Spiral Knights - Warp-Master repairs the Forge

Warp-Master repairs the Forge

23 replies [Last post]

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 10:26

Warp-Master

All right, it's obvious that a large number of people around here rather dislike the new Forge feature. Now, I'm thinking that there might be a reason for that beyond simple resistance to change. Doing a scan of Suggestions and General Discussion, I've come up with some possibilities.

The failure rate is annoying, and the chances are allegedly lies, meaning that you have to Max forge everything.
It forces you to stop at an arsenal station every time your weapon levels up for peak efficiency.
Fire Crystals below your highest star level are utterly useless. You can't trade them, you can't auction them, you can't even sell them to NPCs for crowns.
It broke something that didn't need fixing.

I bolded that last one because it's especially important. You don't monkey with fundamental mechanics like that without having a very good reason. Since I'm such a charitable fellow, I'm not going to immediately go "OMG OMG OOO = NEXON AAAAA" and get this thread graveyarded. (If this thread is graveyarded without any kind of response, I'll be severely disappointed, as I put quite a bit of thought into the following.) Instead I'm going to attempt to guess at the intentions of those lovely folks at Three Rings.

I'm a newcomer to these forums, but from the local chatter I suspect that the dev team has been trying to stamp out the phenomenon of people getting carried through to Tier 3 by their friends or guild without any actual effort. (Incidentally, this also explains the instancing of crowns and other pickups, but that's for another thread where I will suggest a solution to this problem superior to the attempt made by Three Rings.) However, in doing so, they committed a cardinal sin: they made gameplay more tedious for legitimate players, with no visible and significant benefit to those players. This is a fantastic way to drive people away from your game, by the way; budding game designers take note.

The way to repent for this sin is obvious: Make things work the way the did before. However, this brings another problem: what are we supposed to do with Fire Crystals? We can't use them for heating gear, since we just fixed that. What else can we use them for?

We can use them to apply UVs to our existing gear.

First, reduce the drop rate of Fire Crystals since they're not critical functionality anymore. Replace Punch's existing functionality with a new UV system that accepts Fire Crystals. For transitional purposes, he would still accept Variant Tickets and require a ludicrous amount of Fire Crystals to add variants to get the pre-change crystals out of the economy, dropping quickly over time. In addition, Fire Crystals could (as others have suggested) be separated by Tier instead of by star, and you can either convert between the tiers or use large amounts of low-tier crystals instead of smaller amount of higher-tier crystals. Or maybe the number and quality of the UVs added would depend on both the number and type of Fire Crystals used, so you could throw a ton of 1* and 2* Fire Crystals at a 5* weapon and still get results. And while we're at it, make NPC vendors accept Fire Crystals like any other bound item.

The new system would work like the Forge, with multiple settings that give increasing chances of getting good UVs. A failure rate wouldn't be as annoying in this system as it is in the current Forge, since a failed UV add just means that your gear isn't as twinked out as it could be, whereas in the current system a failed forge means denial of advancement and additional grinding. Punch's current role as a crown sink could still be fulfilled by a variety of means. For example, Punch could charge a crown fee to, say, add UVs to a T3 weapon with T1 crystals. Another option would be selling "Guaranteed Variant Tickets" that provide a 100% chance of getting UVs regardless of the nominal failure rate.

Now, about those problems:

The failure rate is far less annoying in this system.
Heating doesn't need a stop at an arsenal station for every level.
Fire Crystals below your highest star level are still useful, since you can use them to add UVs on your high-tier items or sell them for crowns.
A well-designed system remains well-designed.

TL;DR: Make heating work like it did before. Make Punch take Fire Crystals instead of Variant Tickets. Adding UVs now works like the Forge does now. Make all types of Fire Crystals useful to players of all levels. Incorporate new crown sinks into the new UV system.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 10:54

Quinzal

+100

THANK YOU

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:12

Warp-Master

@Quinzal

That's all well and good, but what I need is feedback. Do you think my solution above is balanced? Would it upset the UV market to an an unacceptable degree? Do you have any ideas for more crown sinks?

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:12

Warp-Master

@Quinzal

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:26

Demonicsothe

To me, this whole forge and

To me, this whole forge and instanced loot was a change that was required in order to make elevators free. Otherwise, free heat/crowns for dragging alts across floors. This means that OOO had to slow down progression somehow. In that past, progression was limited, in the beginning, by the floors you can reach. Once you have the gear for rjp, you can grind out the heat to upgrade gear and eke out a somewhat small amount of crowns to upgrade them, all running on ce. Same idea for fsc, except that the heat and crown payout is much larger.

All this to remove the elevator cost and subsequently the mist energy system. This means that sk won't scare away as many newcomers as they used to on the limited playtime one was given. After all, most people get hooked on a game by trying it out in the first hour and liking what they see.

This means that the forge system, as disliked as it is, has to stay. Or someone has to offer a suggestion that may be more favorable than the current system. But it still has to slow progression. After all, this isn't just a flash game on a browser.

I do agree with finding a use for the crystals that you would likely never use. The idea for crafting them up the stars has been suggested, and is a good idea. I also like your idea of using them for uvs and crownsinks.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:34

Julv

I would definitely go for a

I would definitely go for a way to convert fire and I think it would fix a lot of what's so annoying about the current system, but going both up and down the spectrum is necessary as well. Should I really have to go and play a bunch of low-level areas because I want to make a new piece of gear?

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 13:30

Coelydragon

I disagree. Yes, the rate is absolutely broken but there is only one other thing wrong with it, which I'll get to later. This current system is here to prevent players from racing through the game too easily. It effectively stops players much like the HoH used to, but it causes the player to slow down, rather than stop completely. It is a counterbalance to the removal of mist and the CE required in crafting. The rate seems broken; another error on the devs part, along with the many typos and possible misinformation which I hope is soon to be patched.

The other problem is crystal drop rates. I cannot heat my Glacius because I don't receive enough orbs. Now, I can get more crystals by the Supply Depot but psh. The other way is through the arcade, in which I am underprepared to do S6, or the mission system in which I don't have access to low enough depths. I have t3 access in the arcade, as opposed to those trapped in the 4* HoH who must either not heat their upgraded equipment, buy the crystals at an expensive price, or join parties in which they will be slaughtered before finding any crystals; they do not have access to any proper depths. In fact, even if they do get invited and survive, the amount found in a depth will force them to grind endlessly, gaining enough crowns to buy several more 4* sets-if only they could heat their 3* gear. That is, if they even get enough invites to grind.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 13:34

Quinzal

Still +100

Sorry, I was just so blown away by how good this was that I forgot my feedback.
In my opinion, the old heating system was perfectly fine and dandy, even though it took long sometimes. I grinded through 20 Jelly King runs to get that Demo Suit up to level 10, so I could join my friends Shadow Lair run tommorow and make Mercurial. If that had happened now, I would still be at level 5, grinding not only for levels but for enough heat crystals so that I dont have to heat it all over again.

Your idea would not upset the UV market. If anything, it will make it more diverse. Alright, I found some heat crystals. I already have UVs on everything, why not put it on my shield. And then I put it on my shield. Oh, I dont want this shield. I put it in the AH. It allows for you to do alot more with the UV system, and you dont need to grind crowns.

Also, I have stacks of cracked crystals that I dont need. :c

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 13:59

Waffleconecake

I would much rather have the

I would much rather have the success rate it be higher. I have yet to have a single forge that was not 100% work. I also have never had any of the "special things" happen from the 100% forges.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 14:59

Coelydragon

@Quinzal

You aren't getting it. His idea is completely revamping it to overfix a few problems that I did mention. You want to remove this system because of those few problems. There are errors that desperately need to be fixed, but this is more than just that fix.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 15:07

#10

Quinzal

@Coely

Did not see your post at the time.
About racing through the game too quickly, people brought this up to me on a rant thread I made in the test server forum. If people want to rush through and not enjoy it, why not let them? Plus, rushing through most likely means they bought alot of energy to make it able for them to rush through, so its a money sink for OOO.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 15:11

#11

Demonicsothe

It could mean a large amount

It could mean a large amount of money at once for OOO, but what comes after that? They leave. If a person stays on long enough, they get exposed to lots of promos and content that OOO releases, which may prompt some to spend some money. And everyone likes a good deal.

Another part of it could be that the longer a person stays on, the more chances he will have to recommend sk to a friend. I can barely remember the flash games I've played over the last three years, save a couple memorable ones.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 15:24

#12

Coelydragon

@Quinzal
Why would anyone need a lot of energy? Also, it's more profitable to have them linger. People who stay in stores longer are more prone to buying things than those who rush through.

@Demonicsothe
Exactly.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 15:31

#13

Warp-Master

@Demonicsothe

I'm aware that the new heat system and instanced loot are to keep people from zooming alts through the game; did you read the OP? I have an idea to keep that from happening; I'll make a separate thread for it later, but it basically amounts to porting TF2's anti-idling system to Spiral Knights.

As for the idea of breezing through the game, I'm not exactly sure how one is supposed to fix that (assuming that tying gear/Tier clearance to the Prestige treadmill isn't enough of a roadblock) without adding some kind of inherent time gate that forces you to take a break or interfering with legitimate play. (Actually, what does heating have to do with slowing progress anyway? The stat gain from level 10 isn't that big.) If anyone has a solution that provides a non-artificial speed-bump to progress without inconveniencing players progressing at the intended rate, I'm all ears.
What I'm sure of is that the current situation is untenable. Again, in my opinion "fixing" play-pattern issues like this in a way that affects intended play is worse than leaving the problem alone. I'm with Quinzal, let rushers rush, it's not like they're inconveniencing us normal people or anything.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 15:36

#14

Coelydragon

@Warp-Master

How to stop people from breezing through the game...hmm... Well we removed Mist Energy. How about we add an item that people need to level up their weaponry? That way they need to hunt down a bunch of them and it slows them down while allowing them to enjoy the game? And while we're at it, since it's heat related we can call them fire crystals.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 15:52

#15

Warp-Master

@Coelydragon

I see you didn't read the OP.

And before you mention Orbs of Alchemy, those are fine, since you need to stop crawling to craft items anyway.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 16:34

#16

Coelydragon

@Warp-Master

I did read it, in fact. And I wasn't going to mention Orbs because I'm totally fine with those too. I like them. However, your system is a major overhaul when all that needs to be done is fix the drop rate of each type for each stratum and fix the probability so that it's accurate.

Now did you read my post? #6

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 17:00

#17

Shotjeer

Huh.

I got the double level up and 25% heat thingie twice in a row today alone. I will admit that the rates are completely broken(Seriously, 5 failures in a row on 90%?), but I just want to point out that the specials do work, you just gotta fork in a ton of crystals.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 17:12

#18

Echo-Twothree

I got a 75% to work.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 17:38

#19

Demonicsothe

Right so I read your post,

Right so I read your post, then I posted again. i went back to re-read it.

"The way to repent for this sin is obvious: Make things work the way the did before. However, this brings another problem: what are we supposed to do with Fire Crystals? We can't use them for heating gear, since we just fixed that. What else can we use them for?"

After that was the proposed usage of fire crystals, and I liked that idea because it was pretty clever. But nowhere did I see anything that would slow down progression because in the end, that's what all replacement of the current system has to have.

Unless OOO decides that it's okay to get T3 in a day from rescue camp.

And I was not throwing out the possibility of dragging alts at you to crush your idea. it was simply a little background as to why OOO added this heat system

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 02:43

#20

Glormen

Number of Crystals.

The only thing i dislike about the new system is the sheer amount of crystals needed to go up one level at later teirs of gear, if they bumped it down by like 15-20% i'd be ok with it. It seems excessive.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 09:33

#21

Warp-Master

MULTI-RESPOND GO

@Coelydragon:
"You aren't getting it. His idea is completely revamping it to overfix a few problems that I did mention. You want to remove this system because of those few problems. There are errors that desperately need to be fixed, but this is more than just that fix."

Really? My intention when posting this rant/suggestion was to find a way to bring back the old heating system without throwing away the effort put into the Forge. The whole post just sort of grew from that.

@Demonicsothe:
"After that was the proposed usage of fire crystals, and I liked that idea because it was pretty clever. But nowhere did I see anything that would slow down progression because in the end, that's what all replacement of the current system has to have.

Unless OOO decides that it's okay to get T3 in a day from rescue camp.

And I was not throwing out the possibility of dragging alts at you to crush your idea. it was simply a little background as to why OOO added this heat system"

Again, I don't think heating is really much of a concern for people who want to get to T3 in a day. The Forge was made either to a) force people to either spend more money on energy to advance or b) make dragging alts even less efficacious. (I mentioned that in the OP, by the way.)

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 09:38

#22

Defest

already heated all my stuff before update

Never going to craft again. My crowns will be going into my Battle Sprite and random accessories I don't need.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 09:59

#23

Demonicsothe

Heating is quite a bit of

Heating is quite a bit of concern for the people who wishes to obtain endgame items as fast as possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there restrictions on what tier gear you can wear AND what depths one can reach? It used to be that having 2 or 3* gear, forgetting which, grants you access to T2. 4* allows you to enter T3. The new changes up to this point made it so that you need more gear than that to enter the lower depths.

So that's where I disagree with you. The forge was made to slow progression, making people farm fire crystals on top of getting the base heat to each level. Energy was always required to advance, this system actually means it is possible to progress without spending energy, by farming all the required materials and rarities. I'm sure there's still plenty people who remember the ce cost to craft that couldn't be reduced in any way besides using mist.

Alt dragging for more cr payout was dealt with by the instanced loot, not forge. An alt that you're dragging means you aren't using it. I don't doubt that people dragged alts to give them more heat so they can upgrade gear. But if you wanted a weapon, crafting it on your main is just as good as dragging alts.

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Warp-Master repairs the Forge