:26

#26

Bopp

agree and disagree

Jenovasforumchar, sorry for missing the point. You are right that an inexperienced player would have much more trouble than an experienced player on an alt. I don't remember whether I had experts along, when I first did RJ. I didn't know any experts, but maybe I'd met some randomly.

However, I'm skeptical of your point about RJ vs. Vanaduke. I've led countless newbies through the RJ fight. I simply tell them: "Attack RJ always, ignoring everything else, while I keep him under status. Apply status if you like, too." And then we kill RJ. It's much simpler to me than Vanaduke, with his five phases, watering the mask but not overwatering it, etc.

Tue, 02/23/2016 - 11:37

#27

Fangel

well actually

There's a lot of new tools to utilize now. New players will probably be playing on normal difficulty, therefore making the fight easier than when this thread was made. They'll be taking less damage and dealing more damage. They also will have battle sprites, which at this point should at least be level 15, meaning they have a source of fire, poison, or a laser that can hit the jelly pretty hard. If you're playing in a party of people, you can have multiple sprites doing multiple things.

So while the royal jelly is the odd one out, it's actually easier than you make it out to be. Playing on normal means you can swing at the royal jelly without knowing much, the monsterous codex outside of the boss room literally tells you to use poison on the boss... Pretty much if you're failing at the royal jelly as a new player then it's your own fault for not reading the signs the game gives you or playing on a difficulty level that fits yourself.

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Royal Jelly Palace doesn't fit other Boss Levels