Handgun balance issues
Sun, 05/29/2011 - 23:04
Please read:
This thread is here to collect useful balance issues relating to handguns. Posting balance issues requires a specific format outlined below. Posts detailing a balance issue not using the outlined format will be deleted. We want to keep this clean so that it's easy for us to parse.
Secondly, we want to get feedback from experienced players who believe they have an understanding of the item they are describing. Please do not post with knee-jerk reactions to using an item. Once you feel as though you have a grasp of the item and feel there is a balance issue, we welcome your feedback.
Please use the following format:
Handgun Name
Summary: A one sentence summary of the balance issue.
Followed by a detailed description. Try to be as specific as possible.
Example:
Gatling Gun
Summary: The Gatling Gun's standard attack stun-locks all monsters.
The standard attack from the gatling gun causes monsters to repeatedly flinch, allowing them to be stun-locked indefinitely. This is less noticeable with a group of monsters, but one on one nothing can stop it.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 01:57
#2
Uh. Huh. Well, I'll give it
Uh. Huh. Well, I'll give it a go. Just hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here :P
The Entire Handgun Arsenal
Summary: Fails to match up to the other two forms of specialization in any definitive way.
Before we go too far, I'd like to know the Dev's point of view on the role of the handgun. Since at the moment I'm not sure of the goal, for now I'll stick with my own observations.
As Ranged DPS: As a damage weapon, almost all guns have less comparable firepower to either swords or bombs. Guns have very little effective AoE and their damage is low compared to swords. A un-augmented character with a gun may be lucky to kill a single creature in a given room before the swordsmen mop up the rest. Since the Increased Atk Spd grants about a 20% speed increase at maximum, I would guess that even that would be incapable of decreasing the gap between the two Specs. The only gun witnessed to be a match damage-wise is the Autogun line, but this must be dealt close range, with the inherent disadvantages of several handguns (immobilization, low combo, long animation, reload time, and few shield-cancel opportunities) and almost completely defeats the purpose of using a gun.
As Ranged Utility: The handgun usefulness as a Utility-Survival weapon is, unfortunately, diminished for several reasons. While strafing is quite effective, most handguns have a low clip size, resulting in elongated strafe times that reduce speed, and, again, few shield-cancel opportunities. In fact, a bomber has so much more mobility and crowd control, that wielding a gun is more of an after-thought. Worse, specializing in guns gives no real benefit to the player in this role, as a un-augmented character utilizes the guns survival capabilities nearly as efficiently. Finally, floor effects and other methods of mobility reduction hinder the gunslinger far more than any other.
Almost any specialization or combination of specializations is better off using gear from the Sword or Bomb specs, making the pure gunslinger the only character to gain full benefit from this gear. Even then, he sacrifices crowd control in the form of the knockback/lockdown that keeps large numbers of enemies at bay, and the lack of resists on his armor. Since few guns have the range to truly keep enemies at a safe distance, the prevalence of projectiles and 'leaping' enemies puts a gunner in almost as much danger of being hit as a bomber or swordsman, making that lack of resists especially deadly.
I would like to stress that this is not intended to bash gunners, as I believe guns should be a viable specialization. I have nothing but respect for those that take this route, as there is much love for the style, and the advantages it already has makes it very appealing. I simply feel that the mechanics as well as weapons/gear do not support the gunner in his tasks in an appreciably balanced way.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:14
#3
I've made threads about item
I've made threads about item balance as whole before, but I suppose some better explanations based on type can't hurt.
Summary: Charge attacks aren't worth using
I've been a gunner for a while, I primarily played as a gunner in my first preview and during the beta.
My issue is that now, guns are relegated just to normal attacks, mostly for chip damage to lead in to sword strikes or purely just status based utilities.
This diminishes their worth quite a lot, especially when compared to swords with ranged attacks.
The issue itself is mostly that Gun Charge Attacks can sometimes conflict or counteract each other on certain guns.
Like the Antigua being rooted in place but not getting extra range, or the Cryotech Alchemer freezing and then unfreezing enemies because of the ricochet.
This makes them considerably less viable, as they require space that just isn't there, or even just a single target.
Swords are better at both close combat and single target damage.
Some people even preferring just outright Increased Attack Speed on their guns because they don't use charge attacks.
I'm not sure if this is an intended design decision, but it does seem to be quite a negative aspect to guns.
During the Preview, when the Silversix just fired an Eagle for a charge attack and the Magnus didn't stun on a charge attack, the game felt more balanced. Now it feels like guns are being intentionally gimped to push the game more towards swordplay and I don't think that is intended either.
This, coupled with the fact you need to reload after every charge attack, makes them even harder to use and more unforgiving, in an environment designed to diminish their usefulness, makes them very under appreciated weapons.
Summary: Standing in place is too punishing.
This one is also something I carried over from the Preview.
Right now, guns seem to feel like they are being gimped, because they offer a big advantage in terms of range.
Being able to put a zone of death around your character by equipping your gun shouldn't be easy.
But here I find that being rooted in place often ruins some weapons, making them flat out unusable.
The Autogun series, often finding itself an afterthought when it comes to choosing guns.
And while I don't think it is unfair that you have to stand still while firing, being able to rotate while firing an Autogun would significantly increase it's usefulness and viability.
It's much the same for other guns, like the Magnus. Where you have a limited ammo capacity and are punished with being rooted on the spot while you reload.
And while it is easy to get around this issue, by simply not firing the last shot and waiting, I'm sure that is not an intended mechanic for guns.
My solution would be to add some kind of Reload Speed stat to guns or something, that increases as they level up.
This way higher level guns would be less punishing as a reward for using them.
Or perhaps it could be an armor option or something else.
Maybe you could just change this mechanic on guns as a whole.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:21
#4
Feedback
@shoebox & ohgodmyhead,
You guys are both right about guns not being useful enough. If someone shows up on my team with sword based armor and 5* swords i think, 'oh good he'll be helpful'. If someone shows up with bomb armor and is dropping 5* bombs i think, 'oh good, he'll be helpful'.
...
If someone shows up wearing gun armor and holding a 5* gun i think, 'i hope that's costume armor and he has some swords and bombs under that cloak'.
:(
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:47
#5
Shoebox
* My solution would be to add some kind of Reload Speed stat to guns or something, that increases as they level up.
This way higher level guns would be less punishing as a reward for using them.
Or perhaps it could be an armor option or something else. *
An idea for guns would be that you have to press fire again to reload, if your just spam clicking then it wouldnt effect you in away, but if you charge attack it allows you to shield, get safe, reload.
On the whole, I agree guns are underpowered, but I like them. Gunners seems to become more support units, reviving fallen team mates.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:53
#6
An idea for guns would be
An idea for guns would be that you have to press fire again to reload, if your just spam clicking then it wouldnt effect you in away, but if you charge attack it allows you to shield, get safe, reload.
I thought of that, but I don't think they can check how many bullets are in a gun.
I think it might just work based on how many clicks, like a sword combo, which is why stopping shooting before the last attack resets it without reloading.
But if something like that was possible, I would definitely prefer it to what we have now.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 03:22
#7
I agree that a reload stat
I agree that a reload stat would be good for guns (also speed UVs could maybe affect it).
@ohgodmyhead However, I also think guns are lower damage due to being lower risk. Stand at a distance in relative safety compared to swords, and no required charge time like bombs. Not sure they need to be buffed as a whole, just tweaked here and there, like that reloading mentioned above.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 09:18
#8
@gell Yes it's a little lower
@gell Yes it's a little lower risk, but as I stated, not necessarily by much, and bombers have similar low risk capabilities. Lower damage and no knockback also means you need room and freedom to move, which isn't always an option, especially in FSC. Keep in mind that faster killing means safety too, and the longer you spend dancing around, the higher chance you'll make a mistake.
Not only that, as a Bomber/Utility gunner, when swordsmen charge into the fight, the knockback often makes bombing pointless, which leaves me in the back, picking away with my gun, while the others are up front doing all the work. Makes me feel like a jerk.
I'd like to reiterate though, my main argument isn't that guns are 'necessarily' bad. It's that there's no reason to specialize, because they fall short of both proposed roles, and their gear fails to compensate for that.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 12:02
#9
All Guns
All Guns
summary: What everyone else said + monster dodging/shielding
I'd like to comment a bit about monsters dodging/shielding projectiles (specifically mecha knights and wolvers that dig). Digging monsters and shielding monsters effectively destroy all of a gunner's already limited potential. Shooting at a digging wolver just doesn't work unless you're solo without a sword or bomb and all you can do is shoot it. Shielding monsters are not as bad as digging ones since their shield does go down for at least 1 clip, but it's still a huge disadvantage just like digging monsters. Both of these projectile negating skills annoy the rest of the party just as much as it does the gunner and makes people discriminate against gunners even more. Regular dodging is acceptable because a good gunner can learn to fire ahead or compensate in some way for it, but digging monsters and shielded monsters are impossible to compensate for. These skills are way overbalanced and shouldn't represent such a huge disadvantage to partied and solo gunners unless there's 2 skills equally disadvantageous toward swordsmen and bombers.
Now about what everyone else said: gunners appear to be a bit disadvantaged. Perhaps there's a more elegant solution to this than bringing all the guns up to the level of swords and bombs. In a lot of MMOs there's classes which are disadvantaged in the beginning but become even stronger in the end game because players were willing to stick with a weaker class. This is the idea of rewards for effort. Going with an average class in the beginning will give you an average end character while going with a weak/disadvantaged class in the beginning will give you a stronger end character. Of course giving too much of an advantage to gunners would just make everyone become a gunner which wouldn't be cool so there needs to still be balance. I would suggest giving gunners an end game advantage that's not damage. Something like additional range or very fast firing would be more balanced.
Oh right also, why don't we sticky the three weapon balance threads?
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 14:57
#10
@Shinko *sigh* sad but true.
@Shinko *sigh* sad but true. Once the wolvers gain their evade-teleport, they pretty much become un-gunnable, as they teleport en masse to your location, hindering your mobility, as well as vision. In fact, since they can even teleport while attacking, sometimes we can't even dodge. On the other hand, I found the teleport/evade/shield effects to be interesting and flavorful, but when added to the already long list of gunner disadvantages, it makes the gunner increasingly unviable.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 18:50
#11
@ Handguns in general
Is it my imagination, but couldn't they at LEAST double the clip sizes on guns and they would still be underpowered? I mean, 2 shots and reload seems very drastic. With the avenger/faust lines the 2-swing heavy sword makes sense. When you look at a 2 hit and vulnerable combo, guns simply don't measure up in utility/damage/or versatility.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 21:20
#12
My experience is mostly
My experience is mostly limited to an Argent Peacemaker and Magma Driver, so I figured I'd ask you gunslingers before making a formalized post about it.
What do you think about the range on handguns in general, right now? I personally think the range is too short across the board (I can understand certain gun types, like autoguns, having comparitively shorter range...but you have to wonder why the DA's charge attack out-distances some guns.)
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 22:05
#13
@Elegies
The only gun I've had a problem with for range is the autogun and pepperbox lines (and with those it's just b/c I can't hit some switches with them, they're more effective at short range anyway). For the others, as long as you're able to fire outside of an enemy's melee attack range that's enough. The callahan is the only gun you can really snipe enemies with (as in shooting them from so far away they don't react or notice you) and it comes with it's own balances. It wouldn't be very fair if every gun allowed the gunner to sit 10 blocks away and shoot.
Despite this, if you choose to push that issue think about what would happen with longer ranges. The shot speed on the antigua line guns, magnus guns, and blitz needle lines is somewhat fast and wouldn't be affected too much by a distance increase, however trying to snipe something 10 blocks away with something that shoots slow moving projectiles like an autogun or an alchemer would be hard to pull off unless it was something like a gun puppy. Also, the way the camera is set up the only direction you can really see a considerable distance ahead is up. The only use the extra long range would have is if you're firing at enemies that are North of you or enemies that are stationary to the side so you can predict their position.
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 23:13
#14
The best gun I've come across
The best gun I've come across for range so far is the Blackhawk. The range of the weapon is nearly that of an enemy turret. This has allowed me to snipe out turrets one by one in relative safety. Most if not all of the other guns either do not have the range or do not have the strafe capability to dispatch them carefully. In addition the range reaches to the edges of the screen left to right, letting me kite Spookats and grievers with less risk. While spookats are generally manageable in closer range, grievers are not. This gives the blackhawk a level of utility not inherent in any other gun I've used, hence my statement about most other guns not having the range to keep enemies at a safe distance.
While I don't feel all guns should be capable of doing this, every block of distance makes a difference, since the closer you are, the more likely you'll be jumped by Gremlins, grievers and wolves, and the closer you'll be to the turret bullets where they're less spread out.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 02:30
#15
@Shoebox:
Seconded. The
@Shoebox:
Seconded. The strength of the gunner is in his ability to be mobile, charge attacks take that away. It allows enemies to get close, and therefor makes the guns useless except for extremely niche situations (just before monsters appear in a danger room).
@ohgodmyhead:
I think that no one would argue that out of the three specialties, pure gunner is the weakest all-around. Swordsmen are tanks, bombers are the glass cannons, and that would mean gunners should be the utility class (from a design perpective) - but they are not. The problem is not the gear itself, as there are specialized armors for each "class".
I'd think that one way to help solve this would be that reload time (and perhaps the charge time) will get the buff from increased attack speed as well (perhaps even double that). It would make gunners be extremely viable as status-casters, making them a welcome addition to any group as a complimentary support force, fixing both issues raised here.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 10:42
#16
Heh, actually what happens is
Heh, actually what happens is the bomber is the tank (low damage except in large mobs, Nitronome chaining or Shivermist Lock), Swordsmen are the DPS, and gunners are the utility...but are not. Heck, I'd say the Shivermist alone does more than any gun could hope to do, I've beaten Vanaduke's first form alone while in a four person party, and Vanaduke barely got a swing. My main point has been that, whatever the weaknesses the gun has ALREADY, his gear fails to support him in his chosen roles to the point that he could honestly declare himself the best for the job. It's a good secondary choice, if only for the versatility, but it's not a good specialization.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 11:44
#17
Nova Driver
Summary: Not useful when held in comparison to the other elemental damaging driver weapons.
Seriously you made 3 weapons that each have a unique status effect, and then an identical weapon that has no extra effect added onto it? At some point I had heard that it did more damage, but still wasn't enough to offset the loss of status, this is unconfirmed by me, as there's no way I am making one as things are (If it has more attack power reflect this in their bars or something?). Anyways, I think that this could be nicely offset by making the shots do less (yes, less) damage, and always splitting into two, like the charge shots of the other driver-class weapons. This would remove a random element from the gun and make it into a fearsome crowd control weapon, as you would be able to accurately place shots and damage entire mobs quite rapidly if you were skilled.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 12:14
#18
My problems with guns can be
My problems with guns can be summarized pretty quickly:
1) As others have mentioned, any gun that makes you have to hold still to fire is just terrible and counter-productive to the point of using a gun.
Solution: Make gunshots slow you, but never make you hold still.
2) Almost every gun's charge attack is suicide in any situation where you might want to use it. The exception to this is the Alchemer series, which does one giant blast and then you're done, but the Autogun line just compounds its regular attack weakness, and the Antigua lines both suffer from a long, drawn out, TOO ACCURATE attack stream. What do I mean by too accurate? Simply that because it is a straight line that cannot be altered once the attack begins, you very rarely will hit the right enemy with all the shots unless they're very slow and big.
Solution: Same as 1, + allow people to pivot while shooting. The charge attacks would be much more useful if you could at least track a moving enemy or strafe while using them. For the Antigua line, consider removing the stream of bullets and just buffing the Owl/Eagle at the end to encompass the entire damage of the charge.
3) Gun unfriendly enemies. Devilites, Wolves and Gremlin all dodge like crazy if you try and shoot them, which makes the already low DPS of a gun laughable compared to just running up and hitting them with a sword. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't also become invincible in the brief second of the dodge: I've been able to track the movement and keep hitting them, but it's frustrating as hell to do it and see no damage done.
Solution: Remove the "invincibility" aspect of the dodge, and put a 5-second cooldown on dodges or teleports.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 18:33
#19
I think for guns, the issue
ALL GUNS
Summary: Increase damage on armor sets not on gun. Trade immobility for more damage!
I think for guns, the issue is simply just damage.
While some say that mobility is a big issue, I think its fine that you are immobile for some guns and certain charge attacks. However, in order to justify the immobility, the charge attacks (like the cutter series) have to do MORE DAMAGE. I think people would trade mobility and survivability for damage.
As for overall damage output, I agree that gun damage output is simply lower than it should be. But to keep specialized gunners unique, you shouldn't be buffing the guns itself, but rather the gunner set. I see that Shadowsun Slicker is a good direction towards this but I don't understand why the bonus is LOW and not at least MEDIUM like its Skolver counterpart. I would go as far as saying that it should be High/High for each piece, summing to Maximum! if a specialize gunner decides to use it. Obviously, you can punish the gunner by reducing survivability on their armor as survivability for a gunner should be in their dodging and kiting skills and not on the armor itself.
I'd imagine a gunner should be using a +high/high damage armor set, swiftstrike shield for attack speed, and CTR/additional bonus damage/even more attack speed to cap out on their gun.
Hail Driver
Summary: Ricochet breaking freeze is bad!
Finally, the issue of Hail Drivers breaking their own freeze should definitely be addressed.
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 20:38
#20
All guns (to emphazie what
All guns (to emphazie what everyone else has said):
They don't fill a role thats needed when you have swords or bombs.
As a gunner I really feel that guns in general need a boost in power, not a gigantic boost, but one that will make them to be worth using. I have a gun that outranks my sword and no matter which tier I'm in and despite the fact I am wearing gunslinging gear I often break down and start slashing things just because guns serve no real purpose other than if your in a really bad position. Even then it's generally better to have a bomb not a gun.
_________________
Counter point @ LastElixir: I agree the prisma tech line needs a boost but I don't think lowering the power would be a good idea, atleast as guns stand now. It would be great to have it split into two everytime, but I feel like the drop in power would hurt it more than help. On the other hand if all guns do get a boost (which they need) I can see it doing slightly less damage for the sake of crowd control as you reccomended. However, even then I would personally like it to do the same amount of damage as it's alchemer brothers, due to the lack of a status effect.
Wed, 06/01/2011 - 04:47
#21
Autogun line
Summary:
Autogun line
Summary: Inability to turn while firing is crippling. Coupled with the long attack animation and immobility-when-firing of the Autogun line, makes these weapons incomparable to equivalent star handguns.
The lacklustre accuracy of the Pepperbox line (and the piercing damage type of the Needleshot line) makes these firearms unsuitable for picking off turrets. The fact that you have to stand still for the entire firing animation of these weapons makes them largely unsuitable for kiting. To me, that says they should be useful in a melee: you should be able to use a needle shot in concert with sword-wielding knights, chipping away at their opponents while staying out of harms way yourself.
If an enemy is nudged even slightly, if it moves, dives, or teleports, the entire barrage is wasted. Apart from the fact that you're just standing there firing at nothing like a doofus, this makes the DPS of the autogun line very low, even in the hands of a very skilled user that lines up their shots and doesn't miss much.
The solution? Keep the immobility. Keep the lower-than-sword damage. Keep the piercing damage on the needleshot, even though everything that's vulnerable to piercing likes to teleport or auto-dodge. I can work with that!
But for the love of god, please let us TURN while firing. Please let us adjust the angle of the burst by 20 degrees mid shot, so that "moving two feet to the left" isn't a winning defense to being shot at with a burst from an automatic weapon. I'm fine with being immobile for seconds at a time, I'm fine with a delay between me pulling the trigger and my gun firing. These are acceptable tradeoffs for being able to fire a stream of projectiles. But not being able to turn mid-shot is desperately unfair, and is making the entire playerbase avoid these awesome guns.
Wed, 06/01/2011 - 05:01
#22
Gunslinger Armor--a detriment
Gunslinger Armor
Summary: UV's are too costly to craft....no 2* entry method.
Almost all weapon-related armors (vog/skolver for swords and demo gear for bombs) have 2* armors as entry points. This allows them to somewhat cost effectively craft for UV's to increase their value and effectivness. It is well-chronicled through the above posts, that gunslingers are already at a strength and effectiveness disadvantage until and unless they get some new buffs, a heavy handed rebalance vs other weapons. But if thats not enough, their specific armor lines is basically the only one that starts at a 3* entry point, making "UV Fishing" virtually impossible. Its just yet another unfairness in the gunslinging world.
Solution: make there a 2* entry point that upgrades into gunslinger gear. I'm sure everyone would gladly pay the extra crafting cost of 2* that has to be upgraded for the tradeoff of being able to access UVs on par with all the other lines of weapons.
P.S. If the gunslingers on here feel this is important, please voice your support/concern on the topic.
Wed, 06/01/2011 - 07:18
#23
@philidor Yeah, this is one
@philidor Yeah, this is one of the issues I've noted since I posted that first comment. Gunslingers have a lot of issues with their equipment, and that's pretty much the start of it. Not only that, then you have lines like the magnus and antigua lines, both considered some of the best handguns for gunners, and both nearly unfarmable.
/support; I may not consider myself a gunslinger exactly, but this is one of the many many reasons I've never tried.
Wed, 06/01/2011 - 11:21
#24
Walletman: My idea for the
Walletman: My idea for the Nova Driver line would make it a (somewhat) poor single combat gun, but make it a fearsome crowd-control weapon. Imagine what you could do if you always had knowledge of how your bullets would ricochet? You could quite easy begin darting in and out of groups, and it would give you a bigger benefit if you were taking the risk of getting surrounded. I think that if something like my suggestion were implemented that a damage nerf would almost be necessary given the greatly increased potential it'll have against mobs. Though really, anything to make one of the cooler looking drivers usable would be fantastic!
Wed, 06/01/2011 - 12:45
#25
LastElixir: Alright I see
LastElixir: Alright I see your point, I was just worried with the history of guns if they nerfed it they would nerf it hard. Making it not usable. I guess as a gunslinger I want more guns to have the ability of a main weapon and the thought of one losing that hurts me (Especially since non have really gained that yet). I do totally see what you mean by moving through the crowds with well angled ricochets blasting away at enemies... it sounds beautiful. I guess it comes down to how effective it would really be, since I havn't worked with alchemers to much I don't have a good say about that. So I'll take your word for it.
Wed, 06/01/2011 - 13:17
#26
Well, as they are, the
Well, as they are, the alchemer/driver weapons fire a shot the will ricochet in a random direction. (Once for MKII, twice for the first driver, etc) and while it is very handy, not being able to aim the ricochet at all makes it a bit sketchy, although it is definitely super nice when things cluster together, or it randomly bounces in a favorable manner. I am not sure if my suggestion is the best fix for the lesser gun of the line, but the point is that an improvement definitely needs to be made!
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 15:04
#27
Antigua and Needleshot lines + Gunslinger equipment
Antigua + Needleshot
Summary: Dodging enemies and split type damage makes guns less useful.
Right now, I feel like the only useful piercing gun is the Magnus line, Callahan being the most useful.
Wolvers dodge much too fast, the Magnus line stunning them making them actually able to be hit, while the needle shot (combined with them dodging) makes them already behind you by the time the bullets reach them, and antigua line bullets are fast enough to catch up to them, but the auto-dodge makes them invincible even if it shows the bullet hit.
Secondly, you stand still for so long on the autogun series that it feels you would be more mobile using a sword (and doing more DPS at that). The only way to get a decent damage is if you are point blank, which would mean a sword is going to be a more obvious choice.
With the antigua series the antigua itself isn't quite bad, but the split damage on the later versions makes it either always bad, or even average at best. This wouldn't be a problem if it had the DPS the Iron Slug or Valiance had, which it doesn't, even counting it's extra shots (being that they all hit of course). Sentenza being especially bad since it can't hit wolvers and misses gremlins most of the time.
Gunslinger Equipment
Summary: Compared to non-gunslinger specialized equipment (resistances and bonuses), it's actually hindering yourself to use them.
My other point is the Gunslinger equipment. Out of all four sets, only one has a positive resist, and it's curse. So far the only time you're worrying about curse is with the charge of the Faust/Gran Faust (a sword), or versing Phantoms, which is rare, short, and far between. Most gunslingers I see don't even bother using a gunslinger specialized set, and if any, they use Nameless because of it's elemental defense, not because of the attack speed increase (which is nearly useless because of reloading). The only other outfit specifically for gunners that is used is Shadowsun, which gains a low attack bonus at the cost of no elemental defense, and negative resists to poison and curse. (Compared to the Skolver which gets medium attack bonus and a Freeze resist.) Not even a single set that has a fire resist, making gunslingers in Firestorm Citadel very vulnerable.
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 15:18
#28
Handgun Name: alchemer
Handgun Name: alchemer series
Summary: not enough dps to be substantially useful
Guns just don't damage enough. I think their damage should b increased, but in return, if u fire when moving accuracy should decrease.
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 16:14
#29
The alchemer series is
The alchemer series is actually one of the stronger gun lines atm. While I agree they still need a buff, they could probably get away with just raising the primary projectile's damage, and leaving the split shots the same. Of course, that still doesn't cover the Shadowtech, but honestly add small daze effect to it and I'd use it.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 01:11
#30
Shadowtech Alchemer
Shadowtech Alchemer series
Summary: Can't hit gremlins
The Shadowtech series should be able to target all enemies weak to shadow damage because it is a specialized gun. It's full potential can never be fully realized if gremlins can easily dodge the bullets. The dodging mechanic on gremlins should only discourage using guns that don't target it's weakness. Currently, the guns are only good against slimes and bad against both fiends and undead. As a result, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 03:37
#31
@philidor
OUCH!!!!
/support
This is one of the very best, and outside the box critiques, i've seen about being a gunslinger. Having to craft for 3* UV's is brutal.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 03:39
#32
Auto-dodge vs gun
Just kinda thinking, it's a gun, shouldn't one of it's strengths be that you CAN'T dodge it? That would go a long ways to giving the gun more utility.
This would work nicely with the idea of using a gun to 'pin down' an enemy so it can't dodge other peoples attacks while you were firing at the mob.
It would make a sword user attacking a wolf/gremlin happy to have a gun user behind him.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 03:42
#33
Guns and Critical Hits
Another way to buff guns (if devs don't want a base buff) would be to make it the only weapon that does 'critical hits' based on % chance. This chance could/should go up dramatically when shooting a mob during the mobs attack animation. A counter-punch, if you will, that again lends support to your teammates.
AND
It would give another useful UV for gunners to try and acquire. Which will work nicely with gunners new 2* equipment entry point, lol.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 07:16
#34
All Handguns
Summary: Guns are all inefficient.
Swords have the highest damage, bombs have a good AoE to make up for the lower damage compared to swords, but guns only have a reloading. Either increasing the bullets, that can be shot without reloading eventually depending on the stars of the gun or unlimiting them, might solve this issue, then guns would have the fastest attack rate. The charge attacks might be even more useless then, id suggest to remove the charge attacks, just like bombs do not have regular attacks.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 13:14
#35
Charge attacks with guns
Charge attacks with guns would be neat if they were set up in such a manner that you could stock a charge on an unequipped weapon (guns only) and then keep fighting with another weapon (including a different gun) and swap out to quickly fire off charge shots at things. This would make it much easier to find a good point to use the not fantastic charge attacks available on guns, and increase gunner DPS by allowing them to have a charge attack every so often without sacrificing time.
This would give gunners the ability to keep their projectiles on the field, while still enabling the use of what are currently pretty mediocre charge attacks in a lot more situations.
EDIT: Nick, I know you're busy, but would you mind sparing a moment to give your thoughts on the various balance issues brought up here? I feel like guns are the weapon type in need of help the most, and knowing that something is being looked at, even if it isn't necessarily any of our suggestions, would be cool! You did make this thread after all.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 21:11
#36
Guns and tactics
I've been a gunner since I started pretty much, so I thought I'd throw my thoughts in the mix :)
First I want to say that it is incredibly hard as a gunner before you get 5 star everything. You might as well get a freeze gun and help people out with stunning the monsters for the rest of the group. The damage you do is nill. Lean on any status effects you can cause to help in battle.
I go with Shadowsun gear and a Swiftstrike shield.
Here's my gun list:
Valiance
Cryo Driver
Mega Magnus
Blackhawk
(I carry 3 guns at a time, swapping the Blackhawk\Magnus\Cryo depending on the mission pack. Valiance is always good for damage)
All guns
Balance - Never charge. Ever. Especially in tier 3. You gota move and kite enemies away from the swordsmen so they can get some backstabs in. That's your job. Then revive them when they get too aggressive :).
Charging before you hit a party button will usually help you lose half your health in tier 3. If you're with bombers, make sure you're all moving clockwise or counter in arenas. It helps a lot.
Valiance
Balance - It gets frustrating when you're fighting a room full of wolves and 1 out of every 10 shots hits... perhaps lessen the invulnerability of the enemy when it dodges gunfire? If I corral the enemy into a corner and keep shooting it, it shouldn't be able to dodge if it can't move.
Cryo Drive
Balance - The two shots per reload is... pretty lame and should be increased to 3 I think, even if the damage goes down. I see enemies freeze, unfreeze, and freeze again. Perhaps just one freeze is enough?:)
Mega Magnus
Balance - Not being able to move while reloading is a bit much. When I use this gun, I only shoot one bullet at a time to avoid reloading. If I don't do this, I take hits. It makes for a tedious battle. Perhaps a damage boost on this type of gun to counter the huge lag time. Especially on the charge. I can't recall a time I would ever use it besides getting a laugh from falling down.
I really like this gun, since the enemies that normally dodge everything else seem to get hit by this more often. That would be another great perk - if they could never dodge this gun!
Blackhawk -
Balance - I just got this gun... so I'll post more later :)
General Gunplay
Balance? - As it stands now, you just have to focus on being versatile (carry at least 3 guns) and being a support character (yes it can be done!) Stay out of the fray as long as possible, and guide enemies away from your major damage dealers. I see a lot of comments against gunners as a whole, but it can be done. Just find an experienced one.
My biggest gripe is against the reloading, but I do think it should stay. Upping all the guns bullet count by 1 would be awesome! Or maybe the charge attack could be changed to reduce reload time for a while? Artifacts/trinkets that reduce reload time or up bullet count?
Anyway, that's what I think
-Blueflood
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 21:47
#37
@damon I don't think any of
@damon I don't think any of us in this thread will say the gun isn't versatile. That's not really the issue. If they're supposed to be DPS, they're worse than both bombs and swords. If they're supposed to be Utility/Support, they have lousy gear. Even if their sole purpose is to get the attention of enemies to keep them away from the dps, a bomber does that perfectly well with bombs and a sidearm. There's simply no POINT to specializing in guns except to challenge yourself. For those of us who don't want to challenge ourselves that way, and just like the concept, it's simply not enough.
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 00:52
#38
@ohgodmyhead
I think their
@ohgodmyhead
I think their idea was to have it so gun's are simply support, since 4 swordsmen on one enemy would be having them compete with eachother with knockback would be a mess, the gunslinger can just sit from behind them to add some damage on top of their's. The problem is that those situations rarely happen, with everyone splitting off to their own enemy group and making the role of the gunslinger limited.
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 05:37
#39
Agreed. My main issue though
Agreed. My main issue though is the gear, and the viability of specialization.
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 14:48
#40
Hope this helps
Handgun Name:
Needle Shot
Summary:
Attack speed uv's
Followed by a detailed description. Try to be as specific as possible.
I have two Needle Shot one with very high attack speed and another with damage against fiend medium. With my justifier hat I receive attack speed increase medium on guns. I equipped the hat to try to see the difference in the attack speed with one of my needle shot's being maximum and the other having medium attack speed increase I noticed very little difference.
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 16:11
#41
Njthug: Each "level" of IAS
Njthug: Each "level" of IAS is only 4%, and there are only six levels. So you'll only ever attack 24% faster than normal, and the differences between levels are quite small.
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 16:50
#42
Any word on what's happening
Any word on what's happening with all this information, yet?
Seems like a waste to make three threads about weapon balance and not give any feedback or information about it.
Also: I talked about the invincibilty frames during dodging a while back and I was told that monsters don't have any.
So I guess it's teleport/damage number lag or something, because I have been able to (albeit inconsistently) hit monsters who were dodging using the Pepperbox and Antigua before.
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 19:58
#43
Name: Antigua line
Summary:
Name: Antigua line
Summary: No on hit effect
Description: The other gun lines all have on hit effects. The alchemers have the status effects (well, most of them) and they ricochet. The Magnus lines have their knockdown. Althought the blaster lines don't have an on hit effect, they do have the advantage of 3 shots. So surely, the anitgua lines, supposedly the best gun line, as they cost 25 JK Tokens, should have some sort of on hit effect?! My suggestion is a small flinch for the monsters that are hitby the shot
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 23:45
#44
More Complaints
All Guns
Summary: CUTTING GRASS needs to be easier, DEAD MONSTERS shouldn't be obstacles, and shots don't seem to hit MOVING TARGETS
After running through 2 terminal runs in CW with just guns I remembered a couple things that were obnoxiously annoying about being a pure gunslinger. One was that cutting grass requires way more effort than it should. Right now in order to cut grass with a gun the projectile must terminate (whether it's terminating on a wall, enemy, or because the range ended) within a small radius of the grass that needs to be cut. This means that any grass that's not next to a permanent barrier that can block shots on at least one side requires the knight to backup and try several times to get their shots to terminate right above the grass that needs to be cut.
Also I noticed that dead monsters act like obstacles to shots, players, and enemies. There's some upsides, downsides, and logical sides to this. Logic says that if the enemy hasn't disappeared from the screen yet that it should still have a physical existence. The upside to having the enemies stay solid after death is that they also block the enemy. The down side is that it blocks you. This is a problem for gunners because shots can't hit more than one monster. The dead enemy basically becomes a temporary impassable barrier on the field until it decides to go poof. In the case where you kill a tree in a long narrow path it can effectively stall the fight several seconds. With a sword and a smaller enemy (like a devilite) the sword user might be able to still reach the other monsters over the dead body, but not so for gun users. You can't shoot over the dead, you have to walk around them to fire. I think gameplay would be smoother and less annoying if monsters became intangible right when their HP runs out and not when their death animation finishes.
I also took note that a lot of my shots with any gun I was using weren't hitting anything that was in motion. This was most notable with my blackhawk on wolvers and kats. The shots seemed to terminate on the enemy, but no damage numbers would appear. When this happened with my firotech alchemer the shots would never catch the enemy on fire either (might be probability though). I'm not sure if this is lag or if there's legitimately a problem here. It'd probably take more data to know this one for sure.
[mid-post rant]
It really feels like gunslingers aren't getting much love from this game. The new content hasn't done anything to help us either. First was a patch fixing swords and giving swordsmen a new weapon; then there's a new boss which gives both swordsmen and bombers a new weapon. Where's the new gun? If guns were meant to be only side arms to be used in combination with a sword or a bomb then why is there gunslinger armor?
[/mid-post rant]
Needle Shot
summary: Why does the CHARGE SHOT have LESS RANGE than the normal shots?
With the guns I've used the charge shot either gives about the same range or extends the range of the projectile so why is it that only the needle shot gets a shortened charge shot?
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 03:29
#45
Njthug - What's your IGN?
Njthug - What's your IGN? Would you mind terribly if I could observe the firing difference in the training room?
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:56
#46
Stuff
Antigua Line
Summary: Does not scale well
The antigua line is my favorite weapon line in the entire game, so I've used them enough to know all the inherent problems with them (I have capped Argent/Sentenza). The problem with the line is that it is for solo play and scales very badly for party play. In a solo, 5* antigua can take out most enemies in a clip + 1-2 shots. In a full party, you're looking at 3-4 clips just to finish off a single mob, unless of course you're supporting a sword user (though they can do the same thing in half the time with any sword). And while all swords and bombs have actual aoe, antigua only has pseudo-aoe, as in, you can hit at least 2 mobs with the end of a shot if they are close enough together. The line does not need status effects, it would be too powerful. It also doesn't need aoe (though ricocheting bullets like the alchemer line would certainly help, and look really cool). It just needs a bit of a damage boost or better scaling for party play to compete with the other guns.
I can think of a couple of ways to make the weapon more scalable. One way would be to change the entire line to pure damage. Mega Magnus is already a pure piercing line, so Silversix/Argent could be elemental , and cap out around halfway or so. Same thing for Blackhawk/Sentenza, except it would be pure shadow. Yes the guns would be rather quick dps, but balanced out by the fact that they are still relatively single-target weapons. Another way would perhaps be a chance for richochet bullets. Not like 5* alchemers, just a single ricochet, maybe two, at 5* antigua would improve damage just enough without having to raise base damage.
Other Suggestions
1) Guns are the only weapon type that lack a poison inflicter. This can easily be remedied by adding a new alchemer similar to the others (for simplicity), or for fun, a new appropriate weapon (maybe a poison dart crossbow or something? could be an additional piercing damage gun too, with a similar firing speed to magnus, but without the stun effect).
2) The "hold-still" mechanism of certain guns (magnus, autogun...etc) is no good, it defeats the purpose of using guns for mobility. There are already several issues with these kinds of guns in that clip size is tiny, and if you miss (and you WILL MISS a lot when swords/bombs are hitting the same target), then you contribute very little in the long run. I love my capped callahan as much as the next guy, but I don't use it because I find the gun mechanics to be bad.
3) As far as dodging mechanics go, the only monster I think needs toning down are devilite overtimers (spaz super dodge). Other monsters are fine. We don't want to take away ALL the challenge do we?
And that's all I can think of right now.
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:59
#47
Ign: Njthug
Ign: Njthug
Tue, 06/07/2011 - 06:34
#48
Handguns and me
Hi there,
New SK player here, longtime MMO player.
I started this game with being a fulltime Gunner in mind and that still has not changed. However i feel that Handguns have been left out in many ways, some oversights, some intentional, some unintentional. Sadly as im not a Veteran i dont quite know which catagory to put these in.
The first thing i noticed was that damage was significantly less than that of other weapon types. Bombs do bulk AoE, take longer to fire. Sword users do damage through combo's and take the brunt of hits in being up close.
My initial thought which was disproved after doing some forum searches was that guns would be the typical "ranged, single target, DPS class." Sadly i cant see any other role that guns could currently fit into other than "Support" or "Status affliction".
I'm to the point where i've spent my first bundle crowns on a Blaster (heat level 5 currently), and ive decided that my Proto Sword is slightly better at heat level 10. What concerns me is that a blaster is a 2* gun and the Proto Sword should be little better than a butter knife by comparison being a 0*.
There also seems to be general disdain for handguns in general from the game itself. Snarbolax tokens can award Swords, Shields and bombs. Where's the gun? No Spine shooting handgun? its not like guns are overpowered and can afford to be missing out. The highest tier guns do pitiful damage in the depths of the Clockworks im told, theres no real incentive to BE a Gunner aside from challenging yourself. But is it challenging? or just being stubborn like i am to prove it all wrong.
Now enough of my thoughts and onto what i think could make guns even slightly better.
Clip size:
By god this would help. Single shot? Three-shooter? Six-Shooter? Full auto? Burst fire? Infinate ammo? What am i about to buy and how many shots do i have left before reloading.
Reloading:
This seems to be a common gripe from what i have seen (read?), needs to either have items to speed it up (trinkets? UV?) or buffed as a whole to be quicker. On the note of buffing it, even a larger "clip size" could make reloads less crippling.
Charge shots:
I have never, aside from just before standing on a "Party Button", used a charge shot in battle. The few times i have, i've either been interrupted due to the standstill required to fire thus requiring a re-charge. Or missed.
What should be ADDED?
Critical hits:
Shooting or gunning should be about aiming for that all important weak point that a thrown bomb misses or a swordsman cant quite reach. Gunners should have the ability to critical hit occasionally, charge shots should BE critical hits if anything due to the charge times, standstill times and execution times.
Now due to me being a noob, if anyone can explain anything im bringing up to me as i am a new player. Please do, however bear in mind this is still my first impression of gunners in this game. I do not hate this game, in fact ive already bought some CE.
Ok i think im done!
Tue, 06/07/2011 - 14:23
#49
@LewisM I agree that
@LewisM I agree that critical hits would be an interesting extra mechanic, although technically we already have critical hits in the form of weaknesses. Honestly, with the prevalence of Normal/Whatever in swords lately, I'm kinda surprised they didn't take that to the next logical step. If all swords were normal/whatever, guns could be placed slightly under their damage, but given full elemental/Piercing/Shadow damage, that would boost their single target damage above a sword. With that, gunslingers would be far more focused on having the right gun at the right time, as opposed to the sword wielder who can basically have whatever and still be okay. Of course, the flourish basically scraps that idea ATM, but if the players didn't mind it being adjusted to normal/piercing for the sake of gun balancing, it might still be a possibility.
Now that I think of it, if gunslingers were given a +Critical Damage to Guns UV on their armor, it could raise their attack damage to respectable amounts while still leaving non-gunslingers at their current power level. The only question is whether it would have to be added in on top of IAS already there, and if that would mean they'd still lack resistances :P
Really, I seriously like the idea of gunners being focused, weakness hunters.
Wed, 06/08/2011 - 18:19
#50
Just in case there's strength in numbers...
Magnus:
Summary: Stops user from moving + slow reload time.
While this weakness is OK for sword / gun users, pure gun users like myself have a very hard time coping. For example, Since we only fire 2 bullets with magnus and callahan, the faster shooting time provided by Nameless set is almost useless. Instead, faster reload time would be a critical improvement for this gun. Rather than fixing guns, fixing our line of armor would be better. The simplist solution is to have Increase Gun Firing Rate (on the Nameless Set) also speed up reload time. Increased damage (more than low) would also be a feasible solution (for the other gunslinger sets).
Why fix Gunslinger line of armor and not the guns? 1. Its way easier to do since you guys only need to make 1 change. 2. Well for most sword users, guns are fine the way they are, they are tools you use to kite when low on health but still want to help the party. I don't think many sword users would choose the Magnus line. Gunners on the other hand MUST use a heavy dmg gun (such as the magnus lune) or be pure status effect and support. 3. Fixing our armor makes sense considering they are severely underpowered compared to vog cub (we get no status resist other than curse).
OtherFixes:
1. Increase Clip Size: The only way to enjoy faster shooting times, is to actually be able to shoot. Guns with 2 clips should be increased to 3. and 3 - 4 etc.
2. Attack Speed Increase should improve reload time.
3. Low dmg increase should be changed to medium. Guns do low enough dmg as it is.
2. Since guns fire energy, and not real bullets, "reload time" flavor text should be changed to "cooldown time"
One more thing: should you want to offer a counterpoint to an issue another player brings up, feel free to do so, discuss, etc. But for bringing up a new issue, we would appreciate the format outlined above. Thanks!