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Weapon diversity is ineffective!

8 replies [Last post]
Wed, 11/20/2013 - 11:27
Krakob's picture
Krakob

In LD, you find yourself at need the most when you're fighting a respectable opponent. To fight a powerful opponent, you'll want the best weapon you have against them. So to be able to fight them effectively, you bring two weapons of various damage types.

I figured this isn't necessarily how one should do, though. Why not? Because one can generalise the typical high end player and one of those matter more than four scrubs that you can kill without taking a hit. The key component to generalise high end players is BKC. BKC gives Normal and Shadow defence. This means that the opponent has no access to any notable amount of Elemental or Piercing defence. They can bring Ancient Plate to get a good amount of defensive power while probably (unless they have two good Shadow UVs) remaining at no notable amount of Shadow defence or bring Snarby/Shadowsun and such to get some Normal and some Shadow defence. The amounts for BKC+Snarby/Shadowsun are not notable, though. That is, unless your opponent has some good UVs to boost these amounts and most high end players do have good UVs. Since we want to optimise our fighting against the best, we assume they have some good UVs.

Let's say Shadow Medium+Normal Medium on both pieces. That's 51.2 defence per damage type in addition to what they normally get. Versus a shadow sword, it's a very notable amount of 102.4 defence, 2½ pips.

For guns, which deal pure damage, the amount isn't as notable because of the so called damage threshold (see below). Although Umbra driver has but 264 damage, it will probably take some UVs for your opponent to reach the threshold because anyone with an Umbra probably has some damage bonus as one would probably prefer Valiance/Antiguas to Umbra if used as only a sidearm. In fact, let's do the maths on that. The Umbra user is wearing either BKC+Justifier/Nameless, full Shadowsun, or BKC+Shadowsun. That's an average of 4 DI. 1 DI gives a bonus of 4% on the base damage so that's a 16% increase. 264 *116% = 306,24, probably rounded down to 306. The threshold is past 153 with 4 DI, then. If my memory serves me right, a full class set gives about 140 defence. This means that one is required to have at least a bit of UVs to reach the threshold.

Threshold: Shortly put, we know that the effectivity of defence diminishes when defence > damage/2. No one knows the formula for this, except Nick and probably Contri.

Let's compare to other weapons, then. Notably for swords, the only comparison we can do is DA vs GF because Acheron is just too damn OP. With said gear and UVs, one would get about 240 defence vs Gran Faust but only 100 (which is the minimum) vs DA. This is a difference of 6 pips, very notable.

For guns, there are many comparisons we can do. Let's settle for just doing Nova vs Umbra, though. The two share damage but your opponent has a huge amount of Shadow defence. I'd estimate maybe 3/4 of it is resisted, which means that the effective damage is maybe 76 if my estimation is even close. Nova, on the other hand, will deal 206 damage. The difference would in that case be 130 damage, or 3.25 pips. Someone correct me if you find my estimation to be off, please.

With all this in mind, would you rather combine say, your Voltedge with DA or GF, your Storm Driver with Nova or Umbra, and so on?

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 13:18
#1
Parkermealey's picture
Parkermealey
No

No

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 18:45
#2
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle
^

here we are with a classic case of someone who's simply better off not posting

i'm going to go ahead and put on my lab coat and prescribe you a box of common sense, to be taken liberally as needed anytime you feel the urge to post a two-bit reply to something that is just bounds and leagues over your head. in fact i'm gonna go ahead and get another box on back order because you seem like you're really gonna need it.

now, to get back on topic:

i feel like you can only optimize your loadouts so far in terms of raw damage output before it becomes less an issue of numbers and more an issue of your own skill with said weapon(s). now, i'll admit that i haven't kept up with the numbers game very much, and a lot of it is because i simply haven't cared to outside of helping guildies test different UVs on things. that being said though, i think a fundamental flaw with damage output is that rarely is player skill actually accounted for to the degree that it can be. if you're good with a set of weapons that do less than stellar damage but are much more likely to give you the hit in comparison to another weapon, the damage will end up averaging out more or less.

for example, i'll put myself out there and say that i cannot use any of the alchemer lines in pvp to save my life. obviously, logic would dictate that it's possible that gunning as a whole isn't something that should be considered in my case. however, because there's multiple styles of guns, such as AP or Sentenza (or carbine whatever, they're functionally the same gun with one having a slight poison proc), which essentially favor that precision vs. power concept, the overall damage theory gets played with a bit to the point that ability with a weapon will eventually outweigh raw damage numbers in comparison to a stronger weapon being used by the same person, who may not be as well versed in using it.

now, my own logic gets circumvented a bit when taking into consideration that there are other players who are equally skilled with both weapons, and can get the hit with alchemers in much the same manner that someone else would get a hit with a faster-but-weaker gun. at that point, player skill once again seems to be neglected and/or overgeneralized to just assume that the other player will take the hit, without much consideration for their ability and how much care they take into keeping their booster from being completely drained. i say this, because too often i've seen scenarios where, if a player had been more cognizant (that's a weird word when you type it out) of their boost meter, they could have avoided the extra 2 second boost cooldown and been able to keep the fight in their favor - or, in some cases, turn the tide back to their favor.

in conclusion, while i'm sure having raw numbers to run with will give you a good idea of what to expect from your typical LD match, or your 1v1 situations, or even what someone would actually do for that klondike bar (and are even a boon to have so you don't overestimate your gearsets or underestimate an opponents gearset), that's really only half the battle. i can't bring myself to rag on those who do run damage numbers, because i was one of those kids who was so concerned with IVs and EV training in pokemon and would run damage calcs on supereffective moves, not very effective stuff, and the like. but the point is, after a certain point, numbers can only give you a rough estimation of how the battle(s) will go, and this will continue to be the case until there's some concrete/nonbiased way to factor in player skill as an absolute value to account for the other half. yes, i'm generalizing a bit in terms of halves, but you get the point.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 20:24
#3
Parkermealey's picture
Parkermealey
@ret

That's actually true. I have no idea what Krakob is talking about.
Edit: after reading your post; what either of you are talking about

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 06:30
#4
Krakob's picture
Krakob

I definitely think that skill > numbers in most cases but there are many cases where there are alternatives equal to each other. AP and Sentenza, DA and GF, Umbra and Nova, as well as earlier, Ele Brandishes and Acheron. Maybe future updates will bring more weapons equal in function but different in numbers.

If one has a weapon like this, it's not a matter of mastering one, it's a matter of choosing one.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 15:46
#5
Jawny's picture
Jawny
-

you're better off just spamming a hammer for every single opponent.
Vog with double elemental max?
pull out that hammer.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 09:24
#6
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Redblades

False.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkB_kx1fvrxadHBaUFhGVUdlNWh...
Scroll down to P2W Vog/Chaos under Warmaster Rocket Hammer and have a look. Even a Flourish will do better against a double Ele Max Vog.

In other news, I appear to have been wrong about some defence values and the effects of the threshold. Defence is stronger for a bit when past the threshold and I've listed UVs as twice as powerful as they actually are. Sorry 'bout that.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 09:28
#7
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle
i feel like red's actual

i feel like red's actual point was that even with the double elemental max, the speed advantage from the hammer makes up for it, and has a wider range overall than a flourish with none of the penalties a heavy sword usually has

so while the flourish will do more damage, it's overall easier to land a hit with the hammer, especially considering the spam mentality it tends to bring out in people

this isn't taking into account that if you miss, you can dash past them, away from them, or through them to reposition without having to use your class mod

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 09:40
#8
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Yes, yes, but now we're not discussing choosing a functionally identical but numerically different weapon as much as we're discussing weapon balance and overall effectivity in which case all I can say is Acheron.

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