Spiral Knights - The mysterious 4 boss token runs.

The mysterious 4 boss token runs.

73 replies [Last post]

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:09

Skepticraven

I've been trying to figure out when/why sometimes during boss runs everyone gets 4 tokens instead of the normal 3.
Is it predictable? I think so... But what are its mechanics?

So far I've done a bit of research (ok, perhaps more than just a bit...)

*note: everything on elite, full clear, from mission lobby, solo
In order of when they were done:
40 roarmulus twin runs, all at 3 tokens each.
1 snarbolax run, 4 tokens
2 jelly king runs, 4 tokens each
1 roarmulus twin run, 3 tokens
1 vanaduke run, 3 tokens
15 roarmulus twin runs, 3 tokens each
1 snarbolax run, 3 tokens
1 jelly king run, 4 tokens
1 jelly king run, 3 tokens

*Break continual runs - Did some with friends
*End doing only full clears. Now either speedrun or full clear
3 vanaduke runs, 3 tokens each
1 roarmulus twin run, 3 tokens
1 snarbolax run, 3 tokens
1 jelly king run, 3 tokens
6 roarmulus twin runs, 3 tokens
1 roarmulus twin run, 4 tokens (skipped final elevator)
1 roarmulus twin run, 3 tokens
3 vanaduke runs, 3 tokens each
4 roarmulus twin runs, 3 tokens each

Next Data Set:
Timed Data
All times are in reference to: PST, or the server time.

My initial guess is that somewhere it stores a single boss that has a "you get 4 tokens" value. Every time you find the boss, it switches to a new boss.
From the 56 roar twin runs with all 3 tokens each, I doubt it has something to do with speed/luck.

Also, before anyone asks... yes I do have a ton of boss tokens at the moment. Why? I'm probably going to also do an analysis on forge box rates as well with all the 3* gear.

Discoveries:

Mission Lobby for Vanaduke is not an important elevator.

For the standard 3 tokens, you MUST take the 3 elevators leading up to the boss. You get one token per elevator.

The bonus 4th token is a party-wide phenomena. When it occurs, everyone in the party receives the bonus token.

There is little if any influence of the following: Damage taken, deaths, time to complete.

*Edit: I will update the list as I do more bosses.
*Edit2: Moved to wiki subforum, to better preserve the data rather than just going to page 100ish of general discussion.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:14

Xtweeterx

ZE- wait what?

I've wondered that myself. the token wiki page says the boss tokens' quantity is determined by how many depths you joined. In some KoA runs, sometimes I got 3, sometimes I got 4. I've asked and tried different theories, but couldn't figure it out still :s

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:20

Skepticraven

Wiki

Yes, the elusive 4 is not covered in the wiki. 3 is the standard if you start the mission from the mission lobby (rule of thumb, count the elevators you take with the exception of KoA).
4th is a bonus from... something. The most prominent one that I've heard is it depends on the speed. Within those 40 initial IMF runs, I've varied the speed from 15 minutes to 40+ minutes (being afk doing other things). Most are at the 15.

I guess I should post a reason for making this thread: What are all the theories? Is there something I'm missing?

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:27

Xtweeterx

@Skepticraven

My theories ranged from how quickly you defeat the boss, how quickly you do the levels before, or both, to how much damage you take or health you were able to save in the boss room, or in the levels before, or both (or everything put together).

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:34

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

It does not seem to be the time in which you defeat the boss as we have beat JK in around 10 seconds and still only 3 tokens (4 DR, 3 quills, and 1 frenzied). It might be the time it takes to get to the boss or the damage taken getting there, both are reasonable assumptions.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:40

Xtweeterx

@Wolfe-Knight

Well that room in D25 (Charred Court) in FSC to the left wing top-left always seems to nearly slaughter me for whatever reason (2 trojans, 3 explosive jellies, and I think 3 or 6 slags. I don't remember)

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:06

Sweet-Hope

i dont think its the time you take to defeat the boss or the time that takes to get to the boss or the damage you get there.

i know because one of those boring days that idk what to do, i helped newbies with their missions one of them was the roarmulus twins mission and oh boy WAS the worst group, lot of time spent because lots of AFK waiting time from the party leader who asked for help, people being funny or messing around with swichtes oh dear. and the boss WAS the worst thing they never agree who will hit the swicht so like 20 mins spent on just the first stage. after i spent more than 1 hour in the mission i finally decided to kill the whole team with the swichtes so i can kill the boss myself with the team down. and after 1 hour 27 mins of the whole mission i was really amazed that i got 4 tokens after all the time spent.

so i honestly doubt the "4 tokens thing" its related to health of player, time to defeat the boss or the map.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 16:59

Xtweeterx

@Sweet-Hope

So you're saying... the longer you stay in the fight, you might get 4?

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:11

Poopsie

after 1807127401094810471041470174 boss runs...

as far as I can tell, it's completely random. A bit suspicious on getting more 4 token chance when somebody leaving all of sudden, but still I can't really tell the pattern. However, you can get at most... when you join at depth..
4 tokens: Lobby, Depth 4 Arcade Snarbolax, Depth 14 Arcade Royal Jelly/Roar, Depth 24 Vana
3 tokens: depth 25 Vana
2 tokens: first depth of Snarb, Jelly, Roar and Depth 26 Vana
1 token: second depth of Snarb, Jelly, Roar and Depth 27 Vana

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 19:29

Sweet-Hope

What i mean there nothing that "assure" you will get 4 tokens, for me is always random, i can do a quick run killing the booss quickly and i still get 3, i can get into Pick up groups or random people just to pass the time and i can get 4 or 3 tokens. there groups that take longer and get 3 tokens, there groups that take longer and get 4 tokens, as some groups can take the boss pretty quick and get 4 tokens or some groups can take the boss pretty quick and get 3 tokens.

so honestly for me that looks random.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:22

#10

Theirillusion

Nope, it's not speed.

I've had a theory for a long time, but testing it would require some sacrifice. I'll post if I can prove it.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:33

#11

Bopp

many threads; seems random

There have been many threads on this topic. I have never seen one that contains convincing evidence of non-random rewards. Here are two examples from my own experience:

* I do RJP without taking any damage at all. I get 3 tokens. So there doesn't seem to be a reliable reward for not taking damage.

* I do GWW using only Callahan and Nova Driver. Every level, including the boss level, takes a long time. In the boss fight, I take a fair amount of damage. I get 4 tokens. So there doesn't seem to be a reliable reward for speed or not taking damage.

So I agree with posters such as Sweet-Hope that neither of these factors seems to matter. As far as I can tell, it's random.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:36

#12

Skepticraven

@Bopp

Yeah, I definitely dont think its damage or time. Thus my more comprehensive approach (of spamming IMF).

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:52

#13

Bopp

yes :)

In case I didn't adequately acknowledge your point: Please keep collecting these data. It would be great to solve this puzzle. :)

I am particularly interested in "hot streaks" of 4 tokens. In the past, there have been threads on hot streaks for item drops from treasure boxes. I'm wondering whether some kind of hot streak phenomenon has been programmed into the game. That would explain some things.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 17:53

#14

No-Thanks

i agree to random

my opinion about this hasnt changed

then again i havent done any testing either
the easiest way to find out is always to consult the programmers
experimentally finding out requires u to pinpoint it somehow..i wouldnt know how to go about that

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 19:25

#15

Zipb

Yup, most probably random.

I also thought it depended on speed, health, deaths, full party from lobby with no leavers/joiners etc. Slowly all of these theories have been proven wrong.

There's probably just a small chance to get 4 instead of 3.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 19:35

#16

Jawny

for fsc, it's not if you use shivermist or not. i've gotten 4 tokens either way.
seems completely random to me.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 01:32

#17

Hexzyle

When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

It's one token per elevator used, including the one from pre-boss run level (Except in FSC where this is subtacted by one to a minimum of one, or something) This means it's a base of 3 tokens for all bosses except Vanaduke, which the base is 4. Then there's a bonus token that brings it to 4 (or 5, in the case of Vanaduke) that you can earn for ...something... regardless of how many tokens you get from doing the floors beforehand.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 03:26

#18

Dutch-Oven

huh that's funny, I usually

huh that's funny, I usually get 6 tokens from vanaduke. You must not know about depth 27b.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 04:30

#19

Ankung

I have no idea!

The problem is, sometimes I'm getting spammed by 4 tokens, and sometimes I only get 3 all the time. It seems so ordered it can't be random. Also, I joined on KoA at depth 25 (Charred Court) and got 4 tokens.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 05:18

#20

Hexzyle

When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

Perhaps it's part of the loot sine-wave?

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 05:20

#21

Scirio

Mhm.

I heard that if you beat a boss with a 5* winmillion you'll get 4 tokens. Go ahead. Try it out.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 05:48

#22

Popoixd

@Scirio: Its took me 5

@Scirio: Its took me 5 seconde to understand the thing.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 06:04

#23

Mohandar

Probably entirely random, or at best it grabs some internal variables (like time, damage or somesuch), shoves them through a formula and checks against a table to see if it is a jackpot value.

If you start the mission from the lobby, you can leave and rejoin (to forge, for example) and still get full tokens; however, if you join on the first depth, leaving will reset your depth count.

For most mission bosses, number of tokens is the number of elevators you took before reaching boss, up to a max of 3. In King of Ashes, joining at d24 or lobby will give you a shot at 4 tokens (if someone has gotten 4 from joining at d25 Charred Court, do post).

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 06:16

#24

Lanieu

Pretty sure it is just

Pretty sure it is just random.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 06:41

#25

Aplauses

@Dutch-Oven
Not sure if it real or you just trolling :<

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 08:40

#26

Aslani

I've gotten 3 tokens before while a friend in my party got 4. No idea why or how, it was a standard run from everything I remember.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 09:42

#27

Skepticraven

Responses

@Hexzyle

I've never had vanaduke drop 5. There is some subtraction going on somewhere, since its the same 3 with a rare case of 4.

@Ankung

There's an interesting mechanic where it seems to only count the elevators. The same thing exists for recipes - where you dont actually have to be there the entire depths, just take the elevator each time. The 4 token seems to be a group-wide thing. (I'm assuming in parties, if anyone is ready to get the 4 tokens everyone will - even if they joined last depth?). Perhaps it also records older elevators that you took prior to the current party that was joined (to make sure the "go solo" doesn't lose tokens like it steals heat).

@Dutch-Oven

I'm interested in the classic vanaduke, not darkfire.

@Scirio

Go troll somewhere else. I'm actually interested in finding this out. Continue, and I will report you for spamming my thread.

@Aslani

I've never seen this happen, with the exception of people joining parties without taking elevators and whatnot.

@Everyone
I still don't think its completely random, as noted with my 3 token only IMF runs. I'm up more than 160 tokens and still no 4 token run.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 10:21

#28

Hexzyle

The fox says "Or do you want to touch my special fluffy tail?"

I've never had vanaduke drop 5. There is some subtraction going on somewhere, since its the same 3 with a rare case of 4.

You sure? I'm pretty sure like every single time I do a full FSC run, I get 4 tokens. I've heard rumors of people getting 5, but I haven't seen it myself.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 10:36

#29

Bopp

real time?

Skepticraven, can you give us a sense of how much real time passed while you were collecting these data? For example, did you get your string of 4-token runs on September 19, and then get your other 4-token run on October 19?

There is an old thread about item drops from treasure boxes, in which a player claimed to have a "system". He claimed that during certain parts of the month (say, the 18th-20th of every month), he was more likely to get item drops. I was skeptical of his claim; it sounded like over-interpretation of random noise. The only thing that made me believe him at all is that his reported total number of item drops was really, really impressive.

There are a lot of gambling aspects to this game (prize wheel, UVs, prize boxes, Book of Dark Rituals, etc.). Presumably, Three Rings has inserted gambling specifically to make the game more addictive :(. I don't know much about the psychology of gambling, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that hot streaks are powerful motivators for gamblers. And it's certainly technically possible for Three Rings to program hot streaks into the gambling aspects of this game. So I wouldn't be surprised if the game actually was programmed with hot streaks.

To clarify: People shouldn't take this "programmed hot streak" idea too seriously. We don't have any real evidence for it. Even in uniformly random phenomena, one expects to get hot streaks sometimes.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 10:52

#30

Skepticraven

@Bopp

This data has been under collection for about 1.5 months.
The most recent 4 tokens (from JK) was yesterday (Nov 13) with the 3 token one right after it. I have no clue when the other ones were - but they were on the same day. It is probably closer to a week since the last 4 tokens rather than a month.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 11:00

#31

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

klip once said something like that linking to a video of extra credits I believe. the only thing we can do on it is studying the drop rates. issuing something like a whole guild collecting data seems huge, impractical and a good solution.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 13:04

#32

Geakfreak

Ever fought about lost connection players or leavers ?

Like in PvP if some one leaves u get more tokens. Most of the time when people have lost connection or something i get 4 tokens.. so yeah i think that's it but thats just my theory

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 13:16

#33

Skepticraven

@Geekfreak

Possibly, but unlikely - as all of my runs were solo, with some that got 4 tokens. So there is a mechanic to get it without leavers.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 17:33

#34

Theirillusion

Hexzyle is just joking, of course there is no way to get 5 tokens in a fsc run.

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 17:46

#35

Sweet-Hope

since i dont have nothing else to do in the game i decided to farm jelly gem tokens for fun.

Mode: Elite
i made it with the following equipment: Lion Heart blade, Glacius, Obsidian Edge, Obsidian Crusher. Chaos set, Swift strike buckler for speed run

Killed: everything (i just leave the mini jellies since they dont give something)

order i did the rooms in the second floor: First upper left room, second upper right room, third, lower right room, last: lower left room.

Killed the boss with: Obsidian edge.

1st run: got 3 tokens
2nd run: got 3 tokens
3rd run: got 4 tokens
4th run: got 4 tokens
5th run: got 3 tokens.

For me thats pretty random and i did always the same way and always killed the boss quickly sometimes a bit late due going afk many times, sometimes perfect. so.. i honestly doubt there a "pattern" :/ is random

Wed, 11/13/2013 - 22:10

#36

Skayeth

@Nick

I wish some admin or GM would answer.....instead of leaving this in the shadows.

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 00:48

#37

Xtweeterx

@Annilaton

We got one last chance.

/shout ZEDDYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 06:37

#38

Bopp

more like Lancer Knightz on this one

Zeddy tends to collect data on deterministic processes (damage numbers, defense effects, etc.) so that he can reverse-engineer the game. Lancer Knightz tends to collect data on highly variable processes (crown payouts, etc.), like this one. But they don't have any data on it, I think. They don't make it part of their mission data, which would be the obvious place.

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 08:09

#39

Skayeth

@Zeddy

Well, they must know. All of them must know. Just another secret Nick wouldn't tell us.

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 16:24

#40

Xtweeterx

@Annilaton

Maybe it's... the #10!? O.o

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 20:47

#41

Skayeth

@Xtweeterx

Nah, one player already figured it out and Nick confirmed it.

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 20:55

#42

Skepticraven

@Xtweeterx and Annilaton

Please stop spamming my thread. I have discussed my discontent with both of you in other threads. This thread is NOT about making jokes and clogging up the informative posts in my thread.

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 20:57

#43

Skayeth

@Skepticraven

Aww, fine. But don't be so Skepti-cal and stop Craven' these negative posts.

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 21:16

#44

Xtweeterx

Wait since when did someone

Wait since when did someone figure it out and Nick confirmed it? Link please?

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 21:46

#45

Hero-Of-Cheese

Actually...

That guy didn't solve it. Everyone though he did, but it wasn't the #10, said so by Nick. Now to find that thread...

Thu, 11/14/2013 - 21:47

#46

Skayeth

@Hero-Of-Cheese

What, the guy didn't solve it?! Nick said he did, something about levels in the login page and a whole level fits inside a sphere.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 00:39

#47

Hexzyle

When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

Nick said he did

No, Nick said that Pixeljoy was correct in his analysis of the Skydomes. This was on a completely different thread to the 10 Things thread. He said nothing about the Skydome concept being #10 on the list on either thread, and even outright stated that it wasn't, because of the vast circulation of the rumor. It was the community who thought that the Skydome concept was #10.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 01:19

#48

Xtweeterx

@Hexzyle

So, that means #10 is still a mystery?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 01:35

#49

Hexzyle

I don't like being spoonfed information, nor spoonfeeding others

but yes.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 07:59

#50

Corewalker

ヒス(Hisu).

I tend to get lots of 4 token runs. It appears, to me at least, that these criteria have to be fulfilled to get 4 tokens from a boss mode.

*Complete all of the boss mode depths
*Defeat the boss in a reasonably short amount of time
*Receive little damage through entire boss stages
*Have party members that also incur little damage through boss stages.

It seems that dying on any floor (either you or your party) or otherwise sustaining heavy damage cripples the rate of this happening.

When my full party has:

> blitz on vana and he goes down smoothly
> me covered on Roarmulus so I can bring down both puppies at once and lower time to defeat
> several dark retributions for jelly king

I see frequent 4 tokens. I have not seen a 3 token run for Jelly king in the past week for me, since I always carry retribution and polish him off quickly, and support my team with seraphynx.

So, there's obviously some kind of method to it. It cant just be random.

ヒス (Hisu).

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The mysterious 4 boss token runs.