Spiral Knights - Message to the level designers regarding CSK and Compounds

Message to the level designers regarding CSK and Compounds

18 replies [Last post]

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 12:10

Mohandar

It is sad that the designers put so much work into Candlestick Keep and Compound levels, yet they are universally the most hated levels among the playerbase (pretty sure the majority of players do NOT enjoy them as much as other levels). I have two points I'd like to highlight, why I think these levels are so reviled, and I hope the level designers take a gander here so they can keep it in mind as they design future levels.

1. Control. Players like being in control of the situation, and Grimalkins do the exact opposite: you can't kill them, they are always there, and the only methods of keeping them in check are candles, which are not placed by players. Contrast this to graveyards, which ARE fairly enjoyable: Phantoms do respawn, but you can take them out anywhere, any time for a brief respite. This puts the player in CONTROL of the situation. In future levels, I would advise against mechanics that cause the player to lose control. Grimalkins are also made worse by the sheer amount of damage they do. One thing that would make it more palatable is to allow shielding, giving players more control.
2. Harassment. Somewhat related to control, but players also don't like being harrassed. I actually do enjoy fighting the mini-monsters when they spawn en masse as a part of a scripted battle. However, put them on a respawner with no rewards, and now they are just harassment. This is also related to control, as there is no way to shut down the respawner. Part of the issue is, some of the mini-monsters use a continuous type attack like Wisps and Shankles, which makes them much more annoying to fight. Mini-jellies are less annoying, because they have long attack intervals, and slow, discrete attacks. Sometimes respawners are fun, but I'd like the designers to consider the boundary between challenge and harassment.

I also encourage others to think about first the superficial reason why they hate a level, and then dig deeper and consider what it is about that aspect that they actually hate (and share here).

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 12:32

Khamsin

@OP

That's why I specifically LIKE those stages. Players shouldn't be able to easily contain enemy encounters (part of the reason why I think Vanaduke is a fail boss).

People hate compounds because of the AE swarms of bunnies, not because of respawning bunnies. From what I've seen, the reception to Candlestick has been fairly positive among non-scrubby players.

I assume you haven't played Shadow Lairs yet, because they're FULL of situations where you aren't in control. Highly positive reception to Shadow Lairs in terms of gameplay.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 12:34

Isekuube

Derp. :3

I don't really mind either of the levels mentioned in the in the OP.

Except for Compounds, I love CSK, but dem compounds...

Honestly they aren't THAT bad. But, it's just extremely annoying and gang-bang-ey.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 13:00

Mystrian

Combat will get easier in the long run.

I don't hate any level. Maybe replay levels so you get used to the difficulty curve (yes this game has that). I mean we all better ourselves from learning right?

EDIT: you can dash through grimalkins

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 12:58

Niichi

I think the problem I have with CSK is that the core mechanic often involves "hide in this area until the big bad goes away", given the grimalkins habit of floating around passageways. Contrast to SLs, since Khamsin brought it up. No part of those involve hiding and doing nothing. You might fight overwhelming odds at times, but you're always doing something. It's not even as if an invincible enemy is the problem. SL Snarby proved you could do that effectively. You just have to make it not boring and that is what CSK's concept feels like to me.

That said, I don't think I hate CSK anymore. It's still far from my liked levels of course. Also, at least they're not that common outside of shadow themed stratums so I don't run into them that often.

In terms of compounds, I tend to think some of the mini mobs are annoying. Scarabs probably take the prize as they often fly in from offscreen. The fiend ones have an annoying habit of sweeping around. Slimes seem a bit awkward to fight with a sword. I don't mind the bunnies though. There's also how little they seem to drop but still take some time to deal with (even though they die faster) and yeah, the numerous respawners in narrow passageways don't help. It kinda feels like instead of facing genuine challenge these just instead aim to mob the players with superior numbers and keep throwing them at the player.

I think my biggest problem with these levels is just how frequently they appear. It feels like in any given tier you've got these on anything like 4-5 depths, and sometimes either multiples on a depth or they're the only thing there. That manages to put me off them even more.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 13:24

Writhes

Grimalkins aren't that bad. You can juke them into biting early and steer them in the directions you want them to go. They tend to be the worst in skinny or bottlenecked areas of the map without candles which seem like a cheap way to damage players.

There are a few things I have noticed about compound42. Obviously, the biggest issue is that there are two status types and two damage types to control. The one armor set that can actually defend against all of these don't have any damage mods for grimlins or slimes.

After slimes lay down massive amounts of goo on the floor it can be very difficult to see their thorn projectiles. I often get hit by thorns without even seeing them. Slime goo also ticks shield health so shields often take more damage than normal even when using them for other reasons.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 13:27

Khamsin

@Niichi

"I think the problem I have with CSK is that the core mechanic often involves "hide in this area until the big bad goes away""

Only if you play it that way. I almost never hide in the light like that and do perfectly fine on elite.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 13:54

Fangel

Think outside the box

Compounds are hilariously easy with a good bomb. I dislike them because they don't have a very good loot output.

As for candlestick keeps, those pull off the "scary" feel that graveyards just don't have. Even then, the grimalkin can be avoided by moving, dashing through it, shield bashing through it, hammer dashing through it, shield bumping it away, and maybe a few other ways I haven't really tried. Candlestick keeps have a good payout too. I like them.

As for the original ideas listed, the grimalkins can be controlled, just not by smacking it with your sword. The minis do harass players, but a good bomb is a hard counter to that harassment.

I understand the problems if you aren't a hybrid or don't travel in groups for compounds. Candlestick is perfect the way it is.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 14:19

Necrim

My main problem with

My main problem with Compounds is that they have far to few chests compared to how annoying they are to do.

Candlestick keeps on the other hand I have nothing against.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 14:57

Niichi

...you can dash through grimalkins unharmed? I never thought to even try that. I don't know how much that would affect my enjoyment but more options for not having to sit around in the candlelight sounds worthwhile to me. Otherwise it's been a lot of case of "we'll float in narrow passageways until we decide we'll move or you try to shield bump us away". Which of course gets a bit worse with more players.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:08

#10

Mohandar

I didn't say there weren't players who enjoyed CSK and Compounds, but if OOO did a pop up survey on exiting asking "Do you enjoy these levels?", on a scale of 1-5 I would bet good money that the average response would rate between 1-3.

I've come to tolerate CSKs and Compounds, but they (particularly CSK) are my least favorite levels to play. And yes, I have played every SL, OCH recently and any post-Beta level you can name. I know the vast majority of the tips and tricks, and I still find them less fun overall. Obviously there are people who like being not-in-control of the situation and what constitutes 'harassment' is subjective, but I am just stating what I find to be the problem with these levels. Thank you for sharing your opinions though; it is interesting to hear what other forumers have to think.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:08

#11

Khamsin

"average response would rate between 1-3."

The average response for most levels would probably be around that neighborhood too. Candlestick keeps are a lot more fun than Clockwork tunnels, that's for sure.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:37

#12

Culture

Hmm

I'm with Khamsin on this one, I like both types of levels because they give us a different challenge. Before learning the mechanics, these levels do seem overly hard. But with some practice, they are an enjoyable challenge.

What I don't like about these levels is that there is a 0% chance of a Danger Room. Back before these types of levels were mixed into the arcade, a full T3 run might include 4 or more Danger Rooms. Now, if I'm going through T3 without waiting for a level that can include danger rooms (if that is even an option) I'm lucky to get 1 or 2.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 15:39

#13

Narfle

+1 moh

I agree. I don't mind compound levels, but I assumed when the teaser pics were first released that the bits of machinery scattered about (the ones with the red levers) would somehow control the flow of minis, and was disappointed when they didn't do anything. Like areas of c42, LoA, OCH, etc. with respawners, I would rather have some control over the outflow of minis. It's not that they are difficult, it's just that their respawning doesn't particularly add anything to the levels other than, as Moh says, harassment without reward. Running around to find the right switch and temporarily halt the tide of minis would at least be some small reward for players, and then you would also have the fun challenge of another whole wave of accumulated minis to fight if you couldn't clear an area fast enough.
Similar problem with CSK: they are some of the very best levels in the game in terms of atmosphere, but I can't enjoy it because I have four grimalkins on a short respawn timer hounding me the entire time. It would be a lot more fun if there were stretches where the players would have to pick up and carry a candle--only one would spawn at a time (like water orbs, fire orbs, etc.), would go out and need to be re-lit if the player carrying the candle took a hit from a baddie. Without stationary candles to light it would be higher risk, but much higher reward for parties that could cooperate well, and would again give players a greater sense of control over how the level played out.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 18:35

#14

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@OP Both are wrong. Compounds have bad payout, and Candlestick has slightly lower payout than other levels and it is notably punishing if you lag. (A long time ago I had spikes of bad lag. Most levels were difficult, but in Candlestick I would die continuously just because Grimalkins punish going slow a lot more than other enemies.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 19:41

#15

Traevelliath

Similar to what was said before, CSK is like a forced stealth section in an action game, requiring a completely different, if not contradictory mindset.

Compounds I've never had a problem with TBH. I like hordes of enemies.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 20:01

#16

Cobaltstarfire

"There are a few things I have noticed about compound42. Obviously, the biggest issue is that there are two status types and two damage types to control. The one armor set that can actually defend against all of these don't have any damage mods for grimlins or slimes.
After slimes lay down massive amounts of goo on the floor it can be very difficult to see their thorn projectiles. I often get hit by thorns without even seeing them. Slime goo also ticks shield health so shields often take more damage than normal even when using them for other reasons."

You'll have an easier time with compound 42 if you just ignore the slime goo and walk over it, yes it'll probably poison you, but it's the fire, and getting bogged down by trying to shield through things that's going to kill you. (Compound 42 used to obliterate me, but now it's the easiest danger mission for me to finish. I've been wondering if they nerfed it sometime between the release and now because after 2 or 3 tries when I started playing again I got to where I can run through it on elite, although I still die at least 3 times before I reach the end...)

As far as normal compounds go...well I dunno. Compounds are fine...until the end, half the time I just finish the end as quickly as possible without bothering to try killing anything because if I try to fight all the stuff I just get frustrated (it's much easier with a group because stuff doesn't build up, but I often solo). I suppose that would make the end pretty annoying because of "harassment". Come to think of it compounds might be easier now since they've apparently lowered everything's HP in elite mode.

CSK's don't really bother me though, it's easy to control the grimalkins. You can run circles around them, shield bump them, you can trick them into biting early, and if you play on your toes they'll probably never get anywhere near you to begin with. Although if you're laggy even for a split second the level is going to punish you really hard. It really sucks to be playing fine and then suddenly everything jumps and a grimalkin has taken a bite out of you.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 22:01

#17

The-Worst-Knight

CSK is fine, but sometimes

CSK is fine, but sometimes grimalkins spawn in yourself and bit at the same moment
Compounds are hard levels, you need few types of resist and damage. And for that challenge you will get low payout. There are 2-5 boxes on the level(2-5 times more on others). Minies often appears only on the last arena. Jelly minies are annoying, cause they can move almost under you.

Sat, 10/05/2013 - 22:16

#18

Good-Spirit

I like them both! An awesome theme, a challenge that you have to adapt to, and something harder then the norm.
I wish they would make more levels with the forest like bright GREEN theme. Kinda reminds me of oldschool Zelda and gives a great atmosphere.

Two solutions for you that work for me just about 100%... or suggestions rather.

Candle stick - Switch shooting alchemers, all are weak vs elemental. Even without a damage or speed bonus it cuts through them pretty quick.
Compounds - Graviton Bomb + Triglav Charge... or a Nitronome! The Graviton is awesome at just holding the enemy in place while you unleash any charge. I just prefer the neutral charge of the triglav to cover all angles.

Really like the carrying candle idea Narfle, would encourage team play hardcore. Having to pick up and put down a candle if you're running solo would be a pain.

Also agree with Culture's Danger Room comment... More danger rooms please!

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Message to the level designers regarding CSK and Compounds