Spiral Knights - Few suggestions to improve the forge

Few suggestions to improve the forge

92 replies [Last post]

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:49

Megawatt-King

It's been a few months since the forge arrived, along with the so long awaited battle sprites and the bane of the elevator fees (good riddance!). However, the forge has brought a problem or two.

First, you cannot level up multiple times at once with just heat anymore. That's doesn't look too bothersome at 1st glance when you're leveling up gear, but when you're heating low tier/leveled gear on higher tiers or arenas for example, you'll notice that by the time the gear gets ready to level up, you'll still have like 2/3 of collected heat unused, throwing it to waste.

And second, while this is normally not a problem, you cannot level up stuff on boss runs! Why? Because there's no arsenal stations after the 1st level and because of that, once all your stuff is ready to level up, all the immense heat you'll gather will be a waste.

A reason why I did FSC runs was because of how easy it was to heat my arsenal. By the time I finished puncturing or cooling Vanaduck's butt cheeks, my newly acquired weapon was almost fully leveled already! And now that's not possible because of those two reasons.

Not to mention the heat amps are even more useless now! What's the point of spending a lot of energy on it when you still have to grind the crystals out? Especially the 5* ones, god knows why OOO thought it would be a good idea to make those crystals drop at depth 28 or shadow lairs only?...

The current forge is annoying, only serving to be a grindwall and apparently a way to milk the fanbase (doing it wrong btw, look at the obscene prices of the crystals, no sane knight will ever buy them). It would actually be welcoming and useful if it could be used as a way to help level up stuff faster, rather than getting in the way.

In that case the solution is very simple: Make the forge optional only!.

It's simple, you get to heat and level stuff up like you always did previously. The forge is just a way to level up earlier than you would normally with heat alone.

For example, imagine you're heating a 4* helm, and it's heated at like 50% for the next level, being itself at lvl 6 or something. You could simply do more runs, or you could immediately level it up with the forge. The use itself doesn't change much (you can still get the bonuses), only now you get to use it as an option to level up earlier, rather than being a requirement to do it. That way, champions and vanguards don't have to constantly strive for radiant crystals or anyone else for that matter.

However, considering how fairly fast is to heat stuff up, it would maybe be a good idea for OOO making leveling up a bit harder, by making it like 2 or 3 times longer than before, but not much longer so it doesn't get far too cumbersome, so that the forge and maybe the heat amps get some actual usefulness. Of course I won't blame you for not agreeing on this part, I do understand that, it's just something I thought to balance things out.

I'm sure some people have come up with some suggestions already and I'm kinda late for the party, but I'd like to give mine as well. And so I finish this post by thanking you for reading this wall.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:41

Sandwich-Potato

That's to balance Mist Energy's removal. There's no fee to do a level now, unlike before.

So quit the level and come back after forging/sprite feeding. I'm pretty sure OOO didn't want people to grind FSC all day; Orbs can testify to that. And besides, grinding boss runs is rather boring. How bout this fancy place called the Arcade? inb4Dibsdidit

In that case the solution is very simple: Make the forge optional only!.

How about no.

Not to mention the heat amps are even more useless now!

I heard that they double Sprite appetite replenishing rate. Possibly a fake though.

Mist Energy got in the way. Mist Energy served to be a grindwall. Mist energy was "apparently a way to milk the fanbase". Sane? Who's sane? Me? Hahahahahahahahahahano.

Pretty sure OOO won't consider it unless it's at least 4 times more, and even then, I still think it's too easy.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 00:09

Dibsville

"First, you cannot level up multiple times at once with just heat anymore. That's doesn't look too bothersome at 1st glance when you're leveling up gear, but when you're heating low tier/leveled gear on higher tiers or arenas for example, you'll notice that by the time the gear gets ready to level up, you'll still have like 2/3 of collected heat unused, throwing it to waste."

You're complaining about excess stuff? Isn't this how the Radiant drought started?

"And second, while this is normally not a problem, you cannot level up stuff on boss runs! Why? Because there's no arsenal stations after the 1st level and because of that, once all your stuff is ready to level up, all the immense heat you'll gather will be a waste."

You can leave and re-join the party.

Sorry that the game doesn't hand out free heat? Oh wait it does-- it's called the Arcade.

"Not to mention the heat amps are even more useless now! What's the point of spending a lot of energy on it when you still have to grind the crystals out?"

They're still helpful. They also have a side-effect of making your Sprite's hunger meter refill faster..

"Especially the 5* ones, god knows why OOO thought it would be a good idea to make those crystals drop at depth 28 or shadow lairs only?..."

I honestly don't know why they nerfed it so much when all they had to do was make Shinings drop in all of Stratum 5 instead of making them drop everywhere past Stratum 4...

"The current forge is annoying, only serving to be a grindwall and apparently a way to milk the fanbase (doing it wrong btw, look at the obscene prices of the crystals, no sane knight will ever buy them). It would actually be welcoming and useful if it could be used as a way to help level up stuff faster, rather than getting in the way."

Sorry, but have you noticed how Elevators no longer cost energy? Guess what you had to do prior to the forge? You had to grind for heat too, except you were limited to 10 (maybe 11 depending on how long you took, you may regain 10 more Mist by the time you were done) runs per day.

"In that case the solution is very simple: Make the forge optional only!."

Yeah, okay, no. I actually support the forge with the advent of free elevators. The only annoyance is the fact that an average player can't get Radiants for the life of them. If they fix the Radiant problem, the forge would be fine, but too bad that doesn't seem to be on their list of important updates right now even though people are crying (and in some cases, quitting) about it.

I honestly don't even understand your suggestion. From what I'm getting, you want to make it even worse than it already is right now, so -1 I guess???

EDIT: "inb4Dibsdidit"
-Sandwhich-Potato
/sad

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:12

Amnimonus

Easier solutions

Solution: Forge bypass usable (coming in 1 day and 7 day versions)
It could either
Bypass the forge and make you level up just like in the old days (you lose possible bonus like double level up or forge prize boxes but you can level up a low level gear multiple times)

It could remove the cost from forge to zero crystals (you have to forge it, so no multiple level up but it wont cost any crystal so you can still get forge bonuses)

Other solution: Make methods (rare areas like treasure vault, or rare enemies that provide lot of crystals) that provide lots of crystals.

Fire crystal lumber: A lumber made of a giant fire crystal, after taken certain amount of damage it will drop random fire crystals (similar to punkinking dropping tokens)
fire crystal minerals: a giant mineral/fire crystal which break into a bunch of fire crystals

other solution: drop the mineral price, seriously even if they were half off that would still be expensive. At first it may seem cheap when you forge the first few times when forge cost 3-12 but when the cost get to 80-100 its to much literally for a five star weapon to level up to 10 it cost more than what you can buy it for at the supply depot.

other solution: lessen the amount of fire crystals need for forge

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:14

Dibsville

"Other solution: Make methods (rare areas like treasure vault, or rare enemies that provide lot of crystals) that provide lots of crystals."

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Shadow_Lair#Firestorm_Citadel

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:17

Amnimonus

@ Dibsville

I meant rare area that are free to access lets say for example an even rarer version of the treasure vault that you can randomly fall in in place of a regular treasure vault?

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 04:48

Megawatt-King

@Sandwich-Potato

>That's to balance Mist Energy's removal. There's no fee to do a level now, unlike before.
You mean elevator costs, right? I'll admit that the forge is better than that crap, but just like the EC it just gets in the way. Heat bonus is practically useless since it only lasts a level and while the boxes are good, the chance of getting them is really low and you require a lot of crystals (not really a problem on early levels though). The double lvl up is nice, but not as great when heating low tier stuff on higher tier levels, where a good level or two could double or even triple level up the same gear.

>So quit the level and come back after forging/sprite feeding. I'm pretty sure OOO didn't want people to grind FSC all day; Orbs can testify to that. And besides, grinding boss runs is rather boring. How bout this fancy place called the Arcade? inb4Dibsdidit
What if the person is playing solo on boss runs? He cannot return once he leaves, as far as I know.
Arcade is nice, but most levels don't heat as fast as the boss stages of the same stratum. Plus, I'm against the arsenal stations since they casualized the arcade and made the normal damage only weapons nearly worthless, but I'll leave it for some other time.

>How about no.
How about yes.

>I heard that they double Sprite appetite replenishing rate. Possibly a fake though.
It's actually true, but considering how slow is to heat the sprites in normal levels, it's barely noticeable. With the money you would spend on it, you could buy lots of food at the AH.

>Mist Energy got in the way. Mist Energy served to be a grindwall. Mist energy was "apparently a way to milk the fanbase". Sane? Who's sane? Me? Hahahahahahahahahahano.
You mean elevator costs again, right? Sane perhaps, but you must be naive to think the forge isn't that either. Afterall, you do consider as a way to "balance" the EC removal. I admit it's not as bad, but it's still pretty annoying and prone to abuses like the radiant drought.

>Pretty sure OOO won't consider it unless it's at least 4 times more, and even then, I still think it's too easy.
As long it's not too harsh, it will still be better than the current forge.

@Dibsville
>You're complaining about excess stuff? Isn't this how the Radiant drought started?
I'm not complaining about the excess heat, I'm complaining about how the forge gets in the way and doesn't let you use the rest. lrn2readingcompehension.

>Sorry, but have you noticed how Elevators no longer cost energy? Guess what you had to do prior to the forge? You had to grind for heat too, except you were limited to 10 (maybe 11 depending on how long you took, you may regain 10 more Mist by the time you were done) runs per day.
I know that, but just because you got rid of a large turd that doesn't mean you can replace it with a smaller one. As I said before, forge was completely unnecessary and it only serves as a burden atm.

>Yeah, okay, no. I actually support the forge with the advent of free elevators. The only annoyance is the fact that an average player can't get Radiants for the life of them. If they fix the Radiant problem, the forge would be fine, but too bad that doesn't seem to be on their list of important updates right now even though people are crying (and in some cases, quitting) about it.
Honestly I don't see any proper reason why would you want another thing to get in your way. And it's because of that radiant problem that I don't like the forge - it can be easily abused. If they made it optional and the heating perhaps a bit more grindy instead, it wouldn't be so bad, at least we could heat our stuff anywhere. But with the current state we have to go to depth 28 or at shadow lairs just so we can get a glance at those radiants. Less freedom for us.

>I honestly don't even understand your suggestion. From what I'm getting, you want to make it even worse than it already is right now, so -1 I guess???
I think you didn't read this line properly:
"It's simple, you get to heat and level stuff up like you always did previously. The forge is just a way to level up earlier than you would normally with heat alone."
What I'm saying is to use the forge as a level up shortcut rather than a toll booth. How in the world is this worse than the current forge? You explain me that...

The rest see above.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 05:52

Sandwich-Potato

Let's say there's a diehard gamer called Greg. He plays SK for hours everyday, has a few hundred Eternal Orbs, a few dozen Elite Orbs, and has bought every one-time pack release ever. Suddenly, his hours of gaming with his like 31 level 10 4* stuff can be upgraded to level 10 5* stuff in a few runs. He levels them up, complains about how easy everything is and how there's nothing to do, regardless of difficulty, and quits.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 07:01

Megawatt-King

Sandwich-Potato

1 - Grinding doesn't make the game difficult, just tedious.
2 - Difficulty is meant to be directly on the monsters, not on the progress, thing that has been made worse for the last few years on the former part.
3 - Justifying unnecessary grinding to "lengthen" the game is dumb and will only annoy people into quitting.
4 - As soon as someone beats Vana and the shadow lairs, you have pretty much beaten the game. That's how much endgame content there is.

Of course there's always the coliseum, but the bomberman knockoff is dead and no sane person will try out lockdown more than once because of its absurd imbalance.

Greg leaves because the game is too casual for him and there's nothing else to do but to turning vanaduck's buttcheeks into golden hedgehogs, not because he didn't need to grind the whole arsenal out (although his sense of accomplishment might be inexistent because he bought his progress out like mad, but that doesn't mean it should take forever to grind, otherwise it wouldn't be worth it).

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 08:02

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

Justifying unnecessary grinding to "lengthen" the game is dumb and will only annoy people into quitting.

it's also what every single MMO out there does. and guess what? they are still grinding. unless you want newbies to blaze through the content and get bored by endgame in a week, the forge must stay.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 10:58

#10

Megawatt-King

Thunder-The-Bright

Okay, so it won't likely make them quit, unless its really that bad. However, it can still be really annoying if it's unreasonable.
Plus, the radiant drought is only holding back endgame players, which makes no sense.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:17

#11

Fangel

The forge is great

The lack of radiant fire crystals is not.
The forge slows down players, as the mission system pushes them ahead so quickly. It's only mandatory to have one five star set of gear, and once you are a defender elite you practically have full access to the game. Three Rings should make earlier crystals harder to acquire - early gameplay should have a slower pace and end game should be action based. The journey to haven is the hook to catch players, but should be slower to progress than end game equipment once reaching town square.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:24

#12

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

in fact the problem is not the forge but radiant droprates, which have nothing to do with the forge itself. if radiants were in place I'm sure that there wouldn't be so many threads on the forge.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:43

#13

Megawatt-King

@Fangel Reducing the drop

@Fangel
Reducing the drop rate of crystals in early game will do nothing, since you can upgrade weapons at any level at that point.

@Thunder-The-Bright
I'm annoyed at that too, but I was already expecting something like this when the forge came out.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 13:55

#14

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

you expected an halt in the progress of the players in the game, presumably because of $$$? it's suicide. it's the most useless, backlashing thing they could ever do to the forge.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 14:40

#15

Megawatt-King

@Thunder-The-Bright You

@Thunder-The-Bright
You better believe it. f2p devs will always have some sort of trick to churn out some more of that short term money players have.

I remember when they made the KoA mission payout so ludicrous it inflated the CE price to literally over 9000! Not even arcade's FSC could give you as much loot. They of course undid the thing due to a lot of complaining, but it was pretty obvious that they did it on purpose so they could get some green from the knights stuck on tier 2.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 15:01

#16

Dibsville

Sorry that you're having trouble with the game, let's just remove the whole point of the Forge because you want to be hand-fed everything in the game instead of it having at least a small amount of difficulty.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 15:08

#17

Fangel

Not at three star

Sure it might not be "early" anymore, but regardless we need the game to start slower and pick up the pace as the story progresses. The huge buildup to firestorm citadel means nothing if you spend 75% of the time specifically on gear instead of exploration and learning how the AI works. Players honestly aren't prepared when they reach rank 9-4 (or whatever rank the king of ashes mission is on) purely from the missions... Had they slowed down on gear progression and worked on other important things, they would be prepared.

The forge works to slow players down while they still plow through the missions. It hurts end game a little bit, but not all that much - our radiant drought is the harm there. Honestly, if the missions were longer or the arcade was required, then we would have no need for the forge... I'd still like it to be around though.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 15:46

#18

Megawatt-King

:^)

@Dibsville
Nice argument.

@Fangel
Nobody really needs much time to git gud at spiral knight's PvE, it's more of a matter of getting proper gear. I actually struggled to beat the RJP when I got there 1st time, but it wasn't because I didn't know how enemies behaved (it's not different at all from T1), it's because I was undergeared with full 3* cobalt. When I came back with my set fully heated, I was kicking jelly butt a lot more efficiently with far less deaths than before.

The AI and enemy patterns are mostly easy to understand and I'm sure as hell that the wheels and lava were the biggest reason newbies die there. Not to mention the zombies were considerably nerfed, making FSC really easy. So I still don't see why the forge is needed at all for the player.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 17:14

#19

Sandwich-Potato

Alright, there's nothing to try and improve on in the game now with no Forge. Now what?

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 17:35

#20

Megawatt-King

Uh... We keep playing it as

Uh... We keep playing it as we always did?

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 21:17

#21

Poomph

Sometimes I feel like the Arcade gets much less attention than it deserves.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 21:33

#22

Fehzor

I'm not going to read all of the comments, but I saw a great idea for the forge kind of like this. And it went something like--

Step One: Forge is optional. Using fire crystals just heats gear a lot quicker.
Step Two: Gear takes marginally longer to heat. Like 5-10 times longer, such that heating gear still takes the same amount of time (compared to with the forge+finding crystals).

I thought that this was genius. It fixes so much with so little.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 23:13

#23

Akuryo

o....o)

hmm how bout make excess heat usable like it could crystallize into fire crystals? there isnt a prob with the forge, it's the drought. basically when players get to expanding their gear, a huge "pay me" sign blocks their way or are given the option of endlessly grinding vana for a radiant or two

idk bout crystallizing heat but it could work. maybe? idk ... dont really have much thought to it

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 04:09

#24

Megawatt-King

:^)

@Fehzor
That's what I'm pretty much trying to say in a nutshell. Though I still don't think it should be that hard to heat stuff, otherwise it would take forever to heat a whole set and god knows how often crystals would drop if this was implemented (if they would even drop at all).

@Akuryo
The idea's doesn't sound bad, but it doesn't fix the two "level up" problems I've mentioned.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 06:31

#25

Akuryo

o....o)

right, i actually understood it better with Fehzor's summary ... guess i have poor comprehension .... anyway, +1 if that's the case

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 13:22

#26

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

For Fehzor's idea to work, it should take a long time to heat stuff up, and I think x10 is a fair amount compared to 6342ce.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 14:55

#27

Megawatt-King

:^\

@Usevnsevnsixfivfor
I think you're underestimating how long it takes to heat something, specially if it's a whole tier 3 set. Yes, FSC gives a buttload of heat, but the amount of time it should take shouldn't be accounted for that place only.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 16:14

#28

Dibsville

"I think you're underestimating how long it takes to heat something, specially if it's a whole tier 3 set. Yes, FSC gives a buttload of heat, but the amount of time it should take shouldn't be accounted for that place only."

Bahahaha.

Would you like to know how many 5* items I've made in the past weak? (spoiler: 5).

Here's a short list:
Mercurial Demo Helm
Mercurial Demo Suit
Triglav
Callahan
Electron Vortex

Now, while I won't be able to heat any of them, these only took about an hour and a half each to get from their 2*/3* to their 5*. I don't know about you, but getting heat is plenty fast enough as is from my experience, so I don't see how they are "underestimating how long it takes to heat something".

If anything, U77654 makes a great point.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 17:26

#29

Megawatt-King

Dibsville

And let me guess, you heated them one at a time and on FSC, right?

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 17:38

#30

Sandwich-Potato

Knowing Dibs, he heated them all at once and in the Arcade.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 19:13

#31

Dibsville

"Knowing Dibs, he heated them all at once and in the Arcade."

Actually, I did. I did it in about 3 runs.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 19:37

#32

Poomph

Heating is the same as ever. The problem is that most people's heat goes to their battle sprite, so they think that the game gives less heat now. To avoid this you could just keep your battle sprite's heat full while heating, or just unequip it.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 20:11

#33

Amnimonus

+1 for 10x heat requirement

More heat need to level up a weapon seem fine but then think the heat amp might need a buff so that it still seem useful to buy,(make it more convenient so that there can be incentives for buying and using ce), maybe make offer triple or 4 time heat.

That and/or forge could be only required at important levels such as 5 and 10 so you only have to forge your weapon twice rather than 10 times, would cost more fire crystal though.

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 20:31

#34

Akuryo

o....o)

@Poomph it is not the same as ever, the previous heating system didnt involve crystals and can level up as it reaches max heat. now it requires crystals to level up gear once reaching max heat, it wouldnt really be a problem but OOO decided to nerf radiant drops to the ground (and by ground i mean core/shadow lairs where they now migrated and live as natives along with the swarm). this thread proposes to make heating require about 10x more heat to max/level up gear as before and have the forge system be optional if one wants a faster way to heat stuff.

basically we're defining fire crystals as crystallized heat which is super dense that is now in solid state.

also id like to suggest that we be given the option to put x amount of crystals that would yield an equivalent amount of heat.

if this suggestion were to be implemented, they need to lower the drop rates of fire crystals by a bit (emphasize "bit") and make radiants drop on the whole Stratum 6 (not only depth 27/28 and deeper)

Sat, 02/01/2014 - 21:03

#35

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

@^ Your suggestion has been added to my post.

I think every star level should have more space between max heat and no heat, like this:
0-2* weapons: current rates for these of each star level
3* weapons: x2.5 of current rates for three star gears
4* weapons: x5 of current rates for four star gears
5* weapons: x10 (or 12.5x) of current rates for five star gears

The forge would be optional and putting the current rates of fire crystals (max amount only) will level the item up and have a chance of current forge bonuses. Fire crystals would drop in pairs instead of trios because of this. Radiants would also have a fair chance in dropping on D24-26. To balance this, some fire Greavers would be added to the most southwest and southeast room of D25 FSC. Two Fireguts would join in on the battle right before Vanapuke and the arena in D24 right below the treasure boxes. Why is this relevant, you may ask. This is relevant because the mass farming this would add to the already massive FSC grinding, and two hard monsters that fit in would balance things out a LITTLE BIT MORE.

Heat amps should sell for less (only 700ce for two day, 1400ce for 7 day, 4200ce for 30 day) and have the same effects. To balance this, pets will not gain appetite faster with a heat amp active compared to no heat amp active.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 11:39

#36

Megawatt-King

heh.

Seeing the posts I guess you people are liking the idea, though honestly making heating 10x slower is too much. 3-5x top and it would be okay, I guess.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:25

#37

Sandwich-Potato

3-5 times is still too little, in my opinion. And no, I do not have a bunch of level 10 5* gear. Only one. 7 might be good, though still a little short.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 18:15

#38

Megawatt-King

Sandwich-Potato I really

Sandwich-Potato
I really think you (and some more people) are really underestimating the time it would take to heat a whole set with that much grind. I don't understand you guys, why would you want to make heating a bloody chore? We have orbs for that already. Honestly, I'm starting to think the forge should get ridden of instead.

And no, grinding isn't going to make the game "harder", I already explained that.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 19:04

#39

Sandwich-Potato

Considering how much I play SK, I'm pretty sure I'll be making my level 10 4* stuff into level 10 5* stuff in a week, tops, if it's 2-3*.

I never said grinding makes the game harder, but it at least provides a goal to achieve, as opposed to having max everything on everything in a month and sitting on your butt bored. Almost all free multiplayer games have grinding; it's the only way to stay in business that they can think of.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 20:07

#40

Megawatt-King

Sandwich-Potato The game

Sandwich-Potato
The game barely has enough content worthy to last a month. Maybe they should work on something more worthwhile for the players, other than the gun update? New game modes like a survival mode, for example, where you and your team mates have to last as long as possible without dying while fighting waves after waves of enemies. That alone would increase considerably the re-playability of the game, even when the player reaches endgame.

Balancing the arsenal would not only make lockdown more enjoyable, but would also incentive players to collect all weapons because it would actually be worth the effort o collecting them for different playstyles rather than just for bragging and still keep using the same top ones over and over.

And of course, small, but unique twists amongst different levels, like the Candlestick Keep's grimalkins & candles, or even special missions where you can use the same classes as lockdown (people would really love that, I can already tell). And there's still more ideas from my head, all of which can help expand the game without making people grind, or making it more interesting and less repetitive so it can hold the players for longer.

Which by the way, I'd rather spend a whole month being able to collect 10 or more different weapons rather than spending two weeks working on just a weapon or two. Less grinding is actually good because you're less likely to be burnt out than you would if you played for much more time, or at least that's how I feel. And if you're burnt out, you're most likely to quit. The fact that the game lacks content, I repeat, doesn't help at all.

Grinding has always been a bad thing, and it shouldn't be used because the game lacks actual "substance" that keeps the players in - it's bad game design, and that keeps them away. Content and diversity keeps the players in, not grinding.

I don't know much about this, but IMHO if they want to be successful, they need to keep things fair and equal amongst people who are able to spend the money and those who don't. Some of those people who do have money will only spend it on games where such equality exists IE any decent game that only has a cosmetic cash shop (like DOTA 2). That fairness also involves progress rate. Some people refuse to spend money if it's made too slow, with the intent of making them spend money for boosters or something like that because they quickly assume it as a cash grab. Most f2p games do this mistake or worse and they usually don't last very long or have very small communities as far as I know.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 21:30

#41

Akuryo

o....o)

yup, more content needed. right now theyre just delaying people from expanding their gear through radiant drought. i dont mind playing SK even if i do get all the gear as long as there is something to look forward to when playing.

right now the main driving incentive for players is gear. mostly to show off? idk. gear determines your stature not really your skill. and to get gear you need crowns. and crowns are abundant where? in Vana's crib of course, where vanguards raid and party with Vana til dawn .... which leaves the arcade deserted or not that explored because there is not much to explore nor is there much reward for doing so (besides getting mats FSC doesnt have and boss recipes)

once this gets solved (idk how .. more content and story maybe?) SK will be a tad bit closer to being an ideal game in itself. SK has much potential but getting things done arent so easy (3O's team is small etc etc...) which means slow progress

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 05:17

#42

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

@Megawatt

3-5x is too little and it always will be. Post #35 is a fair system for beginners, veterans, and OOO so that heat amps are used more, newbs (not noobs) don't stress about heat, and vanguards have something REASONABLE to do, and might even shell out a heat amp or some Fire Crystals.

Another problem is that heating in the Rescue Camp is completely limited to mission rewards atm. This would fix it.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 05:57

#43

Megawatt-King

Akuryo

They aren't stopping players from getting more weapons, they are just making them near impossible to level cap them without using irl money.

Have you even seen someone carrying a BAB in every single run? Or a catalyzer? Or some other "hipster" weapon? You can very rarely see that because there are weapons that are much better and fun to use than those, and most people only use the better ones because of that. Most players, including myself, collect "hipster" weapons for collectionism - you try to get 100% of all gear, but you only get to use like 10% of those 100% regularly.

And while it's true gear > skill at most cases, I heavily despise it. Games should be more of a matter of skill, not how good your stuff really is (that doesn't mean it should be irrelevant), and for that the arsenal needs to be as balanced as possible and all monsters actually being able to put a fight regardless of which weapons players use, instead of half of them being cannon fodder.

The FSC farming is a different problem, it has to do with with payout imbalance. FSC levels give much more money for the difficulty it has than any other level in the clockworks. It's around 8-10K + 3K in tokens for every full run, while a run on the same stratum on regular levels doesn't even give half as much, and it could be swarmed with tougher compound or fiend levels or even both. Arenas, in the other hand, are a good example of fair payout. It can give a lot of money, but you actually have to fight for it, and an unprepared party will easily get killed if they get too greedy (unless they git gud). If FSC was much, much harder, it would be more likely for players to go on arcade instead (though the most skilled ones would dare to continue farming there, but hey, at least it would be more fair!).

It's fair enough that the OOO dev team is small and can't add up stuff quickly though. But dragging out content is still not justifiable because of that.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 06:08

#44

Megawatt-King

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Dragging out content is rarely reasonable, and it never is if it's for the sake for making people purchase boosters (cash grabbing and all). I just said 3-5x for the sake of being nice for the devs. Plus, the orbs already drag the player long enough. We don't need something else to slow us down even further.

I don't know about the rescue camp (I just blazed through the missions, as they kept giving me items), but it's certainly not the only place where you have limited crystals - when trying to heat 4* gear while you're only at Knight Elite rank, specifically.

Your idea is alright, but the amount of time required to heat stuff might be too much.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 06:46

#45

Atlas-Snowcap

---

I agree that the forge needs to be an optional feature, not a necessity. As Megawatt-King and Fehzor said, I would keep the forge as a method of heating gear faster and rolling the dice for level skips/prize boxes, but just slow down the progress of gear heating without the use of the forge.

In this way, although a lot more heat will be required to level up, none of it will go to waste if an arsenal station isn't present.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 07:15

#46

Akuryo

o....o)

yep, SK has balance issues (monsters, weps and armor stats, level payouts, even connection to faraway clients like me (ok, so connection isnt a balance issue but the game has major probs/issues) .. etc)

im not saying the drought's stopping anyone though. it just serves as a giant wall with a "pay me or grind" sign ... which is kinda sad.

it's a given fact that skill has little effect compared to what gear you have in dealing with monsters and or level survival ... and idk if this will ever be fixed

this is sort of derailing the thread so ill just stop. /sorry

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 13:05

#47

Sandwich-Potato

You DO know that OOO isn't all focused on Spiral Knights, right? It has a bunch of other games, and a reallllllly small staff. They're not going to update as fast as other F2P MMO's, and even those MMO's have a lot of grinding while they work on updates.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 13:47

#48

Atlas-Snowcap

@Sandwich-Potato

Yeah, we understand this completely, but this IS the suggestion forums. People can suggest what they like, and others can hypothesise on whether it'd make a nice addition or not. I don't think anyone expects the changes to be instantaneously applied, even if they get picked up on at all.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 14:06

#49

Sandwich-Potato

The thing is, proposing to almost remove grinding entirely is just suicide to the game. Which is what making the Forge optional with only 3-5x more heat is.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 14:25

#50

Atlas-Snowcap

@Sandwich-Potato

People would still need to grind for crowns and materials, and the slower heating process would still require a fair amount of work. That said, I see your point, and I propose that gear would perhaps cap at level 5 until it was forged, enabling it to move onto level 6 and beyond. The issue with the forge at the moment is that a lot of the time it doesn't feel like the grind is progressing you anywhere.

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Few suggestions to improve the forge