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A compromise of the forge: ~2.5x Needed With Optional Forge

14 replies [Last post]
Thu, 11/28/2013 - 22:32
Troll-Lolo's picture
Troll-Lolo

So, it has been quite some time since OOO gave us the forge, but I still want it changed, and my new suggestion is a good compromise I believe.

Idea
The amount of heat from embers needed to fill the heat gauge of an item will be increased. For 0* and 1* gear it could stay the same, seeing as the people using that armor are just starting and shouldn't worry too much about heating yet. As for 2* and 3* a possible increase from the current heating rate could be 1.5x. 4* being a 2x increase and 5* being a 2.5x increase. The heat would act the same as it does now, only difference being that it can directly go to the next heat level after filling the heat gauge. And as for forging, when the item's heat gauge reaches 50%, the option to forge is added; The forging option will remain until the item reaches the next heat level. The forge will act the same as it does now.

Effects
With this added we won't have to be forced to be halted by the forge, especially in our Radiant drought. The forge will become a shortcut to the next heat level, and seen as helpful instead if hindering and annoying.

TL;DR
Heating takes longer, and forge is made optional

That is all I got, discuss!

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 05:09
#1
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I like this idea.

I'd say more than 2.5x the heat needed- something like 10x as much- then increase the chances for a forge prize box, so as to re-inforce the gambling aspects.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 10:29
#2
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

+1 to Fehz, if you make forging optional you have to make normal heating a lot longer to balance it. Add-on idea, though: What if we could use Heat crystals at any time, not only when the weapon is leveled, to accelerate the heating process?

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 10:56
#3
Masterreeve's picture
Masterreeve
I make you black, bluue and red all over

I don't like the forge system myself, but it does server it's purpose. It was meant to slow down players from crafting, since elevators are free now, and this idea would just speed up heating again. Even if it takes longer to collect heat, the fact that you can do it for free would mean not many people would ever use the forge. And if you bought a heat amp, you could all but bypass this heating nerf to what it was before. That would mean the game would lean towards the Pay to Win category more now, as heat amps are excessively expensive. I would assume this would just make even more players complain then before.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 16:12
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

The genius of this suggestion, especially if a value greater than 2.5 is chosen as the multiplier, is that it doesn't make the game go by incredibly quickly. In fact, it hardly changes anything. Think about your battle sprite- did you use heat only on that?

This suggestion is about image- when world of warcraft players were given a sleep system, they hated it because it held them back. So the developers changed it to "extra loot" when your character is fully rested rather than "less loot" when your character is sleep deprived and players loved the optimization aspect of it.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 02:50
#5
Eta-Carinae's picture
Eta-Carinae
My suggestions

I would like to argue that the status quo is more pay-to-win than this theoretical heat rate nerf. The drop rate for radiant fire crystals is currently too low, forcing players to purchase them at the supply depot. Radiant fire crystals being both rare and mandatory (in large quantities) effectively creates 10 pay walls for leveling up 5* gear. Consider that a package of 50 radiant fire crystals cost 700ce and players may need to purchase 1-2 packages per level. Consider also that radiant fire crystal farming is gambling and time and effort don't necessarily translate into progress.

In contrast, a heat nerf will always reward a player for the time and effort they sink. Heat amplifiers are optional, so players still have a choice about spending time or money. If a player decides to buy one, it may cost him 800ce if he can max out within 2 days, or 1400ce within 7 days. If we assume fire crystals are abundant or optional, the heat nerf is cheaper than status quo.

In my opinion, the forge system is fine the way it is. The only problem is the drop rate for the radiant fire crystals. The forge system is designed to slow the heating process, not halt it. My suggestion is to either restore the radiant fire crystal drop rate or allow us to upgrade our surplus shining fire crystals via alchemy. Perhaps a recipe for converting 5 shinings to 3 radiants for 500cr?

Decreasing the heat rate by 10x seems excessive, especially if you take into account the time limit for crafting Apocrea gear. I find the suggestion for 2.5x more agreeable because it might decrease the frequency of people leaving missions to forge. In fact, I would like to suggest allowing us to forge at any time without the need for an equipment locker.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 06:36
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

^As I told someone else, the issue with upgrading fire crystals is that I should have to actually do appropriate content to get the fire crystals. Imagine I come to T3, and I already have a full set of 5* gear- all by farming the lower leveled fire crystals... I got through the mission system by getting carried; I asked for "help" and I got it. That isn't how I'd like to see the game played... rather, I'd like to be challenged fairly and rewarded appropriately.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 15:04
#7
Masterreeve's picture
Masterreeve
I make you black, bluue and red all over

@ Eta-Carinae
Adding onto what Fehzor said, it wouldn't be wise to allow forging at any time. Otherwise, the strength of a particular piece of gear would change mid floor, meaning that all damage calculation would have to be redone. I'm not sure if this is all done beforehand once the floor is started or for every attack, but I assume it still would require extra processing. Also, forge can be compared to crafting, so if we can forge anywhere people would complain why they can't craft anywhere as well.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 17:00
#8
Dibsville's picture
Dibsville
+Infinity

This sounds amazing. I like the idea of it being optional, however if it were to revert I'd want to see it take a pretty good amount of time before it levels up, as opposed to the old system. I hate the new heating system-- first we had so many Radiants that we complained when we got more of them, now we have so many Shinings that all we do is rant about how there's no Radiants left. This would put an end to all of it, as well as still make the Forge system very useful since it could potentially be a huge shortcut to leveling up. I can clearly remember it taking forever to heat 5* gear, so adding this would be absolutely amazing.

+Infinity.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 17:33
#9
Eta-Carinae's picture
Eta-Carinae
@Fehzor If you have deep

@Fehzor
If you have deep pockets, the game allows you to start T3 with a full set of maxed 5* gear. All you need to farm is heat. If you want to prevent this, OOO should remove fire crystals from the supply depot and raise the drop rate for radiant fire crystals. Since the drought, I only earned 3 radiant fire crystals from T3 elite. I don't believe I was fairly compensated for my challenges, so my choice to farm is effectively eliminated. The remaining option to buy is unattractive because each level costs as much as crafting 5* gear (pre-forge).

The only thing I hated about the forge system was that I didn't have enough shining fire crystals, and the rarity recipes fixed that. Now, my biggest issue is that radiant fire crystals are too rare and expensive. My perception is that a choice was taken from me and I am forced to (as opposed to voluntarily) spend money. I'm not saying this is OOO's intention, but this is the situation that the forge system seems to have created.

@Masterreeve
Instead of "forge anywhere", I suggest adding a heating station at the beginning of every floor (or every floor without lockers). It allows you to feed your pet and forge your weapons without the benefit of changing your gear.

Mon, 12/02/2013 - 17:29
#10
Melonfish's picture
Melonfish
+1. This would solve a lot of problems.

So, to summarize..

The suggested heating system would be reverted to the old one, rebalanced to require more heat than before. This would bring back the more constant method of progression at last.

Increasing the heating curve high enough to simply start warranting the use of Heat Amplifiers. This would finally avert their obsolete functionality.

Due to old heating system being adopted, levels won't be locked once fully heated. That would essentially mean that forging wouldn't require this condition to upgrade weapons and armors, allowing to do so at any time.

However, that also means that a reasonably rich or wealthy player could simply upgrade a piece of equipment to Lv. 10 in one sitting, which poses a problem. To this end, I suggest that OOO changes the Forge into an NPC service feature, similar to Bechamel, Punch and Vise, and slightly increase the cost or simply adds a condition for forging to replace the full-heat requirement.

The bonuses for forging may or may not be changed. The heat bonus and the level skips would be a lot more beneficial this time around.

All in all, I fully intend this idea to make it to the game.

Mon, 12/02/2013 - 19:28
#11
Masterreeve's picture
Masterreeve
I make you black, bluue and red all over

@ Melonfish

Straight from the OP

And as for forging, when the item's heat gauge reaches 50%, the option to forge is added; The forging option will remain until the item reaches the next heat level. The forge will act the same as it does now.

So would wouldn't be able to get lvl 10 in one sitting, you would still have to actually use the piece of gear and heat it a little before you can forge it. And I would assume that 50% of the bar would be more than 100% from before this update would be implemented.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 02:13
#12
Dizzy-Spiral
My thoughts on the matter.

You know, I've been thinking of this too for awhile, and been complaining about it till one of my guildmates pointed me to this post. I've read through all these comments, and honestly? it improved my idea too on this subject. Of course, now I'm seeing quite a few things you guys are saying to 'balance' the idea, and what I don't get is why didn't you guys think to the Battle Sprite lvling system?

Now before you guys think I'm thinking using the crystals for both lvling and boosting, hear me out, cause here's what I'm thinking:

1. Much like the old system, you CAN lvl your gear without crystals, though it would probably take quite a bit longer than without.
2. The crystals would be removed from the supply depot, and you would have to find the materials spread around the Clockworks to make said crystals, or the crystals itself with like a 5% drop rate from normal missions, 10% from Advanced, and 15% from elete for ALL TEIRS, it would just be diffrent crystals at diffrent depth ranges, like 0-1 at Teir 1, 2-3 at Teir 2, and 4-5 for teir three. While the Crafting would be much like making food for your Sprite, like for example you need 5 "Flame dust" to make a dim fire crystal while 25 for a Radiant.
3. You also, in one setting, can only use five "boosting" crystals, while for forging you can choose to either lvl it for free or use crystals to add bonuses, like low dmg vs constructs or a 25% heat boost, and a slightly higher chance for a forge box the more crystals you put in, the highest being 30% with 10 of the needed crystal. Oh and yes, the "boosts" would come back over time or as you explore the clockworks.
4. You can break down Fire Crystals into said "Flame dust" to repurpose some of your weaker, unneeded crystals to make stronger variants, though you lose 2/5 of the Dusts during the process, for example, a Dim crystal would produce 3 flame dust and a radiant would make about 20 flame dust (though I wouldn't see WHY you would destroy a radiant.)

Now, I would be more than happy to have a little feedback on this, and perhaps improve on the idea if you want. Basically I'm thinking of a way to make the Forge a bit more Play to win rather than Pay to win.

Mon, 12/09/2013 - 18:20
#13
Troll-Lolo's picture
Troll-Lolo
HEY!

Look, a bump!

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 03:59
#14
Nobodyno's picture
Nobodyno
+1 to everything

+1 to everything

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