Spiral Knights - Fix the imposter swords! (GF, DA, and Elemental/Shadow Brandishes)

Fix the imposter swords! (GF, DA, and Elemental/Shadow Brandishes)

15 replies [Last post]

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:28

Autofire

A few swords are impersonating guns:

Acheron and predecessors
Voltedge and predecessors
Combuster and predecessors
Glacius and predecessors
Gran Faust and predecessors
Divine Avenger and predecessors

A few swords have the potential to become Brandish-like, but do so for balance reasons:

Cautery Sword
Brandish
Winmillion and predecessors
Wrench Wand
Most T1 sword and the T2 Edge swords

Swords, in real life at least, hit in front of you. Many of these gun-like swords remove the need of getting a varied loadout, i.e. bringing a gun or a bomb. This dulls the game down because you can clear any challenge using these weapons. That means...

BALANCE TIME! (While I will only mostly discuss the 5* versions, this goes for all predecessors except 2* Brandish and 3* Sealed Sword.)

Divine Avenger:
- Animation: Thrusts sword into ground. Has moderate ending lag.
- Effect: Stab does some damage to an enemy in a tiny area in front of the user. Creates 3 (1 for 4* Avenger) sword-shapes, one after the other, where the user stabbed. (They come out within half a second.) These false swords fly to a random enemy within a small area of the user, as well as pierce enemies. If there is an Undead enemy in the AoE, the sword-shapes focus on that enemy. If there are no valid targets, nothing happens after the stab.
Gran Faust:
- Animation: Holds sword up horizonally.
- Effect: This is random. It can get one of the following, with curse resistance/weakness determining the chance that the user will get a bad result:
  - Creates a phantom which fights for the user. Lasts 8 seconds. (4 seconds for 4* Faust.) Rare success effect.
  - Greatly boosts the chance of inflicting Curse with Gran Faust/Faust. Common success effect.
  - Creates a small knockback explosion (No damage), inflicting Curse and Stun to the user. Common fail effect.
  - Creates a phantom which attacks the user. Lasts 8 seconds. (4 seconds for 4* Faust.) Rare fail effect.
  This would make it more of a "Test your luck" charge without creating a projectile.
Combuster:
- Animation: A heavy, slow swipe.
- Effect: This must stay true to its description! Therefore, it will! After the swipe, the closest enemy within a tight cone in front of the user will get a second long haze created in their spot. This works like Drakon's 3rd skill, doing no damage but dealing a very strong fire. This doesn't work on switches, even if an enemy is close to the switch. Lower level variations have a weaker effect and shorter range.
Ancheron:
- Animation: A heavy, slow swipe.
- Effect: Once again, this must stay with its description. The swipe does high damage. After the charge, the user gets inflicted with Bezerk for 6-9-12 seconds. This has a few effects:
  - Defense is cut in half.
  - Damage is doubled.
  - Attack speed and movement speed is increased somewhat.
  - Inflicted knight may not change weapons.
  - Killing an enemy will take off 3 seconds of the status's lifetime.
  - Sprite skills may not be used until the effect ends.
Glacius:
- Animation: A heavy, slow swipe.
- Effect: Does moderate damage as well as Freeze. If the enemy is killed within a short time during or after being frozen, the enemy explodes into a cloud of subzero gas. This haze freezes with a similar freeze to that of the charge attack, possibly creating a chain reaction.
Voltedge:
- Animation: A spin attack.
- Effect: Wait, weren't we doing swipes? Nope, this is a spin because it is unique out of all the Brandishes. The spin does no knockback, but moderate damage. After the spin, the user is surrounded in a cyclone. This cyclone pushes and shocks any enemy which enters in a small area around the user. This also boosts the user's speed at 5*. The user's defense drops slightly for the duration of the cyclone for balance reasons.

Okay, now...

Deploys Crest of Almire.

Give me all the rants you've got! (Though tell me how to make this a better suggestion pweeze!)

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 14:05

Remove-The-Forge

May I remind you that this is

May I remind you that this is a fantasy game?

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 14:30

Thunder-The-Bright

@cirno: may I remind you that brandishes are a little OP and too easy to use?
anyway, good work. but for combuster, couldn't you borrow the ability of violent heart attack instead? seems more fitting, and has more uses.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 15:21

Waffleconecake

we could I dunno... give them

we could I dunno... give them their each own charge attack so they would be at least different?

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 15:34

Remove-The-Forge

Well, just make the brandish

Well, just make the brandish lines harder to obtain.

This balances, makes everyone selling said lines on the AH be able to sell them for probably double their current price... everyone's happy!

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 16:10

Orangeo

Brandishes aren't that OP,

Brandishes aren't that OP, and sealed sword line charges certainly aren't unbalanced. If you're supporting this for balance reasons, don't.

As for personal taste, I can understand, but I like having impostor weapons like the old crystal bomb.

One thing I would like to see would be faster charge times coupled with lower damage. So it feels more like a secondary move than a special attack.

I'd also like some dash attacks, would look cool on the nightblade line. Drawing a blade and moving half a screens length, slicing all enemies you pass through and knocking back the one at the end. Or perhaps it could be based off the old attack, and any enemies you hit will have an explosion spawn where they were. Makes it less bomblike like you want (since you don't just plant bombs, you have to hit enemies with melee) and also more cool.

Also I really dislike the gran faust suggestion.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 21:20

Cyderiax

...

"Many of these gun-like swords remove the need of getting a varied loadout, i.e. bringing a gun or a bomb."

I call BS on this statement. You don't know how much times I brought out my Argent Peacemaker out while going up against Kats because they are almost impossible to deal with using swords in T3 without getting damage, even with the range attack of Sealed Sword Line weapons or even with what everybody keeps calling the "OP brandish line" weapons. I have a Combuster which is considered to be the most powerful of the brandish line weapons, and I keep dying to kats with their insane dashing everywhere and Sealed Sword Line weapons do not help with how slow they are without ASI boosts. Before I got an Argent Peacemaker, I HATED going through Candlestick Keeps because it's nearly impossible for me to not die no matter what swords I brought.
By getting an Argent Peacemaker, not only am I now able to go through Candlestick Keeps without dying left and right all the time, but I no longer fear them like mad, and no longer die like mad while engaging Kats, because I have a decent range attack.
I can also kill Howlitzers AND blow them up before they reach me with a gun. I can snipe unreachable turrets if I have a gun with me. If there was a turret that was unreachable by a sword's normal slash, would you really try and spam charge attacks a Divine Avenger, noting that DA's charge attack also prevents you from moving to kill them and keeping in mind that the projectile really does mediocre damage or gun them, keeping in mind that most guns still allow you to move while shooting? Also... FIENDS.
There are also guns out there that can interrupt turrets and stuff too. And other examples that I haven't listed where bringing guns with you would be useful.
Bombs also have their uses, such as Graviton/Electron Bomb and then a Brandish Line charge. Or something like shivermist buster, which can save your life if used right.
Remove the need of getting varied loadout like bringing a gun or bomb? Complete BS from my personal experiences.

Besides if Phantoms can shoot projectiles with their charge attack, T3 Mecha Knights shoot bullets with their charge attack, T3 Thwackers get the ability to throw their axes at you and Overtimers get the ability to either whack you with their spear or throw it at you, why should we not get a projectile charge ability with our swords? This is a fantasy game after all.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 23:18

Ember-Break

... Are you serious?

Please tell me you're trolling. Please.

You even said "in real life at least" so please, please tell me you're trolling. This is not real life, this is SK, where we can use limitless amounts of shells/energy projectile bullets and somehow carry all of our heavy weapons in our shield without them being seen. We also manage to immediately restock on bombs as if we're using Copy and Paste continuously. How does it work? Who Knows. It's SK. Not real life. I admire the fact that you want to bring some realism to the game, but I think that this is a bit much.

Listen, I have a Combuster, Acheron, a DA, and a Gran Faust. I'm also going to get a Glacius in a couple of hours because I just need 2k more to craft the darn thing. Even with these swords I still prefer guns in certain situations. For example, if there's a barrier-sort of thing, like a space even just a couple of blocks long, between you and your target with a Brandish-line charge, the charge can't do anything. The damage from a DA or GF's charges don't make up for the long amount of time needed to charge them up PLUS that if used against a wall the sword(s) will just blow up and not hit the target at all. What I'm trying to say is that SOMETIMES guns can do a better job at being ranged weapons than these lines. And by sometimes I mean over 70%. They don't have to charge to hit enemies far away, they deal a pure damage type, ect.

Also, as with almost every other line in the game, the Brandishes use almost the same charge/animation because they all come from the same thing. Giving them all this much variety would mean that, for the sake of BALANCE, we would have to make each of the lines in every single other line different as well. And I for one don't want my arsenal to be clogged with completely specialized weapons.

"Oh, I should bring my Levi in case I get mauled by Slags, that way I can spin charge them and get out. But I've gotta bring my CIV with me too! Because its Vertical Strike is capable of stopping the slags in their tracks! But I should also bring a gun... Hm... How about my ova driver with its reflective shots and my Storm Driver because it shoots out mini Hazes of electricity when it hits things! But now I don't have any room for a bomb!"

Too much variety chokes games, keep it simple.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 00:07

Skold-The-Drac

All for removal of easy button weapons...

I'm all for variety.

But, in the end, I see this turning into some iteration of 'zerg rush OP' argument....
(An argument in which [insert OP metagame/weapon concept here] is overpowered because the game designers saw it fit. Due in part to, but perhaps not wholly relying upon, the requirement of the user to master [insert a semi-difficult/difficult to perform trick of the mind/calculation (normally some manner of muscle-memory requirement)] in order to be able to use the [insert metagame/weapon again] as effectively as they do.)

There's also the fact that the devs would require some time to make each individual charge and yadda yadda.

Brandishes need a change, sealed lines are pretty neat in my book though.

@Orangeo
Dashing Nightblade? You mean similar to the River Master Musou attack? (see 1:07) Man I love that blade. And I would thoroughly enjoy witnessing that concept (Spiral'd up anyway) in something that's not requiring pay.

/end@orangeo

@Cyderiax
All the above examples you used did not involve wave-like explosions that carry the opponent into extraordinary 5-hit territory much unlike the brandish culprits. DA and GF have a somewhat legitimate charge in my eyes due to the fact that they can be cancelled easily, the bullet has some difficulty carrying the enemy, and other such issues that balance it to a degree... but those are also HEAVY class weapons.

Heavy class weaponry takes pride in the fact that despite their slow attack speed, they can perform a sweeping, high power attack that will likely eliminate the target(s) in less strokes than the competitor. This should especially count in the CHARGE ATTACK department in which they need time to ready, let alone execute, their attack. Brandishes (Combuster especially) break this mold, which makes people believe that the heavy swords are more a waste of time because the heavy swords have little else on their side apart from 'safety', which is argued against by the truth that the safest enemy is a dead one.

Granted, brandishes require some mastery of their mechanics, I will not deny this. It takes some time to be able to effectively take on certain enemy types, but the payoff is that this weapon styling can literally cover all your bases when in the clockworks. Need a bomb? Brandish. Sword? It's a sword already. Gun? Just make sure there are floor tiles (which are kinda required for you to explore here).

/end@Cyderiax

Tbh, if the brandishes functioned as per the mecha knight brandishes/edges (Darkfang Brandish anyone?) I'd be happier. It'd be neat to be wielding an effective weapon that the monsters do.

But then again we already have the almirian spears.... they just changed the damage. :P

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 00:55

Kimahsonite

Brandishes are very OP (I admittedly own an Acheron and it's way too freaking easy to use). And I'm all for variety and swords actually being close-range weapons.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 03:28

#10

Blitzsonic

-1 no, get out

If the sword is part of a line, then it needs to have the typical features of this sword line:
Brandish
Deals split normal/something damage
charge has explosions

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 05:38

#11

Orangeo

@Skold-The-DracNo, I was

@Skold-The-Drac

No, I was thinking more like Marths final smash or whatever it's called in SSBB, except you go through people. You jump straight ahead, unable to turn, reaching your destination almost instantaneously. Explosions appear at every point where you hit an enemy once you stop. Everyone behind you blows up power rangers style. Anyone you land on gets batted away.

Sorta like those samurai standoff scenes where two guys unsheathe their swords and dash straight past eachother with one leap, moving so fast they basically teleport, then one just falls over and dies or explodes or something.

Of course, this makes it different from other brandish lines, but you could make the nightblade it's own thing. It deals no status, different damage type, different model.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 20:08

#12

Cyderiax

@Skold the Drac

I wasn't talking about balance, I was saying that it is wrong in my eyes that you don't need a gun or bomb just because you have a brandish-line weapon, because AS I STATED... "You don't know how much times I brought out my Argent Peacemaker out while going up against Kats because they are almost impossible to deal with using swords in T3 without getting damage, even with the range attack of Sealed Sword Line weapons or even with what everybody keeps calling the "OP brandish line" weapons." And I think you missed something. I did talk about the Brandish-line weapons. I'll also include here that the charge attack doesn't help against them for me. While the damage is pretty high, I've barely ever found use for the charge attack of the Brandish line weapons against T3 Kats and Fiends.
Even with the broken damage of the charge attack of the Combuster, it doesn't help against kats without a gun for me against multiple Kats. Heck, with the AP alone, I can solo Kats in an Ash tail set but not with a Combuster. Also... FIENDS. I used brandish-line weapons, and it doesn't help at all against them. Especially Devilites. Something like the shivermist buster makes non-ice devilites sitting ducks on the otherhand.

Really, if you want balance, you can just weaken how much the explosions do for the brandish-line weapons. (And as you stated, it needs a floor for actual range, and to be honest there are lots of moments when there's no floor between you and the enemies, who will all turn out to be projectile spammers) If you still think it's too OP, then by all means change it up. EDIT: I checked the damage for a bunch of sword weapons. Combuster is indeed OP in terms of damage. Although I wasn't making the point in the above post about that. (Also Sudaruska and Triglav are underpowered)

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 21:19

#13

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Lol, well....

Okay, this isn't a troll suggestion, but I'm seeing the logic behind your arguments.

However, I personally wish that the range for some of these things were nerfed a tad, because that might make everything better in terms of being too gunlike. My original goal behind this was to add variety not only in loadouts but also between Brandishes. (Which are, at least barring statuses, all the same.) I suppose you could also have the same arguments for most weapons, but I was focusing on Brandishes for this suggestion.

Shall I graveyard? Gestures to the trash disposal button.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 21:20

#14

Skold-The-Drac

Our charge differences....

I'd get into metas on how to annihilate fiends & kats w/glacius or voltedge (which could be progressed to combuster) but honestly I'm sick of seeing them. Glad to know not everybody is all that dedicated to the idea.

Regards to floor tile issues, more oft than not, I walk with people who dodge/tank and know how to close the gap whilst doing so pretty quickly. No matter the challenge, floor tiles exist to nearly every enemy/turret available. (I bet shield tanking sucks in elite in multiple cases). Only time this isn't the case are RT boss, turret room in charred court/occasional wheel launchers, and vana fireball madness (where you could change that). This is in respect to enemies, not switches (for which pots and other media are still provided). That's my say on the situation.

I misread your post. For that I do apologize, I lead myself to infer that you thoroughly believed brandishes were balanced... When you're really just saying that it's extremely difficult to reach the point of exploitability that we die-hards can see extremely often. (2+ years in SK w/ relatively hardcore game background can blind a person to others status due to complacency and other carp like that)

I don't intend to jump down throats (okay occasionally I do), but I will not allow anyone to go unchallenged with the view that brandishes are balanced, because frankly, their skill/reward could quickly become comparable to autoguns in my eyes. Glacius could act as a starting point and combuster will just be a mastery point.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 22:58

#15

Batabii

-1

So...swords should have no range at all...

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Fix the imposter swords! (GF, DA, and Elemental/Shadow Brandishes)