Spiral Knights - Ranked Lock Down

Ranked Lock Down

18 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 09:06

Theozai

I do enjoy Lock Down, but I also find it infuriating that a competitive mode caters towards veteran players who have better gear. It is, from any design perspective, not a good way to get everyone interested in playing it. currently, I feel Blast Network is a much funner game mode, but it is probably less popular due to the fact that, quite simply, alot of players like their game "broke", and so they play Lock Down to get an edge with their gear.

that said, I feel like there should be a "balanced" version of Lock Down. one that gives each of the 3 classes a unique armor set, unique weapons, and distinctive standard play style differences. this way, they truly feel like different "class roles" and can easily be balanced to create a game that hinges more on teamwork synergy then it does gear effectiveness.

I'm not gonna sit here and describe exactly how this should be done, because I can't, it needs to be extensively test played. that said, feel free to try making it a new playlist, and let the community give direct feedback on the forums of what works and what doesn't. we make good test players, primarily because you don't have to pay us.... all you really have to do is determine a standard. whether that means giving all 3 classes the same gear and weapons but different health, or the same health but different weapons and gear, is up to you.

I only suggest this, because with a balanced mode, you can actually develop a legit ranking system, that will bracket players together in matchmaking based on their performance, rather then what tier of gear they have.... ya know, like a "competitive" game would.

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 09:21

Little-Juances

The problem with predefined classes is that it eliminates variety.
It's easy to balance a game with fewer non-changeable weapons but then it can become dull and boring.

Also people that pay for "overpowered" sets with UVs, trinkets and all are sinking money. That's actually good for us and the game, keeping the economy running.
PvP is bad but the game is about PvE.

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 13:42

Klipik

This is a great idea in theory, but sadly it can't work right now.

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 18:58

Theozai

@Little-Juances have you

@Little-Juances

have you ever played a board game? how does having set rules and standards every game make it "dull and boring"? the goal of a game is not to be so dynamic that every game is different, but rather to be an immersive experience that is interesting and engaging, while also allowing the player/s to enjoy freedoms that are contained within a set of bounds or rules. simple answer, freedom of choice allows a game to be dynamic, but too much freedom breaks the game.

If players are not all on the same level playing field, then the game is not balanced, and thus, cannot be treated as a fair experience. this jerks you out of the immersion of a game, and ruins the experience from time to time when others abuse the games broken freedoms.

that said, it's totally possible to give players options in a Ranked LD. they could give you a "LD Loadout" that you can freely customize while in haven, and limit it's weapons to a list of predetermined ones that are designed for competitive play. or they could just do what I suggested, and have the weapons be class specific. If the game feels too simple, then they need to change the class abilities, or make the weapons more interesting. (not let you buy UV's for the fastest weapon so you can abuse invincibility frames.)

Either way, they can totally do this, without hurting regular Lock Down, just make it a third pvp option, call it "Ranked Lock Down". If players don't want to play it, they won't. I for one, currently only play Lock Down for the soul purpose, of Krogmo coins. that said, I rather play Blast Network anyday, but the playlist is usually uninhabited....

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 22:03

Klipik

All players have to be on the exact same level playing field for the game to be balanced? Extra Credits begs to differ.

EDIT: fixed link.

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 21:56

Hexzyle

@Klipik

Broken link.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 00:08

Pawsmack

@OP/Theozai +0

"I'm not gonna sit here and describe exactly how this should be done, because I can't, it needs to be extensively test played."

You always have to be willing to describe every aspect of your idea to the developers when making a suggestion on the forums. If you don't, other people that have been on the forums for a long period of time will either completely ignore the thread, complain about it being vague, or just act in a sarcastic behavior if they decide to post on it. Sometimes they will take your idea seriously and debate about it even if it's vague or they'll just give advice like I am. Not to mention, the developers won't implement it if it's too vague.

@Klipik

That video actually made sense. I think I might subscribe to the channel! :D

EDIT: Make sure you watch that video too Theozai, it saved me another paragraph. :3

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 01:43

Theozai

@ Pawsmack while I appreciate

sry for the illusion of a wall of text, it's really 3 posts in one.

@ Pawsmack while I appreciate your concern about me needing to "describe every aspect of my Idea", I can't quite explain how they should do something, if I myself have nothing more then the idea (like I said, anything they did would need to be extensively test played for it to be balanced). Developers don't mind hearing ideas either. in fact, you don't need anything more then an idea when your the "developer", because as a developer, you create the content. I don't quite care what everyone's reaction to my post is, so long as they react, it tells me and the developer what the community thinks. I do have concerns that developers will never read this, due to what feels like admins steering clear away from alot of the generic ideas people spew all over this section, but thats why I was straight forward with the title. thanks anyway.

moving on, I guess I'll try to explain a little more, but yeah,

the whole reason I posted this idea, is cause I wanted to suggest "ranked lock down". I don't care how they implement it, it's up to them to decide how the game is balanced. I just want a game mode I can jump into without having to buy the gear for it (preferably one that feels more simple)

unlike the examples used by EC, in the video link, or any other competent game with a wide variety of player options, SK isn't nearly so complex. Speaking of League of Legends in his video, which I could go on a rant about that game for quite some time, I'll just say a few words. It's a fun, imperfect, overly popular game, that has slowly been trying to become balanced for a long time. ultimately it never will be, due to the expectation they established early on of "adding new things" to keep the fan base interested. Had they never established this expectation and continued to deliver, the game would have likely died from losing to it's, many many competitors. now it's so popular that you'd have to pay some people to stop playing it.

unlike LoL however, SK doesn't have different characters....were all the same characters, with the same abilities. so essentially, the game is already "balanced", with the exception of the fact that you can change class whenever you die in Lock Down, and only veteran/wealthy players will have access to the gear needed to be able to function well.

and if were talking about "meta game" here as a point of good game design, sure Lock Down already has one,

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lockdown_Guide

but this doesn't mean that having set weapons for the classes doesn't have it's own "meta game", especially if they tweak classes, pvp exclusive weapons, or the way ranked is done.

that said, the only difference of a "Ranked Lock Down" and the normal one, is that in "ranked", people have a pre-made set of gear, rather then having to work up towards it. this also means that there is a far simpler meta game, probably easier for their target audience to get a hold of. the end result, we get a game mode that focuses more on skill level, and experience, and is easier to master. as a secondary result, people who want to have a more dynamic experience, will play traditional lock down with their OP gear. Social players and achievers will play Ranked, while Killers and explorers will be more attracted to classic Lock Down for it's exploits and it's liberties, but will likely be interested in the ranked as well until they get bored of it.

I'm more of a social player, which is probably why ranked sounds more appealing to me.

@ Kilpik
If you want to discuss some of the ways this idea could work, other then the "vague" ones i've shared, feel free, but try not to be so condescending my ideas, or take me out of context. I didn't say players had to be "exactly the same" for it to be balanced. read my first post, heck, I was suggesting an assymetrical balance if you considered I was focusing on the three classes being different and requiring synergy to win.

for SK PvP, since the game doesn't offer good ways to explore weapons in PvP other then taking all the time to make/buy them first, I was simply trying to suggest there is a way to make PvP player friendly, and not just veteran friendly....

P.S. League of Legends Rune system is counter intuitive to it's own design, by preventing you from having more then a certain number of pages without paying, as part of their FTP market. It forces players to either buy more pages, or be at a complete disadvantage, with no way to counter it other then leaving the game which can be seen by players leaving ranked matchs all the time in order to change their runes, after determining that they had the wrong ones selected for the enemy teams champion picks. League as well as many other games are broken and flawed in many ways, and yet still manage to be fun to play. this doesn't make it "right". The goal is to provide the experience most desired by your target audience. I'm not sure who SK target audience is anymore, perhaps they should figure that out, but either way, I like the game, and I would like to see a "ranked Lock Down" with standard loadouts and interesting class roles to pick from.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 13:22

Klipik

A rank/ladder system is a great idea. It would separate the good players from the "bad", allowing new players to ease their way into the PvP scene by climbing the ladder and giving "pro" players a noob-free playing field. The problem is, you need a larger playerbase to make that happen, or suffer from either 1) excruciatingly long wait times or 2) no difference. #2 will happen because it'll lump the people with the closest ranks together, but even if there are 100 people playing across all 3 tiers (which is high), there aren't enough to effectively separate skill levels. I would really like this to happen, but I don't see a way it can without the playerbase getting a huge boost.

Oh, and people like LD for lots of reasons. I think if you take out having unique gear and restrict it to only specific sets, you take out a lot of the fun. Just the other day, I came up with a new set for maximizing caps (dusker/arc razor/super blaster). Under your system, I never would have been able to do that.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 19:41

Theozai

A rank/ladder system does

A rank/ladder system does depend on a large player base, and I don't remember seeing more then 150 players in LD at a time, and thats on a good day. mostly cause the rest of the game is competing for it's attention, but yeah, even if you made LD a good enough game to stand on it's own merits apart from the rest of SK, it'd still suffer from a small player base. that said, having a ranked ladder system does have some merit, even in smaller groups. it wouldn't be pointless, but it wouldn't do a lot of great, so they could hold off on the ranking system, and just keep to a random matchmaking system.

but yeah, like I was saying, I don't want to "do away" with the original lockdown, I would just like to have a second option that caters towards a more balanced system, without the hassle of gearing up for it.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 20:09

#10

Pawsmack

@Re: Theozai -1

I'll sum this up for you:

You need to be willing to describe every aspect of your idea for the sake of the developers and the players. Why? Mainly because forumers like to see well-thought out ideas that are well-described too, for just that they usually use a "+1" sign in a post to support the thread. Developers need to see that players agree with your idea so they can be fair to everyone playing the game. If they barely see any players supporting your thread, they will not implement it. If you do get a lot of support for your thread then they might either take the entire idea and implement it or just take a chunk/piece out to implement.

Spiral Knights doesn't need a completely new mini game, it just distracts even more players from the PvE aspect of the game. Also as Klipik said, this idea would fail because Spiral Knights player base has nowhere near enough players for another mini game. Just look at Blast Network... I doubt any elitists/clones would go to a "Ranked Lockdown Match" since there's no reason to leave behind their OP equips.

I've been playing Lockdown ever since 2011 November 23rd, still haven't gotten bored of it. I love it.

TL; DR

OOO's needs their players to support the thread before they can make it, so think about the idea well and describe the idea well because players support that stuff. There's not enough of a player base for another mini game, it wll end up like Blast Network. Many people love regular Lockdown.

And finally you should graveyard this, we all now know that it won't work out too well with the amount of players playing the mini game, good concept though.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 20:53

#11

Theozai

@ Pawsmack Orly?

seriously? You don't have to preach to me what the suggestion forums are for. it's a pool of ideas, not a professional pitch board for a group of CEO's. sheesh. and you don't have to put TL;DR after you've only typed 2 small paragraphs as if you didn't expect me to be patient enough to read it, it's a little insulting actually :/

anyway, players don't really need to support an idea for it to get accepted, nor do they need a whole idea. I've had plenty of other developers take my suggestions on just a few, well executed sentences. sometimes, thats all they want to hear out of you. you ever consider that?

It's not as if a game developer is too stupid to understand the whole gist of my idea when I said regarding a ranked version, "one that gives each of the 3 classes a unique armor set, unique weapons, and distinctive standard play style difference. this way, they truly feel like different "class roles" and can easily be balanced to create a game that hinges more on teamwork synergy then it does gear effectiveness." why should I have to explain it any more then that? the game mechanics are already established, the only thing left is to test play things and balance them.

ultimately, a new mini game isn't pointless, if people want to play it, they can easily invite friends and guildies to join the waiting lobby with them.

But I don't expect them to make the playlist, since they have a lot of other priorities. I merely wanted to suggest that "I" would enjoy such a playlist. the whole point of the thread, was to simply suggest that there is a way to tweak a pre-existing game mode, to make it have a ranking system and feel more player friendly.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 22:33

#12

Klipik-Forum

About suggestions

Initial Suggestions don't have to be completely detailed, they just have to get down the important parts. What's important about the details is that you have some concept of the functionality and implementation in your head, and that you can say and develop them when questioned.

And a quick note:
"SK doesn't have different characters....were all the same characters, with the same abilities"
This would be true, if everyone who played LD had the every piece of gear. Every weapon, every armor set, is a different "class" of knight with different abilities. You could think of it like in TF2 - you have snipers (Magnus/alch gunners), spies (recon/GF), heavies (guardian plate tanks lololol), etc. within those "classes" we can have different weapons with the same general function, and different abilities - but the main point here is that depending on what gear you choose, LD plays out in a completely different way. Everyone theoretically has access to everything, but that won't realistically happen.

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 03:42

#13

Severage

This would be true, if everyone who played LD had the every piece of gear.

Sorry, I think I misread that.

Are you saying there are some people who don't use Skolver and Flourishes?

~Sev

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 16:42

#14

Pawsmack

Re: Theozai -1 (isn't priority, nor can it work out)

You misunderstood me. OOO's wants their players to agree with an idea. If there are many responses hating the idea, why would they give their players exactly what they don't want? Also, notice how I said it was, "mainly" because of that. Not 100% of the reason.

Next up, the reason I put up a TL; DR version because there's an entire community viewing my comment. Plenty of people just want to get straight to the point, or they just don't have too much time to waste. So don't take that personally.

I never said that the developers were too stupid to get the gist of your idea, I said that they had to see that their player base agreed with it, that way they don't add in something that everyone would completely hate. I said that it was a good concept too. I wasn't just blowing up your idea because it sounded "unprofessional," I was agreeing with Klipik that we don't have enough players that are willing to switch over to that. Heck, sometimes I can't even find a regular Lockdown match, what are the chances of finding one in your version? Pretty low I'm assuming.

I won't make a TL; DR version this time.

@Noklip

Yes, thank you.

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 16:54

#15

Anthrom

here is a better suggestion.

Keep LD the way it is and add a new pvp game that would have a mix of predifined classes like BN but also some freedom of choosing a lot of well balanced classes.

It would be worth of team fortress 2 but in a spiral knights way and it would be capture the flag or something.

The game would be as same as LD's teer variety but with some restrictions.

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 17:10

#16

Klipik

That's... 99% the same as the OP. The only difference you made was providing more than one loadout, which really doesn't solve the "freedom of innovation" problem. And since you're talking about adding this on top of LD, you run into the same problem of "there's just not enough people."

Thu, 04/18/2013 - 10:02

#17

Theozai

we are getting into the

we are getting into the whole, "game B, competes with game A for attention, yet game B is a mini game within Game A, and is therefor dependent" but, one way a lot of multiplayer games are made "playable" is that they just add Bots. now I'm sure there has been someone at some point on this forum to have recommended AI Bots for Lock Down. probably got shot down due to the fact that the game is supposed to be a "competition" but AI doesn't really change that so much as it removes the importance of "player ranking", which doesn't currently exist anyway....

that said, I wouldn't mind Bots balancing teams in a competitive mode either, cause to me, I'm playing it for fun, and with winning in mind, so having a "6th" player that is a bot take a players place on my team when they leave the game early, isn't going to hurt my performance. that said, the enemy having that same benefit, makes it feel a little more like every game is full of players. Sure it might be easier to rack up Krogmo Coins with this, but the total amount of crowns you have to spend to play enough matches to get a recipe is like.....well, it's more then the recipe is worth by a lot, not to mention the time investment required to win the coins, so I feel like Bots would solve a lot of issues, and allow more modes of play.

Thu, 04/18/2013 - 12:06

#18

Klipik

My problem with bots is that so far, OOO has not demonstrated a great amount of skill in making AIs. They would just end up being damage sponges.

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