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[Repost] Doctorspacebar on Sparks of Life *FEEDBACK WANTED*

8 replies [Last post]
Wed, 08/07/2013 - 15:34
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master

Moving this from Testing Feedback so it's more visible and because Doctorspacebar seems to be not playing anymore. Note that in the testing server, Mist was still present and the fee for Sparkless revival was 10 energy. Keep this in mind when reading. Also note that this was published in a special forum specifically designed so that Three Rings could modify the update to incorporate player feedback, and it was completely ignored.

"This is much like another situation. Listen to this, Three Rings- this is a comparison.

I used to play RuneScape, and they were having a lot of trouble with "real world item traders", which basically meant "people selling RuneScape items and gold for real cash". This was a problem. To "fix" the problem, Jagex (the guys that ran RuneScape) created a trade cap that prevented anyone from trading over around 10,000 gold worth of items. It got rid of most real world item traders. However, it also stopped people from giving completely innocent gifts, and player-killing, one main draw of the game, was severely hampered.

Three Rings, you are doing the same thing to get rid of alt draggers, except for a few things.

-1: Alt draggers are doing nothing NEARLY as illegal or immoral as real world item traders.

-2: Removing health revives removes a huge reason to party in the first place.

-3: Removing health revives will not even stop the problem completely since the alts can still use their mist to revive.

-4: Your reasoning is flawed; the system you have in place means that two team members with two pips of health will take more total hits than one team member with four pips of health if any enemy can deal more than three damage, and this is almost always the case in the game's most difficult content. Don't kid yourself, this is only putting a damper on party survivability.

-5: There are three kinds of difficulty. Real difficulty comes from the monsters, traps, and level design. Fake difficulty comes from inflating monster hit points and attack power to obscene levels without any real change. Stupid difficulty is basically fake difficulty with the added bonus of being downright detrimental to enjoyment of the game, and that's what removal of health reviving really is. The dead guy won't enjoy being dead the entire time, and the other guys, even if the dead guy doesn't beg, will still feel a bit of guilt for leaving the poor guy dead on the ground.

-6: Sparks of life are an obvious money grab. This'll only tick people off, so much so that I expect income overall to drop.

-7: In the same token, Sparks of Life cheapen the game- being able to revive twenty times in a Shadow Lair for less than it cost you to get in is directly equivalent to making the game easier.

I will be blunt.
REMOVING HEALTH REVIVING WILL BE OBJECTIVELY DETRIMENTAL TO THE GAME. DO NOT FIX WHAT IS NOT BROKEN."

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 23:09
#1
Doctorspacebar's picture
Doctorspacebar
Pistol is best weapon in TF2

I'm still playing!

Anyway, let's look at what we've got now. I have few objections to the new crafting system, but the new revive system's still the same. Let's have a re-count at these seven things.

"1: Alt draggers are doing nothing NEARLY as illegal or immoral as real world item traders."
This hasn't changed at all.

"2: Removing health revives removes a huge reason to party in the first place."
It still appears to remove a huge reason to party. Unless you want to mooch off of someone else's sparks.

3: Removing health revives will not even stop the problem completely since the alts can still use their mist to revive."
Well, okay, now that point is kinda moot since mist is gone. I admit, you can't really alt drag as efficiently here. That said, someone good at shielding will just be able to knock monsters away... unless you're talking about, say, Trojans. Plus, who alt drags when YOU GET FREE ELEVATOR RUNS?

"4: Your reasoning is flawed; the system you have in place means that two team members with two pips of health will take more total hits than one team member with four pips of health if any enemy can deal more than three damage, and this is almost always the case in the game's most difficult content. Don't kid yourself, this is only putting a damper on party survivability."
The numbers are still the same. Sonic Mode is still in full effect. Let's not forget what Fire would do to that one team member with four pips!

"5: There are three kinds of difficulty. Real difficulty comes from the monsters, traps, and level design. Fake difficulty comes from inflating monster hit points and attack power to obscene levels without any real change. Stupid difficulty is basically fake difficulty with the added bonus of being downright detrimental to enjoyment of the game, and that's what removal of health reviving really is. The dead guy won't enjoy being dead the entire time, and the other guys, even if the dead guy doesn't beg, will still feel a bit of guilt for leaving the poor guy dead on the ground."
This is true. However, this is seeming less of a problem because of the high drop rate of Sparks of Life (more on that later).

6: "Sparks of life are an obvious money grab. This'll only tick people off, so much so that I expect income overall to drop."
Now that mist and elevators are gone, perhaps they need this money grab. Then again, Sparks of Life drop like no tomorrow.

7: "In the same token, Sparks of Life cheapen the game- being able to revive twenty times in a Shadow Lair for less than it cost you to get in is directly equivalent to making the game easier."
This I can easily stand by. Sparks of Life drop at a very high rate, making it easy for someone to just plow through T1 Treasure Vaults on Elite to save up for a Shadow Lair- it's like going back to World 1-1 and stockpiling lives for Bowser's Castle.

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 03:15
#2
Blitzsonic's picture
Blitzsonic
I agree with this. OOO tries

I agree with this. OOO tries to fix the alt farming and breaks the game for normal players by doing so.(this also happens with nerfing things, like the orb drop rate). My question is, is it so bad to allow alt farming ?

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 03:41
#3
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

well, yes. it gives an advantage that not anyone can get (running more than one client at a time takes a medium computer, not everyone can handle that). also, it was not intended in the game. and, is alt farming allower in other MMO? many of them have the rule "one account, one person".

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 07:13
#4
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
Alt farming isn't the problem

Alt farming isn't the problem here. I'm really not sure what Doctorspacebar was talking about there. The problem is that the new revive system is cheap as all get-out while also being less fun.

Please post here, people. I'll be using your feedback to come up with a revive system that will hopefully combine the best of both the health-centric system and the Spark-centric system.

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 12:21
#5
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
As much as I hate bumping...

I feel I have to. I really need feedback from all members of the community, from Vanguards to partiers to soloists to those like me who are stuck in the awkward transition from Tier 2 to Tier 3. I want my comprehensive revive suggestion to be the best it can possibly be.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 01:32
#6
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
:<

I've thought about this a lot, and I can't think of a system that doesn't allow alt dragging yet does allow teamwork. Besides reverting back to the old system and banning Alts, which you can't really do because lots of people have spent lots of money on Alts.

Don't mind the capital Alts everywhere, my phone has that set to autocorrect for some reason. Too lazy to change >_>

Wed, 08/14/2013 - 20:23
#7
Greenitthe
Not to horribly necro, but this looked interesting

As a CE buying vanguard soloer with a measly 10 days on my main, my two cents on the issue is that back on the old system the heat for health revive was not necessarily game breaking, but annoying when people spent time that I could use doing FSC or some other run heating off of revives, so I was glad to see that go. I was also apprehensive about the new revive system but I have found it to be better over all, since it means you need to have some skill to do elite and higher ranked missions.
- The spark/emergency revive system really benefits both soloers and group-runners because as a soloer you might die once or twice on a level, and so this way you don't waste nearly as much energy on revives, while as a group player you can run through much smoother as a group because you don't have to waste your hearts on someone else.
- Alt dragging is a problem I could really care less about as a player, though as a developer it would be a huge problem that some people could get ahead easily. I may be isolated in my non-hatred of alt draggers, but if not then proper gameplay should be put above fixing the alt dragging issue.
- On point 2: I usually joined a party for the sake of having more firepower to clear gates faster rather than for revives. (Though I can't say I didn't get my fair share of them from my party).
- On point 4: "Don't kid yourself, this is only putting a damper on party survivability." I'm not sure what was trying to be said by this, but the party with 2 members at 2 bars will have a higher chance of surviving than the party with 1 member at 4 if they are all the same skill level, because while 1 party member of group 1 gets killed, the other can continue to fight, while the group 2 member will die and have to rev to keep fighting, thus increasing party survivability (this is where the heart system comes in handy because the second member can get the other member back up, doubling survival chance|the emergency rev system comes in handy with both groups, though still favoring group 1)
- On point 5: The difficulty part is correct, but the part about sparks leads me to this: Don't suck and you won't waste sparks. If you are losing sparks (even though I believe they nerfed the drop rate since Doctor's reply, this still applies) you may be under skilled or under geared for the area, so you should leave and come back later since elevators are free. (The exception is that P2W guy who buys a shadow key and revs his way through it)
- On point 6: Sparks are less of a money grab than old revive system, because as long as you stock up before a level when you are low, you get off with cheaper revives. On the old system, dieing 5 times in a level left you facing a steep wall for revs, increasing the need for CE, increasing CE purchases. Also sparks drop, thus decreasing the greediness of them. Though because of these points, yes, income may drop.
- On point 7: Think of this as a reward for all the hard work you did finding the shining fire crystals for your 4* crafts. (Radiants are way more common since FSC drops them, and if you do 20 runs a day or something crazy, you can power level your 5* stuff)
- As long as I keep my emergency rev, I am pretty sure they can't mess up the system too badly. I would like to see the health rev feature back, minus the heat transfer, because that is damn annoying. Also, buffing the arcade would be good since there is hardly a reason to bother with changing gates and running it (though they did make a good attempt at this by making treasure vaults not suck and, if my memory serves, there is no mission with a TV in it).

Thu, 08/15/2013 - 09:31
#8
Raisinfist's picture
Raisinfist
With Greenitthe on the necro

As somebody who was a Vanguard before the update in question, I saw nothing wrong with health revives. True, people did sometimes waste time in FSC grabbing heat, and with elevators alt dragging helped a bit towards heat.

Now:
-Alt dragging for heat purposes is useless due to the Forge anyway, even if the old revive system was still in place.
-As before mentioned, alt dragging is now effectively useless since all elevators are free.
-No health revives. Sucks to be people who only have 5 health bars and/or bad lag.
-Sparks of life dropping is OK; actually, the revive system in place now is good enough in that Sparks drop randomly. Revive costs should go up to discourage sloppy playing, though. Think that spark drop rates should be made higher in deeper levels of the Clockworks, proportional to difficulty.
-People who have to AFK for a few minutes will find themselves dead on the floor, despite their having an ER; it gets spent and then removed again.

So, I think the solution is:
-Bring back health revives, maybe without the heat bonus.
-Adjust the current system so that the revive cost increases every time you die; maybe by one Spark every death (ie. 0 sparks (ER), 1 spark, 2 sparks' cost to revive each death).
-Adjust the Spark drop rate so that deeper floors have a higher chance to drop Sparks.
-Perhaps make the Emergency Revive non-automatic.

That's probably more than 2 cents.

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