Spiral Knights - Just how often are ASI VH UVs better than ASI High UVs in the late end game?

Just how often are ASI VH UVs better than ASI High UVs in the late end game?

32 replies [Last post]

Sat, 11/23/2013 - 08:58

Krakob

To me, Swiftstrike Buckler is the optimal shield. There are very few cases where I'd rather use something else (SLs, DMs) and since Swiftstrike provides ASI High, I have no good reason to get more than ASI High unless we're talking about PvP gear.
Any gunslinger or swordsman should reach a point where they very seldom need anything but Swiftstrike so I'm wondering, how worthwhile do you people think getting ASI VH instead of High is?

One notable case where a VH UV would actually make a difference is if you have one piece of ASI gear, giving you a max and allowing you to use any shield of choice or BTS for greater sword damage. Still, one should still consider that getting the most bonuses out of your gear means using full Chaos/Chaos+BKC and thus, one would gain more from Swiftstrike unless one has an ASI VH UV.

Sat, 11/23/2013 - 09:45

Bopp

some +1 is wasted, in either SSB or the UV

It's hard to know what to take as "given" in your question. The answer seems to depend on what other items, UVs, etc. have already been fixed. But I think that your main point is: Abilities usually come in increments of +2. Thus either SSB's extra +1 over BTS is wasted, or ASI+4's extra +1 over ASI+3 is wasted. I can't think of a counterexample (for end-game players).

Sat, 11/23/2013 - 19:17

Poopsie

...

Still picked an asi vh because of my ocd. Buying an asi high is like... uh I guess when I am richer, i am going to buy the asi vh one, and that irks me. I still picked a non-uv combuster over uv-ed voltedge at ghosts in the machine though.

Sat, 11/23/2013 - 22:04

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

I don't know. Why don't you ask my ASI VH Combuster?

But I could test ASI High Achreon (Vog Coat and pet perk) and compare it to my Combuster.

Any minute now a certain knight with a Miracle set will come in and link a certain wiki page...

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 01:43

Krakob

@Poopsie

Same. Although I have a couple of Highs from crafts and rolls, I'd never buy a High because I might as well just farm O:CH for another week and get VH. LD is what gives me a reason to get VH.

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 09:50

Dutch-Oven

I think use of swifty

I think use of swifty end-game (and therefore your weapon asi UV requirements) depends partly on whether you're going full hybrid or not. to get 3xmax bonuses on all weapon types you'd need the swifty. If focusing on 1 or 2 types then you can 3xmax without it. (Assuming end-game means having lvl 100 sprite, all elite trinkets and attempting to max everything out).

Chaos + swifty + High ASI swords and guns +sword, gun and bomb DMG trinkets/perk
or
Chaos + VH ASI swords and guns + BTS + gun DMG perk+ sword and gun ASI trinkets (leaving only bomb DMG at VH)

Another thing to consider is MSI, which is useful for high clear speeds. With BKC+chaos and swiftsteps you can either use swifty and only lose 1 point of DMG, or with ASI VH weps use a defensive shield, losing 1 DMG and 2CTR from chaos cowl (provided you dont have ctr on all your weapons).

To me Sk's end game means maximising your defences while maintaining maximum offensive bonuses in order to achieve faster clear times. For that reason I don't consider using swifty as end game and only asi vh UV+ asi med trinket with an optimal shield is truly end game because I think having a good shield will overall benefit you more in terms of not wasting time being shocked or frozen or poisoned or not being able to shield bump.

As for LD end game of course you want VH. Practically though, high is just as good. I have VHs and highs on guns and swords and I cant tell the difference. VH is 3x the price so while its not strictly worth it most people will want it just to feel complete. Some people say having ASI max messes up the timing with invinci-frames and that theres an optimal ASI for each weapon, I'm not too sure on that one though.

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 11:18

Krakob

@Dutch

One could science speed and invinciframes but we'd need very exact timing on everything and we don't have that. The only big project that covers weapon speed is Lancer Knightz and that data is as far as I know not very exact, just measuring combos per minute rather than ms per attack and whatnot.

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 12:06

Momofuku

Personally, I think ASI med is all that you need for solid PVE play. Getting higher ASI to get better at PVE is somewhat of a waste when most of PVE is ability to dodge and avoid damage.

Although I do most of my PVE in BKC + Chaos + Swiftstrike, I prefer to vana with Volcanic Plate Shield. Sometimes lag is just unforgiving and sliding into shadow fires or just being barely within a trojan smash range does break the shield with a Swiftstrike. Volcanic Plate takes a big beating from stun and fire sources and I've never felt FSC required ASI anything since charge attacks (brandish, blitz) fared better than ASI.

ASI is very useful in lockdown, especially for 50ms+ ping users since ASI is basically a way to make up for laggier internet. It doesn't make up for everything, but I've found myself needing to slow down my weapon switch timings every time more players show up on the screen, and with ASI high or better, I don't need to slow down my timing as much. With ASI Med I still felt I needed at least a 1 second pause after attacking in order to switch weapons.

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 16:39

Leekcoco

ASI VH and High feels the same to me as well. Even gun switching with Med and VH didn't seem to pose a problem. VH is mostly to soothe some OCD.

Mon, 11/25/2013 - 23:19

Feyi-Feyi

Because I'm a PvP ho as everyone in this thread knows I'll give you my take on PvP.
Might still be valid for PvE but as Momo said Med is all you need for that.

If you go from med to high you'll probably say meh.
If you go from high to vh you'll also probably say meh.
If you go from med to VH you'll go OMG LOOK AT THE SPEED ON THIS MF.

That's the emotional part. In practice if you get accustomed to the timing of an ASI high you won't miss out on anything that VH will give you.
I feel like there's also definitely an ease of mind in thinking 'yes, this is the best it's gonna get'.

Hope you didn't need facts, I'm kind of lacking on those :3

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 09:46

#10

Krakob

Oh you

I do agree with you. The difference between two levels is hardly notable but having the better will definitely help you, most often with faster shield cancels. The difference between two levels is pretty significant and very easy to take note of, though.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:47

#11

Bopp

another consideration

Another consideration is that Three Rings frequently fiddles with the item statistics, in ways that disrupt optimal gearing. It's conceivable that someday they will nerf SSB to ASI+2 (and maybe give it a 5-star version, still with ASI+2). Were that to happen, you'd be wishing for ASI+4 UVs instead of ASI+3 UVs.

(I speak from experience. Long ago, I went for CTR UVs on my swords, to complement Vog Cub, Skolver, and Snarbolax. The Chaos buff basically destroyed that entire UV strategy.)

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:55

#12

Krakob

I wouldn't quite agree. Balance changes are most common with the introduction of new items. Chaos was buffed when BKC was introduced and Acheron was buffed with the introduction of Obsidian Edge. Balance changes don't happen rather frequently otherwise and it's definitely not on OOO's priority list. They've admitted that they know the Chaos vs Mad Bomber issues yet nothing has been done about it for soon a full year and so on.
I don't see what they might introduce to make Swiftstrike require stat changes, especially considering that they don't often release new non-5* gear.

But you never know, I suppose. Still, I find Swiftstrike Buckler to be balanced. It's worthless as a shield in the end game and provides a bonus not extremely overpowered. The question is if OOO shares my opinion.

(I went for CTR on a lot of stuff, too. Mediums on it all. In the end, it has just allowed me to combine several swords with Chaos and BKC to get CTR max+DI Ultra.)

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 12:06

#13

Bopp

mostly right

You're right, that buffs tend to happen when they are forced by other items. But there have also been occasions, such as release 2012-03-22, when lots of balancing happened for no apparent reason. (Perfect Mask of Seerus was introduced one month earlier, but it's hard to believe that it caused all of this activity a month later.) Cheers.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 12:38

#14

Krakob

Good balancing, nonetheless. When was the last time we got a balance update like that, though? I mean, that was more than 1½ years ago.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 07:42

#15

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

So I did the tests, and comparing (will not mention because a certain Greaver will pop up) my Combuster and my Achreon, ASI VH and ASI High are mostly the same thing. Same with Ultra and Maximum.

What about -2 to -1? -1 to 0? 0 to low? Low to Med? Med to High? Testers, head to room 624 immediately!

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 19:27

#16

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Double Post XD

@V Bopp

By "mostly the same thing", I meant they feel the same. And I couldn't find the ASI chart from yer guild, so thanks for the link.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 07:59

#17

Bopp

those are not data

So I did the tests...ASI VH and ASI High are mostly the same thing. Same with Ultra and Maximum.

Well, it's nice that you ran some kind of test, but those results don't really help us. "Mostly the same thing?" I don't know what that means.

What about -2 to -1? -1 to 0? 0 to low? Low to Med? Med to High? Testers, head to room 624 immediately!

This has all been tested already by Lancer Knightz (although combos per minute is just one way to measure the effect of ASI, as Krakob has already pointed out in this thread).

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 08:20

#18

Krakob

Pretty sure it's all on a linear scale where each point of ASI has the same effect.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 08:49

#19

Whimsicality

What I'm curious about is, does ASI MAX stack with the attack speed buff of Maskeraith/Drakon's Ultimates? I swear it does, but maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 10:11

#20

Dutch-Oven

I made a script to automate

I made a script to automate weapon switching using AutoHotkey, and you can specify the exact millisecond time between actions with that and reduce it to the absolute lowest time required to perform an action. So for example my single weapon switch script has the shield cancel set to 350ms. With ASI max this works, but further reducing the time or the amount of ASI I have on will start to break it.

You could make similar scripts to work out the rough times for a weapons single attack using different ASIs. Just make it attack every x ms and when it starts performing the second attack you know you've reached its maximum speed.

This is subject to variance from pc performance/network/buffering/etc but on average you can tell when the script is executing correctly or not.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 10:36

#21

Krakob

I'm not too sure what the GMs think of that, though.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 11:20

#22

Dutch-Oven

I just did a little test with

I just did a little test with my DA.

max ASI: 930ms (time between swings without triggering a combo)
ultra ASI: 960ms
high ASI: 1020ms
low ASI: 1100ms

the script:
Numpad0::
Send z (z is attack button)
sleep 1100
Send z
return

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 11:20

#23

Krakob

I don't think this is the best way to do it, honestly.
For testing the end of an attack, you can simply record yourself as you swing and do nothing but hold a move button. The attack is completely finished when you start walking. This would at least work for swords and guns that make you stand still. You could hold shield button to time when you can cancel.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 11:28

#24

Dutch-Oven

If you rely on video playback

If you rely on video playback for measuring time you're introducing a number of problems such as frame rates, dropped frames, performance issues and most importantly user error, not to mention the extra time doing it. Not saying it wont work but you'd have to spend some time getting your method down solid enough to be reliable.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 11:45

#25

Bopp

that is the usual way

Inspecting video is the usual way to measure this kind of thing, I believe. For example, I think it's how the Bombing Guide gets its precise bomb charge times.

I'm not convinced that your key macro approach is any more reliable, but it seems less laborious, and that's worth a lot. So I'd love to see more data like this. Unfortunately item 6.13 in the Terms of Service forbids "scripting or macroing software". Hmm.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 11:50

#26

Dutch-Oven

Scripting? what Scripting? Oh

Scripting? what Scripting? Oh did I say I was using a script? My mistake, I meant to say I made a banana milkshake. I'm using video for testing lol my bad!! dunno what that funny code stuff is, just thought it looked cool lol!

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 12:16

#27

Dutch-Oven

Shield cancelling a DA Max

Shield cancelling a DA

Max ASI: 520ms (time it takes for the shield to cancel the attack)
Ultra ASI: 540ms
High ASI: 580ms

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 12:30

#28

Dutch-Oven

BTB cancel speed: max:

BTB cancel speed:

max: 285ms
ultra: 295ms
high: 315ms

(starting to get inconsistent at this speed due to my connection).

I'll stop here 'cause I don't want to spam this thread, just throwing out some numbers to show the diff between max and ultra.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 17:30

#29

Bopp

but keep going

Your reluctance to spam is noble, but it's okay to spam when you actually have something really valuable to say! Please keep going. If you like, keep going and then report a bunch of numbers all at once? I volunteer to gather your numbers up and format them for the wiki (giving all credit to you of course).

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 19:35

#30

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Valuable? Is THIS valuable? http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQN2Zzdz2Gsbu73ZjXt_c5tlWcA3WPZE...

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 20:26

#31

Bopp

post #16

Just for the record, Lancer Knightz is not my guild.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 12:21

#32

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

o_e

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Just how often are ASI VH UVs better than ASI High UVs in the late end game?