Proto shield for switch swinging?
Fri, 12/13/2013 - 11:08
Today I started heating my Grand Flourish for Grinclin Assault and having turned to the hispter side of swordswomanship, I've been experimenting with new techniques and stuff recently. Today, it was BTB+Grand Flourish. Very fun to do but that's beside the point. I wish to discuss something else.
When switch swinging quick weapons with small range, shield bumping can turn into a problem because well, you need to be close to your enemy. There's a solution to that, though: Proto Shield. It's a proto! It's a shield! It's Proto Shield without shield bumps. I'm thinking this would be extremely helpful vs enemies that keep close (Greavers, Wolvers, etc.) as it will allow for even greater interruption by throwing more attacks that hit. Of course, you naturally lose something on using the weakest shield in the game.
- +2 DI or +3 ASI, depending on whether you use Swiftstrike or BTS.
- Your ability to shield bump (that's the point), meaning your control over enemy position is greatly reduced.
- Your ability to use the shield as an actual shield. While Swiftstrike is indeed weak, it's respectable enough in T2 and actually able to take a bit of damage in T3.
What I wonder is whether it would all be worth it. I'll definitely be one to try and I shall report results sooner or later (probably later).
List of swords that would benefit from having no shield bump:
- Toothpicks. Notable knockback but only 1.25 tiles of range.
- Mid speed three hit swords (Brandish and such). Terrible reach but no knockback.
- Cutters. Same as above, except they're faster. Do note that switch swinging doesn't fill much of a purpose with these (see post #7)
- Warmaster Rocket Hammer. You don't even need to be switch swinging WRH to benefit from Proto Shield. Having no shield bump is extremely helpful when cancelling out of the dash of the hammer. Do note that it would act just like a Sealed Sword if you don't use the dash at all, though.
List of swords that would not benefit from having no shield bump:
- Troikas and SSs. Their reach combined with knockback means shield bumps seldom happen and grabbing ASI from Swiftstrike is worth a ton.
Ones I have no idea about
- Winmillion. Shoots projectiles but has the melee range of a Brandish. No idea about this one.
Fri, 12/13/2013 - 12:19
#2
Made a video showcasing this in GWW, although it doesn't show the pros of Proto Shield specifically as well, it's T1. Enemies aren't very intimate and die pretty fast there. Encoding at the moment, might be up by tomorrow.
Fri, 12/13/2013 - 12:42
#3
Winmillion. Shoots projectiles but has the melee range of a Brandish. No idea about this one.
If you want to know anything about switch-shooting winmillions, ask Qwez.
Seriously, he loves the things.
Fri, 12/13/2013 - 13:12
#4
Huh
This does sounds interesting. Though, don't brandish and flourish have 'just' enough reach to do this without 3*+ shields getting in the way? Still, the proto shield immediately throws out the need to manage your distance, which is nice.
Fri, 12/13/2013 - 15:59
#5
@Shadowstarkirby
Correct! Problem is that even if you can position yourself well, you'll be pushing the enemies out of range in no time and repositioning over and over can be quite annoying not to mention that it'll take more time than just slashing away at the enemies.
Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:12
#6
Okay! Well then...
I tried out some of the weapons you've listed and so far, Proto Shield compliments Brandish switching and WRH when you use the dash and shield cancel after. DVS and WHB also work of course too. I say these are all viable choices for Proto Shield use.
Trying out the FF/BTB switching, it didn't make much a difference which shield I used cause surprisingly the small amount of knockback kept enemies away well enough to not have bumping issues. I'd throw them into the pile of weapons that don't benefit.
That being said, sword switching is pretty fun, thanks for sharing.
Sat, 12/14/2013 - 03:08
#7
Oh yeah, you're very right about WRH! Can't believe I didn't think about that.
DVS and WHB have the same swing style as mid speed swords so I guess you're right about that, although I dare say you're better off not switch swinging Cutters. I just don't see why one would want to do it, especially since you can just dish out five of the first hits in one go with just one of the two.
I'm not sure where you tried FF and BTB. I did it with Kats and I found my bumps to screw me over severely at times. Scattering much needed crowds and whatnot.
Here's the mentioned video of GWW: http://youtu.be/8wQQlIiIQo8
Sat, 12/14/2013 - 07:47
#8
*scratches head*
Yeah, using the combos on the cutters is completely more sensible, so I wouldn't actually recommend dual switching with them either haha. Scratch that silliness.
I actually tried out FF/BTB on multiple enemies in T3, most memorable being Greavers, Kats, and Zombies (in T3). Fighting Kats again, I can safely say that the knockback on the two swords kept them at a good distance to keep chaining attacks. What I'm doing is using ASI max weapons on both shields and doing much like you did in the video.
Edit: Actually after trying this out some more on Kats, I think I'm understanding where you're coming from with the two. If you happen to shield for too long or miss an attack, SBB can indeed screw things up and shove them away. I say once one gets weapon switching down pat so you don't activate your shield when doing this, you could actually go ahead with SSB too with no issues.
Sat, 12/14/2013 - 08:07
#9
I believe even the slightest shield can bump, actually. Maybe I'm incorrect, though?
Sat, 12/14/2013 - 08:52
#10
Looking carefully...
Doing a quick shield tap alone will bump enemies, regardless how fast you hit the button. Doing a quick shield tap then immediately attacking afterwards (weapon switching endlessly) will not result in shield bumping. The moment you stop attacking, ending your endless barrage with SSB shielding, you will bump the enemy.
So, I believe that you can do this with any shield, but if you slip up with any shield (by not switching fast enough, I checked again and you're free to miss) other than Proto or end your weapon switching combo by shielding, you'll bump the enemy away.
Edit: OH, I get it. This can actually be said for every sword too. You can switch attack so fast with swords that you can avoid seeing the shield animation completely! Thus, you never shield. Proto just simplifies the tactic to not need to do it as fast as you would need to with other shields cause you don't knock back the enemy.
Sun, 12/15/2013 - 17:37
#11
The problem with switch
The problem with switch shooting too quickly at peak efficiency, is that you start to run into Client vs Server issues. The main issue I have when switch-shooting Winmillions, is that my client thinks I continued my attack combo, but in reality, as the server knows, I just switched my Winmillion and I'm not supposed to be moving forwards. This results in jerky movement and it's disorienting to me .-.
I personally have done a couple Force Buckler T3 clockwork runs before, and the main reason I used a low tier shield, was so that I could easily break my shield and gain controlled invulnerability for running through traps and whatnot. For switch-shooting in close range combat, I prefer having a T3 shield to bump enemies away. I found that it's much more useful having your shield bump, than to be able to continually switch-attack.
I mainly only switch shoot when using Twinmillions, in any other case, I just use my extra-hit sword combos or run in circles. Oh I have a Fierce Flamberge and Fearless Rigadoon, and a DA and Faust, but I don't really use them to switch-shoot because they don't benefit from switch-shooting as nearly as much as Twinmillions do. Twinmillions have overall, really slow attack combos and using the extra-hit sword combo does not mitigate the long attack cooldown that Winmillions have. All the other swords have fast enough attack combos and/or recovery times, such that switch-shooting isn't that effective.
EDIT: Winmillion Charge attack is somewhat fixed?
Interesting- I might have to give this a go. But I honestly have no idea about this. Yet.