Making some Seerus money through O:CH farming
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 03:30
Important edit:
I've set up a data collection sheet that shows averages and all. You will find it here. It should be rather self explanatory. Kudos to Zeddy for helping me with the formula for calculating stuff per minute 'cause I was too tired for doing maths last night.
If you'd like to submit data, please post it here, mail me in game (IGN: Krakob), contact me on Steam or whatever. The data I'll want is run date, runner(s), run time, raw crowns, special items, and notes if you have any. If I don't really know you, I'd prefer if you were to provide as much screenshot proof as possible.
Please note that I want proper times. If your party took several minutes to speak about economical issues in Italy or someone spent 5 min AFK, I'll pass on your submission. Same goes for normal runs that include lots of unneeded combat.
You might note that I have some bad data at the moment but I'll get rid of it as soon as I get proper data.
For timing, start it when the 0% appears on the loading screen for the first stage and stop it when the screen flashes white upon defeating the boss. I recommend that you either grab something here from the timing section or use http://www.online-stopwatch.com/
----------------
I figured this out now that O:CH is free but it has been possible since the Sprite patch. If you're like me, chances are you have an eternal supply of Eternal Orbs of Alchemy. Nothing to use them on because the choke point of crafting is the Elite Orbs and Shining Fire Crystals. But there is one 5* craft that doesn't involve any 4* item and that's the Perfect Mask of Seerus. The mask can be vendored for 30k CR, much like a piece of Ancient Plate gear.
First, let's look at pure payout in crowns. For simplicity's sake and since I haven't visited Seerus since before the Sprites, let's go with the old CR data, which is the same as for the difficulty Advanced.
Average O:CH advanced payout is I think 4.5k CR and average KoA payout is about 7.7k CR.
Vana gives 3 Almirian Seals per run, which are worth 1k CR each. Seerus gives a fragment of his mask each run, which is worth 10k if we only count the fragments in the craft. It is very notable that the craft itself costs 5k to perform, though. We also need to take two Trojan Horseshoes into account. As Sprites can feed on these and they are rather easy to get, a quick AH search leads me to believe that they are worth about 500 CR each. We can therefore conclude that a Perfect Mask of Seerus grants us a profit of 24k CR. There are other materials needed but none are 4* or higher and aren't quite worth taking into account.
24k/3=8k. Not bad for a single fragment.
To sum things up:
Average Advanced O:CH payout: 4.5k CR
Average Advanced KoA payout: 7.7k CR
Perfect Seerus Mask Fragment value: 8k CR
Almirian Seal value: 1k CR
4.5k+8k=12.5k
7.7k+3*1k=11.7k
Seerus is in the lead. Does this mean FSC farming has finally been obsoleted?!
The answer is no. Since you need Trojan Horseshoes, I reckon it'd be the best to do enough FSC to get two Trojan Horeshoes as well as to make some Eternal Orbs for every three O:CH runs you do. I don't have very exact payout data either and it should vary between difficulties. You can gain more money through speedrunning FSC on normal than doing it properly on Elite, putting more emphasis on the tokens Vana gives rather than the pure CR payout. I'm thinking the same should apply for O:CH but I've never done a speedrun of it.
If I forgot anything or if my data is incorrect, please do inform me.
Edit: the first thing I realise is that O:CH still costs some. You do get the most powerful bomb in the game and one of the coolest swords as well as the ability to craft the Perfect Mask of Seerus, though. It's roughly 1050 energy per item. I'd say it's worth it if you've got actual interest in the items available. Chaos sadly makes PMoS not so useful but it still has its uses, like SL IMF for example.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 04:38
#2
OCH is more difficult than
OCH is more difficult than FSC for me, and i don't get why you get less crowns during all runs compared with Firestorm Citadel...
FSC is very easy after practise about 5 times, (Trojans can still be a problem if you are in a bad party and Slag Walkers can be a pain in the a** with lag), in the other hand you have Gremlin Thwackers, Gremlin/Blazing Mortafires and Ghostame Stalkers that they can be a good challenge and more difficult in T3 in OCH.
I have always been in favor to increase the crown ratio a bit more in OCH... So... OOO please...
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 04:50
#3
@Hexzyle
While killing all the enemies, I think that's about right. I don't know about not doing so, though. Guess I'll set up some timing software and take time on stuff in the future.
What I do know is the following:
FSC can be completed in less than 25 minutes on Normal.
FSC is usually completed in 50-70 minutes something when clearing everything on Advanced/Elite.
I'd like to remember that O:CH takes as much time as FSC when killing all the things.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:06
#4
@Krakob
Not sure if there are many willing to throw away eternal orbs for an extra 800cr per run. Players that want to keep their orbs are going to keep farming FSC and I find that most of them tend to be in dire need.
Btw, I once timed a elite FSC run I did with a friend and we took around 35 mins. Though, we are both rather experienced... I suppose an average party might take a bit longer especially when you have to drag newbies through it.
It really helps to understand how to set up powerful AOE damage because fighting everything in packs of 2-3 could cause a run to take a lot longer.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:12
#5
@Writhes
Of course, this isn't really useful for everyone. I'd say it's very worth it if you have 50 Eternal Orbs to spare, though. My roflstomp strategy for FSC is to drop EVs in crowds and tear them apart with Combuster. It's nothing short of effective. I dare say it's probably one of the most effective strategies I know.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:20
#6
a nice idea
The core idea of the thread --- profit by vendoring Perfect Masks of Seerus --- is quite nice. And I've never seen it anywhere before. Thanks for pointing it out.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:21
#7
Wow, that's exactly what I do
Wow, that's exactly what I do except I use voltedge since the slags are immune to fire. Unfortunately, not everyone wants to farm lockdown for Voltedge and I can understand that. Anyway, yeah that is basically the most powerful aoe combo.
You can also add in a Drakon Frenzied Firestorm.
wiki quote
"For every monster caught in the blaze, you and your party have a chance of receiving an attack power and speed bonus."
Hitting a large pack of slags with a Frenzied Firestorm is going to proc some epic attack power for that Voltedge charge.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:24
#8
.
A) Elite difficulty makes these numbers not match up.
B) OCH takes longer than FSC.
C) FSC drops much more heat crystals, which is one of the biggest bottlenecks to crafting new gear.
D) If orb downgrades ever come out, you'll be sorry you threw away your eternals.
In short, no. You CAN farm OCH and feel like you haven't wasted your time, but it isn't really the best option. As you say, you're late to the party on this discovery - the rest of the paying community has already checked this strategy out and while it is an alternative if you're burnt out on FSC, it isn't a replacement.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 06:11
#9
I heard about this idea the
I heard about this idea the other day! Kudos to OP for kindly sharing on forums. Although, bro, you accounted for trojan horseshoe prices in OCH profit, but not in FSC profit. If it's a significant factor...haha
As for Khamsin's points...
A) Probably correct. Elite difficulty increases crown payout by making larger value crowns drop at each possible CR location I'd assume. So it's effectively a multiplier, not an addition. Since FSC had more to begin with...it gains more from Elite. At a guess, anyway.
B) I dunno about this. I'd agree the average player will take longer on OCH. I don't know if I'd wholeheartedly agree until I see some hard data and effective, planned and practiced, strategies applied. FSC used to take us hella long, till we refined our strategies like crazy :3
C) Probably true. I'd still like some data. Either way it's irrelevant to the topic, which is purely about crowns. A valid point on the whole though.
D) Don't see that happening, and in the meantime I'll enjoy my crowns :D
I don't think anyone's put enough effort in to conclusively prove FSC has better CR/HR ratio. Sadly, it probably does, but until OCH running is as streamlined as FSC running....
Besides, I think running the same thing twice in one day should be avoided. Even though I do it all the time. XD
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 06:49
#10
I actually think this is a pretty viable idea. No, it won't replace FSC, but it's a decent alternative that now has a relatively equal payout while offering a change of scene and something to use those extra 5* orbs I have around collecting dust for. I'd rather do three runs for 30k over ten runs for 30k anyway. The difficulty increase is debatable, FSC is only easy because you people have grinded it to the ground.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 07:14
#11
@Aiden
"B) I dunno about this. I'd agree the average player will take longer on OCH. I don't know if I'd wholeheartedly agree until I see some hard data and effective, planned and practiced, strategies applied. FSC used to take us hella long, till we refined our strategies like crazy :3"
The fact that the strategies AREN'T there IS relevant. You have to put effort in to improve efficiency.
And the strategies will never develop as much as FSC because there's a limiting factor of how many runs you can do before you exhaust all your orbs.
Again, this is not a new thing, this has been discussed before amongst groups of players when the orb system was implemented and FSC is still generally the go-to even among players with OCH.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 07:28
#12
I may have missed it, but I
I may have missed it, but I thought the Seerus masks bound upon crafting, so the cost of unbinding it would need to be factored in the total costs to see if it's still worth it for the price you can get for the helmet. Also, I guess with OCH on sale and able to be bought with energy, fewer people will be getting the masks from other people+more people will be making masks=price for a mask going down.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 07:30
#13
.
It doesn't cost money to unbind when you sell to the vendor.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 08:07
#14
I've decided I'll set up some spreadsheets to collect data on O:CH and FSC. It'll definitely help me do some more concrete maths. Making it public, of course.
@Bopp
Happy to share my thoughts :3
@Writhes
Still working on my Drakon (got Seraphynx first). Thought you didn't get the attack buff if the enemies didn't catch fire. Thanks for the info! I have both Voltedge and Combuster but I find Combuster to roflstomp harder 'cause the knockback won't be cancelled and you'll land more hits.
@Khamsin
A) I know. I said I didn't have much data, no? Elite isn't optimal for grinding CR regardless as you'll profit more from speedrunning FSC on normal to get tokens fast.
B) You got any data on that claim? I'd like to see some concrete data on time spent on both, really.
C) 5* Fire, yes. If this strategy is viable to you, you shouldn't have to worry about it because chances are that you've got over a thousand 5* crystals. Downgrading them is a terrible idea as the last levels of 4* items cost around 70 fires, which will cost 7k CR to make.
D) Maybe so. I don't have much left to craft, though. There'll always be something but I don't think I'll be throwing away orbs fast enough to get down to a point where I'd need to grind them to keep up with my heating if downgrading is released. As it looks now, I have 59 Eternal Orbs. Don't think I'll need them all no matter what. Besides, don't you think orb downgrading would have been released with the fire downgrading?
I have never seen it discussed before. Dunno what you mean with "paying" community, exactly. Is there a forum where everybody pays for their energy and plays golf and tests wines all day? I agree that it's not entirely a replacement as FSC has some interesting things in it still that O:CH does not but this should pay better in the end. I'd say the complement each other quite well.
@Aiden
I didn't take materials into account when you're not using them because if you don't use them for crafting, you're most likely to use them on your sprite.
@Leekcoco
Exactly! People say FSC is easy as 1+1 but that's only because people make sets specifically for grinding it and then grind it like there's no tomorrow. Of course people get better at FSC than O:CH since few run O:CH more than a few times.
@Aiden, Khamsin
You shouldn't have to do many runs to optimise and strategise if you just pay attention to what you see and what you can or have to do. I have Orbs for roughly 20 crafts. That's 60 runs in total. I think I'll be able to optimise in less than that and I'll happily share my strategies if I do.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 10:24
#15
Don't forget there's also a chance you get a UV during the Seerus crafts. That could lead to unexpected rewards, as well. You don't get UVs vendoring Almirians.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 10:53
#16
.
" I don't have much left to craft, though."
Really? You have almost all 5* gear sets, almost all 5* weapons? I'm not talking about having most of your bases covered like one nice shadow shield, one nice elemental shield... everything.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 11:19
#17
@Zeddy
That's a good point, but it's anything but reliable. You'd need a UV good enough to be worth more than the 4000 E required to unbind it and the 30k you'd get from the vendor to profit anything from a UV.
@Khamsin
No. I'm referring to that I've got all but three unique 5* swords, 10 and soon 11 5* guns, 7 5* bombs, almost all armours and helmets viable to swordspeople and more. At some point, I'm going to stop and focus on other things.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 11:19
#18
I'll help on the data
I can time both missions on elite, though there will be a hole in my data. I don't have a means to use a party in OCH.
FSC is much more popular and more available, which means a party is almost always available.
I know a solo OCH will give margin of error, a significant amount. I will try to provide data in the next day.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 16:33
#19
Since you're doing it mainly for the material shouldn't you be speedrunning OCH on normal? If you know how to speedrun well enough then you can do it in (edit) ~15-25 minutes. FSC takes longer (or at least the same time) to speedrun.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 13:41
#20
@Grimranger
Precisely! I've clocked O:CH at about 24 minutes and FSC at about 23 minutes. No real time difference there, especially considering that all the O:CH runs I've done have been moderately unoptimised.
CR is about 1.9k per run, with 25k per three runs in addition. It's pretty dang good.
O:CH takes longer than FSC, they said. Nope :>
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 15:35
#21
Nice idea, but it's only useful for when you got literally nothing to do and nothing to craft.;)
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 20:35
#22
Difficult to optimize mortas
If you farm taking on every enemy, Mortafires become a major timesink. Unless you have a reliable fire, shock, or occasionally poison inflicting weapon in your arsenal (have yet to test an AOA but a VV will occasionally make 'em drop their shield) they're gonna soak up some time from you due to their constantly having a frontal shield if you are solo, teams make em a little more manageable but no guarantees.
I know that firepots make this a little faster as their splash infliction makes the mortafire a fireball with little failure. But still, decent timesink, they do drop some cr and if you disregard them I could account for an average of roughly 150-200 cr off the overall run... but then again I had a rather mediocre success rate regarding using "secret rooms" on the run, due in part to poor memorization/ lack of party enthusiasm for my carp.
Anyway, ignoring mortafires, you could farm OCH in roughly 20 minutes, if you keep moving and have a quick weapon. (Bombers unfortunately would likely only want to bring either a mist or a DR, if speedrunning, as these two things are the only extremely optimal bombs for speedrunning OCH) Shadowtech alchemers/ maybe biohazards with a synced team would make things fastest. Acheron also aids the Seerus boss battles a little more than Gran Faust, but if your team has 4 DR's and WRH's then the boss battle becomes a joke really.
What you want for your three major weapons includes: WRH, DR, and Shadowtech Alchemer, the reason I'm saying an alchemer in place of brandish is for the charge, and the fact that your brandish can't hit while you're running in the opposite direction of the enemy. With the alchemer, maneuverability can be maintained at all times and is somewhat necessary for certain rooms.
WRH makes the few constructs you encounter a cakewalk where DR won't be as effective. Where I found most of my time potentially being sucked up is during the boss battle, teams make this easier but if you're solo you kinda want to just lay DR's everywhere until the middle pod's open and then cram that pod full of pain with your hammer. I stick to that middle pod as best I can when solo and just use DR until the other enemies are dead.
As for seerus, well, if you're lucky/have a larger party than 1, you can lay enough DR's that he does your job for you, or you can attempt to use the internal ricochet of your alchemers to do the job. The alchemer's a somewhat safer option to go with if your latency isn't carp, as Seerus is pretty easy to just chargespam when you have his dashing motions memorized. DR's for when he's got all his cronies on the field and you just don't feel like trying to aim for him.
The only time I'd recommend an autogun/elemental alchemer is for the rocket puppy room, VP and Storm Driver can make these a little easier, maybe a bit faster. Secret rooms offer just enough bang for their time consumption if you go for them, but ignoring them wouldn't take too much profit as that extra time can be spent fleecing the runs. (If you have a team of more than 1 they provide enough, but at solo you just about break even) Don't forget that any boxes you find could contain that wonderful Darkfang Shield and if you got one of those and were willing to sell it, well you wouldn't much have to care about cr anymore. Or you could, you know, quit the game as you have essentially won SK in my book if you manage to obtain a DF.
Sat, 09/28/2013 - 00:51
#23
@Skold
blitz > mortafire and Seerus
http://youtu.be/yU9PfoTWZkY?t=1m1s
fire ticks from aoa does help dropping their shield.
Sat, 09/28/2013 - 01:57
#24
Got a data collection sheet up. Editing main post.
Sat, 09/28/2013 - 15:45
#25
can't i hate blitz in peace?
Owait :p
I don't actively own blitz, just it's 4* fiery cousin. So ty for info. The lack of Nerf pellets kills me sometimes.
Sun, 09/29/2013 - 00:30
#26
Shivermist is the best haze bomb for OCH, IMO. It uncloaks the Stalkers and makes the Mortafires drop their shields, while holding them all in place for an Acheron/Blitz charge. VT is pretty good too.
Mon, 09/30/2013 - 02:53
#27
@Leekcoco
You don't need to kill a single Ghostmane. Some Mortafires, though.
Edit: I'm gonna bump this or make a new topic by the time I have data on five runs of each kind. Any help, anyone? Σ:3
Even running OCH back when mist still existed and with an elevator pass, you could make some profit. After running tier 1 three times on the same day, crafting the Fractured Seerus Mask and then unbinding it, (100 mist, 10CE) you could sell it for something around the 20k mark. (due to it's 5-star-esque status resist, inherit abilities, accessibility, and badass appearance) You get a couple thousand crowns for the three runs, so any player could easily get some decent cash no matter their equipment or skill. Since the main focus was the material at the end, you could speed run the most of it, ignoring the stupid Mortifires.
About your math though, you're assuming that completing an OCH run takes the same amount of time as a FSC run, while killing all the enemies.