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An alternative to raising Alchemy CE cost.

18 replies [Last post]
Thu, 05/19/2011 - 12:25
Majikos's picture
Majikos

As a business, Three Rings needs to make money to survive. The way Spiral Knights makes money is through players purchasing Crystal Energy. From the company's point of view, the more CE purchased the better. Thus it's in their interest to add as many ways as possible for players to spend that CE. However this needs to be balanced against the need to let players feel that they're getting good value for their money - if they feel they're being ripped off they'll stop spending actual real moneys on the game, and revenue will fall. So it's a balancing act between maximising revenue, and minimising outrage.

This need to maximise revenue is undoubtedly part of the reason for the recent rise in CE costs for crafting items. The other part of the reason is the stated issue of game balance, making sure that high-level items remain rare and special, something that's only achieved after considerable time and effort so that they feel like an achievement. However, I don't think that increasing the energy cost of Alchemy was the best way to do things.

200, 400 and 800 CE feel like a lot. It doesn't matter that 800 CE costs less real money than a moderately fancy Starbucks coffee, it feels expensive in the context of the game and what people are used to. It feels like a rip-off, a transparent attempt by the company to milk players for as much money as possible. It fosters resentment

You can get a lot of Clockworks playtime for 200 energy, let alone 800. That's a lot of fun - whacking monsters, collecting goodies and levelling up items. I don't mind paying the elevator fee, because I know that it opens the door to enjoyable gameplay. The payoff is almost immediate.

Meanwhile, handing over that big a lump of CE for one item feels like a big payment for little immediate payoff. Your ability to whack monsters (or avoid getting whacked by monsters) might be somewhat improved, but that's not really something that's immediately apparent.

Three Rings need to get the players to burn through as much CE as possible if their game is going to be financially viable. Fine, that's understood. But gouging their players for CE at every opportunity is not a good way to do it while maintaining community goodwill.

The suggestion:

Playing Spiral Knights is fun.

Paying money for stuff is unfun.

A dose of fun can encourage people to do stuff that they would otherwise consider to be unfun.

Rather than increasing the direct CE cost of crafting items, I would propose increasing the amount of Heat needed to level up items to meet crafting requirements (that is, getting 3* items to level 5, and 4* items to level 10). The more Heat required, the more Clockworks runs needed to accrue that Heat; the more Clockworks runs made, the more elevator fees that must be paid. It takes more time and effort to level up your items, which makes getting those top-star items more of an achievement.

Rather than taking 800 CE from the player in one lump, charge them 200 CE in a lump, and spread the remaining 600 CE across the elevator fees they need to pay to bring their item to level 10 in order to upgrade it. You could even tweak the Heat payout so that they'd need to make 1200 CE worth of Clockwork runs to hit level 10 - because the players are getting a nugget of delicious Spiral Knights gameplay with each 10 CE they spend they're less likely to resent that cost. Of course, endless repetitive grinding is somewhat unfun, so it'd need fine-tuning until it hits the sweet spot.

Yes, it's possible for players to use their Mist Energy to pay those elevator fees, but with only 100 ME per day it'll take them a lot longer to raise the Heat than if they were spending CE on it to play for longer each day. Maybe even implement a Heat multiplier for each floor, based on whether the player used ME or CE to pay the elevator fee - so those who buy and use CE will have the gratification of levelling a bit faster than those who just use their daily ME allowance. It's a reward for supporting the game financially.

Basically, there are various ways to add incentives to buy CE that don't spark player outrage. Making things painfully and obviously expensive is not really one of them.

I'd be interested to hear what the devs or other players think of this proposal.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:20
#1
Pinto
Legacy Username
I think you just proved that

I think you just proved that Three Rings hired the wrong guy.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:31
#2
Leviathan
Legacy Username
Hm. I'm of the opinion that

Hm.

I'm of the opinion that the increases should have happened, but should have been mainly in materials - not in heat or crowns. A small boost in energy might have been okay, but the release went overboard.

Here's why I think that:

-Removing materials from the game makes them rarer (more valuable), meaning that free players would have a greater ability to sell materials to buy things (like energy, but not limited to it).

-Because more trade among players would be required, the Auction House fees would eat more money overall. This would make crowns rarer, and thus more valuable, acting to draw down the price of energy. The only reason that raising energy costs for crafting hasn't driven up energy values notably is the contrary forces of the AH: A change in liquidity preference that the auction house has already brought in, and the sink in crowns coming from fees.

-With the price of energy slightly lower, more energy would needed by cash players to buy the many, many things now available on the auction house. This wouldn't be such a terrible hardship, because: Look, there's way more stuff to buy. Thus, most likely, more sales as well.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 22:54
#3
Elegies
Legacy Username
Rather than increasing the

Rather than increasing the direct CE cost of crafting items, I would propose increasing the amount of Heat needed to level up items to meet crafting requirements (that is, getting 3* items to level 5, and 4* items to level 10). The more Heat required, the more Clockworks runs needed to accrue that Heat; the more Clockworks runs made, the more elevator fees that must be paid. It takes more time and effort to level up your items, which makes getting those top-star items more of an achievement.

It's so simple, and beautiful, in its execution. Why didn't this happen, instead?

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 00:21
#4
Majikos's picture
Majikos
@ Leviathan

Actually, increasing material costs as well as raising the Heat requirements would make a lot of sense - if players are having to make more Clockworks runs for Heat they'll also end up collecting more materials at the same time.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 10:16
#5
Aggron
Legacy Username
Beautiful, See thats what id

Beautiful, See thats what id like to call a win win situation. Players would have to spend a little more to level items and now that 4&5 stuff and OOO see's people willing to spend more on CE -le sigh-

And thats not the only thing either i mean they could create virtual goods that required people to spend CE on I.E. a private house for your character throw in accessories too that match armor themes. Imagine a Skelly theme bed or other furnature or even jelly themes... I mean the applications for virtual goods are nearly limitless other then crafting and play they REALLY thought inside the box on this installment and its the player that takes the hardest hit on it. I know the house idea has to have been thought of before, but why stop at housing? Virtual pet that follows your character around it doesnt have to have a purpose other then looking cute or cool. Crafting is way to essential to the game to just jack up the prices on willy nilly.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 10:18
#6
Psychephage
This seems like a good idea

This seems like a good idea to me too. Right now, I find myself in a situation where all my items are leveled up, but I still need to collect enough crowns to buy CE for the crafting fees. If items took 2-3 times as much heat to level, and a little bit less CE to craft, I think things would be a bit more balanced, and hopefully it would still encourage people to buy more CE with $.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 12:33
#7
Majikos's picture
Majikos
@ Aggron

I've no doubt that something along those lines will be added in time, because there's a player demand for customisation options like that - ways for the players to express their individuality, and stuff. In the short term, though, the downside to creating a premium marketplace of goods bought with CE is that it requires the creation of additional in-game assets, which in turn require extra dev-hours to be designed, animated and coded. Three Rings' revenue might go up, but their costs in terms of the work they need to do also go up.

Receiving Heat for defeating monsters is already part of the game, so changing the Heat requirements for items to level up is a pretty small tweak. No extra art or sound assets needed, and since it's not something that players have an easy way of tracking (as opposed to the listed CE price of things in the Alchemy terminal, for instance) you can tweak and fiddle with it as much as you like without provoking enormous community outrage.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 12:49
#8
Azurenightmare
I'd prefer an increased

I'd prefer an increased number of mats to increase in heat personally. That way if someone wanted to bypass the grinding part, he could buy Ce, sell it for crowns, buy the mats in the AH, and craft the item after a few runs for the heat. The problem with upgrading only taking more heat and not more anything else, is that the value of mats would probably plummet.

I dislike the idea of weapons being restricted to those who play a lot, basically. And that's the only way to get heat. Getting mats still would cost energy, but those are actually tradable, and make for a healthier game imo.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 17:49
#9
Algol-Sixty's picture
Algol-Sixty
I think mats should be the

I think mats should be the primary way of raising cost of high-end items too. The problem with both crowns and heat is that it makes no difference if they are gathered in T1 or T3.

Now, I also think that the heat required for higher end items should also be increased by a fair amount, and lower end item by a bit. There seems to be a lot of time spent not using heat, and with heat being transfered on revives and such, heat gathering appears to be a primary design goal. I think it should be very hard to level up 2* and 3* items in T1, and 4*/5* items in T2.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 23:28
#10
Aggron
Legacy Username
@majic13

No doubt the man hours will cost money to create but as long as there is a strong costumer base that continues to shell out cash for CE its not impossible. Lets say the Premium CE Goods shop is a bit of a stretch and it is a in the works idea. There is a vendor in town that sells extra slots so a player can carry an extra weapon or trinket. Why not give this vendor more items? Something that boosts the amount of Heat absorbed, people would by that or perhaps a trinket that funnels heat into one weapon then distribute it among them all? I think people would pay for that as well. Im all for the idea of cheap easy labor to tweek the heat. Obviously these items could only be used for a limited amount of time. Perhaps the time on a said item lasts for only an hour and the hour clock only starts ticking when equipped but as soon as you unequipped it the time halts until used again. that way a player has to buy a trinket slot AND the heat manipulator item. How about creating a blacksmith? this guy could add UV's to items for a nominal fee depending on what the item was and the UV wanted. These are all items that require almost no development interns of animation or design but yea sure some coding to manipulate the heat/customization. Mix the heat manipulator with your adjusted heat idea and BAM everyone wins.

The whole luck of the draw on creation can still be used but its seriously a bummer not getting what you need especially when T3 runs can be punishing without the right set of armor

Sat, 05/21/2011 - 10:00
#11
Pinto
Legacy Username
You know, most of my problems

You know, most of my problems with that update are because it makes crafting undesirable and crowns worthless. The latter has strangely not come to pass, I guess the outrageous auction house fees are doing more than I thought to combat inflation, so if you just do this one thing (set the 3* and 4* heat requirements to be something similar to current 5*) you're forgiven (bonus points if you set the crafting energy cost for 4* to 100 at the same time making tier 3 access technically if tediously possible without sinking CE). Do that and I will start using CE again rather than living off my mist tank.

You probably know these figures, but if grinded purely on mist and crafted with as much mist as possible over at least four days (would actually be more because of the grinding requirement), a single 4* item currently costs 400 CE (anyone who wants to try to total this as if crowns and CE were actually interchangeable please stop before showing your ignorance) and a single 5* costs 1300 CE, or $1.00-$1.60 and $3.25-$5.20 depending on CE purchase size and VAT (and much more if crafted by a more typical player). Maybe the unbinding shop charging a further $5 to unbind each 5* item will make more money for you. Maybe. Or maybe you'll kill the goose.

Also an option if you don't like increasing the heat requirements (which always felt small to me until 5*): increase the crown cost greatly, changing crafting from a crown fountain (scrap value > crafting cost) into a crown sink. The effect is the same, people have to play the game more and that's the excuse you gave for the changes in the first place, making high level weapons more exclusive.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 18:29
#12
Soarel's picture
Soarel
raise elevator prices

Raise the elevator prices (maybe 15 ce in tier 2, 20 in tier 3)

Then lower the alchemy prices.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 18:35
#13
Juances's picture
Juances
~

Thats worse in the long run. And may hurt the economy.

But was it neccesary to necro this thread?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 19:52
#14
Aemicus's picture
Aemicus
WHY! WHY DON'T PEOPLE CHECK

WHY! WHY DON'T PEOPLE CHECK THE TIME STAMP?

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 07:16
#15
Myg-Mog's picture
Myg-Mog
Why You Ask?

Because some people are incredibly lazy.

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 10:00
#16
Kentard's picture
Kentard
Who keeps necro-ing these threads?!

Really now.

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 11:46
#17
Aemicus's picture
Aemicus
It's Soarel, over and over.

It's Soarel, over and over.

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 16:13
#18
Jemographic's picture
Jemographic
instead of that........

Rather than raise the price of energy for levels (15 for t2 20 for t3) shorten the levels a bit, not much , but a bit this will really add up and make people want to buy energy so they can get more crowns$$$$ then lower the alchemy prices.......

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